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Kyle Kersten was a true friend of TCM. One of the first and most active participants of the Message Boards, “Kyle in Hollywood” (aka, hlywdkjk) demonstrated a depth of knowledge and largesse of spirit that made him one of the most popular and respected voices in these forums. This thread is a living memorial to his life and love of movies, which remain with us still.

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LEAST & MOST FAVORITE of the week...


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943 replies to this topic

#881 LaurelandHardyBuff

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 02:47 PM

Actually, it's Ingrid Bergman.

#882 ClassicViewer

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 02:14 PM

Part of the problem is that Huston has become such a demigod in film circles that people are afraid to openly criticize his directing.

I know that others are filtering a discussion about SIERRA MADRE and Huston thru their own perspective, but I am just going to come right out and say it:

I feel that Huston is a sexist director and I have very little respect for his philosophies...I can admire his technical skill, but that's it.

MOBY DICK has sixteen, count them sixteen, male leads and not one female. It is too convenient for this director to choose projects that only focus on male bonding.

At least John Ford was not afraid to look at the other side of the coin, as was the case with SEVEN WOMEN.

#883 jamesjazzguitar

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 01:20 PM

I'm not saying that a good screen writer or director cannot successfully include the other gender in a plot that centers around one gender, but that often this gender mixing is forced on those artists by studio heads not in the interest of making a better picture but only to ensure a better box office. Most of the time this cheapens the work.

#884 jamesjazzguitar

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 01:15 PM

Man you are a hoot! Love how you placed Paulette Goddard (right?), in with Bogie and Holt.

Thanks for the info. Of course I have seen 3 on a Match since Bette and Bogie are some of my favorite. Very good short movie and Ann Dvorak (underrated) and Joan Blondell also shine.

#885 LittleAbner

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 12:49 PM

Fantastic! I can actually hear Bogie talking in my mind. Too good. :D

Edited by: LittleAbner on Jul 10, 2010 11:50 AM

#886 FredCDobbs

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 12:40 PM

Dobbs says to Ilsa:

?Well, Ilsa, it?s a long story... After I left Casablanca with Captain Renault, we were pursued
by Nazi agents all around North Africa and Arabia. I got arrested by the French and they put
me on Devil?s Island for a while. I escaped and I moved to San Francisco where I became a
private detective. But someone killed my wife and I was sent to San Quentin for it. I escaped
again and I fled to Peru.

I kept changing my name everywhere I went. Then I wound up down and out in Tampico. Some
old coot talked me into trying to mine for gold, and that?s how I wound up here.

How is Victor doing??


Posted Image

Say buddy, will you stake a fellow American to a meal?


#887 FredCDobbs

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 12:29 PM

That is Paulette Goddard.

Say buddy, will you stake a fellow American to a meal?


#888 FredCDobbs

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 12:20 PM

In the ?30s, ?40s, and early ?50s, nearly all films were double features. There were only a few special exceptions, such as the long epics like ?Gone With the Wind? and ?Quo Vadis?.

Some of the longer special epics also charged a little more for the theater tickets, with the excuse being ?this big epic movie cost a lot more to make?.

Originally, the big theater chains were the main ?business? part of the film industry, with the big ?money men? being ?back East?. They financed the films. The studios only made them. The theater chain owners called a lot of shots, based on how many tickets they sold.

A studio head was put in place to run the studios specifically to give the ?money men? back East the films that drew in the biggest audiences.

Double features were the rule until well into the 1950s, and that is why movies were shorter in the ?30s and ?40s, since everyone expected a double feature.

Both the big theater chain owners and the small independent theater owners all wanted double features that would bring in the biggest audiences, so usually a gangster picture or a cowboy movie was balanced with a love story, to get in the men and the women, and often some ?action? stuff was added for the little boys, and some sweet love stuff for the little girls, so the entire family would go to the movies.

The independent theaters would show main movies, but usually some weeks or months after they had shown in major chain theaters. Or, they would show new B and C movies while the local big chain theaters were showing top new A and B movies.

I lived in both big and small towns as a kid, and when I was in a small town I would hear something about a major new big movie, and my father would often say, ?It won?t come here for six more months.? Sometimes we would drive 50 to 100 miles to a big city just to see a big new first-run movie.

So I?m reasonably sure that Sierra Madre ran with a second feature that would have been of interest to the ladies.

Ladies would endure ?all men? movies, since they liked looking at and listening to men, and men would endure ?all women? movies (such as the all-nurse WW II movies) because we also enjoyed watching and listening to women. I?ve always loved all those old all-nurse movies, as well as all-men war movies and cowboy movies.

Seems that I recall, toward the end of the ?50s, more new movies were single-film showings of films that lasted about 2 hours. If they were shorter the theaters would throw in a cartoon and a newsreel. If they were longer there might not be a cartoon or newsreel.

In the old days, a night at the movies lasted as long as 3 hours, with 2 short features, a cartoon and a short, and sometimes a newsreel too.

If you look at the film ?Three on a Match?, you will see a very interesting and action packed short movie. Only 63 minutes long, but a very good film with a lot of man/woman stuff in it, and some gangsters and a little kid and some teenagers. This was a movie for the whole family.

Say buddy, will you stake a fellow American to a meal?


#889 LittleAbner

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 12:20 PM

That's great, Fred! :D Who is that woman? Or should I ask?

#890 ClassicViewer

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 12:12 PM

James,
I have to sort of disagree about how the inclusion of male characters would take the focus off THE WOMEN. I am assuming you have not seen the remake, THE OPPOSITE SEX, which blends the men into the story very well without disrupting the bonding of the female characters. That proves it can be done.

But also, to use your point, I recently watched the 94 version of LITTLE WOMEN (starring Susan Sarandon and Wynona Ryder). In this film which is clearly a feminist reworking of Alcott's classic, the girls' father actually gets more screen time than in the previous versions of 33 & 49. There is one extended scene after he comes back from the war where he just stands next to Sarandon's Marmee...he has no dialogue and I don't even think he gets a close-up...but he's definitely in the shot and definitely part of the scene and the March girls' activities. It's just the focus is not on him, it's on the girls. This proves that a smart director does not have to cut out an entire gender in order to make a film more 'pure' and that including the opposite sex is not necessarily going to dilute the focus on the same-sex relationships in the picture.

#891 ClassicViewer

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 12:06 PM

That is to show that they're heterosexual...LOL

Edited by: ClassicViewer on Jul 10, 2010 1:58 PM

#892 jamesjazzguitar

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 12:02 PM

Wow, great point! Since today we buy a ticket for a single show (when did that become the norm??), I didn't think about how the pairing of movies and the entire concept of 'A' and 'B' pictures, had such an impact to the movie experience, but of course it did.

Do you know who decided the movie pairings? Was it the theaters or did the studios have a hand in it? e.g. would a theater show 2 movies from different studios (of course after the law that prevented studios from owning theaters)? Man, now you got me thinking about something I never considered before.

#893 FredCDobbs

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 12:01 PM

Posted Image

Say buddy, will you stake a fellow American to a meal?


#894 ClassicViewer

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 11:57 AM

Well, in THE WOMEN, I was talking about the absence of men, which is corrected in the remake.

As for SIERRA MADRE, there don't have to be women during the actual outdoor scenes...but the story does begin in a town, I think...and surely, we could have seen an extended cameo role by a popular leading actress, who comments on the men going off to look for gold.

I am not trying to take the notion of political correctness to the extreme...but rather I am looking at the marketability of a film. When a guy takes his girl to a chick flick, he does want to see some male characters so he can identify with something on the screen...and when a girl goes to see a war film or an action film with her man, she wants to see some chick up on the screen representing her point of view, even if it's in a minor role. This applies to kids films...there has to be some parent or adult figure at least in the background of the plot.

#895 FredCDobbs

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 11:53 AM

> {quote:title=ClassicViewer wrote:}{quote}

> Just seeing it from one angle limits a film and also limits its potential audience.

There aren?t any women along on the gold-mining trip in the original book.

The theaters probably showed a woman?s movie as a second feature, to balance everything out. That was common in movies in those days.

There were plenty of war movies with no women, back in the ?40s and ?50s, and they were paired with love-story movies as double-features, to get everyone into the theaters.

Say buddy, will you stake a fellow American to a meal?


#896 jamesjazzguitar

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 11:50 AM

Note that part of the plot of the The Treasure of the Sierra Madre was that it was very hard for the two younger guys to make it on the trip and the 'old man' was a lot stronger than them at the start (e.g. when going up the mountain). In a later scene the old man comments that the young guys are now strong (from all the hard work) and he wouldn't even attempt to mess with them now.

Now I'm NOT saying a women couldn't be strong, but as you noted it would of looked very forced for a women (and of couse she would be a thin, good looking gal, this being Hollywood of the 40s), to 'tag along' on that type of trip.

Now with The Women, there were a lot of logical parts men could of played (duh), but to me men would of messed with the entire theme of the movie; How women react to EACH OTHER, with regards to men and especially men that play around. All men would of done is taken from this focus on 'EACH OTHER' and to me that is what makes this movie work.

#897 misswonderly3

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 11:38 AM

I agree, ClassicViewer, what on earth does the word "semiology" mean, which is why I put it the way I did, I quote myself: "Film Criticism and Semiology" or some such title" I honestly can't remember exactly what the course was called. From what I recall , "semiology" or "semiotics" , meaning, more or less, "signs", is just a more pretentious word for symbolism. I did not want to appear pretentious (something I'm happy to say is almost completely lacking in these forums), which is why, after I mentioned the name of the film course, I added, "or some such title".


As for the lack of female representation in *The Treasure of the Sierra Madre*, I would even hesitate to use the word "representation", because there is no reason for females to be represented in it. It's an adventure movie (albeit a very philosophical one) about three men who decide to go mining for gold, They are in the wilderness. Why would there be any women around, especially back then, when it would have been a very unusual thing for a woman to join them in their expedition? It would have felt forced, added on . I can imagine a filmmaker doing that now, if only for political correctness.
You state: "It's a much more balanced, fairer exploration of the theme ". Now to be fair to you, you were speaking of *The Women* and its remake, so your points concerning the presence or absence of women in those films is absolutely relevant. But to extend this idea of "fairness" in representing both gendres in every movie seems to me overly politically correct and unrealistic. To reiterate: There's just no reason to have a female character in *Treasure of the Sierra Madre* . This coming from a female who is often bored with movies with no female characters.

Edited by: misswonderly on Jul 10, 2010 12:44 PM

"....What is it?"

"The stuff that dreams are made of."


#898 ClassicViewer

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 10:48 AM

I had more thoughts about this...with regards to the absent female role in SIERRA MADRE:

This is a form of gender exclusivity in movies. It is also present in Cukor's THE WOMEN. That's why I prefer the remake with June Allyson and Joan Collins, titled THE OPPOSITE SEX (appropriate title in more ways than one), because we get to see the husbands and the male point of view as well as that of the women. It's a much more balanced, fairer exploration of the theme (in that case, the end of a marriage). Just seeing it from one angle limits a film and also limits its potential audience.

Now, if it were a suspense thriller/noir where we are supposed to be in the dark (literally) and we are supposed to be denied certain points of view to increase the tension and drama, that's one thing...but for a scriptwriter to deliberately omit an entire gender in the telling of a story seems incomplete and irresponsible.

#899 DownGoesFrazier

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 08:45 AM

......and his doctor.

#900 DownGoesFrazier

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 08:44 AM

He didn't have much of a chance to look like ANYTHING again, leaving us not long after MADRE.




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