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Bernie Sanders!


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#821 newclassicfilmfan1

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 06:00 PM

I agree with some of this too...good, valid points made.    



#822 LawrenceA

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:56 PM

Government paid for college would just allow the college industry to continue to operate in an inefficient and costly manner.  

 This I agree with this, much the same way the ACA has propped up the private medical insurance industry. I like the idea of expanded vocational training in the industries where we are lacking skilled workers.



#823 jamesjazzguitar

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:53 PM

This is my response to several of your remarks.  Bernie's brand of American socialism falls way to the right of what we already have in Canada and lots of European countries and I would not categorize that as failures.  To believe so is to be looking at the world with right wing blinders on.

As for free college, they are only proposing that the tuition be free.  There are still plenty of other costs. And though I could selfishly say why should I care, I am beyond college age, the answer is that tens of thousands of your youth are being saddled with crushing debt before life even begins for them.  This system is set up by the rich.

 

The system as it relates to loans was supported by the college industry as a way to rip off the consumer  (mostly parents).    The college industry also helped create the self-fulfilling prophecy that if one doesn't have a college degree one can't get a good job.    So I'm not in favor of 'free' college for all.   Instead I support very low interest loans (say a percent < inflation) for vocational education programs.    e.g. one is a lot more valuable to the computer \ software industry with a Microsoft Engineering 'Degree' (certification) then a degree in English Literature.  

 

Government paid for college would just allow the college industry to continue to operate in an inefficient and costly manner.  



#824 LawrenceA

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:53 PM

I don't agree with the free college...sorry.   Before Bernie, all the young folks paid for their own college education by working (or their parents paid)...and yes, there is huge loans and debts incurred...but to give college tuition for free (or parts of it) is not fair to those who ultimately have to pay through their taxes.  If a person has no children (or grown children)...why should they have to pay for other people's children's education with higher taxes?  What will happen is we'll all pay for all these kids to go to college, many of whom will party for most of their education and have a darn good time on our money.

(especially by kids who really don't want to go to college and aren't serious about it...but they'll go there if it's "free").   Not in favor of Bernie Sanders and all his "free" ideas.

 

You realize you already pay for grades k-12, right? I have no children, and yet I've paid my taxes, and paid for countless kids to go to school. Your argument sounds like one of those "well, back in MY day" type rants that everyone loves to hear. Before you came along, your predecessors worked 12 hour days 6 days a week from age 6 onward, and before then they ate garbage to live, and before that they murdered each other, and even ate each other if times were lean. The point being, you hopefully make the world a better place when you leave than when you entered it. It's called progress. And it used to be what we were striving for in this country. 


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#825 newclassicfilmfan1

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:46 PM

I respect your opinion if you favor Bernie Sanders - but I don't like him.



#826 newclassicfilmfan1

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:43 PM

I don't agree with the free college...sorry.   Before Bernie, all the young folks paid for their own college education by working (or their parents paid)...and yes, there is huge loans and debts incurred...but to give college tuition for free (or parts of it) is not fair to those who ultimately have to pay through their taxes.  If a person has no children (or grown children)...why should they have to pay for other people's children's education with higher taxes?  What will happen is we'll all pay for all these kids to go to college, many of whom will party for most of their education and have a darn good time on our money.

(especially by kids who really don't want to go to college and aren't serious about it...but they'll go there if it's "free").   Not in favor of Bernie Sanders and all his "free" ideas.



#827 Bogie56

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:32 PM

This is my response to several of your remarks.  Bernie's brand of American socialism falls way to the right of what we already have in Canada and lots of European countries and I would not categorize that as failures.  To believe so is to be looking at the world with right wing blinders on.

As for free college, they are only proposing that the tuition be free.  There are still plenty of other costs. And though I could selfishly say why should I care, I am beyond college age, the answer is that tens of thousands of your youth are being saddled with crushing debt before life even begins for them.  This system is set up by the rich.



#828 newclassicfilmfan1

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:17 PM

I agree...any better candidate than Bernie could have beaten Hillary.



#829 NipkowDisc

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:16 PM

What would you do without your fire department, medicare and social security?  You don't have to be an extremist to like some socialist schemes.  You sound like a brainwashed McCarthyite.

I got nothing against sanders being a socialist other than the fact it has failed everywhere it has been tried but what is truly sad is the only 'democrat' challenging HRC is a socialist.

 

so given a choice between outright theft and maintaining the status quo hillary knows the most people will choose the latter.


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#830 newclassicfilmfan1

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:15 PM

Free college and other stuff is great and gets plenty of votes from those who benefit from the free stuff...but someone has to "pay" for all this free stuff and most of us taxpayers will have to pony up the money.   Regarding his plan for "free college" for everyone....is that retroactive to include those of us that worked and paid for their educations?



#831 Bogie56

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:10 PM

Socialism is good until you run out of other people's money.

 

What would you do without your fire department, medicare and social security?  You don't have to be an extremist to like some socialist schemes.  You sound like a brainwashed McCarthyite.



#832 newclassicfilmfan1

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 05:08 PM

Socialism is good until you run out of other people's money.



#833 Swithin

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 04:21 PM

"Approximately two-thirds of American voters say the U.S. needs “radical change,” according to an April 5 Quinnipiac University poll.

When asked what they thought about the statement “the old way of doing things no longer works and we need radical change,” the survey found that 64 percent of voters agreed.

I actually just read that poll. It said a lot more than what you quoted. Here it is. If you want to refer to a poll that also says "America has lost its identity," you have to question what that really means. The radical change that many people want has nothing to do with banks!

 

A total of 57 percent of all voters "strongly agree" or "somewhat agree" with the statement, "America has lost its identity," as 43 percent "somewhat disagree" or "strongly disagree." Among all Republicans, 79 percent agree, while only 36 percent of Democrats agree. The highest level of agreement is expressed by GOP supporters of Donald Trump, as 85 percent "agree," the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University Poll finds. 

Among all American voters, 57 percent agree with the statement, "I'm falling further and further behind economically," with 67 percent of all Republicans and 48 percent of Democrats agreeing "strongly" or "somewhat." Trump voters stand out with 78 percent strongly agreeing. 

The pattern continues as 62 percent of all voters, including 85 percent of all Republicans and 40 percent of Democrats agree that their "beliefs and values are under attack." Ninety one percent of Trump backers agree, the highest of any candidate. 

"Many American voters, especially Republicans, are dissatisfied with their own status and the status of the country, but by far the most dissatisfied are Donald Trump's supporters, who strongly feel that they themselves and the country are under attack," said Quinnipiac University Poll Director Douglas Schwartz, PhD. 

"Trump supporters are true stand-outs. They want a leader who is very different from the leader sought by other voters, explaining the mystery many see behind Trump's support," Dr. Schwartz added. 

There is a wide partisan division among American voters on the statement, "The government has gone too far in assisting minority groups." Agreement is 45 percent among all voters, 72 percent among all Republicans and 18 percent among Democrats. Agreement is highest among Trump backers, 80 percent. 

Agreement with the statement, "What we need is a leader who is willing to say or do anything to solve America's problems" is 53 percent among all voters, 68 percent among all Republicans and 39 percent among Democrats. Trump backers agreement is highest with 84 percent. 

There is widespread agreement, 76 percent, with the statement, "Public officials don't care much what people like me think." Agreement is 84 percent among all Republicans and 68 percent among Democrats. Ninety percent of Trump supporters agree, the highest of any candidate. 

There is a lower level of agreement, 64 percent, with the statement, "The old way of doing things no longer works and we need radical change." Agreement is 71 percent among all Republicans and 58 percent among Democrats. Agreement is highest among Trump supporters with 83 percent. 

Among all American voters, 56 percent agree with the statement, "Leaders don't worry about what other people say; they follow their own path." Agreement is 65 percent among all Republicans, 46 percent among Democrats and 74 percent of Trump voters agree, the highest of any candidate. 



#834 Bogie56

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 03:50 PM

"Approximately two-thirds of American voters say the U.S. needs “radical change,” according to an April 5 Quinnipiac University poll.

When asked what they thought about the statement “the old way of doing things no longer works and we need radical change,” the survey found that 64 percent of voters agreed.

 

The responses were split up based on party and on voters’ candidate of choice. 71 percent of Republicans agreed that the U.S. needs radical change; so too did 58 percent of Democrats.

 

Supporters of every presidential candidate expressed desire for radical change, save for one. The only exception? Hillary Clinton."

 

http://www.salon.com...dium=socialflow

 

The old way of doing things certainly doesn't work.  The evidence is there for almost everyone to see.  Clinton of course would not wish for "radical" change, which does not need to be defined by violence by the way, as she is a guardian of the current world order.

These guardians paint change as 'dangerous' - ooh, so scary, so they can protect this world order for the top 1%.  It's actually much less than 1% in reality.


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#835 Swithin

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 03:43 PM

 

Supporters of every presidential candidate expressed desire for radical change, save for one. The only exception? Hillary Clinton."

 

I actually believe that, and agree. I think the media (mainstream, talk radio, non-mainstream) and others whip people up into a frenzy, particularly in turning people against Washington. That has led to some dangerous situations. I think Hillary supporters recognize how dangerous that mode of communication is. It leads to situations such as Oklahoma City, that recent situation in Oregon, and things that may seem less toxic but in the long run lead to violence. 



#836 mr6666

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 03:34 PM

"Approximately two-thirds of American voters say the U.S. needs “radical change,” according to an April 5 Quinnipiac University poll.

When asked what they thought about the statement “the old way of doing things no longer works and we need radical change,” the survey found that 64 percent of voters agreed.

 

The responses were split up based on party and on voters’ candidate of choice. 71 percent of Republicans agreed that the U.S. needs radical change; so too did 58 percent of Democrats.

 

Supporters of every presidential candidate expressed desire for radical change, save for one. The only exception? Hillary Clinton."

 

http://www.salon.com...dium=socialflow


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#837 darkblue

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 02:16 PM

The irony being people think a socialist is trustworthy and honest.

 

Christ is a socialist.


I may live badly but at least I don't have to work to do it.


#838 Swithin

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 01:16 PM

I am loath to get in the middle of these testy exchanges, but I have to speak up. Swithin, you keep using the "unicorn" label to go after Sanders supporters, but I don't think you got the original intent of the usage of that word by darkblue. It wasn't that he was calling Bernie "holy/sacred" or "infallible" but that he was saying that Sanders was as "rare as a unicorn", for whatever reason, perhaps for his stance against big-money donors or his open espousal of socialists ideals, both of which are extremely rare in the modern American political sphere. Unicorns are known for being rare. They are not, as far as I know, usually ascribed infallibility or holiness, which seems to be the attribute you have bestowed on it.

 

Just my 2 cents. There are critical remarks to made about all of the candidates, but if you are disingenuous about it, it kind of sabotages your point of view in the eyes of others. 

 

Thanks for your POV, Larry. I'm sorry that people insist on bringing up these sensitive political threads, but if they must start these threads, I will certainly help populate them!  Darkblue chose that word carefully and went on in that thread (as I recall, I think it's gone now) to emphasize Bernie's uniqueness. He made him sound almost infallible -- he may even have used that word, although I don't remember exactly.

 

That word -- unicorn -- is actually the essence of my thesis. Trump's supporters think that Trump is a rare and unusual creature because of his stances; Bernie's supporters think the same of their candidate. (In some case, they actually seem to have similar stances, for example, as regards old-fashioned American protectionism and fear of the global market. And on their simplistic "a chicken in every pot" approach to the issues.)

 

Bernie's supporters persist (as Trump's supporters do) in positioning their candidate as"rare as a unicorn," meaning he's not a typical politician. My point is that Bernie is most definitely a typical politician. Each candidate may have his/her unique features, but they are all politicians, and Bernie and Trump are (for me) at the top of the list.

 

As far as sabotaging my point of view in the eyes of the others -- there is no arguing with Sanders or Trump supporters. That may be the real unicorn-like feature of those two candidates and their supporters -- an unprecedented inability to accept disagreement.



#839 NipkowDisc

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 11:59 AM

The above poll was on CNN this morning.  Take it as you will.  As for the NY Daily News article, CNN had two people from the Bernie campaign on this morning who made it quite clear that the people who wrote that article didn't understand the issues and Bernie's response which they completely stand by was correct and defensible.  I couldn't go into it as they did as I am not an economist.  You would just have to see their responses in that interview in which they repeated Bernie's answers.  And one even pointed out that his position was no different than Clinton's which the NYDN characterized as uninformed.  It is unfortunate that people take these stories at face value and run with them.

has the NY daily news held HRC to her pronouncement several debates ago that she would be forthcoming with those goldman-sachs transcripts??? :huh:


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#840 LawrenceA

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 11:44 AM

I am loath to get in the middle of these testy exchanges, but I have to speak up. Swithin, you keep using the "unicorn" label to go after Sanders supporters, but I don't think you got the original intent of the usage of that word by darkblue. It wasn't that he was calling Bernie "holy/sacred" or "infallible" but that he was saying that Sanders was as "rare as a unicorn", for whatever reason, perhaps for his stance against big-money donors or his open espousal of socialists ideals, both of which are extremely rare in the modern American political sphere. Unicorns are known for being rare. They are not, as far as I know, usually ascribed infallibility or holiness, which seems to be the attribute you have bestowed on it.

 

Just my 2 cents. There are critical remarks to made about all of the candidates, but if you are disingenuous about it, it kind of sabotages your point of view in the eyes of others. 


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