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Lead or Supporting Role?


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#1 skimpole

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 09:34 PM

Leading vs. Supporting Categories in 2016 …

IMO Viola Davis was the leading actress in Fences.  Oscar had her in the supporting category but I think this was a move on the producers’ part to ensure a win.  Davis not only appears throughout the film but she eventually takes it over.  This is akin to putting Shirley Booth in supporting for Come Back, Little Sheba because co-star Burt Lancaster had a bigger name.

Jeff Bridges is the co-leading actor with Chris Pine in Hell or High Water.  This is a cat-and-mouse two-hander IMO.  Oscar had Bridges in supporting.

Lucas Hedges is the co-leading actor with Casey Affleck in Manchester by the Sea.  The film is as much his story as that of his uncle.  Oscar had Hedges in supporting.

Dev Patel is the leading actor in Lion.  Oscar had him in supporting too.


Is Taraji P. Henson the only lead in Hidden Figures?  I have Octavia Spencer in support.

 

SPOILERS abound.

 

I disagree.  Washington isn't simply better known than Davis.  He dominates the movie much more than the comparable relationships in La La Land, Loving, and Florence Foster Jenkins.  For the first two hours he's almost always on screen and Davis only has a couple of minutes alone or without Washington.  Then he dies and the last twenty minutes is about his funeral.  The movie is about him, and only secondarily his marriage.  It's basically "Death of a Salesman," as "Life and Death of an African-American Sanitation Worker."

 

I personally think Bridges coasts through Hell or High Water.  Pine and Foster are the characters who have all the action, the moral dilemma and make almost all of the risks.

 

I don't think anyone, even those who didn't like the movie, thought that Hedges was a co-lead.  His being orphaned is the dilemma for Affleck.  The movie isn't about his growth or development.  It's clearly about Affleck.  The movie stands or falls on Affleck's life.  Hedges is a somewhat selfish teenager whose father died.  There's no reason why that event would dramatically change him, (he's not responsible in any way for his father's death) or stop him chasing girls, and it doesn't.  There isn't a part of his character that's separate from Affleck having to deal with it.  By contrast, Hedges has little or nothing to do with Affleck's relationship with his ex-wife, the often contemptuous view of the other townspeople towards him or the central tragedy of Affleck's life.

 

I forget when Patel's character actually appears in Lion.  Is it 40% or 50% of the way in?

 

Henson is clearly the lead.  She's the character with the big love story, the one who interacts with Costner and Parsons, and the one whose scientific knowledge leads to the dramatic NASA incident.  The other two's role is distinctly less.


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#2 Bogie56

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:49 PM

Taraji is the only lead in Hidden Figures.... most other category placement seems pretty cut and dry for 2016, although I am not certain on Rules Don't Apply (is Beatty supporting?) or on Alden Ehrenreich in hail,Caesar (a series of skits, but his role was larger than many of the others)

 

Also, in place so that if anybody picks him in juvenile performance, he is eligible:  Ferdia Walsh-Peelo, the lead in Sing Street, was 15 when the movie was filmed in 2014.

 

Beatty is leading in Rules Don't Apply along with Collins and Ehrenreich.  I have Ehrenreich as supporting in Hail Caesar.



#3 CinemaInternational

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 05:57 PM

Taraji is the only lead in Hidden Figures.... most other category placement seems pretty cut and dry for 2016, although I am not certain on Rules Don't Apply (is Beatty supporting?) or on Alden Ehrenreich in hail,Caesar (a series of skits, but his role was larger than many of the others)

 

Also, in place so that if anybody picks him in juvenile performance, he is eligible:  Ferdia Walsh-Peelo, the lead in Sing Street, was 15 when the movie was filmed in 2014.



#4 LawrenceA

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 04:53 PM

Leading vs. Supporting Categories in 2016 …

 

Jeff Bridges is the co-leading actor with Chris Pine in Hell or High Water.  This is a cat-and-mouse two-hander IMO.  Oscar had Bridges in supporting.

 

Is Taraji P. Henson the only lead in Hidden Figures?  I have Octavia Spencer in support.

 

 

I have Bridges as Best Actor and Pine as Best Supporting Actor

I have Henson as Best Actress and Spencer as Best Supporting Actress

 

I say that both Pine and Bridges are certainly leads. I would even hear an argument for Foster, but leaving him as supporting is understandable.

 

With Hidden Figures, I say either only Henson is lead, or all 3 women (Henson, Spencer and Monae) are leads. I think the latter was the filmmakers' intention, but the editing made Henson's character slightly more prevalent.


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#5 JamesStewartFan95

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 04:47 PM

Leading vs. Supporting Categories in 2016 …
Jeff Bridges is the co-leading actor with Chris Pine in Hell or High Water.  This is a cat-and-mouse two-hander IMO.  Oscar had Bridges in supporting.
Is Taraji P. Henson the only lead in Hidden Figures?  I have Octavia Spencer in support.


I have Bridges as Best Actor and Pine as Best Supporting Actor

I have Henson as Best Actress and Spencer as Best Supporting Actress

#6 Bogie56

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 04:02 PM

Leading vs. Supporting Categories in 2016 …

IMO Viola Davis was the leading actress in Fences.  Oscar had her in the supporting category but I think this was a move on the producers’ part to ensure a win.  Davis not only appears throughout the film but she eventually takes it over.  This is akin to putting Shirley Booth in supporting for Come Back, Little Sheba because co-star Burt Lancaster had a bigger name.

Jeff Bridges is the co-leading actor with Chris Pine in Hell or High Water.  This is a cat-and-mouse two-hander IMO.  Oscar had Bridges in supporting.

Lucas Hedges is the co-leading actor with Casey Affleck in Manchester by the Sea.  The film is as much his story as that of his uncle.  Oscar had Hedges in supporting.

Dev Patel is the leading actor in Lion.  Oscar had him in supporting too.

Hugh Grant is the leading actor in Florence Foster Jenkins.  There are many scenes that follow Grant and his story at the exclusion of Streep.

Hayley Squires is supporting in I, Daniel Blake.

Is Taraji P. Henson the only lead in Hidden Figures?  I have Octavia Spencer in support.



#7 Bogie56

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 05:52 AM

Ex Machina is 2014 according to imdb, but 2015 according to Wikipedia. I already voted for it, and so did Kilgore. I'm not sure if I should change it. I agree that Alicia Vikander is leading.

 

Yes, the December 2014 BFI Southbank premiere would have been a public event.  


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#8 CoraSmith

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 01:57 AM

Ex Machina is 2014 according to imdb, but 2015 according to Wikipedia. I already voted for it, and so did Kilgore. I'm not sure if I should change it. I agree that Alicia Vikander is leading.



#9 Bogie56

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 05:05 PM

Leading vs. Supporting Categories in 2015 …

IMO Rooney Mara was the co-leading actress with Cate Blanchett in Carol.  Oscar had her in the supporting category but I think this was a move on the producers’ part not to split the vote.  The film is told from her perspective and her part is at least equal to that of Blanchett’s.

IMO Alicia Vikander was the leading actress in The Danish Girl.  Oscar had her in the supporting category which was a good move as she won but her part is just too large and continues throughout the film to be considered supporting actress IMO.

Alicia Vikander is also the leading actress in Ex Machina.  Many awards had her in supporting.

Christian Bale is supporting in The Big Short.

Indris Elba is supporting in Beasts of No Nation.

Mya Taylor and Kitana Kiki Rodriguez are co-leading actresses in Tangerine.



#10 Bogie56

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 09:18 AM

Leading vs. Supporting Categories in 2014 …

IMO Robert Duvall was the co-leading actor in The Judge.  Oscar had him in the supporting category but I think this was a move on the producers’ part not to split the vote with Robert Downey, Jr.

Both Paul Dano and John Cusack are leads in Love & Mercy.  Some awards had Dano in supporting but the film is clearly half-and-half.  Elizabeth Banks is the leading actress.

Ralph Fiennes is the leading actor in The Grand Budapest Hotel.

Kristen Stewart is supporting in Clouds of Sils Maria

Felicity Jones is the leading actress in The Theory of Everything.

Alec Baldwin is supporting in Still Alice.

Probably Wild Tales is a case where there is no leading actor.

Steve Carell and Channing Tatum are co-leads in Foxcatcher.

 


#11 KilgoreTrout

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 12:10 AM

I don't often put a lot of thought into it, to be honest. I would consider the leads in Mud to be Tye Sheridan and McConaughey. I can also see why the latter would be considered a supporting turn, though. I never put juvenile performances in my lists except for the juvenile category. If they have their own, specific category, that's enough attention for them, as far as I'm concerned. If we put them in both their own category and among the other nominees, then there's really no point in having a juvenile category. I feel the same way about the Oscars and the animated feature category: if you have your own category, then stick to it. If you want to be nominated with the rest of the films, then do away with the genre-specific category. I also think they are too apples-and-oranges to compare, much like fictional features and documentaries, which is why I separate them in my top ten lists (usually).

As for Django, I just thought that was Foxx's story. He was the lead, and the other characters, including Waltz, were just aspects of Django's journey. I felt much the same about The Master. I felt that was Phoenix's story, and that everyone else, including Hoffman, were there to affect or alter Phoenix's story arc, regardless of screen time or line count. But I'm overruled fairly consistently, so feel free to disregard my thoughts on the matter. :lol:


Fair enough, thanks for the explanation. It's often a quite subjective judgment call and there's no wrong answer, I was just curious as to the rationale for what initially struck me as a curious choice. I think it probably mostly stems from what I gather is the overwhelming importance of the role's story function in making such calls for you while, though I consider that as one of many factors, screentime is ultimately my paramount metric for whether a performance belongs in the lead or supporting category.

#12 LawrenceA

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:22 AM

Skimpole, for what it's worth for the performances thread I just go with the year of the film's initial premiere per IMDb. I discussed it with Bogie awhile back and the intent is to list by premiere/first screening rather than release or Oscar eligibility and IMDb will always have premiere date as the year listed next to the title so it doesn't require much digging or anything to determine when to place it.

Lawrence, I'm curious if McConaughey's listing as a lead actor in Mud was influenced by anything or just your impression of his classification? I happen to know he's only in 26% of the film and for those who'd call him a lead, they'd certainly have to admit that Tye Sheridan is the/also a lead, Jacob Lofland is also in far more of the film than McConaughey, do you think it has 3 leads? I thought you just erred on the side of calling actors leads more often than I tend to, but seeing you listed Christoph Waltz in Django Unchained, who is in 74% of all scenes and has more lines than any other character, and initially considered Hoffman supporting in The Master, who has more than double McConaughey's screentime, lines, and narrative impact, makes that call confusing to me.

I stick with my own calls on what category a performance belongs in, but the year differences have occasionally led to winners from one year becoming mere nominees in another, though it does make me think about who among my winners from different years I prefer which helps with the end of decade polls.

 

I don't often put a lot of thought into it, to be honest. I would consider the leads in Mud to be Tye Sheridan and McConaughey. I can also see why the latter would be considered a supporting turn, though. I never put juvenile performances in my lists except for the juvenile category. If they have their own, specific category, that's enough attention for them, as far as I'm concerned. If we put them in both their own category and among the other nominees, then there's really no point in having a juvenile category. I feel the same way about the Oscars and the animated feature category: if you have your own category, then stick to it. If you want to be nominated with the rest of the films, then do away with the genre-specific category. I also think they are too apples-and-oranges to compare, much like fictional features and documentaries, which is why I separate them in my top ten lists (usually).

 

As for Django, I just thought that was Foxx's story. He was the lead, and the other characters, including Waltz, were just aspects of Django's journey. I felt much the same about The Master. I felt that was Phoenix's story, and that everyone else, including Hoffman, were there to affect or alter Phoenix's story arc, regardless of screen time or line count. But I'm overruled fairly consistently, so feel free to disregard my thoughts on the matter.  :lol:



#13 KilgoreTrout

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:05 AM

Skimpole, for what it's worth for the performances thread I just go with the year of the film's initial premiere per IMDb. I discussed it with Bogie awhile back and the intent is to list by premiere/first screening rather than release or Oscar eligibility and IMDb will always have premiere date as the year listed next to the title so it doesn't require much digging or anything to determine when to place it.

Lawrence, I'm curious if McConaughey's listing as a lead actor in Mud was influenced by anything or just your impression of his classification? I happen to know he's only in 26% of the film and for those who'd call him a lead, they'd certainly have to admit that Tye Sheridan is the/also a lead, Jacob Lofland is also in far more of the film than McConaughey, do you think it has 3 leads? I thought you just erred on the side of calling actors leads more often than I tend to, but seeing you listed Christoph Waltz in Django Unchained, who is in 74% of all scenes and has more lines than any other character, and initially considered Hoffman supporting in The Master, who has more than double McConaughey's screentime, lines, and narrative impact, makes that call confusing to me.

I stick with my own calls on what category a performance belongs in, but the year differences have occasionally led to winners from one year becoming mere nominees in another, though it does make me think about who among my winners from different years I prefer which helps with the end of decade polls.

#14 skimpole

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 02:19 AM

Perhaps it could be clearer which years movies are supposed to be from.  It's clear for many of the oscar winners, but many critical favorites premiere well before a widespread release.  Three of my Best actress nominees for 2013 only got a larger release in 2014.



#15 LawrenceA

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 12:55 PM

Lea Seydoux is supporting in Blue Is the Warmest Colour.

 

I'm happy to see that we concur on this. I thought I was going to have to argue the case.

 

BTW, I've mentioned before how many of my winners had to be changed due to these rulings, and I wanted to say that it happened again: P.S. Hoffman from The Master was my original winner for Best Supporting Actor for 2012, but since he was ruled to be a lead, he just became another nominee for Best Actor.



#16 Bogie56

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 12:52 PM

Leading vs. Supporting Categories in 2013 …

IMO Julia Roberts was the co-leading actress in August: Osage County.  Oscar had her in the supporting category but this was clearly a move on the producers’ part not to split the vote with Meryl Streep.  This sort of worked for I doubt Julia Roberts would have garnered a best actress nomination.

Michael Douglas and Matt Damon are co-leads in Behind the Candelabra.

Bruce Dern and Will Forte are co-leads in Nebraska.

Chris Hemsworth and Daniel Bruhl are co-leads in Rush.  Some awards had Bruhl in support but Rush is clearly a story about both rivals, James Hunt and Nicki Lauda.

Lea Seydoux is supporting in Blue Is the Warmest Colour.

Scarlett Johansson is the leading actress in Her.

Leonardo DiCaprio and Tobey Maguire are co-leads in The Great Gatsby.



#17 Bogie56

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 03:31 PM

Leading vs. Supporting Categories in 2012 …

IMO Philip Seymour Hoffman was the co-leading actor in The Master.  Oscar had him in the supporting category possibly so as not to split the vote.  I thought his part was just too large to be considered a supporting performance.  Amy Adams is supporting.

Helen Hunt is the leading actress in The Sessions.  Oscar had her in the supporting category.  This one baffled me as a good portion of the film is told from her point of view and in scenes without John Hawkes.

Michael Fassbender and Noomi Rapace are the leads in Prometheus.

Irrfan Khan is supporting in Life of Pi.



#18 Bogie56

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:59 AM

Leading vs. Supporting Categories in 2011 …

IMO Berenice Bejo was the leading actress in The Artist.  Oscar had her in the supporting category.  She may have had a lesser role than Jean Dujardin but I didn’t feel she was supporting any other actress and her part was sufficiently large to be considered a lead.

Jodie Foster, Kate Winslet, John C. Reilly and Christoph Waltz are all leading actors in Carnage.

George Clooney is supporting in The Ides of March.

Shailene Woodley is supporting in The Descendants.

 

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#19 Bogie56

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 02:41 PM

How about Mark Ruffalo? I have him as a lead, although Oscar had him as supporting. 

 

I had Ruffalo as supporting actually.  It's a big part but I guess my view at the time was it was the two ladies film with Ruffalo and Wiaskowski as supporting.



#20 LawrenceA

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 12:20 PM

Leading vs. Supporting Categories in 2010 …

 

Annette Bening and Julianne Moore are co-leads in The Kids Are All Right.

 

How about Mark Ruffalo? I have him as a lead, although Oscar had him as supporting. 






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