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Kyle Kersten was a true friend of TCM. One of the first and most active participants of the Message Boards, “Kyle in Hollywood” (aka, hlywdkjk) demonstrated a depth of knowledge and largesse of spirit that made him one of the most popular and respected voices in these forums. This thread is a living memorial to his life and love of movies, which remain with us still.

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Noir Alley


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533 replies to this topic

#1 jamesjazzguitar

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Posted Today, 03:00 PM

Thank you, Ive never seen that one.

 

Garfield was a criminal in other films like Force of Evil (lawyer for the mob),  and Postman Always Rings Twice (of course) and Nobody Lives Forever (but going to war made him a better person). 

 

(and he wasn't actually a criminal in They Made Me a Criminal). 

 

In these other films the character of the person he way playing wasn't that of a thug and there were redeeming traits (sometimes these lead to salvation and other times not,  these being noir films).

 

 In Out of the Fog he is just a thug.     In He Ran All the Way he is a thug but he wasn't a hardcore one. 



#2 TheCid

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Posted Today, 02:57 PM

The second NARROW MARGIN lost my interest with Ann Archer.

I liked her in that role and most others that she plays.



#3 TheCid

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Posted Today, 02:56 PM

Is it just me or does that picture of Marie Windsor make her look a little like Allison Janney?  (Played C.J. on The West Wing, among other roles.)

Janney has won 7 Emmys.  Four for The West Wing and two for her role on the currently popular Mom.

And yes not that you mention it, they do resemble.



#4 LornaHansonForbes

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Posted Today, 02:26 PM

Well, as I recall, Jules wasn't exactly "Mr. Cuddly" in his very last film, HE RAN ALL THE WAY, Lorna.



Thank you, Ive never seen that one.

#5 Dargo

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Posted Today, 02:25 PM

Thank you, I went to refresh myself in re: the plot on the film's Wikipedia entry after I wrote that. I had forgotten that Garfield plays an out and out villain in it...was it the only time he ever played such a character?

 

Well, as I recall, Jules wasn't exactly "Mr. Cuddly" in his very last film, HE RAN ALL THE WAY, Lorna.



#6 LornaHansonForbes

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Posted Today, 02:22 PM

I take it "rule-of-thumb" wouldn't quite cover it then, right Lorna?! ;)

Well again, in LITERAL terms...

(for the record, if someone was trying to choke the life out of me in METAPHORIC terms, I could forgive that and keep on loving them. We all do to that people we love to some degree in the end.)

#7 LornaHansonForbes

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Posted Today, 02:20 PM

The Garfield character in OOTF is not worth loving. He is a mean, selfish brute. While the Lupino character does fall for him, her motive for doing so is to get out of the fog (the dreary place she lives), but finally wises up and decides the price for doing so is too high.

Note this is somewhat similar to the Bogart\Lupino romance in High Sierra in that Bogart is a criminal but with a good heart. He doesn't enjoy having to use violence like Garfield; it is just a means to an end. While Lupino is jealous of how Bogart helps the other gal (Joan Leslie), it does show the sensitive side of the character.

While both criminals die in the end, Bogart's character is set free from a world that wasn't meant for him. In the case of the Garfield character, society is set free from him.


Thank you, I went to refresh myself in re: the plot on the film's Wikipedia entry after I wrote that. I had forgotten that Garfield plays an out and out villain in it...was it the only time he ever played such a character?

#8 Dargo

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Posted Today, 02:19 PM

It is an ever fixed mark, yeah sure.
That's lovely.

However...

While I have to admit that I personally have not dated a lot: from a personal standpoint, i securely say that my love comes with conditions, not many, but one of those conditions is that you not try to literally choke the life out of me.( **No matter how much you might want to.)

Call it a condition, call it a standard, call it what you will. But you just got to draw the line at some things.

My love ends there and then.
...at attempted strangulation, that is.

 

I take it "rule-of-thumb" wouldn't quite cover it then, right Lorna?! ;)



#9 LornaHansonForbes

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Posted Today, 02:13 PM

"Love's not love
When it is mingled with regards that stand
Aloof from th'entire point."


It is an ever fixed mark, yeah sure.
That's lovely.

However...

While I have to admit that I personally have not dated a lot: from a personal standpoint, i securely say that my love comes with conditions, not many, but one of those conditions is that you not try to literally choke the life out of me.( **No matter how much you might want to.)

Call it a condition, call it a standard, call it what you will. But you just got to draw the line at some things.

My love ends there and then.
(...at attempted strangulation, that is.)

#10 LornaHansonForbes

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Posted Today, 02:08 PM

Is it just me or does that picture of Marie Windsor make her look a little like Allison Janney? (Played C.J. on The West Wing, among other roles.)


Holy Cats you are right!

(speaking of, I think Marie qualifies as part feline, in answer to your question about cats in noir, Cigar.)

#11 Dargo

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Posted Today, 02:08 PM

Is it just me or does that picture of Marie Windsor make her look a little like Allison Janney?  (Played C.J. on The West Wing, among other roles.)

 

And who is absolutely hilarious on the sitcom "Mom", btw.



#12 LornaHansonForbes

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Posted Today, 02:07 PM

The second (NARROW MARGIN) 1990 lost my interest with the helicopter and actions sequences. Film Noir were fairly simple as soon as remakes forget that and get too ambitious they lose that overall Noir zeitgeist, in my opinion.


The second NARROW MARGIN lost my interest with Ann Archer.

#13 cmovieviewer

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Posted Today, 01:58 PM

Marie Windsor - one of the great sexy tough broads of the movies in this film.

 

46eba707584a1625ba24efb8f4a10ec6--marie-
 

Is it just me or does that picture of Marie Windsor make her look a little like Allison Janney?  (Played C.J. on The West Wing, among other roles.)


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#14 Dargo

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Posted Today, 01:49 PM

Yeah, good point MissW(and welcome back, btw), and I also always got the impression that McGraw's character in this film was also a little slow on the ol' uptake quite often.

 

Maybe that's one of the reasons his character acts the way he does when he finally discovers the truth about Marie's character.

 

(...he can only juggle one concept in his mind at a time)


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#15 misswonderly3

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Posted Today, 01:23 PM

Sorry, but that is really twisting my words.

 

Isn't the whole point of the concept of unconditional love that it doesn't change?  By definition it can't be unconditional love if it changes when conditions change!

 

"Love's not love

When it  is mingled with regards that stand

Aloof from th'entire point."


"....What is it?"

"The stuff that dreams are made of."


#16 misswonderly3

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Posted Today, 01:11 PM

Just saw the promo The Narrow Margin (1952) Monday at 10:00AM (EST)

 

Narrow%2BMargin%2B102.jpg"Sunburn wear off..... on the way out?"

 

The majority of the film takes place upon the RKO "Golden West Limited" set as it rattles and rolls through movie magic very believably towards Los Angeles.  It's a work of Studio/Stage/Special Effects Art, the great design of the various rail car sets, the lighting effects, plus an all immersive sound design. This is all intercut with second unit exterior location material and stock footage that convey the illusion of " the jornada", a road picture on rails. There are not many road pictures as tight as this one just judging it visually and audibly alone. One of my favorites 10/10

 SPOILERAMAS !

 

Ok, I like Narrow Margin a lot, too. And I agree, it has to be one of the best movies (in any genre, not just noir) set almost entirely on a train. Ya gotta love the tough-talking interplay between cynical street-hardened Charles McGraw and equally flinty Marie Windsor  (I love this noir lady - and as for toughness,she could give Anne Savage a run for her money...)

There are all kinds of fun little details in the film...the big fat guy who keeps blocking off the narrow train passageway from everybody,  the ultra-noir dialogue  (how can you not love a line like "She's the sixty cent special. Cheap. Flashy. Strictly poison under the gravy."?) , and damn, how about that loud trashy swing music Marie keeps playing in her train compartment?  And why does she keep drawing attention to herself in this way? Just to prove she's  trashy, the kind of woman who plays cheap popular music at full blast ? and  how come she's brought a record player onto a train? ( or is it a radio?)  Even back then, when train accommodation was roomier than it is now, that would have been kind of awkward.  But I enjoy the loud swing music thing, and the implication that anyone who plays that kind of music is trash.  ( A common device in old movies, especially noirs - show the person's shallow character by letting them listen to loud popular swing music. It always makes me laugh...)

 

Anyway, I'm digressing a bit. What I really wanted to say was -  SPOILER   -  of course we find out that the trashy fast-talking Marie Windsor is a police officer, set up as a decoy to confuse the would-be assassin and derail ( pun intended) him from killing the real gangster's wife.  What bothers me, a lot, actually, is that when poor old Marie is killed, Charles McGraw, even after he finds out who she really was, doesn't bat an eye. This woman risked her life - and lost it - in the line of duty, protecting a key witness, knowing that the odds of getting killed herself were high.

Yet does McGraw say one word in her favour? Does he express any regret for the nasty assumptions he made about her, and the rude way her treated her?  Nah. He's too busy trying to curry favour with the real gangster's wife - who of course is everything poor old Marie Windsor was not ( decorous, quiet, "decent"...)

Every time I see this film, I want him to give a speech about how wrong he was, how fine a person Windsor was for giving up her life so the wheels of justice McGraw claims to respect so much can keep turning. But nope, he just doesn't care.


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"....What is it?"

"The stuff that dreams are made of."


#17 Dargo

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Posted Today, 12:47 PM

Well Laurel, at least, has the self survival instincts to leave Dix. That wouldn't necessarily apply to some other women, unfortunately. They'd be back for more of the same.
 

 

Yeah, and I believe in the parlance of Law Enforcement, this is known as a "domestic disturbance call", Tom. ;)

 

(...and something of which I understand our men and women in blue just LOVE responding to)



#18 cmovieviewer

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Posted Today, 12:44 PM

We have a very different take on unconditional love.    In addition, to me, you overstate how much a parent or married person knows about their children \ spouse.      No one really ever knows what someone is capable of,  ever.     Just ask O.J.'s mother.    (who, due to unconditional love, still believes he was just misunderstood and didn't commit any crimes).

 

Based on your 'opt-out' comment it appears you believe once one has unconditional love,  that this love can never change.    I don't view it that way.      Therefore if one has my view of unconditional love,   Laurel can be viewed as a role model as it relates to that and domestic violence.     I.e.  if conditions change the wise person changes their view and their love is no longer unconditional and they leave the situation.   

 

Sorry, but that is really twisting my words.

 

Isn't the whole point of the concept of unconditional love that it doesn't change?  By definition it can't be unconditional love if it changes when conditions change!



#19 jamesjazzguitar

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Posted Today, 12:24 PM

I would not refer to that form of relationship as unconditional love, I would refer to that as misguided love, which could occur because someone does not know another person well enough.  As you mention, her view of him ultimately changes as she sees the way he behaves.  In the parent-child relationship or married couple relationship one knows almost everything about the other and chooses to love them no matter what.

 

That is basically what my point is - Laurel is still learning who Dixon is and like anyone 'dating' another person, they should be able to opt out of the relationship at any time.  For me this situation does not illustrate an unconditional love situation, and it is problematic to try to apply it to this film because of that.

 

We have a very different take on unconditional love.    In addition, to me, you overstate how much a parent or married person knows about their children \ spouse.      No one really ever knows what someone is capable of,  ever.     Just ask O.J.'s mother.    (who, due to unconditional love, still believes he was just misunderstood and didn't commit any crimes).

 

Based on your 'opt-out' comment it appears you believe once one has unconditional love,  that this love can never change.    I don't view it that way.      Therefore if one has my view of unconditional love,   Laurel can be viewed as a role model as it relates to that and domestic violence.     I.e.  if conditions change the wise person changes their view and their love is no longer unconditional and they leave the situation.   



#20 cmovieviewer

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Posted Today, 12:15 PM

Laurel does initially does have unconditional love for Dixon.   This is made clear in the scene at the cop's house with his wife where she defends him.    Like a lot of women Laurel knows he has a violent temper but believes it will not be directed towards him (a folly associated with unconditional love).   After a few more incidences she realizes that it could be directed towards her and decides to leave him.    The ending makes clear that this was a wise decision.

 

Sadly this is fairly common behavior, yesterday and today.

I would not refer to that form of relationship as unconditional love, I would refer to that as misguided love, which could occur because someone does not know another person well enough.  As you mention, her view of him ultimately changes as she sees the way he behaves.  In the parent-child relationship or married couple relationship one knows almost everything about the other and chooses to love them no matter what.

 

That is basically what my point is - Laurel is still learning who Dixon is and like anyone 'dating' another person, they should be able to opt out of the relationship at any time.  For me this situation does not illustrate an unconditional love situation, and it is problematic to try to apply it to this film because of that.






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