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What's Up with TCM ON-DEMAND? Again....???


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#21 Stephan55

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 08:25 PM

 

 

"2) Backlot??  What could TCM do to add to the core features of Firefox.

Mozilla, not TCM.

 

Come on, you're worrying me a bit here."

 

***********

I don't get this part of your post. Could you clarify.

Thanks

 

MovieCollectorOH was referring to my misdirected ramble about how TCM never responds to anyone here, and my mistaken perception that he may have an "in" with them in my previous post.

 

MCOH was talking about the subject matter at hand, and I was following a whole different train of thought.

 

When he said:

Maybe I'll drop them a line on this.

I was thinking he meant TCM, and NOT Firefox.

 

So I said:

So if you have discovered some special way to get through to any of them, aside from going on a cruise or "joining" that infernal "Backlot," inquiring minds would like to know about it.

Could you please elaborate?

 

My unrelated response probably either confused or amused him, so he said:

"...Come on, you're worrying me a bit here."

 

I was so focused on TCM being the initiator of this latest missalignment that I read and responded to what I thought I saw in his post and not about what he was actually saying.

I was tired, so that should be a lesson for me not to reply to anyone when I am not thinking straight.


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"We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?"  "...They're probably watching me..."

 

I have been told that I have a tendency toward verbosity.


#22 BillS

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 01:19 PM

 

"2) Backlot??  What could TCM do to add to the core features of Firefox.

Mozilla, not TCM.

 

Come on, you're worrying me a bit here."

 

***********

I don't get this part of your post. Could you clarify.

Thanks



#23 MovieCollectorOH

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 12:12 AM

".....explicit entries so far, not implicit entries.  That could be easily fixed (and explained)"

 

Uh huh... Yeah???? :unsure:

You've got me a bit stymied there MCOH. I know that you know what you are talking about, but I'm not sure that I know what you are talking about.

I mean, I understand "implicit" and "explicit" as defined and normally used. But not exactly how that transfers to the topic we are discussing....

 

explicit: very clear and complete, leaving no doubt about the meaning, clearly expressed or readily observable.

implicit: understood though not clearly or directly stated, means implied or expressed.

 

Had no idea that there were entries that were "implied", and entries that were "explicit,"  but then I am really still a novice to all of this, and know next to nothing about how computer code actually works.

 

"Maybe I'll drop them a line on this."

 

Oh yeah? Do you have some special access to TCM that most of the rest of us don't?

 

1) I was thinking about a possible clarification/addition to the Exception List on the Privacy tab of the Firefox configuration settings:

 

Explicit: only those entries in aforementioned Exception list (visited website).  This would include cookies set only by visited website.

-This is the existing part.  I just think Firefox should clarify here that entries here are only going to allow cookies from visited website.

 

Implicit: NOT entered into the exception list (visited site), but referred to by those in exception list.  This would include cookies set by ads, feeds, misc content you don't want.

-I think Firefox should add a checkbox next to each exeption entry so the user can specify whether or not to allow cookies from third party sites

-These should probably also be deleted when that tab or window is closed.

 

Again, that is why I use add-ons to manage this.

 

2) Backlot??  What could TCM do to add to the core features of Firefox.

Mozilla, not TCM.

 

Come on, you're worrying me a bit here.


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#24 Stephan55

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 08:04 PM

I hate it when I find out too much about something and that is the case now with TCM. They have given new meaning to "Back-Lot". I should not be surprised or upset about any privacy invasion with a computer. I do have the option to not use or visit a site. At the moment feel a bit betrayed by TCM.

 

I am now experimenting with use of two entirely different browsers, one to use exclusively for TCM.

The computer I watch movies on the most is a Mac and Safari will not work with TCM as presently configured yet Firefox does.

 

And, there is still nothing wrong with just reading a good book.

(paper & ink variety - not one downloaded to an invasive device).

I know exactly what you are talking about.

 

As we three, have been discussing this here, there are probably oodles more TCM ON-DEMAND users who are feeling the same way. Especially so when they discover how and why this latest issue happened!!!

Betrayed, you bet.

 

I think probably more so here because I watch most of the older movies to recapture some "warm" and "fuzzy" feeling that I had when I was much younger and first saw them. Because TCM comes off with the impression that we are all here because we love these old movies, is disarming.

We let our guard down and get taken in. Not realizing that TCM is just as voracious to capitalize off of us as any other commercial entity. They just try to do it in a "friendlier" way.

And after inviting RO, BM, into my home for all these years (and now Tiffany) I do feel betrayed, not by just the stupidity and neglect that has caused and allows most of the issues here (that mostly annoys, frustrates and sometimes angers me), but this recent deliberate  action by TCM is actually hurtful. Like being betrayed by some family member that you knew would do some really dumb things, but not with any deliberate or hurtful intent. 

 

Betrayed is the perfect descriptor for my feelings about all this!!!


"We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?"  "...They're probably watching me..."

 

I have been told that I have a tendency toward verbosity.


#25 Stephan55

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 07:45 PM

So in other words it only processes the exceptions list as explicit entries so far, not implicit entries.  That could be easily fixed (and explained) if they labeled the Exceptions list as "explicit exceptions" and also added a checkbox "allow impicit" not to each user defined entry in the exceptions list.  So krxd.net would only be allowed if tcm.com was in the entry list and had "allow implicit" checked next to it, but not explicitly under any other conditions.  Maybe I'll drop them a line on this.

 

 

 

I think you are referring to persistent cookies here.

 

".....explicit entries so far, not implicit entries.  That could be easily fixed (and explained)"

 

Uh huh... Yeah???? :unsure:

You've got me a bit stymied there MCOH. I know that you know what you are talking about, but I'm not sure that I know what you are talking about.

I mean, I understand "implicit" and "explicit" as defined and normally used. But not exactly how that transfers to the topic we are discussing....

 

explicit: very clear and complete, leaving no doubt about the meaning, clearly expressed or readily observable.

implicit: understood though not clearly or directly stated, means implied or expressed.

 

Had no idea that there were entries that were "implied", and entries that were "explicit,"  but then I am really still a novice to all of this, and know next to nothing about how computer code actually works.

 

"Maybe I'll drop them a line on this."

 

Oh yeah? Do you have some special access to TCM that most of the rest of us don't?

I have been trying, for years now, to get TCM to respond to just one of my concerns sent through their "Help" link. Never, not once, have they ever more than generically responded to a single email, phone call, or hard copy letter that I have taken the time to write and mail.

And, as far as I am aware, NO one, especially not on these "Technical issue" "Problem" broads has received any response from TCM, aside from a few comments by moderators.

 

So if you have discovered some special way to get through to any of them, aside from going on a cruise or "joining" that infernal "Backlot," inquiring minds would like to know about it.

Could you please elaborate?

 

 

"I think you are referring to persistent cookies here."

 

Yeah, maybe... Or maybe it could be one of those Zombie cookies that I just looked up and read about???

 

My first ever experience with the term "cookie" as used in the world of computers, was back in the '90s when this guy I knew was showing me his new PC game. I don't remember the name of the game (some fantasy role playing thing) but in it he said he had discovered some hidden "cookies" and he showed me that if he did a certain thing that his character would receive some sort of "gift," extra power, a magic sword, immunity, or longer virtual life, some such as that. But he made it clear that only a few people knew about this as it was a little "cookie" that the game programer made for those that could discover it!

It sounded sort cute at that time. Not something to be "afraid of" or "loath...."

 

I just had no idea back then how such a "tasty" term could be hijacked and used for such a malevolent purpose....

 

Session cookies
Persistent cookies
Secure cookies
HttpOnly cookies
SameSite cookies
Third-party cookies
Supercookies
Zombie cookies

.....

For everything you wished that you didn't need to know about cookies, and didn't know that you needed to know!
https://en.wikipedia...iki/HTTP_cookie


"We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?"  "...They're probably watching me..."

 

I have been told that I have a tendency toward verbosity.


#26 BillS

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 11:39 AM

I hate it when I find out too much about something and that is the case now with TCM. They have given new meaning to "Back-Lot". I should not be surprised or upset about any privacy invasion with a computer. I do have the option to not use or visit a site. At the moment feel a bit betrayed by TCM.

 

I am now experimenting with use of two entirely different browsers, one to use exclusively for TCM.

The computer I watch movies on the most is a Mac and Safari will not work with TCM as presently configured yet Firefox does.

 

And, there is still nothing wrong with just reading a good book.

(paper & ink variety - not one downloaded to an invasive device).


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#27 MovieCollectorOH

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:47 AM

Regarding add "tcm.com" to the exceptions list and click "allow" or "allow per session"

I've already tried that and it doesn't work. TCM may not require every one of their 3rd Party Vendors Cookies  before it allows one to sign-in and a movie to load, but I haven't figured out which of their long list may be the critical ones.

And the cookies and vendors that I have checked out are quite nasty. I wouldn't want them to be added to any exceptions list.

 

So in other words it only processes the exceptions list as explicit entries so far, not implicit entries.  That could be easily fixed (and explained) if they labeled the Exceptions list as "explicit exceptions" and also added a checkbox "allow impicit" not to each user defined entry in the exceptions list.  So krxd.net would only be allowed if tcm.com was in the entry list and had "allow implicit" checked next to it, but not explicitly under any other conditions.  Maybe I'll drop them a line on this.

 

 

Some that I've read in other forums have apparently embedded themselves in persons PCs and they are pulling their hair trying to get rid of them. I'm not clear about what all they have tried to remove them.

 

I think you are referring to persistent cookies here.


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#28 Stephan55

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 09:15 AM

Give it a try and see if this works for you too, then let us know.  That sounds correct though.

 

Each browser has its own temporary files or cache directory where it stores/retrieves information about your browsing.  That is the stated objective, but there is no mechanism in place to assure or enforce thisDeviating from this ever so slightly is the prompt to import all the bookmarks from other browsers upon fresh installation.  There is also nothing to stop a browser from going through another browser's bookmarks, or temp or cache files without you knowing about it.  [cough cough Google  cough Micro$oft]

 

If you want to keep it all Firefox, you could try going into the Preferences:Privacy tab, block third party cookies by default, and also add "tcm.com" to the exceptions list and click "allow" or "allow per session".  It isn't immediately clear to me if that would work in this scenario or not.  [whether the exception list applies to third-party cookies in addition to visited website cookies]  That is why I use add-ons to manage this bit.  I don't suspect Firefox of any wrongdoing, I just don't know how complete this part of the browser is.

You stated that in one paragraph perfectly!

 

keep it all Firefox... That is what I am now doing!

 

Regarding add "tcm.com" to the exceptions list and click "allow" or "allow per session"

I've already tried that and it doesn't work. TCM may not require every one of their 3rd Party Vendors Cookies  before it allows one to sign-in and a movie to load, but I haven't figured out which of their long list may be the critical ones.

And the cookies and vendors that I have checked out are quite nasty. I wouldn't want them to be added to any exceptions list.

 

Some that I've read in other forums have apparently embedded themselves in persons PCs and they are pulling their hair trying to get rid of them. I'm not clear about what all they have tried to remove them. I know they didn't get them from TCM, but these vendors aren't just trying to push their wares from the ON-DEMAND website.

One krxd.net is particularly persistent. It's the only one that stays when I clear the Cookies during an ON-DEMAND session. But I've managed make it "go away" (so far anyway) by changing my Privacy settings back, after I'm through watching ON-DEMAND.

At least it's not there when I reload the browser.

 

I'm really learning to distrust TCM....

 

EDIT:

 

"...nothing to stop a browser from going through another browser's bookmarks, or temp or cache files without you knowing about it.  [cough cough Google  cough Micro$oft]...   "

 

Forgot to mention that since this happened, and my experimenting with both Chrome & Firefox browsers have allowed 3rd Party Cookies to "attack" and "infest" both of them,  I have on occassion, while in Regular Firefox, with Settings set to Accept 3rd Party Cookies: ALWAYS

seen google.com show up under cookies. Since google wasn't present with the original bunch of TCM ON-DEMAND cookies, and only shows up in the Regular Firefox browser  on occassion, I am going to make the assumption that it did migrate over to Firefox from the Chrome browser. 

That's Google for you. But if they can do it then so can others...

That is unless they have paid TCM to allow them to be on their 3rd Party Cookies list. But I do think in this case that isn't likely as if that were so, they would be showing up everytime, as others have, and not just occassionally.
So, as MovieCollector pointed out, browser Cookie Jars are not immune to other browser's Cookies....


"We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?"  "...They're probably watching me..."

 

I have been told that I have a tendency toward verbosity.


#29 Stephan55

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 08:58 AM

Am I keeping up with the discussion?

~ The issue is because the browser settings are not allowing cookies from third party.

~ We have to lower the bar of privacy in order for TCM streaming to function.

~ This appears to be a fairly recent requirement made by TCM, implemented in their server settings.

 

If I have that part correct then please let me know if this is also correct:

~ Each browser has it's own cookie jar.

~ Using a browser exclusively for TCM would gather cookies in only that browser's jar.

~ Using a different browser with higher settings for other internet activity would not use TCM cookies.

The first three answers are: Yes, Yes, and unfortunately, Yes.

 

I know that my Firefox settings worked fine with TCM ON-DEMAND viewing from Aug 2, to almost 2 years backward (for as long as I've been using Firefox) . So TCM made the "cookie changes" starting the program day of Aug. 3, 2017.

See my long winded post a few back, I've attached some images that will hopefully make it easy to switch your settings back and forth.

 

The last three answers are: Yes & No, Yes & No, and Yes and No.

 

Since Sunday, I have been been experimenting, watching TCM ON-DEMAND movies with both Chrome and Firefox and between Incognito Mode and Privacy Mode, while using ON-DEMAND in the regular non-private browser.  And I have been carefully checking for "cookies" during each step of the processes. In each browser.

 

First, even with the Settings changed to favor TCM ON-DEMAND viewing, neither Chrome nor Firefox will be allowed to stream when in Incognito or Privacy Mode (respectively). There will be No "Sign-In Button" visible, and the "Spinning Load Icon" will perpetually spin as before.

However, in regular Browser mode, with the Settings changed to favor TCM, which would be
chrome://settings/content/cookies

"Block third-party cookies" (slider) >NO

 

Or for Firefox: Options, Privacy, "Accept third-party cookies: Always"

 

Then either browser will be "allowed" to stream TCM ON-DEMAND movies, the "Sign-In Button" will be visible, to link to your service provider, and the movies will  (if everything is as it should be), be allowed to load "normally." (since this is TCM, we're dealing with, there  can always be some other screwball issue to affect the normal operation).

 

However, when the browser is set to be TCM ON-DEMAND "friendly," then that browser is bombarded by dozens of 3rd Party vendors, and over a 100 separate cookies.

 

Now, regarding the last three "Yes" & "No" answers

 

~ Each browser has it's own cookie jar.

 

If we are talking about apples & oranges and totally different browsers, i.e. Chrome vs Firefox, then the answer "appears" to be YES.

i.e. when Chrome is set to be ON-DEMAND "friendly," while Firefox is set with the "safer" Privacy settings, then one will see a bunch of cookies in the Chrome browser, but NOT in the Firefox browser. And vice-versa.

 

But if we are talking about apples & apples, such as the same browser in two different modes being used simultaneously, then the answer is NO

i.e. Chrome in regular mode with settings that allow ON-DEMAND viewing, and Chrome in Incognito mode. Even though Incognito mode is Not allowed to view TCM ON-DEMAND, some of the Cookies that are allowed in regular mode will also be allowed into and show up in the Incognito mode because they apparently share the same cookie jar. That is because changing Settings in Regular mode, also changes them in Incognito mode, and vice versa. One cannot have different security settings in the same browser. Whether it be apples & apples (Chrome) or oranges & oranges (Firefox).

That said, Incognito mode, (in Chrome) and Privacy mode (Firefox) will be somewhat safer than regular mode regardless of the settings because they inhibit a sites ability to inject some of those cookies in the first place. 

 

However, because all browsers live on the hard drive, that is where the cookies also abide. And if one of them ends up being particularly malicious, it may have the potential to cross over into other files and folders, and affect other browsers. For example, if the PC gets infected with a virus, or locked up by ransom malware while a particular browser is in use, then every file in the system has the potential to become infected or encrypted, not just the files in that particular browsers folder. So in that sense, each Browser is a portal to your entire system.

 

 

~ Using a browser exclusively for TCM would gather cookies in only that browser's jar.

 

If we are talking about apples & oranges, and totally different browsers, i.e. Chrome vs Firefox, then the answer again "appears" to be YES. (see rationale above)

 

But if we are talking about apples & apples, such as the same browser in two different modes being used simultaneously, then the answer is NO (see rationale above)

 

However, please review the rationale provided above, especially the last cautionary paragraph.

 

 

~ Using a different browser with higher settings for other internet activity would not use TCM cookies.

 

Once again, If we are talking about apples & oranges, and totally different browsers, i.e. Chrome vs Firefox, then the answer again "appears" to be YES. (see rationale above)

 

But if we are talking about apples & apples, such as the same browser in two different modes being used simultaneously, then the answer is NO (see rationale above)

 

And again, please review the rationale provided above, especially the last cautionary paragraph.

 

 

Based on the last few days of checking, it appears to be possible to have one separate  browser (Firefox or Chrome) with higher security settings, reserved for general internet use, and one browser with much weaker settings, used exclusively for TCM ON-DEMAND viewing in use at the same time, and one will not overtly affect the other.

 

However, I think that Firefox is the inherently most secure of the two for internet browsing. As Firefox doesn't try to keep their own cookies on your system.

 

Whereas Just opening Google Chrome invites three of their cookies to "live" in your PC. 

 

google-analytics.com (1 cookie)

google.com (Channel ID, 1 cookie)

www.google.com (Cache Storage, Database storage, Service Workers)

 

Since yesterday, I haven't even touched Google anymore, I have been keeping two versions of Firefox in Privacy mode and regular Firefox open at the same time. I keep one screen set on Options, and when watching TCM ON-DEMAND in regular mode, I simply change that one setting. I make a habit of regularly clearing both the Cookies in Privacy, and the Cached Web Content in Advanced, after I am signed in to watch a movie, they will collect again, but I can limit their number by routinely reloading and clearing both of those mentioned. Then when I'm not watching ON-DEMAND and am doing anything else on line, I quickly change the

Firefox: Options, Privacy, "Accept third-party cookies: Always" Back to "Accept third-party cookies: From Visited"

Reload and Clear Cookies and Cached Web Content, and I'm good to go!

 

I know that this is a slightly more cumbersome process, but I feel more secure with Firefox than with Google. And it is simpler to clear the Firefox browser and Cache (fewer clicks) than with Chrome.

 

I will say this, even though this works, I'm finding that I "resent" having to go through it, and I am now very apprehensive toward TCM because of it.
I have a "what are they going to try next?"  attitude, since they have proven that they value their 3rd Party vendors more than they value the privacy of their loyal subscriber/viewers. TCM now ranks down there next to Microsoft. IMO


"We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?"  "...They're probably watching me..."

 

I have been told that I have a tendency toward verbosity.


#30 MovieCollectorOH

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 07:26 AM

Am I keeping up with the discussion?

~ The issue is because the browser settings are not allowing cookies from third party.

~ We have to lower the bar of privacy in order for TCM streaming to function.

~ This appears to be a fairly recent requirement made by TCM, implemented in their server settings.

 

If I have that part correct then please let me know if this is also correct:

~ Each browser has it's own cookie jar.

~ Using a browser exclusively for TCM would gather cookies in only that browser's jar.

~ Using a different browser with higher settings for other internet activity would not use TCM cookies.

 

Give it a try and see if this works for you too, then let us know.  That sounds correct though.

 

Each browser has its own temporary files or cache directory where it stores/retrieves information about your browsing.  That is the stated objective, but there is no mechanism in place to assure or enforce this.  Deviating from this ever so slightly is the prompt to import all the bookmarks from other browsers upon fresh installation.  There is also nothing to stop a browser from going through another browser's bookmarks, or temp or cache files without you knowing about it.  [cough cough Google  cough Micro$oft]

 

If you want to keep it all Firefox, you could try going into the Preferences:Privacy tab, block third party cookies by default, and also add "tcm.com" to the exceptions list and click "allow" or "allow per session".  It isn't immediately clear to me if that would work in this scenario or not.  [whether the exception list applies to third-party cookies in addition to visited website cookies]  That is why I use add-ons to manage this bit.  I don't suspect Firefox of any wrongdoing, I just don't know how complete this part of the browser is.


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#31 BillS

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 01:59 AM

Am I keeping up with the discussion?

~ The issue is because the browser settings are not allowing cookies from third party.

~ We have to lower the bar of privacy in order for TCM streaming to function.

~ This appears to be a fairly recent requirement made by TCM, implemented in their server settings.

 

If I have that part correct then please let me know if this is also correct:

~ Each browser has it's own cookie jar.

~ Using a browser exclusively for TCM would gather cookies in only that browser's jar.

~ Using a different browser with higher settings for other internet activity would not use TCM cookies.

 



#32 MovieCollectorOH

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 11:19 PM

Thank you so much for your advice and the links (in both posts). I will download and experiment with the apps. I respect your experience and your opinions, and if Firefox trusts it, then it must be trust worthy.

 

 

If Firefox lists it, that just means it has passed their screening procedure.  The point is that most add-ons are written by only one person.  So they are truly a mixed bag of usability, mostly for the better though.  That is why you rely at least in part on the comments from the community on Firefox's page for each add-on.

 

The benefit of the EFF Privacy Badger add-on I suggested is that it is written by a real team.  There are several programmers at their organization, each with different skills, and it looks as if three or more people of the same mindset actually worked on Privacy Badger as part of an organization-sanctioned project.  That and plenty of vision and direction from any number of the legal council and other privacy-minded individuals on staff:

https://www.eff.org/about/staff

 

Also the open source code is available for anyone who wants to see it for themselves or possibly submit further contributions to it for review.  So being a team effort that is also open to the public for scrutiny, they helped to catch each other's mistakes, as well as contribute to developing the concept to what it is now.

 

If you haven't yet, scroll down on EFF's Privacy Badger download page to see the FAQ section.  They have taken this to a whole new level for just another Firefox add-on.

https://www.eff.org/privacybadger


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#33 Stephan55

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 11:04 PM

Okay, good.  I recently mentioned third party cookies somewhere else here, unfortunately in a joking way.  If you had only tried it then...

 

If allowing third party cookies works for you, then never mind what I suggested in my previous post.  [BTW, nothing "virtual" about it, it just masks the identity of your browser]

 

In your case it appears to be that a server script is being interrupted because certain cookies are not being set, rather than browser identity not being matched due to obsolete browser list on server.  Maybe only one or two of those cookies are actually causing that to happen.

 

Here are the two Firefox add-ons I use to do my ad-blocking.  I try to keep this simple, and also not break a bunch of sites by default.  Together these two add-ons take care of the more invasive tracking cookies, while leaving behind the ones related to the function of the website, as well as some of the more benign ones:

 

Privacy Badger [or go to EFF.org and look for the link to this at the Tools menu at the top of their website] -  this add-on is put together by a recognized software privacy advocate group.

 

uBlock Origin  - this add-on is currently very well received among the Firefox community.

Thank you so much for your advice and the links (in both posts). I will download and experiment with the apps. I respect your experience and your opinions, and if Firefox trusts it, then it must be trust worthy.

 

Yes, you did ask if I had 3rd Party Cookies "blocked" in my annoying Ben "Backlot" Pop-up thread.

I replied that I did.

I would like to block them altogether, but with the use of Firefox and TCM, and  some other sites I have allowed them temporary access, only in respect to the site visited, and only until that browsing session ended.

I have maintained the same security settings on all of the browsers I have been using for the last three plus years.
They seem to offer the best compromise between "security" and "general" browsing.
Since I began using Firefox two years ago I have had really no major and very few minor issues with invasive cookies, Adware, PUPs, Malware, etc. But I am pretty conservative in my browsing habits and have learned after a couple of past bad experiences to be very careful.
I keep my antivirus up-to-date and also scan everything that I download with Malwarebytes.

My browser settings have had no "visibly" negative effect upon my streaming video from any source (yet), even TCM ON-DEMAND (until recently), which I also began watching regularly back in Jan. 2015.
With that in mind the thought that my browser and TCM's cookies was the cause of this last snafu was far from my mind. Especially since something with the same symptoms occurred for about 3-4 weeks with TCM ON-DEMAND within the last year, that apparently "self"-corrected.

I am sensitive of my browser settings when I approach a "new" site, but with long term use of ON-DEMAND, none of the numerous (minor and major) issues that I've encountered in the past have apparently been related to my browser settings.

 

I am, quite frankly, very surprised that TCM has taken this route and changed their ON-DEMAND access requirements as they have.

I do think that this aggressive attitude in pushing all of these cookies on their viewer/subscribers is going to eventually backfire for them. Some of these 3rd Party vendors, that I have already investigated, have a very bad rap in other forums.

 

I'd grown to really love the channel over these many years... The programing and the philosophy "Original, Uncut, and Commercial Free."  When I first became familiar with the station I wondered "How can they do that?"

 

I pay my provider extra so I can receive TCM.
I have been a long time supporter of Public radio and Public television, and would support TCM with donations, if it were necessary to keep it afloat.

But I abhor being taken advantage of. And I find "spyware," "malware," "adware," "PUP's," and  "cookies" used in such a fashion to be absolutely repugnant.

I am beginning to seriously feel that the TCM that I once "respected and admired" is slipping down the "dark side" by following this path. 

 

I've read through TCM's "Privacy Policy" and realize how ambiguously liberal it is with our data. Which is another reason why I would never consent to join anything "TCM", aside from this message board.

 

Sadly, It really is all about money.


"We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?"  "...They're probably watching me..."

 

I have been told that I have a tendency toward verbosity.


#34 MovieCollectorOH

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 08:09 AM

Okay, good.  I recently mentioned third party cookies somewhere else here, unfortunately in a joking way.  If you had only tried it then...

 

If allowing third party cookies works for you, then never mind what I suggested in my previous post.  [BTW, nothing "virtual" about it, it just masks the identity of your browser]

 

In your case it appears to be that a server script is being interrupted because certain cookies are not being set, rather than browser identity not being matched due to obsolete browser list on server.  Maybe only one or two of those cookies are actually causing that to happen.

 

Here are the two Firefox add-ons I use to do my ad-blocking.  I try to keep this simple, and also not break a bunch of sites by default.  Together these two add-ons take care of the more invasive tracking cookies, while leaving behind the ones related to the function of the website, as well as some of the more benign ones:

 

Privacy Badger [or go to EFF.org and look for the link to this at the Tools menu at the top of their website] -  this add-on is put together by a recognized software privacy advocate group.

 

uBlock Origin  - this add-on is currently very well received among the Firefox community.


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#35 Stephan55

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 05:12 AM

@ Stephan

​I don't have any passwords created for my Directv account, so try working through this, it will basically prove or disprove my theory that the server isn't configured to work with all browsers.

Try this add-on for Firefox.  It is the latest and greatest version of this add-on, and works on the newest version of Firefox for me (Firefox V54).

https://addons.mozil...itcher-firefox/

 

The goal is to try spoofing a different user agent string for now (make Firefox report itself as a different browser than Firefox).  Once you install this add-on, there will be a new icon at the far upper-right section of the Firefox window, along with your other add-on icons.  This one initially looks like a blue globe.  Click on it and its pop-up comes up.  Click on the Google Chrome selector in the Desktop Browser section.  The blue globe Icon (indicating default browser user agent) will change to Google Chrome's icon. 

 

Click on the screen anywhere outside that popup to exit.  [*Don't click on the checkbox at the bottom left.  It is the reset-to-default or undo button, they just have the wrong ISO symbol in there.]

I have verified the user agent string indeed does change to Google Chrome's with this link:

http://mybrowserinfo.com/

 

Here is my native user agent string - I am running Linux Mint (based on Ubuntu Linux), and Firefox 54:

Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux x86_64; rv:54.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/54.0

 

Here is my spoofed Chrome user agent string - it even says I am using Windows  (LOL..fat chance):

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/47.0.2526.73 Safari/537.36

 

 

With it temporarily changed to Google Chrome, try logging in to TCM again.

 

To revert back to default Firefox user agent string, click on the add-on icon again and click on the small checkbox at lower left corner of the popup.  This will reset it back to default Firefox.  You can verify at this same link:

http://mybrowserinfo.com/

Thank for this, but I don't think it is now necessary for the TCM ON-DEMAND "sign-in" issue. (see my previous "long-winded" post).

 

But I am curious whether this creates a "virtual reality" browser?

If so, I'm wondering if it was employed with TCM ON-DEMAND, where would the numerous 3rd Party Vendor cookies now go?

 

If they disappear into some "virtual reality" void, not affecting the users PC and their Privacy at all, while still allowing the individual the benefit of accessing and watching a movie from TCM ON-DEMAND, or from any source, then that would be a terrific!


"We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?"  "...They're probably watching me..."

 

I have been told that I have a tendency toward verbosity.


#36 Stephan55

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 04:04 AM

8/7/2017 UPDATE:

 

I think that I have solved the riddle of "Why Firefox Stopped Working with TCM ON-DEMAND" ....
And Yes, TCM initiated the "change" and it was insidiously deliberate.

 

Yesterday I updated my Google Chrome browser to the latest version (v. 60.0.3112.90 (Official Build) (64-bit) released 8/2/2017).

I made sure that Adobe Flash was still current (version 26.0.0.137, released 6/30/2017).

I then examined all of the settings to confirm that they were still the same.

Afterward I opened the TCM ON-DEMAND site, and to my surprise, the "Sign-In" Button was still missing, and the little "Open-Lock" icon was still present. Clicking on a movie only caused the little "Load" icon to ineffectually spin.
The screen looked exactly like my Mozilla Firefox screen. Both dysfunctional for watching anything from TCM ON-DEMAND.

 

After hearing how Chrome still worked with TCM ON-DEMAND from others, I was a little concerned and began checking anything and everything on that browser and contrasted and compared any discovery with similar settings in my Firefox browser.

 

When hovering my cursor over a tiny sprite on the right side of the upper window bar, it opened up with a message stating "This page [TCM ON-DEMAND] was prevented from setting cookies." 

So I went back and reexamined Chromes "Cookie" settings. They were the same as they were on Firefox, and they had both at one time worked with TCM ON-DEMAND. The "New" Chrome is a little confusing as in some settings it uses a slider instead of just plainly letting you know that by moving it in one direction or the other (Left or Right) you are either saying "Yes" or "No" to a specific change. But I began to experiment with them, one at a time, and then reload TCM ON-DEMAND to see if any change made a difference.
One did.

 

When I moved the slider next to "Block third-party cookies (Prevents third-party websites from saving and reading cookie data)"  From Right to Left, I had changed the setting from No to Yes "(Allows third-party cookies....)."
 

With the previous Cookies Setting and the Chrome browser just opened, I saw the following 3 Google Cookies present:

 

google-analytics.com (1 cookie)
google.com (Channel ID, 1 cookie)
www.google.com (Cache Storage, Database storage, Service Workers)

 

Just Clicking on the dysfunctional TCM MOVIES ON-DEMAND website added 10 more cookies (for a total of 13):

 

i.cdn.turner.com (Flash data)
tcm.com (6 cookies)
www.tcm.com (4 cookies, Local storage)

 

With the Settings newly changed, I reloaded the Chrome browser and then reloaded the TCM ON-DEMAND movie page, and suddenly the old familiar "Sign-in button" miraculously reappeared, and the Little "Open Lock" icon next to it was now a "Closed Lock" icon.

 

However, the act of Changing the Settings so that the  ON-DEMAND "Sign-In" button would reappear Added  43 more cookies (56 cookies before even "Signing-In" to watch a movie!) 

 

I then proceeded to load and watch a movie without any visible hiccups.

It was RECORD OF A TENEMENT GENTLEMAN (1947) and ran 72 minutes.

 

Upon completion of that one TCM ON-DEMAND viewing  I counted a total of 105 Insidious Cookies from dozens of 3rd Party Venders from both Google Chrome and TCM ON-DEMAND. I have listed them below:

 

33across. com (1 cookie)
addthis.com (1 cookie)
adnxs.com (2 cookies)
adsrvr.org (2 cookies)
advertising.com (2 cookies)
afy11.net (1 cookie)
agkn.com (2 cookies)
api.autopilothq.com (1 cookie)
aspen.turner.com (1 cookie)
bing.com (1 cookie)
bluekai.com (2 cookies)
bs.serving-sys.com (1 cookie)
c.bing.com (2 cookies)
cardlytics.com (1 cookie)
cdns.us1.gigya.com (local storage)
cox.demdex.net (1 cookie)
demdex.net (3 cookies)
dotomi.com (1 cookie)
doubleclick.net (Channael ID, 2 cookies)
dpm.demdex.net (1 cookie)
facebook.com (1 cookie)
fwmrm.net (8 cookies)
gigya.com (4 cookies)
idm.east.cox.net (3 cookies, Local storage)
imrworldwide.com (1 cookie)
krxd.net (1 cookie)
mathtag.com (2 cookies)
media6degrees.com (2 cookies)
mxptint.net (1 cookie)
quantserve.com (2 cookies)
rfihub.com (3 cookies)
rlcdn.com (3 cookies)
rubiconproject.com (3 cookies)
scorecardreserach.com (2 cookies)
serving-sys.com (2 cookies)
sp.auth.adobe.com (6 cookies, Local storage)
spotxchange.com (1 cookie)
sundaysky.com (1 cookie)
tap.rubiconproject.com (1 cookie)
tapad.com (2 cookies)
tcm.com (6 cookies)
tubemogul.com (1 cookie)
twitter.com (2 cookies)
undertone.com (1 cookie)
videoamp.com (1 cookie)
w55c/net (1 cookie)
www.tcm.com (14 cookies, Local storage)
z.cdn.turner.com (Flash data)

 

I was astounded as my previous experiences watching a TCM ON-DEMAND movie with Firefox only required a few cookies (generally no more than a dozen) to run the program. And ALL were promptly deleted when I closed that Firefox session (as none were ever present when I reopened the browser afterward.

 

By contrast, with these "new" settings, evidently recently "imposed" by TCM to watch TCM ON-DEMAND, these cookies are allowed to remain on "our" systems, monitoring whatever they can, indefinitely.
That is unless they are repetitively "cleared" (Removed) after each Chrome browsing session.

 

Granted, a very few of these Cookies can be deemed essential to the process of accessing and delivering the video from the website (i.e. for the browser (from Google), from TCM, COX, etc. ), But the vast majority I am totally unfamiliar and have no idea of who or what they are.

I have never used Twitter, or Facebook, so why are their cookies there. I'm using Chrome, not Bing, so why is MS intruding into my system with that cookie.
Some, such as advertising.com, and quantserve.com, etc. sort of reveal what they might be doing by their title. But I will have to perform an extensive net search to discover what all these 3rd Party vendors do, so I can attempt to make a reasonable association between them and TCM.

My gut is telling me that I will likely discover that they are not all just "affiliates" with TCM, but rather they pay TCM for access to their servers so they can gain access to TCM's subscriber base and secrete their "cookies" into our machines, to monitor our activities for their own marketing and corporate gain.

Google does this with their own cookies, which is why I don't like Chrome. MS does this extensively with Windows 10, which is why Win 7 Pro will be my last windows OS. Many websites are sponsored by "cookies" so why would TCM be any different.

They are a "business" and becomes ever painfully obvious that they see us as no more than dollar signs.

 

 

My next "experiment," was to make a few similar "Settings" changes in my Firefox browser, to see if they might yield similar results with TCM ON-DEMAND.

Again, One did....

 

In Firefox, under the PRIVACY Settings, I eventually changed the line:

"Accept third-party cookies: From visited (sites) "  to:
"Accept third-party cookies:  ALWAYS

 

After reloading Firefox, and then reloading TCM ON-DEMAND

The "Sign-In" Button suddenly reappeared (just as it did in Chrome) and along with it were dozens of cookies from 27 different "3rd Party" Venders, All courtesy of the TCM ON-DEMAND website.

And this was BEFORE I loaded an ON-DEMAND movie and watched while using the Firefox browser.

By comparing those in Firefox with the vendors and cookies that had suddenly popped up with Chrome, I was able to rule out the cookies that were associated with Google, when using Chrome.

With Firefox, they were all associated with TCM.

 

The following is a list of those TCM 27 vendors with cookies from:

adnxs.com
adsrvr.org
afy11.net
api.autopilothq.com
bluekai.com
cdns.us1.gigya.com
demdex.net
doubleclick.net
dpm.demdex.net
facebook.com
gigya.com
imrworldwide.com
krxd.net
mathtag.com
rlcdn.com
rubiconproject.com
scorecardresearch.com
sp.auth.adobe.com
spotxchange.com
tapad.com
tcm.com
tubemogul.com
twitter.com
undertone.com
videoamp.com
w55c.net

 

Most of these sites are 3rd party "affiliates" with TCM.com and ON-DEMAND, and they DEMAND that their cookies remain forever on your PC if you want to access the TCM ON-DEMAND site, even Before you attempt to Live Stream or Watch a TCM ON-DEMAND movie.

 

These cookies will remain on your system monitoring whatever they can, unless they are repetitively "cleared" (Removed) after each Chrome or Firefox browsing session.
If using Chrome or Firefox for TCM ON-DEMAND, I Strongly advise to clear all cookies before and after each movie watched!!!

And When finished with a TCM movie viewing session I STRONGLY ADVISE TO REVERT YOUR PRIVACY/SECURITY SETTINGS BACK TO NOT ALLOWING EITHER BROWSER TO ALWAYS ACCEPT or ALWAYS ALLOW THIRD PARTY COOKIES, BECAUSE WITH TCM, ALWAYS, MEANS ALWAYS!!!!

 

FIREFOX is a more Secure Browser than Google Chrome, i.e. unlike Google, they do NOT (yet anyway) insert their own Cookies into your system.

FIrefox was created by us, for us, for and by persons that still have respect for personal privacy.
They operate on donations, not corporate profit. I support them with a few dollars every year, and I suggest that any one who values having a browser like Firefox available to do likewise.

Firefox is also much simpler to "clean-up" than Chrome, after a TCM ON-DEMAND video session.

 

So sadly the "apparent" conclusion to all of this is that persons "in charge" of TCM ON-DEMAND made a conscious decision to authorize a change in the parameters of their site to NOT allow anyone to access and use it unless they have "agreed" (by adjusting their settings to a painfully unsecured level, to accept any and ALL of their 3rd Party Vendor Cookies.

This was not the case on August 2, 2017, it became the status quo on August 3rd, 2017.

 

WHY would they do this? Without any fanfare or notice. I believe the answer lies with why do 3rd Party vendors and their use of "cookies" exist at all?  That answer is obvious. $ signs

Attached Files


"We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?"  "...They're probably watching me..."

 

I have been told that I have a tendency toward verbosity.


#37 MovieCollectorOH

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 07:31 PM

@ Stephan

​I don't have any passwords created for my Directv account, so try working through this, it will basically prove or disprove my theory that the server isn't configured to work with all browsers.

Try this add-on for Firefox.  It is the latest and greatest version of this add-on, and works on the newest version of Firefox for me (Firefox V54).

https://addons.mozil...itcher-firefox/

 

The goal is to try spoofing a different user agent string for now (make Firefox report itself as a different browser than Firefox).  Once you install this add-on, there will be a new icon at the far upper-right section of the Firefox window, along with your other add-on icons.  This one initially looks like a blue globe.  Click on it and its pop-up comes up.  Click on the Google Chrome selector in the Desktop Browser section.  The blue globe Icon (indicating default browser user agent) will change to Google Chrome's icon. 

 

Click on the screen anywhere outside that popup to exit.  [*Don't click on the checkbox at the bottom left.  It is the reset-to-default or undo button, they just have the wrong ISO symbol in there.]

I have verified the user agent string indeed does change to Google Chrome's with this link:

http://mybrowserinfo.com/

 

Here is my native user agent string - I am running Linux Mint (based on Ubuntu Linux), and Firefox 54:

Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux x86_64; rv:54.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/54.0

 

Here is my spoofed Chrome user agent string - it even says I am using Windows  (LOL..fat chance):

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/47.0.2526.73 Safari/537.36

 

 

With it temporarily changed to Google Chrome, try logging in to TCM again.

 

To revert back to default Firefox user agent string, click on the add-on icon again and click on the small checkbox at lower left corner of the popup.  This will reset it back to default Firefox.  You can verify at this same link:

http://mybrowserinfo.com/


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#38 Stephan55

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 10:59 AM

As if you needed assurance, this confirms it.  It is not you.

 

 

This "sprite" you have noted where the scripted control should be sounds like the server is just sending garbage.  Nothing relevant, just a symptom.

 

BTW, Javascript and Java are two very different thingsUnrelatedJavascript continues to be an integral part of a browser, whereas Java is a browser plug-in that was discontinued in Firefox

 

Java is also an entire programming environment, where the user installs the Java Runtime Environment (JRE) on the OS, then writes and runs ".JAR" files (human-readable scripted files that are temporarily compiled in memory at runtime).  This is a complex, open-ended environment, and using this in a browser applet presented an unacceptable level of vulnerability.

 

On the other hand, Javascript is a purpose-built smaller environment with a limited instruction set, less prone to vulnerability.  This is the one we would be dealing with (if any). 

 

Just something to think about so you don't confuse the help staff next time you call.

 

 

 

If I get the chance I might take a look at it, using the latest and greatest Firefox.  I am not even registered on their "On Demand" site, so that may present some issues.

 

Thank you so much for the clarity between Java and Javascript.

 

I agree that somebody at TCM may have injected something recently into their Javascript code, that has altered how it handles (or is handled by) Firefox. It may even be a simple typo, that is causing the conflict.
But I think the evidence is clearly mounting that it is TCM that initiated the recent incompatibility problem NOT Firefox.

This should be no surprise to anyone  here, as that is where most of the conflicts have begun and ended since TCM implemented ON-DEMAND. 

 

You don't need to officially "register" on the "site" to use the video ON-DEMAND feature.
If you are already receiving TCM by your provider, and if they are one of the listed providers recognized by TCM, and if you have internet access, all you have to do is go to the TCM ON-DEMAND drop-down, click on the link, click on any of the movies that are available, click the sign-in link (assuming that there is a "sign-in" button present). A list of providers is then visible, if yours is on the list, click on it. You will be linked to that providers sign-in page, use your current ID and password, and click. If all works as it should you will be redirected back to the TCM movie screen. The movie will load and begin to play....
In a "perfect" TCM ON-DEMAND world, that's how it should work, using a PC.

For other devices an app may have to be downloaded and installed for the same result.


"We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?"  "...They're probably watching me..."

 

I have been told that I have a tendency toward verbosity.


#39 Stephan55

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 10:27 AM

i use a few browsers and windows 10x64 , windows 7 x64 and linux mint 17.4 and 18.  I can not get turner on demand movies (or live for that matter) to play in firefox. I have a few computers i have built and am able to use many different versions of firefox to test this out, also i use a variety of add on extensions or appearance options to check whether these may mess up the video replays

It appears that something with flash on tcm pages will not function. I tried to use or disable an extension 'right 2 click' and it has no impact on these tcm movie pages.

I am no longer able to sign in. same issue as others and the same issue i have experienced with a linux version of firefox in the past. just spinning when i click on the play arrow.and no sign in button shows up. i believe that is part of java .

however, i am able to watch tcm on demand with chrome latest version. i had to click  on a fwe things to get flash ok'd and it worked as of yesterday. my problems with firefox versions from 46-current, began a week ago i believe. i am using windows 10x64 professional currently. i am not sure how much of this is due to tcm or firefox. all i know is that tcm live movies and on demand are non functional in all/any version of firefox, many versions and in private or normal. i have cookies enabled and all that sort of stuff. and it is the exact same set up as have worked for years 3yrs since my last tcm issues playing, or maybe 2yrs, forget ,

Thank you so much for your post. Can you share what part of the country you are located, for what that may be worth?

Okay, so it appears that it matters not which version of Windows is being used, at least not Win 7, or Win 10.

It appears that the problem is restricted to Firefox and TCM.

And it appears, that neither of us have changed our browsers (or Adobe Flash) at the same time the problem began, and everything up to then appeared to work reasonably as it should, and both of us have several older versions of Firefox in both 32 & 64 bit that had worked in the past, that also no longer work now.
So it appears  that we can reasonably assume that nothing recently occurred with Firefox or adobe to suddenly make them incompatible with TCM.

That would reasonably allow one to make the assumption that TCM made some recent change that caused their ON-DEMAND and Live Streaming features to no longer be compatible with Firefox.
I think that because Chrome, and Firefox both continue to utilize and support Adobe Flash, and because TCM ON-DEMAND is presently functional with Chrome, that the problem is NOT Flash specific and rather exists between Firefox and TCM and was recently instigated by TCM.

 

Where and how exactly is the question, and is there anything in the way of a workaround (aside from switching to Chrome) that we can do at our end to remedy it?
 

I too am curious about the Java Script. It is still being used by TCM, though NO longer supported by either Chrome, or Firefox.

It may be a none-issue since Chrome works and Firefox doesn't, again bringing us back to something that TCM recently did that makes their ON-DEMAND feature no longer compatible with Firefox.

 

It may yet be something with the Flash or in the Script that is causing this, but if so, I don't think it is because it is Adobe Flash or Java Script specific, but perhaps a recent change or typo, in the script code itself that affects the way flash is implemented by Firefox.

 

If we had someone familiar with Script Code in general and Java Script in specific that could examine it for us, it might tell us something more???


"We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?"  "...They're probably watching me..."

 

I have been told that I have a tendency toward verbosity.


#40 MovieCollectorOH

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 10:04 AM

She said she was able to view the trailers, clips, and intros, though. But after trying several different movies, and having none of them load to play, she concluded that there was something wrong at the TCM site.

We were unable to replicate my specific No "Sign-in" button issue, but the end result is almost the same, an inability to view TCM ON-DEMAND with Firefox browser, that also exists in the Virginia region. She said that she would report the issue up her COX chain to TCM, and would even follow-up on it and send me an email letting me know the resolution status at her end.

 

As if you needed assurance, this confirms it.  It is not you.

 

One thing that came out of the experience was the checking on the little "Open Lock" icon next to where the "Sign-In/Log-In" button should be.

When Right clicking on it and then Left clicking on the "Inspect Element" drop-down link, a page of Script opens up that one can examine. Clicking on a line of Script highlights the various portions of the Screen page. One line describes and highlights the little "Open-Lock" sprite, another "describes" the "Closed-Lock," and below that are lines listing the "Log-In" and "Log-Out" sprites, both of which are missing at my end, but were present and highlight-able for her.

Unfortunately, neither of us understood the TCM code, but there were several JS (Java Script) references. 

Firefox stopped supporting Java in March 2017, but there have been at least two additional Firefox versions released since then, in April (ver. 53.0.0) and June (ver. 54.0.1) that I have downloaded, and both worked fine with TCM ON-DEMAND, so the unsupported Java should NOT be a factor with this present issue.

 

This "sprite" you have noted where the scripted control should be sounds like the server is just sending garbage.  Nothing relevant, just a symptom.

 

BTW, Javascript and Java are two very different things.  Unrelated.  Javascript continues to be an integral part of a browser, whereas Java is a browser plug-in that was discontinued in Firefox. 

 

Java is also an entire programming environment, where the user installs the Java Runtime Environment (JRE) on the OS, then writes and runs ".JAR" files (human-readable scripted files that are temporarily compiled in memory at runtime).  This is a complex, open-ended environment, and using this in a browser applet presented an unacceptable level of vulnerability.

 

On the other hand, Javascript is a purpose-built smaller environment with a limited instruction set, less prone to vulnerability.  This is the one we would be dealing with (if any). 

 

Just something to think about so you don't confuse the help staff next time you call.

 

 

I have uploaded a few "screen shots" and highlighted my current ordeal.

 

Just to make clear, this issue affects the "Live" Streaming, as well as ALL ON-DEMAND movies, and in my case also inhibits the video portion of the intros, clips, and trailers (the audio still works for those only).

 

If anyone reading this post is familiar with Java Script code and would take the time to peruse those links (and lines of script), I (and perhaps some of the rest of us) would appreciate any enlightenment that could be provided. 

If anyone else has the ability or any ideas or suggestions to trouble shoot this issue further than I already have, I (for one) would be extremely appreciative.

 

When these technical "problems" arise, it is painfully clear that we will get NO help at all from anyone at TCM, and minimal to no help from our internet providers.

If we don't help ourselves, and each other, then there will be no help at all.

 

If I get the chance I might take a look at it, using the latest and greatest Firefox.  I am not even registered on their "On Demand" site, so that may present some issues.


  • Stephan55 likes this

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