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The Big Sleep Essentials June 17


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#1 jamesjazzguitar

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 04:08 PM

James, I have Carmen fitted for the murder as well. Although they dance ever so gingerly around the issue, it is obvious Carmen is a narcotics addict, and the logical assumption is the supplier was Geiger. Bogart makes a comment on how Carmen acts when she is refused something, so I can easily see her killing Geiger over a drug dispute. She also was known to carry a pistola, but then again not many people in the film didn't.

 

 

           Was the version shown to US troops the same as the pre-release version on the B side of the DVD? This has an attempted plot explanation in the DA's office, and is without the 1946 additions of Bogie and Bacall recreating some of the sexual innuendo laced banter that sparkled in THAHN. 

 

           If this is not the case, that means there was/is a third version of the film!!  As the team of Mr. and Mrs. Bogart only made the four films together, if only WBA could have combed the vaults for any additional material: Screen tests, outtakes, even bloopers, set photos, and perhaps even a pdf of the script and revision notes, etc... One would think the scenes required more than one take for any number of reasons. My preferences from the top: 1) TBS,  2) THAHN,  3) KL,  4) DP

 

  How about you? The gap between 1 and 2 is miniscule, and probably not worth mentioning. I don't feel as strongly as David Feldman did that the 1945 version would have been a disaster for WB/Bacall, but it is certainly a better film with the 1946 additions. This film and THAHN ignited an interest in Noir that has lasted 40+ years, the impact was so great. As the saying goes, "they don't make them like that anymore."                                                       RJM

 

The 'troops' version is the one on the 'B' side.    One thing that is odd is that there are two different Mrs. Mars;   Hawks had to reshoot that scene to bump up the romance between B&B.    Note that in the book Marlow was having an affair with Mrs. Mars and NOT the sister Vivian.



#2 RJMacReady

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 03:36 PM

James, I have Carmen fitted for the murder as well. Although they dance ever so gingerly around the issue, it is obvious Carmen is a narcotics addict, and the logical assumption is the supplier was Geiger. Bogart makes a comment on how Carmen acts when she is refused something, so I can easily see her killing Geiger over a drug dispute. She also was known to carry a pistola, but then again not many people in the film didn't.

 

 

           Was the version shown to US troops the same as the pre-release version on the B side of the DVD? This has an attempted plot explanation in the DA's office, and is without the 1946 additions of Bogie and Bacall recreating some of the sexual innuendo laced banter that sparkled in THAHN. 

 

           If this is not the case, that means there was/is a third version of the film!!  As the team of Mr. and Mrs. Bogart only made the four films together, if only WBA could have combed the vaults for any additional material: Screen tests, outtakes, even bloopers, set photos, and perhaps even a pdf of the script and revision notes, etc... One would think the scenes required more than one take for any number of reasons. My preferences from the top: 1) TBS,  2) THAHN,  3) KL,  4) DP

 

  How about you? The gap between 1 and 2 is miniscule, and probably not worth mentioning. I don't feel as strongly as David Feldman did that the 1945 version would have been a disaster for WB/Bacall, but it is certainly a better film with the 1946 additions. This film and THAHN ignited an interest in Noir that has lasted 40+ years, the impact was so great. As the saying goes, "they don't make them like that anymore."                                                       RJM

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#3 jamesjazzguitar

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 06:42 PM

Hey All,  I disagree with Letterman's POV re: the nebulous plot. I have seen this remark from many folks, ranging from film critics to fans and everyone in between. I will readily admit if you allow yourself to swept up in watching Bogie and Bacall, it could cloud your thinking. Lauren certainly clouds my thoughts, she is so strikingly radiant in this film. The BluRay DVD brings out details making her even more captivating, and the improved sound makes her voice all the more seductive. The additional scenes shot in 1946 by Hawks are particularly outstanding in 1080p. However, the BluRay offers no guidance on the plot conundrum. If you really follow the events of the film, you should have little trouble establishing the identity of the Sternwood's chauffeur's killer. The clues are all there, all but detailed for the viewer by a less than brilliant gun brandishing hood, "Joe Brody." The film hints at Geiger's sexual orientation, but does not dwell upon it. The character of Carmen Sternwood is a nice addition to this rogue's gallery, simultaneously capable of acts of naivete and street smart vindictiveness.

 

                 I digress. I would welcome a dialog with anyone who feels the plot is simply beyond comprehension. It is reported as fact that even Raymond Chandler could not tell Hawks who killed the Sternwood's chauffeur, "Owen Taylor." What is true that although Taylor's character is listed in the credits, we never see anything of him other than a body covered by a sheet. I relish plots such as this compared to the simplistic drivel being featured in most major Hollywood films today. If you are a big fan of this movie, the BluRay is worth every penny. Noir never looked better, the shades of grey are endless, and the blacks are bottomless. Even the audio track is an upgrade, and what a joy to see the film with no digital artifacts- the film has been painstakingly restored frame by frame. This is my favorite Bogie/Bacall film, besting even the monumental "To Have and Have Not." I hope you find it the celluloid treasure that I do.    RJM

 

Have you seen the original version released to the US Troop overseas prior to the end of the war?    This one has less of the B&B romance stuff and is slightly easier to follow.      Anyhow,  I never viewed the plot as being beyond comprehension.    As noted it is clear who killed Taylor.     To me the bigger question is who killed Geiger.   When Carol kills Joe Brody,  Marlow tells Carol he shot the wrong guy.   That implies Marlow doesn't believe Brody killed Geiger to take over the blackmail racket.    

 

I say it was Carmen and this is why they have to send her away at the end.   



#4 RJMacReady

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Posted 11 June 2017 - 03:58 PM

Hey All,  I disagree with Letterman's POV re: the nebulous plot. I have seen this remark from many folks, ranging from film critics to fans and everyone in between. I will readily admit if you allow yourself to swept up in watching Bogie and Bacall, it could cloud your thinking. Lauren certainly clouds my thoughts, she is so strikingly radiant in this film. The BluRay DVD brings out details making her even more captivating, and the improved sound makes her voice all the more seductive. The additional scenes shot in 1946 by Hawks are particularly outstanding in 1080p. However, the BluRay offers no guidance on the plot conundrum. If you really follow the events of the film, you should have little trouble establishing the identity of the Sternwood's chauffeur's killer. The clues are all there, all but detailed for the viewer by a less than brilliant gun brandishing hood, "Joe Brody." The film hints at Geiger's sexual orientation, but does not dwell upon it. The character of Carmen Sternwood is a nice addition to this rogue's gallery, simultaneously capable of acts of naivete and street smart vindictiveness.

 

                 I digress. I would welcome a dialog with anyone who feels the plot is simply beyond comprehension. It is reported as fact that even Raymond Chandler could not tell Hawks who killed the Sternwood's chauffeur, "Owen Taylor." What is true that although Taylor's character is listed in the credits, we never see anything of him other than a body covered by a sheet. I relish plots such as this compared to the simplistic drivel being featured in most major Hollywood films today. If you are a big fan of this movie, the BluRay is worth every penny. Noir never looked better, the shades of grey are endless, and the blacks are bottomless. Even the audio track is an upgrade, and what a joy to see the film with no digital artifacts- the film has been painstakingly restored frame by frame. This is my favorite Bogie/Bacall film, besting even the monumental "To Have and Have Not." I hope you find it the celluloid treasure that I do.    RJM

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