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Kyle Kersten was a true friend of TCM. One of the first and most active participants of the Message Boards, “Kyle in Hollywood” (aka, hlywdkjk) demonstrated a depth of knowledge and largesse of spirit that made him one of the most popular and respected voices in these forums. This thread is a living memorial to his life and love of movies, which remain with us still.

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Chuck Berry (1926-2017)


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#1 Vautrin

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Posted Today, 10:45 PM

Well, I did say "see".

 

As far as what I hear in Prince's music, it's not much I like, so I try to hear it as little as possible.

I really like Prince. He put out some excellent records in

his prime. And even after that he was releasing one album

about every year. 


Curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid get.


#2 slaytonf

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Posted Today, 06:22 PM

Your post totally failed to address my point. I'm talking about post-Maybellene., and I'll bet if you looked at the specialized Billboard charts from the later '50s (Top 40 race music, or whatever they were called back then), Berry's records didn't rank very high. At his appearances, there were mostly white faces in the crowd. 

 

 

Surprised white faces.



#3 LawrenceA

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Posted Today, 05:26 PM

In the visuals, presentation, and vocals I see that.

Not sure about the music.

 

Well, I did say "see".

 

As far as what I hear in Prince's music, it's not much I like, so I try to hear it as little as possible.



#4 Vautrin

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Posted Today, 05:16 PM

I see more of Little Richard in Prince, personally.

In the visuals, presentation, and vocals I see that.

Not sure about the music.


Curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid get.


#5 Princess of Tap

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Posted Today, 05:16 PM

I see more of Little Richard in Prince, personally.


Yes, as well as James Brown - - but all that Beatlesque type Rock Stuff is channeling indirectly from Chuck Berry.

Prince was an artist who understood rock and roll profoundly.

#6 LawrenceA

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Posted Today, 04:51 PM

Maybe like degrees of separation. Not many

with the Beatles, and quite a few with Prince.

 

I see more of Little Richard in Prince, personally.



#7 Vautrin

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Posted Today, 04:49 PM

You may be trying to draw direct influence too much. Listen to the Beatles earliest stuff, and it's blues-based rave-up rockers, which if not directly influenced by Berry, were influenced indirectly. As in, they tried to sound like Eddie Cochran or Buddy Holly, who were trying to to sound like Chuck Berry.

 

Same with Prince. He listened to artists who were influenced by Berry. so the inspiration is there, even if not directly.

Maybe like degrees of separation. Not many

with the Beatles, and quite a few with Prince.


Curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid get.


#8 LawrenceA

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Posted Today, 04:23 PM

It seems to me he was more influential on some groups than others.

Looks like he had more of an influence on the Beach Boys and the

Rolling Stones than the Beatles.

 

Prince came on the scene so many years after Berry you wonder how

much of an influence Berry could have been, there being so many

changes in music during those years. I would think that Hendrix and

funk would be bigger influences than Berry, but who knows?

 

You may be trying to draw direct influence too much. Listen to the Beatles earliest stuff, and it's blues-based rave-up rockers, which if not directly influenced by Berry, were influenced indirectly. As in, they tried to sound like Eddie Cochran or Buddy Holly, who were trying to to sound like Chuck Berry.

 

Same with Prince. He listened to artists who were influenced by Berry. so the inspiration is there, even if not directly.



#9 Vautrin

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Posted Today, 04:17 PM

I think it's Chuck Berry's unique guitar style, along with his vast composing skills, that made him such an outstanding influence in rock and roll music.

Mike Love said in his recent autobiography that he based his Beach Boy lyrics on Chuck Berry's style of writing. In a recent biography of Carl Wilson, it was stated that his guitar playing was primarily influenced by Chuck Berry and that the opening of Fun Fun Fun is a version of a Chuck Berry riff.

The Beach Boys style has been described as the harmonies of The Four Freshmen put over the musical style of Chuck Berry,which they actually did when they stole Sweet Little 16 and made it Surfin' USA without attributing anything initially to Chuck Berry.

Even though I had a collection of Chuck Berry original 45's when I was very young--my older brother managed to get a hold of them--I still missed out on a lot of his hit singles.

I learned the song Johnny B Goode from The Beach Boys live concert album and I learned the song Roll Over Beethoven from the Beatles Second Album. Those two songs were concert staples for my two favorite groups.

It seems to me he was more influential on some groups than others.

Looks like he had more of an influence on the Beach Boys and the

Rolling Stones than the Beatles.

 

Prince came on the scene so many years after Berry you wonder how

much of an influence Berry could have been, there being so many

changes in music during those years. I would think that Hendrix and

funk would be bigger influences than Berry, but who knows?


Curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid get.


#10 LawrenceA

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Posted Today, 04:14 PM

Are you saying his sound got more "white" as he progressed?

 

Well first off, I don't think Chuck Berry's sound ever progressed much at all. He played what he played and it never really changed too much.

 

And what I'm saying is was what I posted: Berry's sound had more influence on white, guitar-driven rock music than on black R&B music. There were a lot more white kids picking up guitars and trying to sound like Chuck Berry than there were black kids. 

 

But when Chuck Berry started, his music was considered "race music" or "black music", alongside Bo Diddley: guitar-driven blues (like BB King or Jimmy Reed) sped up with a swing beat (like Big Joe Turner). He also established the guitar as the predominant instrument in rock music, which previously had been the saxophone (listen to Bill Haley or other early rock acts, and you'll hear saxophones doing what would become the guitar solos). Other rock pioneers like Little Richard and Fats Domino were piano players, and so it was Berry and Diddley that brought the guitar to prominence. Of course, this is a simplified history, but it's true.


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#11 Vautrin

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Posted Today, 04:12 PM

There wasn't as much competition on the r&b chart. And I am certain he sold a lot more records to whites than he did to blacks. And those who saw him live were mostly white. In the '50s, how many black artists can you say that about? I have a few under-50 black acquaintances, and upon mentioning Berry's death, they barely know who he was. He had tremendous influence on  future white artists, but little influence on future black artists.

It probably took sales of more records to have a high position on

the Hot 100 than on the R&B chart, but my point was that Berry

was pretty popular with black record buyers during his mid 1950s

to early 1960s heyday. 


Curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid get.


#12 DownGoesFrazier

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Posted Today, 04:02 PM

I see what you mean. Berry did have more influence on the direction guitar-driven white rock took than the direction black R&B took. But when Berry started, that was a "black sound", as well. 

Are you saying his sound got more "white" as he progressed?



#13 LawrenceA

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Posted Today, 03:57 PM

Prince was an outlier. He was really unlike any other black artist. It looks like it's me against the world on this point.

Of course, my point is not politically correct.

 

I see what you mean. Berry did have more influence on the direction guitar-driven white rock took than the direction black R&B took. But when Berry started, that was a "black sound", as well. 



#14 Princess of Tap

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Posted Today, 03:52 PM

Prince was an outlier. He was really unlike any other black artist. It looks like it's me against the world on this point.
Of course, my point is not politically correct.


Boy, you can say the same thing about any great artist--they're not like anybody else because they're a genius--

For example, who's like Stevie Wonder, who's like James Brown, who's like Aretha Franklin,and who's like Michael Jackson?

#15 DownGoesFrazier

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Posted Today, 03:48 PM

I would say that Chuck Berry had a tremendous influence on Prince.

Prince was an outlier. He was really unlike any other black artist. It looks like it's me against the world on this point.

Of course, my point is not politically correct.



#16 Princess of Tap

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Posted Today, 03:46 PM

There wasn't as much competition on the r&b chart. And I am certain he sold a lot more records to whites than he did to blacks. And those who saw him live were mostly white. In the '50s, how many black artists can you say that about? I have a few under-50 black acquaintances, and upon mentioning Berry's death, they barely know who he was. He had tremendous influence on future white artists, but little influence on future black artists.


I would say that Chuck Berry had a tremendous influence on Prince.

#17 Princess of Tap

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Posted Today, 03:45 PM

Let's go to the charts. Actually Berry was as or more popular on the
Billboard R&B chart than he was on the Hot 100 chart. His hit singles
often went higher on R&B than Hot 100. He had three #1 singles on
R&B and only one #1 on Hot 100.

There were a lot of people contemporary with Berry like Fats Domino,
Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Elvis, etc. I would say of those, Berry
was likely the predominant influence on rock music, but not the sole
influence. I've noticed that when celebrities die their influence is
often exaggerated a bit.

I think it's Chuck Berry's unique guitar style, along with his vast composing skills, that made him such an outstanding influence in rock and roll music.

Mike Love said in his recent autobiography that he based his Beach Boy lyrics on Chuck Berry's style of writing. In a recent biography of Carl Wilson, it was stated that his guitar playing was primarily influenced by Chuck Berry and that the opening of Fun Fun Fun is a version of a Chuck Berry riff.

The Beach Boys style has been described as the harmonies of The Four Freshmen put over the musical style of Chuck Berry,which they actually did when they stole Sweet Little 16 and made it Surfin' USA without attributing anything initially to Chuck Berry.

Even though I had a collection of Chuck Berry original 45's when I was very young--my older brother managed to get a hold of them--I still missed out on a lot of his hit singles.

I learned the song Johnny B Goode from The Beach Boys live concert album and I learned the song Roll Over Beethoven from the Beatles Second Album. Those two songs were concert staples for my two favorite groups.

#18 DownGoesFrazier

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Posted Today, 03:38 PM

Let's go to the charts. Actually Berry was as or more popular on the

Billboard R&B chart than he was on the Hot 100 chart. His hit singles

often went higher on R&B than Hot 100. He had three #1 singles on

R&B and only one #1 on Hot 100. 

 

There were a lot of people contemporary with Berry like Fats Domino,

Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Elvis, etc. I would say of those, Berry

was likely the predominant influence on rock music, but not the sole

influence. I've noticed that when celebrities die their influence is

often exaggerated a bit. 

There wasn't as much competition on the r&b chart. And I am certain he sold a lot more records to whites than he did to blacks. And those who saw him live were mostly white. In the '50s, how many black artists can you say that about? I have a few under-50 black acquaintances, and upon mentioning Berry's death, they barely know who he was. He had tremendous influence on  future white artists, but little influence on future black artists.



#19 Vautrin

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Posted Today, 03:32 PM

Let's go to the charts. Actually Berry was as or more popular on the

Billboard R&B chart than he was on the Hot 100 chart. His hit singles

often went higher on R&B than Hot 100. He had three #1 singles on

R&B and only one #1 on Hot 100. 

 

There were a lot of people contemporary with Berry like Fats Domino,

Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Elvis, etc. I would say of those, Berry

was likely the predominant influence on rock music, but not the sole

influence. I've noticed that when celebrities die their influence is

often exaggerated a bit. 


Curse Sir Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid get.


#20 DownGoesFrazier

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Posted Today, 03:14 PM

Well said.   The point I'm seeing (yet again), is that DGF pats himself on the back for claiming to know so much about music, when he really doesn't.

You pat yourself on the back for claiming to know so much about reading posts, when you really don't..... I'm just looking at results. Because Berry's fans were predominantly white, whether or not his music had "black" elements is irrelevant to my point.......I know a lot of rock and soul trivia, and I know what I like and don't like. I know very little about the elements of music.






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