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Kyle Kersten was a true friend of TCM. One of the first and most active participants of the Message Boards, “Kyle in Hollywood” (aka, hlywdkjk) demonstrated a depth of knowledge and largesse of spirit that made him one of the most popular and respected voices in these forums. This thread is a living memorial to his life and love of movies, which remain with us still.

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Bette and Joan


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371 replies to this topic

#1 LornaHansonForbes

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Posted Today, 10:49 AM

Jeez, Lorna, with that review, your new avatar really fits.  ;)

 

A blast of wind...

     to fan my hate.


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#2 LawrenceA

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Posted Today, 10:27 AM

Jeez, Lorna, with that review, your new avatar really fits.  ;)



#3 LornaHansonForbes

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Posted Today, 09:59 AM

all right.

 

i started watching episode three and i got to the scene where Bette and CRAWFORD are having it out on the set over the latter's backdoor suggestion to Hedda Hopper that Davis would take a supporting nomination for BABY JANE (yeah, right.)

 

in lieu of actual fluid, back and forth or complicated dialogue, the writers of this tripe are having the two of them recite trivia, and trivia that I really doubt either one of them would've known (do you really think Joan remembered on the spot that Judy Holliday won in 1950? and "Miss Judy Holliday" at that- what are you Blanche Deveraux?)

 

Lange is not giving me CRAWFORD; Sarandon stumbled all over last night's episode- she only periodically remembers she's supposed to be Bette and starts clipping her words and waving the cigarette in the air.

 

it's not working.

 

it CLUNKS.

 

there's not a genuine moment in this thing; well, maybe that's not a fair criticism because this is about HOLLYWOOD, how's this: it's a fifth grade book report, a well-produced wiki entry, a needlessly superficial and forced affair that really hasn't been any fun at all.


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#4 Princess of Tap

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Posted Yesterday, 12:39 PM

Imagine if Peter Lawford had played the role as originally planned....then they could depict Bette doing something really heroic, like saving Marilyn Monroe......


Peter Lawford did co-star later with Bette Davis in a movie called Dead Ringer.

Save somebody else - - he couldn't even save himself. He was "eaten" by a Great Dane.

But talk about movie star dramatizations--Lawford acquitted himself very well as Paul Bern in the Carroll Baker- Jean Harlow movie.

#5 RoyCronin

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Posted Yesterday, 09:29 AM

Imagine if Peter Lawford had played the role as originally planned....then they could depict Bette doing something really heroic, like saving Marilyn Monroe......

#6 DougieB

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Posted Yesterday, 09:01 AM

They didn't have to show him on his knees. I guess the whole thing was put in to show the sweet, caring side of Bette.

Right. They could have shown him following the guy into the building and then being dragged out by the police and we would have gotten the picture, if the whole point of it was to show Bette going to his rescue. But it still doesn't answer the question of whether an arrest of any kind even happened. I began watching the series because I have a genuine interest in these two stars in particular and in Hollywood history in general. The more unsubstantiated stuff that creeps in, the more we're left to wonder about other things which are being represented. I've read the major bios of both stars but I certainly don't feel like an authority; I'm relying on Ryan Murphy to tell a good story but also to tell a (reasonably) true story. Unless he's in possession of real facts and records, or even creditable second-hand information, throwing in "fun" stuff like a Victor Buono b j isn't going to help.


"When Fortuna spins you downward, go out to a movie and get more out of life."...Ignatious J. Reilly, A Confederacy of Dunces


#7 Swithin

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 12:57 PM

Respectfully? Buono on his knees? That really wasnt necessary. I'm not a prude, but I thought the whole thing was tacky and needlessly sleazy............

 

 

If someone can produce an arrest record, ok then. But I doubt one exists (at least as to what was portrayed in the series)....

 

They didn't have to show him on his knees. I guess the whole thing was put in to show the sweet, caring side of Bette.



#8 Hibi

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 09:21 AM

"In those days", a gay man could be arrested for just having gay pornography.

"In those days", they tried to arrest Lena Horne and her white husband in the south after one of her concerts,but she was warned and fled the scene.

And " in those days", black people were arrested for sitting in a Woolworths in the South asking for a cup of coffee and they were arrested for sitting in the whites-only waiting room at a bus station.

"In those days", people were arrested for just being normal or doing things that we would call normal today.

It's always a good idea that we remember this, so that we don't have to go back to "in those days"--anytime soon.

 

 

That's for sure!



#9 Princess of Tap

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 05:19 PM

That probably could be proven by going through arrest records. I just don't see the reason to now show it. Just like that old mug shot of Frank Sinatra floating around the net. If someone was motivated, that could be found.

The code no longer exists. There is no shame in the scene. Nothing to defend.

Those sorts of things happened then and now. Its a part of life. Out of sight, out of mind really doesn't work anymore. I thought it was done respectfully, nothing explicit.


"In those days", a gay man could be arrested for just having gay pornography.

"In those days", they tried to arrest Lena Horne and her white husband in the south after one of her concerts,but she was warned and fled the scene.

And " in those days", black people were arrested for sitting in a Woolworths in the South asking for a cup of coffee and they were arrested for sitting in the whites-only waiting room at a bus station.

"In those days", people were arrested for just being normal or doing things that we would call normal today.

It's always a good idea that we remember this, so that we don't have to go back to "in those days"--anytime soon.
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#10 Hibi

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 04:42 PM

That probably could be proven by going through arrest records. I just don't see the reason to now show it.  Just like that old mug shot of Frank Sinatra floating around the net. If someone was motivated, that could be found. 

 

The code no longer exists. There is no shame in the scene. Nothing to defend.

 

Those sorts of things happened then and now. Its a part of life. Out of sight, out of mind really doesn't work anymore. I thought it was done respectfully, nothing explicit.

 

Respectfully? Buono on his knees? That really wasnt necessary. I'm not a prude, but I thought the whole thing was tacky and needlessly sleazy............

 

 

If someone can produce an arrest record, ok then. But I doubt one exists (at least as to what was portrayed in the series)....



#11 CinemaInternational

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 03:11 PM

Regarding Buono, a DVD commentary on Hush Hush Sweet Charlotte said he was a playboy. Take from that what you wish.
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#12 GGGGerald

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 02:09 PM

Who's to say it did happen? And Buono isnt around to defend himself. If they were using some nameless actor, I'd be ok w/it......tacky, but people do misbehave.

 

That probably could be proven by going through arrest records. I just don't see the reason to now show it.  Just like that old mug shot of Frank Sinatra floating around the net. If someone was motivated, that could be found. 

 

The code no longer exists. There is no shame in the scene. Nothing to defend.

 

Those sorts of things happened then and now. Its a part of life. Out of sight, out of mind really doesn't work anymore. I thought it was done respectfully, nothing explicit.


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#13 Hibi

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:54 PM

This series not only shines a light on how women were treated in Hollywood. But, also how gay people were treated in general.And the lengths they had to go to associate with each other.

 

I think in 2017, I think only the police look bad bothering these people. I see nothing libelous at all. And if it did happen, it would be good to show because it definitely would have affected the box office in those days. 

 

 

 

 

It will cause young people to dig deeper for the truth. Nothing wrong with an interesting series to introduce classic film to those who might have been interested but, didn't know where to begin. 

 

 

And Greek mosaics made centuries before. Some depicting scenes I still can't describe here.

 

 

Who's to say it did happen? And Buono isnt around to defend himself. If they were using some nameless actor, I'd be ok w/it......tacky, but people do misbehave.



#14 Dargo

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:50 PM

You should read about how archaeologists were surprised by the amount of graffiti found in ancient Roman ruins, and almost all of it was pornographic. Rome at its height had crudely drawn paintings of the male anatomy everywhere. Which would have made a lot of those 50's and 60's epics much funnier if they'd stuck to the historical truth.

 

In the late-'70s when my parents visited Pompeii Italy while on a tour of Europe, they were allowed into the "secret cabinet"...

 

 https://en.wikipedia...and_Herculaneum

 

(...they said they found it quite fascinating)



#15 GGGGerald

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:20 PM

Did it actually happen? I thought it was very tacky. And if they just made it up even more so. I dont ever remember reading about that (though I guess it could've been hushed up) Lots of stuff in this series didnt happen or is just speculation......

 

That stuff with Buono, if untrue, certainly would be. I've yet to read that incident really happened. And if it did was in poor taste to show it so graphically. Hollywood Bablyon stuff (and his books were very inaccurate and stories that werent always true)........

 

What theater in 1962 existed that would show those kind of movies?????

 

This series not only shines a light on how women were treated in Hollywood. But, also how gay people were treated in general.And the lengths they had to go to associate with each other.

 

I think in 2017, I think only the police look bad bothering these people. I see nothing libelous at all. And if it did happen, it would be good to show because it definitely would have affected the box office in those days. 

 

 

 

This is a terrific dramatic representation. I think if you want the truth you need to see a documentary of Hollywood.

So now young people get all of their historical Knowledge from FX. I'm going to give young people more credit than that.

 

It will cause young people to dig deeper for the truth. Nothing wrong with an interesting series to introduce classic film to those who might have been interested but, didn't know where to begin. 

 

You should read about how archaeologists were surprised by the amount of graffiti found in ancient Roman ruins, and almost all of it was pornographic. Rome at its height had crudely drawn paintings of the male anatomy everywhere. Which would have made a lot of those 50's and 60's epics much funnier if they'd stuck to the historical truth.

 

And Greek mosaics made centuries before. Some depicting scenes I still can't describe here.


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#16 Hibi

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:47 AM

fyi copied and pasted from imdb:

 

The house exterior of the Hudson mansion is located at 172 South McCadden Place in the Hancock Park section of Los Angeles. Other residential exteriors show cottages on DeLongpre Ave. near Harvard Ave. in Hollywood without their current gated courtyards. The scene on the beach was shot in Malibu, reportedly the same site where Robert Aldrich filmed the final scene of Kiss Me Deadly (1955).

 

 

Thanks for the info. You were right!



#17 Hibi

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:46 AM

Perhaps she was resting on her laurels:

 

"She was crowned Miss Kansas in 1948 and was the third runner-up in the Miss America contest. When she appeared as a contestant on the April 4, 1951, edition ofYou Bet Your Life described as "a beauty contest winner," Groucho Marx asked her about some of the titles she held. She replied, "I was first Miss Chamber of Commerce and then Miss Wichita and then Miss Kansas and Miss Texas Grapefruit and recently I've been chosen Miss New Maid Margarine and I had the honor to represent Kansas in the Miss America pageant."

 

 

LOL. Wow. Quite a resume!



#18 LornaHansonForbes

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:36 AM

also well worth noting: BABY JANE is now in imdb's TOP 250, it is #249.



#19 LornaHansonForbes

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:30 AM

fyi copied and pasted from imdb:

 

The house exterior of the Hudson mansion is located at 172 South McCadden Place in the Hancock Park section of Los Angeles. Other residential exteriors show cottages on DeLongpre Ave. near Harvard Ave. in Hollywood without their current gated courtyards. The scene on the beach was shot in Malibu, reportedly the same site where Robert Aldrich filmed the final scene of Kiss Me Deadly (1955).



#20 Swithin

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:01 AM

LOL. Yeah, never understood why her career flatlined. She was a good actress. Maybe she was more interested in her family life. She said she had no regrets about dropping out of Vertigo as she resented Hitchcock's interference in her private life.

 

Perhaps she was resting on her laurels:

 

"She was crowned Miss Kansas in 1948 and was the third runner-up in the Miss America contest. When she appeared as a contestant on the April 4, 1951, edition ofYou Bet Your Life described as "a beauty contest winner," Groucho Marx asked her about some of the titles she held. She replied, "I was first Miss Chamber of Commerce and then Miss Wichita and then Miss Kansas and Miss Texas Grapefruit and recently I've been chosen Miss New Maid Margarine and I had the honor to represent Kansas in the Miss America pageant."


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