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Kyle Kersten was a true friend of TCM. One of the first and most active participants of the Message Boards, “Kyle in Hollywood” (aka, hlywdkjk) demonstrated a depth of knowledge and largesse of spirit that made him one of the most popular and respected voices in these forums. This thread is a living memorial to his life and love of movies, which remain with us still.

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TCM spotlight on 'gay hollywood'-- June 2017


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#1 TopBilled

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:33 PM

Does anyone think that CROSSFIRE  would have followed the THE BRICK FOXHOLE (its source novel by Richard Brooks) and have the murdered character be gay, like in the novel, instead of Jewish?

 

I thought about this film when I was reading earlier responses in the thread. Not only was the production code strongly enforced in 1947, but also we had liberal artists (producers, directors, writers and actors) threatened with blacklisting. Some of the content in films that was technically not in violation of the code (like pro-Russian sentiment) was now targeted. Many of the people who worked on CROSSFIRE were already under investigation by the House committee. So if they had insisted on using a gay storyline, it would have pulled the noose tighter around their necks-- they would have been regarded by conservatives as even more subversive, radical and dangerous to the moral fabric of America.


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"The truth? What good is the truth if it destroys us all..?" -- Mady Christians in ALL MY SONS (1948).


#2 Swithin

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 07:17 PM

An actor who had to be closeted in order to get work was Richard Deacon.  He did several films for Disney, who would never have hired him if they suspected he was gay.

 

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#3 ChristineHoard

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 07:11 PM

It's possible, jaragon.  Does anyone think that CROSSFIRE  would have followed the THE BRICK FOXHOLE (its source novel by Richard Brooks) and have the murdered character be gay, like in the novel, instead of Jewish?


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#4 jaragon

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 06:51 PM

Very good question.  I would like to think Hollywood would have been more open and enlightened but the stigma against homosexuality in much of "the real world" may have prevented it.  Would portrayals fall along the lines of African Americans in the movies?  Stereotypes in the 30's and 40's, a little more diverse and empathetic after WW2 and in the 50's and 60's?  For all the talk about how "liberal" Hollywood is, it's still a pretty conservative place when it comes to subject matter and not wanting to offend the moviegoing public, although every now and then there is a breakthrough of sorts especially in independent film.

Yes I agree "liberal" Hollywood is still a conservative industry town and gay character even with out the code restrictions would have been used as in that clip for shocking and humorous purposes.- but still if gay characters had not been banned would some trail blazing classic era director/ producer might have given us a more real view of the homosexual experience specially in the post war era


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#5 ChristineHoard

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 06:23 PM

Very good question.  I would like to think Hollywood would have been more open and enlightened but the stigma against homosexuality in much of "the real world" may have prevented it.  Would portrayals fall along the lines of African Americans in the movies?  Stereotypes in the 30's and 40's, a little more diverse and empathetic after WW2 and in the 50's and 60's?  For all the talk about how "liberal" Hollywood is, it's still a pretty conservative place when it comes to subject matter and not wanting to offend the moviegoing public, although every now and then there is a breakthrough of sorts especially in independent film.


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#6 jaragon

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 05:27 PM

I was watching the clip from "Wonder Bar" in which the two gay men dance together and it made me wonder if there was no code would gay characters have become more open in mainstream movies sooner- who knows the Hollywood film history that never was?


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#7 princessjulia

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 04:24 PM

Welcome to classic film and the message boards, princessjulia.

 

Thank you!!  :lol:


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#8 Jlewis

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 06:10 PM

After all, Borgnine worked hard to keep Frankie separated from Monty in From Here to Eternity by imposing his own style of... um... abuse.


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#9 jaragon

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 05:42 PM

Careful. The mere suggestion that there were gay men in Marty's situation (being bombarded with questions about getting married) caused a huge uproar on these boards a few years back and may even have explained why the Hot Topics forum went bye-bye, to make it go away. Endless variations of "How dare you say Marty was gay?", even though nobody ever did. Fun times.

LOL oh yes I remember it well


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#10 DougieB

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 05:30 PM

Marty just needed to meet a nice bear.... ;)

Careful. The mere suggestion that there were gay men in Marty's situation (being bombarded with questions about getting married) caused a huge uproar on these boards a few years back and may even have explained why the Hot Topics forum went bye-bye, to make it go away. Endless variations of "How dare you say Marty was gay?", even though nobody ever did. Fun times.


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"When Fortuna spins you downward, go out to a movie and get more out of life."...Ignatious J. Reilly, A Confederacy of Dunces


#11 jaragon

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 05:07 PM

Rachel was lucky in that she wasn't a "fat ugly man" as even older Ernest Borgnine in Marty kept calling himself. On the plus side, his mommy was much nicer than hers.

Marty just needed to meet a nice bear.... ;)


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#12 Jlewis

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 02:05 PM

As for Rachel, Rachel I didn't see it this time around but I've seen it before. It's a product of its time.  I think I was in college when it first came out.  I wanted Rachel to let her hair loose and spread her wings more.  Be free, girlfriend!  There are worse things than being single at 35.  It's unfortunate we can't talk to Joanne Woodward about it.  A couple of months ago I read/heard she has dementia, sadly.

 

Rachel was lucky in that she wasn't a "fat ugly man" as even older Ernest Borgnine in Marty kept calling himself. On the plus side, his mommy was much nicer than hers.


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#13 ChristineHoard

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 01:38 PM

Yes, I am very interested in the wraparounds, too.  How honest are they going to be?  How truthful?  Are we just going to get Hollywood ****?   I am looking forward to the William Haines flick, among other things.  I've seen him in a couple of movies and he's quite funny and charming.

 

As for Rachel, Rachel I didn't see it this time around but I've seen it before. It's a product of its time.  I think I was in college when it first came out.  I wanted Rachel to let her hair loose and spread her wings more.  Be free, girlfriend!  There are worse things than being single at 35.  It's unfortunate we can't talk to Joanne Woodward about it.  A couple of months ago I read/heard she has dementia, sadly.


Edited by TCMModerator1, 28 March 2017 - 05:39 PM.
Edited For Language

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#14 Jlewis

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 01:05 PM

TCM  always "errs" on any frank disclosures - or even invents bizarre lies.

 

Like when Robert Osborne was talking about the kiss in "Deathtrap".

 

He said that the actors had to get drunk.

 

An outright LIE, as is so obvious in the scene itself.

 

Could this potentially shed some light as to why he was so private about David? Something about his relationship didn't feel "right" to him?

 

I remember how Katharine Hepburn fretted so much about Spencer Tracy feeling ashamed of stuff that she felt he shouldn't be ashamed of. She often got teary eyed thinking of it (whatever the "stuff" was, without disclosing details) in interviews she did in that last decade or two of her own life.


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#15 TopBilled

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 11:50 AM

TCM  always "errs" on any frank disclosures - or even invents bizarre lies.

 

Like when Robert Osborne was talking about the kiss in "Deathtrap".

 

He said that the actors had to get drunk.

 

An outright LIE, as is so obvious in the scene itself.

 

This is the one thing I don't like about the wraparounds-- sometimes what they're reading off the TelePrompTer is not fact but is either gossip or old publicity material that was basically fabrication invented to sell the movie. But it gets put forward as if it's part of the actual history of production when it's a separate side fiction. 

 

I also think some of the guests who come on and are interviewed are not always telling the truth. They like to embellish to make things seem more glamorous or outrageous than they might actually have been. So it's like this big show about show business.


"The truth? What good is the truth if it destroys us all..?" -- Mady Christians in ALL MY SONS (1948).


#16 rayban

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 11:35 AM

In some cases this seems to be a very vague connection. It will be interesting to see the on-air wraparounds when the series gets underway on TCM.

 

Welcome to classic film and the message boards, princessjulia.

TCM  always "errs" on any frank disclosures - or even invents bizarre lies.

 

Like when Robert Osborne was talking about the kiss in "Deathtrap".

 

He said that the actors had to get drunk.

 

An outright LIE, as is so obvious in the scene itself.


"I was born the day she kissed me.  I died the day she left me.  I lived a few weeks while she loved me." - Humphrey Bogart in "In A Lonely Place".


#17 TopBilled

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 11:30 AM

The link seems to be that either the actor or the creative force behind the film has gay connection

 

In some cases this seems to be a very vague connection. It will be interesting to see the on-air wraparounds when the series gets underway on TCM.

 

Welcome to classic film and the message boards, princessjulia.


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"The truth? What good is the truth if it destroys us all..?" -- Mady Christians in ALL MY SONS (1948).


#18 rayban

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 09:15 PM

Tom Drake was married for just a year, if that means anything. Otherwise he is just as mysterious in his private life as James Olson. Yet it still amuses me that he plays the straight one, Richard Rodgers (if shown committed to his wife, played by Janet Leigh, when he was equally a womanizer). In contrast, womanizer and multi-married Mickey Rooney plays the gay one. Only MGM didn't have the "hart" to indicate this. Instead we are to assume that he was too short to date women properly.

Yes, MGM went out of its' way to invent a reason for the fact that Lorenz Hart wasn't dating women.


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"I was born the day she kissed me.  I died the day she left me.  I lived a few weeks while she loved me." - Humphrey Bogart in "In A Lonely Place".


#19 Jlewis

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 07:43 PM

That is, "Words and Music" - Lorenz Hart; "Night and Day" - Cole Porter.

 

Tom Drake was married for just a year, if that means anything. Otherwise he is just as mysterious in his private life as James Olson. Yet it still amuses me that he plays the straight one, Richard Rodgers (if shown committed to his wife, played by Janet Leigh, when he was equally a womanizer). In contrast, womanizer and multi-married Mickey Rooney plays the gay one. Only MGM didn't have the "hart" to indicate this. Instead we are to assume that he was too short to date women properly.


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#20 rayban

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 06:21 PM

Actually Words and Music is included because the musical "heteronormalized" one of the famous songwriters it was profiling. Ditto Night and Day.

That is, "Words and Music" - Lorenz Hart; "Night and Day" - Cole Porter.


"I was born the day she kissed me.  I died the day she left me.  I lived a few weeks while she loved me." - Humphrey Bogart in "In A Lonely Place".





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