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Kyle Kersten was a true friend of TCM. One of the first and most active participants of the Message Boards, “Kyle in Hollywood” (aka, hlywdkjk) demonstrated a depth of knowledge and largesse of spirit that made him one of the most popular and respected voices in these forums. This thread is a living memorial to his life and love of movies, which remain with us still.

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Bette and Joan


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#41 Hibi

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 03:44 PM

It's also worth noting that 1962 was one of those rare instances where all five nominees deserved to there** and the actual winner was the person who really was the best (Bancroft.)

 

 

 

**I've never seen DAYS OF WINE AND ROSES (!)

But, Lee Remick was so overdue a nomination at this point

(after WILD RIVER and ANATOMY OF A MURDER) that I ain't gonna argue.

 

I dont think Remick really matched Lemmon in her performance, not that she was bad..........



#42 LornaHansonForbes

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:09 PM

It's also worth noting that 1962 was one of those rare instances where all five nominees deserved to there** and the actual winner was the person who really was the best (Bancroft.)

 

 

 

**I've never seen DAYS OF WINE AND ROSES (!)

But, Lee Remick was so overdue a nomination at this point

(after WILD RIVER and ANATOMY OF A MURDER) that I ain't gonna argue.


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#43 Hibi

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 11:57 AM

there's also the fact that her character sits out most of the third act, which is also a bit of a fault i have with the movie.

 

also also there is the fact that 1962 was just a really great year for movies and a very good year for leading performances by an actress, of the five nominees:

 

Anne Bancroft in THE MIRACLE WORKER

Geraldine Page in SWEET BIRD OF YOUTH

Katharine Hepburn in LONG DAY'S JOURNEY INTO NIGHT

Davis in BABY JANE

and

Lee Remick in THE DAYS OF WINE AND ROSES,

 

there's not a weak performance among that lot, as well as the fact that all five have substantial roles that have them onscreen for the entire running time. i just can't see which of them could be cut to make room for what is ultimately a supporting performance by Joan.

 

 

Yes. It was quite competitive that year in the actress category, and it would've been quite a feat for both actresses to be nominated that year. Joan wouldnt have had an easy go even in the supporting category with Patty Duke and Angela Lansbury. Bette was certainly no shoo in for a win either considering her competition. I think she let herself believe in the press build up, only to be let down at the end.


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#44 Hibi

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 10:36 AM

Bette's last assistant, Kathryn Sermack, has a book coming out in September, "Miss D and Me". I wonder why it took so long after Bette's death, maybe a contractual thing? Maybe the renewed interest in Bette because of the show?

 

 

Interesting. I'm very surprised to hear this. She always declined to be interviewed in books about Bette. She must have changed her mind. I'm curious what she'll have to say.....



#45 Arturo

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 09:52 AM

I agree that last night's episode was poignant and sad. It was a very fitting finale I thought, humanizing these two iconic actresses. Everybody rose to the occasion. I got emotional in a couple of instances. I am sorry to see it end.
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#46 LornaHansonForbes

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 08:36 AM

I watched most of Baby Jane when it was on the other day, and I have to say, after years of focusing on Bette, Joan's performance was really good...understated, so it was lost with Bette...the Academy focused on that and not Joan.....

And BD was really, really, really bad.

 

there's also the fact that her character sits out most of the third act, which is also a bit of a fault i have with the movie.

 

also also there is the fact that 1962 was just a really great year for movies and a very good year for leading performances by an actress, of the five nominees:

 

Anne Bancroft in THE MIRACLE WORKER

Geraldine Page in SWEET BIRD OF YOUTH

Katharine Hepburn in LONG DAY'S JOURNEY INTO NIGHT

Davis in BABY JANE

and

Lee Remick in THE DAYS OF WINE AND ROSES,

 

there's not a weak performance among that lot, as well as the fact that all five have substantial roles that have them onscreen for the entire running time. i just can't see which of them could be cut to make room for what is ultimately a supporting performance by Joan.


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#47 DougieB

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 07:24 AM

Bette's last assistant, Kathryn Sermack, has a book coming out in September, "Miss D and Me". I wonder why it took so long after Bette's death, maybe a contractual thing? Maybe the renewed interest in Bette because of the show?

Bette mentioned Kathryn in her book "This 'n' That", to the point where she actually seemed to speak for Kathryn sometimes. It'll be interesting to hear what Kathryn has to say for herself. I remember thinking at the time that the relationship was somehow intended as an "fu" to B.D. after her book, with Kathryn installed as the new "good" daughter. Only a personal impression. 


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"When Fortuna spins you downward, go out to a movie and get more out of life."...Ignatious J. Reilly, A Confederacy of Dunces


#48 ChristineHoard

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 12:10 AM

FEUD:  "You Mean All This Time We Could've Been Friends"  what a finale!  Really heartwrenching.  I don't want to say too much right now for those who haven't seen it yet, but I found this episode incredibly moving and there are a lot of great scenes - some very touching and some quite sad.


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#49 RoyCronin

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 05:20 PM

I watched most of Baby Jane when it was on the other day, and I have to say, after years of focusing on Bette, Joan's performance was really good...understated, so it was lost with Bette...the Academy focused on that and not Joan.....

And BD was really, really, really bad.
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#50 GGGGerald

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 01:32 AM

Joan must have had a lot of hate in her heart to have her only wish be to ruin the lives of Bette and the director. To the point where she ruined her own life and career in the process.

 

This episode gives a lot more of an explanation as to why she ended up with Trog in the first place. Now it begins to make sense.

 

I have to admit as time has gone on, Jessica Lange has grown on me in the character. When she first steps out of the taxi, for that brief moment, I got a slight bit of resemblance. I'm sure I'm in the minority there lol. She did have a great final scene though.


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#51 RoyCronin

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 06:04 PM

Bette's last assistant, Kathryn Sermack, has a book coming out in September, "Miss D and Me". I wonder why it took so long after Bette's death, maybe a contractual thing? Maybe the renewed interest in Bette because of the show?
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#52 rosebette

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 03:24 PM

Here's the Second City satire on Humoresque. Catherine O'Hara, with football player shoulders and five guys trying to light her cigarette simultaneously, is a hoot as Joan Crawford.

 

I can watch a spoof like this and still enjoy Humoresque for its craftsmanship. I don't think that exaggerations or laughing at silly aspects of a film hurts the viewing of the film afterward, at least for me.

 

Thank you for the terrific writeup, Rosebette.

 

 

Thanks for posting this, Tomjh!  I haven't seen it in years, and seeing the ol' Second City Gang together brought back many happy memories and a lot of laughter.  What a talented bunch!  During school vactations, my dad and siblings and I would stay up past midnight watching these and trying not to laugh too loudly while my mom slept.


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#53 TomJH

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 01:36 PM

 

I think Humoresque and Mildred Pierce are my two favorites of Crawford's 40s era, and the former is also blessed with a great cast. and wriitng.  Eve Arden is kind of the female counterpart of Oscar Levant and has some great lines,  and I'm sort of rooting for Mildred to end of with Jack Carson of all people.

 

 

I think Jack Carson is great in Mildred Pierce, the kind of performance that could have received an Oscar nod. He's brash and pushy but is also able to convey the longing that he feels for Mildred without getting sloppy about it and asking for a ton of "poor me" sympathy from the audience because she doesn't return those feelings to him.

 

I know that Bruce Bennett may be a bit of a bore in his bland role but, having said that, Bennett also conveyed a sense of decency, a decency clearly lacking in swine of the hour Zachory Scott (Scott, by the way, is also terrific in his part, too). Seeing Mildred wind up with Bennett, she could do worse. But if Carson had finally won Mildred, yeh, I would have been happy with that, too. You know his character will stick by her.


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#54 TomJH

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 01:22 PM

Here's the Second City satire on Humoresque. Catherine O'Hara, with football player shoulders and five guys trying to light her cigarette simultaneously, is a hoot as Joan Crawford.

 

I can watch a spoof like this and still enjoy Humoresque for its craftsmanship. I don't think that exaggerations or laughing at silly aspects of a film hurts the viewing of the film afterward, at least for me.

 

Thank you for the terrific writeup, Rosebette.

 

 


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#55 rosebette

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 01:11 PM

I agree. Joan was glamourous in Humoresque, as well as stylish. A combination of makeup, costumes, lighting and, of course, that great hair. She had always been a physically striking woman but the years had somehow matured her features to make her more interesting, less hard, by 1946 when she made this film. I never thought she looked more attractive than in Humoresque, even with those little reading glasses on.

 

46hum13july7.jpg

 I agree that Joan is at her best in Humoresque -- both in terms of her appearance and her performance -- but she's helped by great co-stars, music, and writing.  It's one of the few of her later films where the male lead is as strong as she is, and Oscar Levant steals every scene he's in.  The score is fabulous, and if you can get a CD called Humoresque by violinist Nadia Sonenberg, in whch she plays many of the selections played by Isaac Stern, you're in for a treat.

 

I think Humoresque and Mildred Pierce are my two favorites of Crawford's 40s era, and the latter is also blessed with a great cast. and wriitng.  Eve Arden is kind of the female counterpart of Oscar Levant and has some great lines,  and I'm sort of rooting for Mildred to end up with Jack Carson of all people.

 

Of Crawford's earlier work, I'd say Grand Hotel and Rain are her best.  Her performance in Grand Hotel is very natural and honest, while I find Garbo rather stilted and dated.  

 

That being said, I still see Crawford as more of a "star" while I view Davis as being more of a real actress.  When people talk about Crawford's beauty, I think the word "glamour" is more applicable, as glamuor is about a beauty that is created or manufactured.  Crawford had a gift for projecting glamur, but I wouldn't say she was one of the most beautiful woman on screen in the 30s or 40s.  Ingrid Bergman, for instance, was someone who I feel was one of the greatest natural beauties on screen, without any need for glamour.  


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#56 LawrenceA

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 12:52 PM

Actually I've never seen it.

(!)

I cannot remember if it's Tom Servo or Crow, I think its Servo though, who ANGRILY defends CSTM during an aside in re: the 70s during the end credits to ANGELS REVENGE.

I just carry the torch in his name

 

I haven't, either, although I want to. I love reveling in bad movies. And I have seen Thank God It's FridayRoller BoogieXanadu and Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band...so that has to count for something, right? :unsure:


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#57 LornaHansonForbes

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 12:45 PM

Yeah, but you like Can't Stop the Music.
:ph34r:


Actually I've never seen it.

(!)

I cannot remember if it's Tom Servo or Crow, I think its Servo though, who ANGRILY defends CSTM (& its director Nancy WALKER) during an aside in re: the 70s during the end credits to ANGELS REVENGE.

I just carry the torch in his name
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#58 LawrenceA

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 11:57 AM

(In Droopy Dog voice)
"I don't like it."

 

Yeah, but you like Can't Stop the Music.

:ph34r:



#59 ChristineHoard

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 11:56 AM

I can say that for me Joan was at her most alluring in "Humoresque"; her look was not so harsh. And Bette in "Eve" was attractive....so I'm assuming it's the hair that did it.

 

Totally agree about the hairstyles.  Very flattering for both women.

 

As for FEUD reviews, speedracer5, you didn't say where you read these reviews.  The show has gotten a positive vibe overall on this site plus I read the recaps on VULTURE and EW (especially VULTURE) and their comments are overall complimentary.  I'm enjoying it, especially the performances by the leads, Alfred Molina and Judy Davis.  It isn't perfect but it is entertaining and I would recommend it to anyone who is interested in film history and/or fans of Bette and Joan.  But I get time is precious and we all have priorities.

 

As for Bette and Joan, I've loved Bette seemingly forever.  Favorites are EVE, NOW VOYAGER, THE LETTER and THE LITTLE FOXES.  In recent years I, too, have grown in appreciation of Joan, especially her work in the 1940's - 1950's.



#60 LornaHansonForbes

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 11:30 AM

I'm surprised to see you say this, as many of the people on this thread have stated how much they have enjoyed the show.


(In Droopy Dog voice)
"I don't like it."
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