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Kyle Kersten was a true friend of TCM. One of the first and most active participants of the Message Boards, “Kyle in Hollywood” (aka, hlywdkjk) demonstrated a depth of knowledge and largesse of spirit that made him one of the most popular and respected voices in these forums. This thread is a living memorial to his life and love of movies, which remain with us still.

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The Noir Canon - a different way of looking at it


31 replies to this topic

#21 kingrat

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Posted 05 March 2016 - 05:57 PM

Joe, there are a couple of other 1965 films to add to the noir list:

 

MIRAGE

RETURN FROM THE ASHES

 

MIRAGE is a belated classic noir, yet another version of the amnesia story, and one of the best. RETURN FROM THE ASHES has a European setting and reverses the sexes, with Maximilian Schell in the femme fatale role (or "homme fatal").

 

 


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#22 jamesjazzguitar

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Posted 05 March 2016 - 05:08 PM

the peeps who think there's a canon in noir are gullible which is why they believe in limiting the years.

 

There are no canons,  only a roscoe.  



#23 Fuster

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Posted 05 March 2016 - 02:21 PM

 

We all know from the many and varied books written about Film Noir that the often quoted time frame that these films fit into is usually 1941 to 1958 some occasionally stretch to 1959. Who came came up with this initially, and why is it so strictly adhered too? 
 
The more Noirs I watch the more I'm questioning this. I'm beginning to come around to a different thought, and that is that Classic American Film Noir stretched from say 1940 to 1968 (1968 being the last general use of B&W film in production) here is the breakdown by year of Black & White Noirs (there may be a few more to add in, in that 1959 to 1968 stretch: 
 
1940 (5) 
1941 (11) 
1942 (5) 
1943 (5) 
1944 (18) 
1945 (22) 
1946 (42) 
1947 (53) 
1948 (43) 
1949 (52) 
1950 (57) 
1951 (39) 
1952 (26) 
1953 (21) 
1954 (26) 
1955 (20) 
1956 (19) 
1957 (12) 
1958 (7) 
1959 (7) 
1960 (2) 
1961 (5) 
1962 (6) 
1963 (1) 
1964 (4) 
1965 (3) 
1966 (2) 
1967 (2) 
1968 (1) 
 
I'm also thinking now that the Color Film Noirs within this 1940-1968 time frame were the first Neo Noirs so that the two sub genres actually overlap. The catalyst for this new alignment is when I read a quote about Neo Noir that said that if the filmmakers made a conscience decision to film in black and white when color was the norm then it was an artistic decision and not one of necessity for budget purposes, Same the other way if B&W was the norm for low budget B Noirs then it was an artistic decision to film it color. 
 
The color film Noir the first 30 years (again there maybe a few more in these early years but they as a whole really up ticked in the 1980s and 1990's): 
 
1945 (1) 
1947 (1) 
1948 (1) 
1953 (2) 
1955 (3) 
1956 (3) 
1958 (1) 
1966 (1) 
1967 (1) 
1969 (1) 
1970 (2) 
1971 (4) 
1972 (1) 
1973 (0) 
1974 (2) 

 

the peeps who think there's a canon in noir are gullible which is why they believe in limiting the years.



#24 cigarjoe

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Posted 28 February 2016 - 05:42 AM

Finally Saw P.J. (1968) a PI flick that stars George Peppard and Gayle Hunnicutt, but also Noir Icons Raymond Burr and Coleen Gray. It's been listed as a potential Neo Noir (it's not). It has one powerful Noir-ish sequence in the Court St. Subway station that lasts about 3 minutes. The impression I got was more akin to a Bond flick with music that sounded close to Henry Mancini.


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#25 GregoryPeckfan

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 01:21 PM

Oh, I missed so many great posts last night when I was watching The Great Escape and Bullitt.  Oh, but then I went to sleep.

 

 

 

I do not know why when I press the button to view new content I have to go through all sorts of off topic chit chat to find new posts in noir categories.

 

A lot of people say about Noir: I know it when I see it.  Then they cannot otherwise define it.

 

There are a lot of my favourite Noir films that are in the first half of the 1960s.  I've been looking at the lists of titles both of you have been mentioning and making a mental list of which ones I have already seen and which ones I haven't.

 

 

regarding Dark City the original-I've discovered that there is no way for me to see it where I live. Sigh.


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#26 cigarjoe

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 07:23 AM

Of course which films one classifies as 'noir' is part of how one looks at this.

 

 
I'm more in the visual camp concerning Noir, most of those I listed have strong visual stylistics that link them to Classic Noir. 
 
A thought to throw into the equation of what makes a Noir/Neo Noir is an individual internal factor. It's subjectivity. Noir is in all of us. Think of us all as having an internal tuning fork, these tuning forks are forged by our life experiences which are all unique. When we watch these films their degree of Noir-ness resonates with us differently, so we either "tune" to them or we don't. The amount of "tuning" (I'm appropriating this term from the Neo Noir Dark City (1998)) to certain films will vary between us all also." 
 
So I think rather than a definite demarcation line between Noir and Neo Noir it's more like there are films that are right on the cusp between the two, and this internal tuning fork that we all have is going to not only determine the noirness of a film but also whether it fits Classic or Neo side of that cusp.

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#27 cigarjoe

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 07:08 AM

Useful additional list of films for this discussion.

 

I should have mentioned Ford and Experiment in Terror as well as Dana Andrews and Brainstorm since both those actors are 'noir icons'.    Of course Elisha Cook is a noir icon but not a major star.   

 

I still use 1959 as the cutoff year for 'end of the noir era' based on the drop off of noir releases but also because it is the last year of the 50s.   (yea,  unlike noir films I like things nice and clean cut!   ;) ).

The beginning of Classic Noir wasn't clean cut either (see list), and I feel the end of it sort of just bled out, B movie production ceased, TV Crime show productions rose with a lot of Hollywood B actors either going to TV or retiring. Independent C productions which I feel are akin to Poverty Row Hollywood kept it sputtering along till 1968.


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#28 jamesjazzguitar

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 08:27 PM

 

I would include a few others along with Mitchum

 

Here is a list of some B&W Noirs (there may be a few more) after 1959  some with Noir Icons and most with Noir actors, others are really low budget or in the case of Sam Fuller's post 1960 films populated with a lot of TV actors.

 

1960 -1968 B&W Noir (at least as I see them, The Money Trap (1965) with Glenn Ford, Rita Hayworth, Ricardo Montalban, may be another but I've only seen clips 
 
Psycho (1960) Janet Leigh (Act Of Violence - Touch of Evil) John McIntire
Blast Of Silence (1961) v.o. Lionel Stander  (Hangmen Also Die! -Call Northside 777 )
Underworld U.S.A. (1961) dir Sam Fuller
Something Wild (1961) Ralph Meeker (Kiss Me Deadly)
Cape Fear (1962) Robert Mitchum
Experiment In Terror (1962) Glenn Ford 
Satan in High Heels (1962) Meg Myles (The Phenix City Story - New York Confidential )
The Manchurian Candidate (1962) Frank Sinatra (Suddenly - The Man with the Golden Arm )
Shock Corridor (1962)  dir Sam Fuller
Requiem for a Heavyweight (1962) Anthony Quinn (The Long Wait, The Naked Street) 
The Naked Kiss (1964)  dir Sam Fuller
The Pawnbroker (1964) Rod Steiger (The Big Knife -The Harder They Fall - Cry Terror! ) Juano Hernandez (The Breaking Point -Kiss Me Deadly)
The Glass Cage (1964) Elisha Cook Jr. 
Angel's Flight (1965) low budget
Brainstorm (1965) Jeffry Hunter (Fourteen Hours) Dana Andrews, Viveca Lindfors, Strother Martin
Once A Thief (1965) Jack Palance, Van Heflin
Aroused (1966) low budget
Mr. Buddwing (1966) Jean Simmons (Angel Face)
In Cold Blood (1967) Paul Stewart, Jeff Corey, Charles McGraw
The Incident (1967) Thelma Ritter, Jan Sterling, Gary Merrill
The Pick-Up (1968) low budget

 

 

Useful additional list of films for this discussion.

 

I should have mentioned Ford and Experiment in Terror as well as Dana Andrews and Brainstorm since both those actors are 'noir icons'.    Of course Elisha Cook is a noir icon but not a major star.   

 

I still use 1959 as the cutoff year for 'end of the noir era' based on the drop off of noir releases but also because it is the last year of the 50s.   (yea,  unlike noir films I like things nice and clean cut!   ;) ).


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#29 cigarjoe

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 07:53 PM

Of course which films one classifies as 'noir' is part of how one looks at this.

 

The Book Film Noir 2nd edition (Ward \ Silver),  has 3 noir films listed for both 1958 and 1959.

 

1958 - The Lineup,  Party Girl,  and Touch of Evil

1959 - The Beat Generation, The Crimson Kimono, and Odds Against Tomorrow

 

(with none for 1960 and 2 for 1961 - Blast of Silence and Underworld USA).

 

There are 10 films listed for 1957 - Baby Face Nelson,  The Brother Rico, The Burglar, Crime of Passion, The Garment Jungle,  The Night Runner,  Nightfall, Plunder Road,  Sweet Smell of Success, and The Tattered Dress.

 

My point being that the list cigarjoe provided of B&W noir films and the listings above,  'match' in that there is a major drop off of noir films after 1957.    

 

Also,  the only noir icon that made significant noir films after 1959 is Mitchum with Cape Fear (1962),  The Friends of Eddie Coyle and Farewell my Lovey.    

 

Is that another reason to site 1959 as the end of an era?       

 

I would include a few others along with Mitchum

 

Here is a list of some B&W Noirs (there may be a few more) after 1959  some with Noir Icons and most with Noir actors, others are really low budget or in the case of Sam Fuller's post 1960 films populated with a lot of TV actors.

 

1960 -1968 B&W Noir (at least as I see them, The Money Trap (1965) with Glenn Ford, Rita Hayworth, Ricardo Montalban, may be another but I've only seen clips 
 
Psycho (1960) Janet Leigh (Act Of Violence - Touch of Evil) John McIntire
Blast Of Silence (1961) v.o. Lionel Stander  (Hangmen Also Die! -Call Northside 777 )
Underworld U.S.A. (1961) dir Sam Fuller
Something Wild (1961) Ralph Meeker (Kiss Me Deadly)
Cape Fear (1962) Robert Mitchum
Experiment In Terror (1962) Glenn Ford 
Satan in High Heels (1962) Meg Myles (The Phenix City Story - New York Confidential )
The Manchurian Candidate (1962) Frank Sinatra (Suddenly - The Man with the Golden Arm )
Shock Corridor (1962)  dir Sam Fuller
Requiem for a Heavyweight (1962) Anthony Quinn (The Long Wait, The Naked Street) 
The Naked Kiss (1964)  dir Sam Fuller
The Pawnbroker (1964) Rod Steiger (The Big Knife -The Harder They Fall - Cry Terror! ) Juano Hernandez (The Breaking Point -Kiss Me Deadly)
The Glass Cage (1964) Elisha Cook Jr. 
Angel's Flight (1965) low budget
Brainstorm (1965) Jeffry Hunter (Fourteen Hours) Dana Andrews, Viveca Lindfors, Strother Martin
Once A Thief (1965) Jack Palance, Van Heflin
Aroused (1966) low budget
Mr. Buddwing (1966) Jean Simmons (Angel Face)
In Cold Blood (1967) Paul Stewart, Jeff Corey, Charles McGraw
The Incident (1967) Thelma Ritter, Jan Sterling, Gary Merrill
The Pick-Up (1968) low budget

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#30 jamesjazzguitar

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 03:46 PM

Of course which films one classifies as 'noir' is part of how one looks at this.

 

The Book Film Noir 2nd edition (Ward \ Silver),  has 3 noir films listed for both 1958 and 1959.

 

1958 - The Lineup,  Party Girl,  and Touch of Evil

1959 - The Beat Generation, The Crimson Kimono, and Odds Against Tomorrow

 

(with none for 1960 and 2 for 1961 - Blast of Silence and Underworld USA).

 

There are 10 films listed for 1957 - Baby Face Nelson,  The Brother Rico, The Burglar, Crime of Passion, The Garment Jungle,  The Night Runner,  Nightfall, Plunder Road,  Sweet Smell of Success, and The Tattered Dress.

 

My point being that the list cigarjoe provided of B&W noir films and the listings above,  'match' in that there is a major drop off of noir films after 1957.    

 

Also,  the only noir icon that made significant noir films after 1959 is Mitchum with Cape Fear (1962),  The Friends of Eddie Coyle and Farewell my Lovey.    

 

Is that another reason to site 1959 as the end of an era?       


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#31 GregoryPeckfan

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 01:07 PM

 

We all know from the many and varied books written about Film Noir that the often quoted time frame that these films fit into is usually 1941 to 1958 some occasionally stretch to 1959. Who came came up with this initially, and why is it so strictly adhered too? 
 
The more Noirs I watch the more I'm questioning this. I'm beginning to come around to a different thought, and that is that Classic American Film Noir stretched from say 1940 to 1968 (1968 being the last general use of B&W film in production) here is the breakdown by year of Black & White Noirs (there may be a few more to add in, in that 1959 to 1968 stretch: 
 
1940 (5) 
1941 (11) 
1942 (5) 
1943 (5) 
1944 (18) 
1945 (22) 
1946 (42) 
1947 (53) 
1948 (43) 
1949 (52) 
1950 (57) 
1951 (39) 
1952 (26) 
1953 (21) 
1954 (26) 
1955 (20) 
1956 (19) 
1957 (12) 
1958 (7) 
1959 (7) 
1960 (2) 
1961 (5) 
1962 (6) 
1963 (1) 
1964 (4) 
1965 (3) 
1966 (2) 
1967 (2) 
1968 (1) 
 
I'm also thinking now that the Color Film Noirs within this 1940-1968 time frame were the first Neo Noirs so that the two sub genres actually overlap. The catalyst for this new alignment is when I read a quote about Neo Noir that said that if the filmmakers made a conscience decision to film in black and white when color was the norm then it was an artistic decision and not one of necessity for budget purposes, Same the other way if B&W was the norm for low budget B Noirs then it was an artistic decision to film it color. 
 
The color film Noir the first 30 years (again there maybe a few more in these early years but they as a whole really up ticked in the 1980s and 1990's): 
 
1945 (1) 
1947 (1) 
1948 (1) 
1953 (2) 
1955 (3) 
1956 (3) 
1958 (1) 
1966 (1) 
1967 (1) 
1969 (1) 
1970 (2) 
1971 (4) 
1972 (1) 
1973 (0) 
1974 (2) 

 

Yes, this reminds me how there used to be two separate Oscar categories for B&W cinematography and Colour cinematography.

 

I've always seen Chinatown as neo-noir, not noir.


Peter Fonda and Gregory Peck are my heroes.

#32 cigarjoe

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 06:24 AM

We all know from the many and varied books written about Film Noir that the often quoted time frame that these films fit into is usually 1941 to 1958 some occasionally stretch to 1959. Who came came up with this initially, and why is it so strictly adhered too? 
 
The more Noirs I watch the more I'm questioning this. I'm beginning to come around to a different thought, and that is that Classic American Film Noir stretched from say 1940 to 1968 (1968 being the last general use of B&W film in production) here is the breakdown by year of Black & White Noirs (there may be a few more to add in, in that 1959 to 1968 stretch: 
 
1940 (5) 
1941 (11) 
1942 (5) 
1943 (5) 
1944 (18) 
1945 (22) 
1946 (42) 
1947 (53) 
1948 (43) 
1949 (52) 
1950 (57) 
1951 (39) 
1952 (26) 
1953 (21) 
1954 (26) 
1955 (20) 
1956 (19) 
1957 (12) 
1958 (7) 
1959 (7) 
1960 (2) 
1961 (5) 
1962 (6) 
1963 (1) 
1964 (4) 
1965 (3) 
1966 (2) 
1967 (2) 
1968 (1) 
 
I'm also thinking now that the Color Film Noirs within this 1940-1968 time frame were the first Neo Noirs so that the two sub genres actually overlap. The catalyst for this new alignment is when I read a quote about Neo Noir that said that if the filmmakers made a conscience decision to film in black and white when color was the norm then it was an artistic decision and not one of necessity for budget purposes, Same the other way if B&W was the norm for low budget B Noirs then it was an artistic decision to film it color. 
 
The color film Noir the first 30 years (again there maybe a few more in these early years but they as a whole really up ticked in the 1980s and 1990's): 
 
1945 (1) 
1947 (1) 
1948 (1) 
1953 (2) 
1955 (3) 
1956 (3) 
1958 (1) 
1966 (1) 
1967 (1) 
1969 (1) 
1970 (2) 
1971 (4) 
1972 (1) 
1973 (0) 
1974 (2) 
 
 

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