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"Unforgiven" voted all-time best western by...


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#41 Sepiatone

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 10:44 AM

I believe it should be "Westerns is " rather than "Westerns are". "Westerns" is the name  of a genre, which is a singular concept. Grammar police?

"Westerns" is a plural, and the genre is known as "Western".  Like in,

 

"What kind of movie IS this?"  and the answer WOULDN'T be, "It's a WESTERNS."

 

Or like the MUSIC genre isn't known as "Coutry/westerns"    :)

 

 

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#42 TomJH

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 08:59 AM

THE BIG COUNTRY is definitely among my top ten westerns, an intelligent William Wyler production, with an outstanding cast all rising to the occasion and one of the truly great western musical scores by Jerome Moross.

 

I have a feeling that many western buffs might be dismissive of this lengthy film primarily for two reasons:

 

1. its relative lack of action

 

2. its pacifist message

 

Here's a set shot I've never seen before. What a cast! This would be Alfonso Bedoya's last film, released after his death. You see him seated beside Peck in this shot.

 

24f5b464a07ff96801ad571c1904f06e.jpg


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#43 jakeem

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 08:44 AM

I believe it should be "Westerns is " rather than "Westerns are". "Westerns" is the name  of a genre, which is a singular concept. Grammar police?

 

Would you say "Dramas is" or "Comedies is"?


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#44 YabbaDabba

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 09:27 PM

Huh?   Unforgiven was terrible.  My dad was a western connoisseur, and I was raised on them.  He hated that movie, thought it was pretentious.  I had to agree.

 

His favorite was Lonesome Dove.  I am surprised that no one has mentioned that.  Ok, it's a "tv movie" - it doesn't matter.   THAT is the grandpappy of all of them.  Tommy Lee Jones flying thru town on that white/gray dapple horse.  The pigs following the wagon. Gus and the women.  

 

My favorite is actually Broken Trail.  There is nothing like Duvall - "You will not hurt these children. No sir."  

 

Other than that....

 

The Big Country

High Noon

Shane

Good Bad & Ugly

the Magnificent Seven

Stagecoach

True Grit  (Both, actually.)

Open Range

 

 

And I see a place on the list for The Hateful Eight as well.  


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#45 DownGoesFrazier

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 01:55 PM

Obviously too, Grammar wasn't your favorite elementary school subject.  ;)

 

Sepiatone

I believe it should be "Westerns is " rather than "Westerns are". "Westerns" is the name  of a genre, which is a singular concept. Grammar police?



#46 cigarjoe

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 12:42 PM

This is not a reprise of the man with no name character. 

 

I didn't literally mean he was a reprise of the Man With No Name character. What I meant was that Eastwood true to form would break down and kick a$$ as his many characters in films through the years have also save for Gran Torino which was a true break. 



#47 Sepiatone

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 10:37 AM

 

Whenever I'm changing channels around - and I stumble onto this movie - at any point in the movie - I have to stop. And I never ever stop watching till it ends.

 

 

 

Hmmmm..........

 

Well, so far as I know, that makes TWO of us!  B)

 

 

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#48 Ray Faiola

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 10:06 AM

I've always thought of UNFORGIVEN as a great film that was set in the west. It is a very real picture, not elemental as far as the usual trappings of "a western".  THE SEARCHERS is a great "western".  Just a personal observation.

 

As for votes and lists, no thanks.



#49 Sepiatone

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 09:41 AM

Westerns is perhaps my least favorite film genre.

Obviously too, Grammar wasn't your favorite elementary school subject.  ;)

 

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#50 DownGoesFrazier

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:46 AM

I love Westerns films just as much as I love Musicals.  I can't argue with such titles such as "Unforgiven", "High Noon", "The Searchers", "Shane", "Stagecoach", "Red River", "The  Westerner", "Shootout at the O.K. Corral", The Ford trilogy.  I love all of these movies and always try to watch them when they are scheduled on TCM.  I believe "Unforgiven" is a Top 5 Western film of all time.    

 

I know any "best of" list is just an excuse to start an argument.  Since we do not know what titles are on this particular "All Time Best Westerns" list I would assume that the following movie made it on the list but is rarely spoken of on the TCM Message Boards nor has it made its premier on TCM.  This particular movie was released one year after "Unforgiven".  The movie which I speak of is "Tombstone".  This movie is going to be, if not, a classic Western movie and should be in the top 15 of any "All Time Top 50 Westerns".

Westerns is perhaps my least favorite film genre. My interest in classic films focuses almost exclusively on Easterns..



#51 darkblue

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:41 AM

As far as Eastwood's "man with no name" character goes, there's NONE of that in the portrayal of William Munny.  "No Name" does what he does in those movies willingly and with no regrets about his present and past.  In UNFORGIVEN, Munny reluctantly does what he does and is FULL of regrets about his past and unsure of his present and future.

 

Quite right.

 

This is not a reprise of the man with no name character. That character is a laconic anti-hero - an almost mythological figure - a killer, but with a heart of gold really, who will ultimately fight on the side of non-evil.

 

William Munny is no anti-hero. He was a very, very bad man. A man within whom dwells a monster - a monster that is unlocked from its cage by alcohol. He has done terrible things in the past. He has been so vicious that even his gang feared him. Because a woman - and she must have been quite a woman - managed to give him something that the alcohol could not provide - peace - he became sober and, ultimately, a family man.

 

But in his sobriety, the memories of his terrible acts of the past play on his mind - and his heart - constantly. His living wife would have been a salve to the inner torment of those memories, but with her death, they intrude more and more into his guilt-ridden existence. 

 

Nevertheless, to honor her love for him and to do the right thing by his children, he keeps the monster locked down. He doesn't drink and he talks out his torment to the one and only friend left in his life.

 

That the movie has the title "Unforgiven" is no accident. He knows that his past evil has damned him to this suffering, no matter what. Every breath is a struggle for him. Every day a fight to get through it loaded down with the guilt he lives with. If he didn't have children I really don't think he'd have a prayer of staying sober and non-evil.

 

The most revealing scene in the movie about all this - and there are many hints of it throughout - is when he has a brief moment of consciousness while fighting for his life against a killing fever. He speaks of seeing the devil -"he's got snakes eyes", he says. And he pleads, anguished, "Oh, Ned - don't tell nobody - don't tell my kids - none of the things I done". Even in that brief moment of consciousness, the guilt of his very being instantly returns. It's with him ever.

 

Throughout the film, he embodies in his carriage sorrow, regret, and a sad resolution of the weight he carries.

 

When he learns of the way Little Bill treated Ned - ultimately killing him - the change that comes over him is chilling. The anger that floods through him causes him - with immediateness -  to free the monster he's been suppressing all the years since his wife convinced him to. He takes the bottle from the Kid - the key - and deliberately opens the cage so that what must be done can be done. The scene still gives me goosebumps, though I've watched it 20 times now. The cold fury in William Munny is palpable - maybe the best - the most genuine - I've ever seen acted.

 

Whenever I'm changing channels around - and I stumble onto this movie - at any point in the movie - I have to stop. And I never ever stop watching till it ends.

 

And I haven't even mentioned the fascinating characters of Little Bill and English Bob who provide some stunningly riveting scenes in this unbelievably good movie.

 

I love a good western - and even some not so good ones - but I've never been so engrossed by one as with 'Unforgiven'.


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#52 Sepiatone

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 07:22 AM

Not a doubt in the world as far as I'm concerned.

 

An astonishingly good movie - and the most hypnotic western ever. 

 

I don't know if I'd go THAT far,  but it DOES delve deeper into it's characters than most(if not all) westerns before it.

 

As far as Eastwood's "man with no nmae" character goes, there's NONE of that in the portrayal of William Munny.  "No Name" does what he does in those movies willingly and with no regrets about his present and past.  In UNFORGIVEN, Munny reluctantly does what he does and is FULL of regrets about his past and unsure of his present and future.

 

Someone here stated their favorite line in the movie is when Hackman, as "Little Bill" tells Eastwood's Munny, "I'll see you in HELL."  whereas I liked Munny's resignation filled "Yeah." in response.

 

 

Sepiatone


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#53 MovieMadness

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 10:47 PM

I forget the exact website right now, but was taken back a bit when the site voted on the top 50 or more all-time greatest westerns & at A #1 was Eastwood's tremendous 1992 Oscar sweeping "Unforgiven" though
 

 

It was the Micky Mouse club that voted. I guess they never saw anything before 1992.


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#54 darkblue

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 11:39 AM

"UNFORGIVEN" VOTED ALL-TIME BEST WESTERN

 

Not a doubt in the world as far as I'm concerned.

 

An astonishingly good movie - and the most hypnotic western ever. 


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#55 spence

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 11:18 AM

Lawrence, I thought-(but did well that yr in predicting the Oscars that it's cinematography & script also shoulda' won)

& my gut instinct when first going t it-(august of '92) knew Hackman would take home his 2nd Academy Award as Little Bill & on that type, though now here in same league, but corny fun & yet another superb performance by him is 1995's "Quick and the Dead" ($19m.))



#56 spence

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 11:15 AM

That's actually integral to the success of the film. It works because of Eastwood's past. When people in the film recall the things that William Munny has done in the past, the audience is expected to recall prior Eastwood films, particularly the Man with No Name. The story is showing what would have become of such a man if he had lived to old age, what it would have done to him internally. 
 
When at the end, as you put it, "the Man with No Name" shows up, the Munny character has lost. Sure, he kills the "bad guys", but at what cost? To get to that place in his mind where he can do those things again, he loses his soul. That was what Eastwood was trying to say, that these violent men were not heroes to be cheered, but soulless monsters to be feared, and maybe even pitied.
 
This is not your father's Western. It's deconstructionist of deconstructionist Westerns. The Man with No Name films, and others of its ilk, turned the old "white-hat/black-hat" Western archetype on its head by showing moral ambivalence. Unforgiven was a study on the end results of such moral ambivalence.
 
All of that, plus the tremendous acting, excellent dialogue, authentic sets and costuming, and superlative cinematography, are why it's in my top 5 favorite Westerns.


Lawrence, I thought-(but did well that yr in predicting the Oscars0 that it's cinematography & script also shoulda' won)

#57 spence

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 11:13 AM

My Top Ten Favorite Westerns
 
Once Upon a Time in the West
The Wild Bunch
The Assassination of Jesse James By the Coward Robert Ford-(Lawrence, another very rare inclusion, but it's very little known & only made $4m. & I went toi it when released & also think it's very strong (***1/2-out of 4) It earned the recent *Oscar victor: Casey Affleck a s. actor shot & took home Best Cinematograph. I felt as though it was like looking into a time porthole of sorts)
Unforgiven
The Good, the Bad and the Ugly-(TRIVIA: & is the ever obnoxious but talented filmmaker Q. Tarentino's all-time all-around fav. motion picture)
The Magnificent Seven-(P.S. I reviewed last yrs remake & expected it to be a typical remake in this era, but found it a wee-bit better then I anticipated (barely 2 & 1/2( & almost grossed $100m. domestically) of course still no match for this 1960 version)
The Searchers
The Long Riders-(& a fairly unknown & underrated western by Walter Hill)
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
The Outlaw Josey Wales-(my personal candidate among Eastwood's overall top 3 to 5 finest)
 
Runner-ups: Red River, Stagecoach, Tombstone, Little Big Man and Ride the High Country


& a comparison vs. my own top 10:
1st "The Searchers"-(AFI voted it up to #12th place from #96th in it's hardly & still unkown sequel/follow up to "AFI's 100yrs...100 Movies" (l998) & in 07 they conducted this follow-up but not televised "AFI's 100yrs...100 Movies"-"10th Anniversary Edition" It voted it up #84 notches in a decade!)
2. "Shane"
3. "0nce Upon a Time in the West"-(NOTE: & also contains my all-time fav. score by Ennio)
4. "Unforgiven" ('92 version)-(P.S. I'll always remember both Ebert & Siskel-(now & sadly far more forgotton then Ebert?) compared it's scrip & dialogue to Hemingway)
5th "The Wild Bunch" (TRIVIA: Along w/"Bonnie & Clyde" the major reasons they installed the MPAA rating system)
6. "Red River"
7. "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance"-(PRINT THE LEGDN)
8. "High Noon"-(a role first & literally push onto John Wayne, like the earlier *Oscar sweeping "All the King's Men" (l949)
9. "My Darling Clementine"-(To me Henry was the epitome of Earp here, runner-up Costner in his epic 195min 1994 "Wyatt Earp" Ford even got to know Ford personally, shortly before his 1929 demise at age 81)
10th fav. "Stagecoach" (l939)-(not especially among my true favorite's, but must be included)
(Honorable-mention):
"Lonesome Dove" (l989 tv mini-series) Even Duvall's favorite role as Augustus McCrae)
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#58 jakeem

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 11:11 AM

(TRIVIA: For the most part all that's still-standing from "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" (l949) is *Wayne's own house/fort,etc) American-Indians used to adore Ford because he'd always give them jobs. & given he reached admiral during "The War" like *Jimmy Stewart, he easily coulda' ben interred at "Arlington," but instead chose "Holy Cross, cem" in Culver City & *Jimmy chose the legendary Glendale "F. Lawn" instead, with his contemporaries
& who knows-(I'm certain one of you fellow TCM-ITES will have the answer out there) why was the marvelous in every way, Maureen 0'Hara chose/allowed to be interred in "Arlington, cem.?")

 

O'Hara is buried at Arlington National Cemetery next to her third husband, Charles F. Blair, Jr., who was an aviator and brigadier general in the U.S. Air Force. They were married from 1968 until his death in a place crash in 1978.

 

Maureen-OHara-Charlie-Blair-Jr.jpg



#59 LawrenceA

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 11:08 AM

Agree, about Unforgiven.

 

Do this little test, imagine replacing Eastwood's character with another actor, and see how it holds up. With Eastwood half the production is carried by the cachet of the Man With No Name/Dirty Harry personna built up over his career, we know no matter how much pig  poop he lays in that at some point the Man With No Name will appear.

 

That's actually integral to the success of the film. It works because of Eastwood's past. When people in the film recall the things that William Munny has done in the past, the audience is expected to recall prior Eastwood films, particularly the Man with No Name. The story is showing what would have become of such a man if he had lived to old age, what it would have done to him internally. 

 

When at the end, as you put it, "the Man with No Name appears", the Munny character has lost. Sure, he kills the "bad guys", but at what cost? To get to that place in his mind where he can do those things again, he loses his soul. That was what Eastwood was trying to say, that these violent men were not heroes to be cheered, but soulless monsters to be feared, and maybe even pitied.

 

This is not your father's Western. It's deconstructionist of deconstructionist Westerns. The Man with No Name films, and others of its ilk, turned the old "white-hat/black-hat" Western archetype on its head by showing moral ambivalence. Unforgiven was a study on the end results of such moral ambivalence.

 

All of that, plus the tremendous acting, excellent dialogue, authentic sets and costuming, and superlative cinematography, are why it's in my top 5 favorite Westerns. 



#60 spence

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 10:53 AM

I love Westerns films just as much as I love Musicals.  I can't argue with such titles such as "Unforgiven", "High Noon", "The Searchers", "Shane", "Stagecoach", "Red River", "The  Westerner", "Shootout at the O.K. Corral", The Ford trilogy.  I love all of these movies and always try to watch them when they are scheduled on TCM.  I believe "Unforgiven" is a Top 5 Western film of all time.    
 
I know any "best of" list is just an excuse to start an argument.  Since we do not know what titles are on this particular "All Time Best Westerns" list I would assume that the following movie made it on the list but is rarely spoken of on the TCM Message Boards nor has it made its premier on TCM.  This particular movie was released one year after "Unforgiven".  The movie which I speak of is "Tombstone".  This movie is going to be, if not, a classic Western movie and should be in the top 15 of any "All Time Top 50 Westerns".


(TRIVIA: For the most part all that's still-standing from "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" (l949) is *Wayne's own house/fort,etc) American-Indians used to adore Ford because he'd always give them jobs. & given he reached admiral during "The War" like *Jimmy Stewart, he easily coulda' ben interred at "Arlington," but instead chose "Holy Cross, cem" in Culver City & *Jimmy chose the legendary Glendale "F. Lawn" instead, with his contemporaries
& who knows-(I'm certain one of you fellow TCM-ITES will have the answer out there) why was the marvelous in every way, Maureen 0'Hara chose/allowed to be interred in "Arlington, cem.?")




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