We're excited to present a great new set of boards to classic movie fans with tons of new features, stability, and performance.

If you’re new to the message boards, please “Register” to get started. If you want to learn more about the new boards, visit our FAQ.

Register

If you're a returning member, start by resetting your password to claim your old display name using your email address.

Re-Register

Thanks for your continued support of the TCM Message Boards.

X

Kyle Kersten was a true friend of TCM. One of the first and most active participants of the Message Boards, “Kyle in Hollywood” (aka, hlywdkjk) demonstrated a depth of knowledge and largesse of spirit that made him one of the most popular and respected voices in these forums. This thread is a living memorial to his life and love of movies, which remain with us still.

X

Jump to content


Photo

Future of Democratic Party?

What do Democrats need to do.

  • Please log in to reply
589 replies to this topic

#41 TheCid

TheCid

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,727 posts
  • LocationSouth Carolina

Posted 31 July 2017 - 04:42 PM

I recommend those for single payer (or a Swiss type system) just admit these systems ARE socialism.    E.g.  for such a system to work,  medical providers (physicians, hospitals, therapist,  etc...),  would have to be subject to price controls (I.e. a medical fee schedule that sets reimbursements like with Medicare).    This has been the case in the Workers Comp system since CA (yea,  that state again),  introduced a fixed priced fee schedule in 1969.   The WC market place is a socialist system. 

 

I don't wish to get into a discussion about what is socialism,  but even those that wouldn't define the above as socialism have to admit these closed-systems are NOT capitalism and as you note,  that would be the main objection by conservatives, independents and maybe even folks like Pelosi (based on her put down of a Sanders supporters where the first thing that came out of her mouth was 'we are capitalist').

Workers Comp is fairly small when compared to health care for everyone.  Assume that CA is like most states, there is medical treatment for a while, then a cash settlement and then case is closed.  Also, the care is provided due to an accident or similar event, not routine care.

If we want to allude to socialist health care, more accurate would be VA, military retirees and dependents and possibly health care provided for government employees.  Veterans and military retirees earned their care, but they do not pay for it.  Government employees may pay something, but fairly small compared to overall costs.

Of course, Medicaid is pure "socialism."



#42 Bogie56

Bogie56

    Prof. Knucklehead

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 11,073 posts
  • LocationTralfamadore

Posted 31 July 2017 - 02:37 PM

I recommend those for single payer (or a Swiss type system) just admit these systems ARE socialism.    E.g.  for such a system to work,  medical providers (physicians, hospitals, therapist,  etc...),  would have to be subject to price controls (I.e. a medical fee schedule that sets reimbursements like with Medicare).    This has been the case in the Workers Comp system since CA (yea,  that state again),  introduced a fixed priced fee schedule in 1969.   The WC market place is a socialist system. 

 

I don't wish to get into a discussion about what is socialism,  but even those that wouldn't define the above as socialism have to admit these closed-systems are NOT capitalism and as you note,  that would be the main objection by conservatives, independents and maybe even folks like Pelosi (based on her put down of a Sanders supporters where the first thing that came out of her mouth was 'we are capitalist').

 

And Pelosi like many others has taken money from the health industry lobbyists.  Hey, the fire departments and public libraries are socialism at work too and people have grown accustomed to paying for them with their taxes.  Universal health protection for all should be provided too IMO.  It is ridiculous that people pay insurance companies thousands of dollars and have high deductibles.  Everyone get in the pool and the healthy help offset the sick.  Canada is a much poorer country and I pay several hundred - hundred - dollars per year in tax for health coverage and the facilities here are top notch.

And you can still own private health insurance or group through businesses or unions which goes toward drug costs, dental or better rooms in the hospital which is usually not covered with basic.  But because it is a top up and much rarer to use that too is cheaper I am sure.

But I'm far from an expert on this subject.   I just like not every having to worry about paying for it.


  • mr6666 likes this

#43 jamesjazzguitar

jamesjazzguitar

    There is nothing as bad as something not so bad

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 18,237 posts
  • LocationCalifornia

Posted 31 July 2017 - 01:55 PM

That is one aspect I consider risky.  The Democratic base would approve of it (maybe), but the people who vote Republican and "independent" would vote against that one issue alone.  They are scared of it because they do not understand it - and probably never will.  They are the ones who put Trump and the Republicans in charge of the country and most of the states.

"Single payer health care" means socialism, communism and every other ism that scares middle America, the middle class, small businesses and the working class.

Hillary went big on it during Bill's term and really went home quick.

Obama and Democrats went fairly big on getting it started - and lots of them went home.

 

I recommend those for single payer (or a Swiss type system) just admit these systems ARE socialism.    E.g.  for such a system to work,  medical providers (physicians, hospitals, therapist,  etc...),  would have to be subject to price controls (I.e. a medical fee schedule that sets reimbursements like with Medicare).    This has been the case in the Workers Comp system since CA (yea,  that state again),  introduced a fixed priced fee schedule in 1969.   The WC market place is a socialist system. 

 

I don't wish to get into a discussion about what is socialism,  but even those that wouldn't define the above as socialism have to admit these closed-systems are NOT capitalism and as you note,  that would be the main objection by conservatives, independents and maybe even folks like Pelosi (based on her put down of a Sanders supporters where the first thing that came out of her mouth was 'we are capitalist').



#44 TheCid

TheCid

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,727 posts
  • LocationSouth Carolina

Posted 31 July 2017 - 11:12 AM

Sanders Showed Values Matter, But Democrats Continue to Focus on Tactics and Gimmicks-

 

"....Bernie Sanders—the most popular politician in America—simply says what he means, and he operates from a frame of reference defined by values. No equivocating.  No vague slogans. No carefully constructed, poll-tested phrasing. And he funded his campaign "thirty-seven dollahs" at a time from small donors.  He actively fights for a progressive economic agenda that tackles income inequality, creates jobs, raises wages, protects the environment and provides health care for all.  He openly advocates campaign finance reform.  He specifically calls out the power brokers in the oligarchy for their control of our elections and our media.....

 

If Democrats don't figure out that they need to adopt and back a values-driven agenda, not simply spout slogans, the people will see through it,....

 

Rather than aiming to get the few old white men back into the fold, Democrats should be wooing the largest block of voters – the 40 to 45 percent who stay home – to show up.  The young, who overwhelmingly voted for Sanders, are the biggest source of votes and the key to a Democratic victory in 2018 and 2020.

 

But to appeal to them, Democrats would need to go beyond tactics, gimmicks and slogans, and embrace a real progressive and populist stance, something the neoliberals controlling the party are loath to do.

 

And so we get slogans."

 

https://www.commondr...e=socialnetwork

 

<_<

 

And where were these young people when Trump won the election and the Republicans gained control of Congress and 2/3's of state governments?  NOT voting.  Sitting on their rear ends whining. 

Sanders campaign was filled with "slogans" to attract the young, but no meat.  Much less rationale and realistic ways to deliver the promises and pay for them.

While it will be beneficial to attract the young voters, it is meaningless if you lose the other voters necessary to winning elections.

The Democrats have always backed a values driven agenda, but not necessarily the ones that will offend the majority of people who actually show up to vote in elections.


  • jamesjazzguitar likes this

#45 darkblue

darkblue

    child of vision

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 14,765 posts

Posted 30 July 2017 - 07:29 PM


White Knights, Manginas and Simps, oh my!

#46 mr6666

mr6666

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 19,376 posts

Posted 25 July 2017 - 04:43 PM

Sanders Showed Values Matter, But Democrats Continue to Focus on Tactics and Gimmicks-

 

"....Bernie Sanders—the most popular politician in America—simply says what he means, and he operates from a frame of reference defined by values. No equivocating.  No vague slogans. No carefully constructed, poll-tested phrasing. And he funded his campaign "thirty-seven dollahs" at a time from small donors.  He actively fights for a progressive economic agenda that tackles income inequality, creates jobs, raises wages, protects the environment and provides health care for all.  He openly advocates campaign finance reform.  He specifically calls out the power brokers in the oligarchy for their control of our elections and our media.....

 

If Democrats don't figure out that they need to adopt and back a values-driven agenda, not simply spout slogans, the people will see through it,....

 

Rather than aiming to get the few old white men back into the fold, Democrats should be wooing the largest block of voters – the 40 to 45 percent who stay home – to show up.  The young, who overwhelmingly voted for Sanders, are the biggest source of votes and the key to a Democratic victory in 2018 and 2020.

 

But to appeal to them, Democrats would need to go beyond tactics, gimmicks and slogans, and embrace a real progressive and populist stance, something the neoliberals controlling the party are loath to do.

 

And so we get slogans."

 

https://www.commondr...e=socialnetwork

 

<_<


  • darkblue likes this

"A small elephant is not a rabbit."


#47 TheCid

TheCid

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,727 posts
  • LocationSouth Carolina

Posted 25 July 2017 - 04:25 PM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Why not propose some version of truly universal single-payer health care?

 

Yes, that would be risky. But it might generate real excitement among the Democratic base — and also grab the attention of some of the GOP’s working-class supporters. Incrementalism is not the answer. Democrats need to go big or go home."

 

https://www.washingt...m=.5d5235cf79ce

 

Moyers & others have mentioned such ideas before

;)

That is one aspect I consider risky.  The Democratic base would approve of it (maybe), but the people who vote Republican and "independent" would vote against that one issue alone.  They are scared of it because they do not understand it - and probably never will.  They are the ones who put Trump and the Republicans in charge of the country and most of the states.

"Single payer health care" means socialism, communism and every other ism that scares middle America, the middle class, small businesses and the working class.

Hillary went big on it during Bill's term and really went home quick.

Obama and Democrats went fairly big on getting it started - and lots of them went home.



#48 TheCid

TheCid

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,727 posts
  • LocationSouth Carolina

Posted 25 July 2017 - 04:19 PM

Exactly.  And once the people have this it will be political suicide for any party to repeal it.  The conservatives don't attack the health care systems in Canada or Europe for that reason.

Think of the money people will save on insurance and some of that can go toward taxes.

This is not Canada or Europe and the VOTERS don't think the same.  That's why US conservatives (and the people who vote for them) are so much worse than" your" conservatives.



#49 Bogie56

Bogie56

    Prof. Knucklehead

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 11,073 posts
  • LocationTralfamadore

Posted 25 July 2017 - 03:55 PM

If you can't get elected and can't get a majority, you can't do any thing.

 

Below seems to be a balanced article of the "Better Deal."

www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/07/24/with-better-deal-democrats-temporarily-calm-a-restive-left/?utm_term=.00a9eba6f784&wpisrc=nl_politics&wpmm=1

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Why not propose some version of truly universal single-payer health care?

 

Yes, that would be risky. But it might generate real excitement among the Democratic base — and also grab the attention of some of the GOP’s working-class supporters. Incrementalism is not the answer. Democrats need to go big or go home."

 

https://www.washingt...m=.5d5235cf79ce

 

Moyers & others have mentioned such ideas before

;)

 

Exactly.  And once the people have this it will be political suicide for any party to repeal it.  The conservatives don't attack the health care systems in Canada or Europe for that reason.

Think of the money people will save on insurance and some of that can go toward taxes.



#50 mr6666

mr6666

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 19,376 posts

Posted 25 July 2017 - 03:30 PM


 

 

If you can't get elected and can't get a majority, you can't do any thing.

 

Below seems to be a balanced article of the "Better Deal."

www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/07/24/with-better-deal-democrats-temporarily-calm-a-restive-left/?utm_term=.00a9eba6f784&wpisrc=nl_politics&wpmm=1

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Why not propose some version of truly universal single-payer health care?

 

Yes, that would be risky. But it might generate real excitement among the Democratic base — and also grab the attention of some of the GOP’s working-class supporters. Incrementalism is not the answer. Democrats need to go big or go home."

 

https://www.washingt...m=.5d5235cf79ce

 

Moyers & others have mentioned such ideas before

;)


  • Bogie56 likes this

"A small elephant is not a rabbit."


#51 Vautrin

Vautrin

    Quel siecle a mains!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9,408 posts
  • LocationNorth Carolina

Posted 25 July 2017 - 03:15 PM

I wouldn't worry very much about the Dems. Both parties

have their bad spells, but both always come back. That's

politics. 


Curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid get.


#52 darkblue

darkblue

    child of vision

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 14,765 posts

Posted 25 July 2017 - 10:45 AM

"They are leaning heavily on a re-branding of their greatest hits — more and better-paying jobs, lowering health care costs and cracking down on the what are seen as the abuses of big business.

 

They've never provided any of those things before. Why would anyone be fooled into thinking they mean it this time?

 

Bernie Sanders is all they've got that'll get them back in - otherwise they're toast.


White Knights, Manginas and Simps, oh my!

#53 darkblue

darkblue

    child of vision

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 14,765 posts

Posted 25 July 2017 - 10:42 AM

BERRYVILLE, VA. — Congressional Democratic leaders descended upon this rural Virginia town Monday to unveil a progressive economic package they say can win back working-class voters next November, even in red states.

And noticeably missing, amid the talk of raising wages and reining in corporate interests, were the left-leaning stances on social issues that help form the backbone of the party, including immigration, abortion and LGBT rights.........

 

".........The streamlined economic focus, if successful, offers a dual benefit for Democrats:

First, it could appeal to center-right voters who may be open to Democrats’ populist economic pitch but turned off by their liberal social plank.

Second, by focusing on creating jobs and increasing wages, Democrats can avoid, at least for now, some of the tough family conversations on issues like abortion and immigration that have lately magnified simmering party divisions......

 

http://www.politico....virginia-240905

 

:wacko:

 

Just more of talking like Republicans - hoping the voters will be fooled enough to not vote for real Republicans.

 

Democrats are dead in the water unless they start talking like Bernie Sanders.


White Knights, Manginas and Simps, oh my!

#54 TheCid

TheCid

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5,727 posts
  • LocationSouth Carolina

Posted 25 July 2017 - 08:00 AM

Everything That’s Wrong with the Democratic ‘Reboot’-

 

"....The bulk of Schumer’s op-ed focuses on small policy changes that would help working people, while also promising more dinky policy proposals to come — but then concludes that the Democrats lack the power to actually enact any of this......

 

We need a Democratic Party that fights for all of us, and recognizes that the biggest threat in our lives comes from concentrated wealth and runaway corporate power over the economy, government and our political parties. Yes, the Democratic Party must resolve to put its own house in order.

 

We demand a Democratic Party that stands for human rights for all. And that fights against divide-and-conquer politics, showing the “white working class” that they have much more to fear from the greedy rich than from those of us the right loves to trash.

 

We insist on a Democratic Party that cares about the world we live in today and the planet we will leave our children. Nothing else matters if the climate collapses."

 

 

 

No matter how good this may sound, it is merely a repeat of major reasons why Dems. lost in 2016.  Emphasizing these aspects ignores the concerns of too many VOTERS. Hillary was a poor candidate and she and the campaign were disjointed, but the things they emphasized are same ones that Moyers wants repeated - and they lost.

It appears that a lot of what the Progressives, Bernie Sanders and other leftist want is included in the plan.

However, they really need to push jobs and how to create them.  Or at least convince the voters that's what they will do - Trump did, even though he lied.

Biggest problem is that nobody was listening.  Kushner, Russia, Trump, Sessions, etc. ate up all the news outlets.

 

If you can't get elected and can't get a majority, you can't do any thing.

 

Below seems to be a balanced article of the "Better Deal."

www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/07/24/with-better-deal-democrats-temporarily-calm-a-restive-left/?utm_term=.00a9eba6f784&wpisrc=nl_politics&wpmm=1



#55 Bogie56

Bogie56

    Prof. Knucklehead

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 11,073 posts
  • LocationTralfamadore

Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:02 PM

two points. they took the white working class for granted too long and most people know it is just plain lunacy to say climate change is a greater threat than jihadist berserker terrorists.

 

can the climate set off a nuclear dirty bomb in our major population centers? no, but the berserker jihadists will. the democrats must make sense, not spout sesame street jabberwocky. :P

 

Yes it isn't favouring the democrats to not be pandering to the idiots in America that Trump managed to capture.



#56 NipkowDisc

NipkowDisc

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 11,834 posts
  • Locationzaygon hegemony

Posted 24 July 2017 - 08:52 PM

Everything That’s Wrong with the Democratic ‘Reboot’-

 

"....The bulk of Schumer’s op-ed focuses on small policy changes that would help working people, while also promising more dinky policy proposals to come — but then concludes that the Democrats lack the power to actually enact any of this......

 

We need a Democratic Party that fights for all of us, and recognizes that the biggest threat in our lives comes from concentrated wealth and runaway corporate power over the economy, government and our political parties. Yes, the Democratic Party must resolve to put its own house in order.

 

We demand a Democratic Party that stands for human rights for all. And that fights against divide-and-conquer politics, showing the “white working class” that they have much more to fear from the greedy rich than from those of us the right loves to trash.

 

We insist on a Democratic Party that cares about the world we live in today and the planet we will leave our children. Nothing else matters if the climate collapses."

 

http://billmoyers.co...ne-lousy-op-ed/

 

:)

 

two points. they took the white working class for granted too long and most people know it is just plain lunacy to say climate change is a greater threat than jihadist berserker terrorists.

 

can the climate set off a nuclear dirty bomb in our major population centers? no, but the berserker jihadists will. the democrats must make sense, not spout sesame street jabberwocky. :P


"okay, so we're moving right along, folks" -al pacino, dog day afternoon


#57 mr6666

mr6666

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 19,376 posts

Posted 24 July 2017 - 08:45 PM

Everything That’s Wrong with the Democratic ‘Reboot’-

 

"....The bulk of Schumer’s op-ed focuses on small policy changes that would help working people, while also promising more dinky policy proposals to come — but then concludes that the Democrats lack the power to actually enact any of this......

 

We need a Democratic Party that fights for all of us, and recognizes that the biggest threat in our lives comes from concentrated wealth and runaway corporate power over the economy, government and our political parties. Yes, the Democratic Party must resolve to put its own house in order.

 

We demand a Democratic Party that stands for human rights for all. And that fights against divide-and-conquer politics, showing the “white working class” that they have much more to fear from the greedy rich than from those of us the right loves to trash.

 

We insist on a Democratic Party that cares about the world we live in today and the planet we will leave our children. Nothing else matters if the climate collapses."

 

http://billmoyers.co...ne-lousy-op-ed/

 

:)


  • Bogie56 likes this

"A small elephant is not a rabbit."


#58 NipkowDisc

NipkowDisc

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 11,834 posts
  • Locationzaygon hegemony

Posted 24 July 2017 - 08:34 PM

why is schumer all of a sudden talking single payer?

 

some of his people are getting scared that the senate GOP might pass something.

 

with an arrogant schtootz like schumer at their helm, it's getting more and more likely. :)


"okay, so we're moving right along, folks" -al pacino, dog day afternoon


#59 NipkowDisc

NipkowDisc

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 11,834 posts
  • Locationzaygon hegemony

Posted 24 July 2017 - 08:31 PM

 "When you lose an election with someone who has, say, 40 percent popularity, you look in the mirror and say what did we do wrong?" Schumer said, speaking on ABC's This Week Sunday. "And the No. 1 thing that we did wrong is ... we didn't tell people what we stood for.".........

 

yes they did...HILLARY! :lol: 


"okay, so we're moving right along, folks" -al pacino, dog day afternoon


#60 mr6666

mr6666

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 19,376 posts

Posted 24 July 2017 - 08:28 PM

"They are leaning heavily on a re-branding of their greatest hits — more and better-paying jobs, lowering health care costs and cracking down on the what are seen as the abuses of big business.

 

As an agenda and a slogan, "A Better Deal," hearkens back to the days of President Franklin Roosevelt.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer went 50 miles outside the Beltway, to Berryville, Va., to unveil it, hoping the ideas will resonate with suburban voters, many of whom were energized by Trump's campaign-trail populism.

 

"When you lose an election with someone who has, say, 40 percent popularity, you look in the mirror and say what did we do wrong?" Schumer said, speaking on ABC's This Week Sunday. "And the No. 1 thing that we did wrong is ... we didn't tell people what we stood for.".........

 

http://www.npr.org/2...ontent=20170724

 

 


  • TheCid likes this

"A small elephant is not a rabbit."





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users