Note to readers:
This is going to be a long post in response to infinite1. If you do not want to read the post, then I suggest you ignore the post entirely. I try to make certain positions that I have clear, and unfortunately for the rest of you, my writing is not as concise as some might like it to be.
fxreyman wrote:
What you are looking for is a commercial-free channel that shows modern movies without commercials. Let me be perfectly clear with you Fred. I am NOT looking for a commercial free channel to show modern movies without commercials. If that were the case then I wouldn't have soooo many modern films in my DVD movie collection, okay? What I am advocating is that we should consider that films from all time periods can and should be considered classic. NOT ALL films, but that some films from all periods of time can and should be considered classic.
That's a fair comment. Read on.
fxreyman wrote:
The word classic is bandied around here to define ALL films made from the golden era of Hollywood. You know that this IS NOT the case. Not every film from before 1959 is a classic. There were a lot of duds made back then as well, just like today.
Yet you are also guilty because you refer to the "duds" as part of the GOLDEN ERA or GOLDEN AGE of Hollywood. The duds, as you call them, WERE part of that era so they are forever linked to the classics and have ridden on their coat tails into our psyche as classics of a stature perhaps lesser then the big guns, but classics nonetheless. Therefore the BOWERY BOYS films can be considered classic even though they were garbage made by a Poverty Row company like MONOGRAM.
This is YOUR opinion. First of all, I indicated in my response to Fred that I was NOT looking for a commercial free channel to show newer films. I totally recognize the FACT that TCM shows a majority of pre 1970 films on it's channel. I also understand that TCM presents what they consider to be the "greatest films of ALL TIME, from the 1920s through the 1990s." That would indicate that they would include films up to and including the year 1999. Their mission statement does not indicate classic films, rather they indicate "greatest" films. Only in their corporate name are they identified with the word classic.
This is not to say that the on-air hosts of TCM do not refer to any film as a classic. Some films throughout time should and are considered classic.
I do not think I am guilty. I never said that the duds were part of the Golden Age or Golden Age of Hollywood, I wrote "Not every film from before 1959 is a classic." Where do I refer to the Golden Age?
Some folks here on the message board think the Golden Age ended in 1948. Others believe it ended sometime in the early fifties. As I have indicated before, based on the research I have performed, that I believe that the so-called Golden Age of Hollywood ended in 1959. To me this is an appropriate year to select. Some have written that the era ended with the abandonment of the Hays Code in 1968 when the MPAA set up the original movie ratings system. We could go on and on about this but I hope you get the point.
I agree with you that the so-called DUDs were part of the Golden Era of Hollywood, just as I believe there have been many DUDs created since the end of the Golden Era of Hollywood. And I am not going to sit here an argue whether or not The Bowery Boys can be consider "classic." Or that many of the so-called DUDs made before 1959 are not part of the classic genre.
Here is the TCM mission statement circa 2009:
"Turner Classic Movies, currently seen in more than 75 million homes, is a 24-hour cable network from Turner Broadcasting System, Inc., a Time Warner company. TCM presents the greatest motion pictures of all time from the largest film library in the world, the combined Time Warner and Turner film libraries, from the 1920s through the 1990s, uncut and commercial-free. The network also offers critically acclaimed original documentaries and specials, including Martin Scorsese Presents: Val Lewton: The Man in the Shadows, the Emmy®-winning Stardust: The Bette Davis Story and the Emmy-nominated Brando."
fxreyman wrote:
And has been mentioned by someone else recently on this thread, many more films were produced in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s than today. So just by that measure alone, one could say that many of those films are not worth the moniker of classic.
Well, it is theoretically possible that all of those films could be classics and as I proved in my last paragraph they, to a certain extent, all are.
Again, this is your opinion. You did not prove anything to me. The only thing you believe in is that even DUDs from the so-called Golden Age can be considered classic. TCM in some folk's minds shows only classics. But, that clearly is not the case. They show way more average films from all time periods of time not just from the so-called Golden Age of Hollywood. Hence my inclusion of TCM's Mission Statement from 2009 above.
But that being said, who should decide what is and what is not a classic for the purpose of a film being shown on TCM.
Well obviously, TCM decides which films should be shown on it's channel. Some of the films are classic where most probably aren't classified as classics. As I included earlier, their mission statement does not include the word classic, as it only appears in the name of the channel. They have decided to indicate to anyone who is reading the mission statement that they show what they consider to be the "greatest" films from the 1920s through the 1990s.
Now maybe they should change the name of the channel. But they are not going to do that. They could change the mission statement to say something like:
TCM presents films from the 1920s through the 1990s. Leaving the word "greatest" out. I don't think they will do that either. But then, who often goes looking for their mission statement. Just us geeks who write on this message board, thats all.
TCM does stand for turner CLASSIC movies after all and I'm sure you would be the first to agree that not every film TCM shows of any era is a classic by any stretch of the imagination. At least not in the terms of GONE WITH THE WIND or THE WIZARD OF OZ, if you believe they truly epitomize the classic in the term classic film.
Well, that was the point I was trying to make to Fred in the first place. Why are you questioning me on this?
I also wrote the following to Fred:
What I am advocating is that we should consider that films from all time periods can and should be considered classic. NOT ALL films, but that some films from all periods of time can and should be considered classic.
So it would seem that even though the word classic appears in the name of the channel, TCM shows which ever film they want to show. Whether or not it is classified as classic or not.
Or can it be that TCM is itself guilty of painting every film they show with that too broad brush stroke label of classic. You never hear ROBERT OSBORNE start or end a film with the following comments "wasn't that a lousy film" or "the next film we're going to watch is just plain BAD". The lack of an honest appraisal does kind of cheapen the word classic when applied to truly classic films like the two above if one puts them on the same level as MONSTER A GO GO or THE INCREDIBLE MELTING MAN.
I have to think about this. I can't be sure that I have never heard the on-air hosts say that every film they introduce is a classic. I am sure Mr. Osborne and Mr. Mankiewicz have on occasion referred to some films as classic. But still what difference does it make? TCM is obviously going to show films that are available to show, and that are affordable to show. And a lot of these films are definitely not classic as far as the literal definition of the word is defined. Do I need to spell out the definitions of classic for you?
I do not think that one would place the two lesser films you have cited on the same level as the first two films. Especially if we adhere to what TCM itself indicates in their current mission statement. Obviously TCM makes judgements about the types of films they show. And I am almost positive that even though they call themselves classic in their name, TCM for the most part do not always follow the classic or even "greatest" reference when showing films.
Of course there are different gradations of the term classic film. There are cult classics AND there are genre classics. Films like NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD are cult classics and also horror classics, hence their inclusion on TCM.
Again, TCM reserves the right to consider which film they are going to broadcast. Some films are considered classic where as other films are not. Yet TCM is the sole arbiter of the films they choose to broadcast. So they are in effect deciding which film to show not based on whether the film meets the definition of the word classic, but rather a film that they can obtain and show on their channel. In other words it all boils down to MONEY.
But again, are they classics in the classic sense as GONE WITH THE WIND or THE WIZARD OF OZ are classics? What about porn classics like DEEP THROAT, BEHIND THE GREEN DOOR, or TABOO? For the porn genre they are as classic as NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD is to the horror genre. Yet I have yet to read a post from you requesting any porn classics. Yet if you are true to your position as a lover of all film you would embrace these films as well or at the least acknowldege that they are classics that deserve a place on TCM. Especially in light of the fact that TCM already shows nudity that can be considered soft core porn as opposed to the hard core variety.
Well, I think you have just ventured off the reservation. Or at the very least the wheels have come off the wagon. Do you not know of televisions' Standard and Practices rulings. TCM is not a premium cable channel. Although I understand that to get TCM in some cable companies and markets, one has to purchase a higher tier of channels. But still, TCM is consider a basic channel and must adhere to standards and practices set forth by the channel's legal department which adheres to certain codes and rulings.
Based on this info, I don't think you will ever see any porn films EVER on TCM.
As far as YOUR opinion that "TCM already shows nudity that can be considered soft-core porn".
Any film that TCM does show that includes nudity is NOT soft-core porn. You are getting nudity in main stream films and the soft-core porn industry mixed up. Main stream films started showing nudity in the mid sixties. Mostly as a response to European films being distributed here. Also the film industry lost it's standard bearer as far as rules were concerned when the Hays Code was abolished in 1968. In fact many films were being produced in the early to mid sixties that tested the effects of the Hays Code. Basically pushing the envelope as far as they could.
Some of the following films are considered soft-core porn: "Last Tango in Paris", "The Cook, the Thief, His Wife and Her Lover", "Emmanuelle", "IIsa: She Wolf of the SS", "Supervixens", "Flesh Gordon", "The Story of O", "Felicity."
If TCM were to show these films and I am NOT saying they should or would, then the channel would be just another HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, and or The Movie Channel, plus the Playboy channel and so on.
These are NOT films TCM would ever show on their channel. At least I don't think they would want to show these films. And to sit here and suggest that because you think showing nudity in films is the same as soft-core porn, AND then I should go on and consider those films as classics? You are way off base.
Another thing, just because you think that since I consider certain modern films classic, then I should also consider certain porn films to be classic. That is quite the leap you are making. And another thing. I would never suggest that TCM show a porn film. That is ludicrous.
I have seen my fair share of porn films during my lifetime, but I am not an expert on them, nor do I think many of the other folks who write on the message board are either. You are correct, I am a lover of film, but I decide which film should be considered a classic or a dud or a great film. And I have to say that I would NEVER consider a porn film a classic.
All of these are my opinions only. TCM uses their best judgment on which films they are going to broadcast. They also have a limited budget in acquiring films, so that in and of itself usually means that TCM can only purchase or rent a finite number of films for each month.
As far as requesting is concerned, I would also never request any silent or foreign film to be shown. And that is not because I do not consider either one of those types of films not to be considered classic, some of them are classic. It is because I am not a fan of either type. And I have never actually requested a certain film to be shown on TCM. If TCM shows a film or films that I like then I will watch them. I don't need to request titles. I'll let others do that if they wish.
There have been instances over the years where mainstream American films have shown nudity as part of their story line. Would you say the following mainstream films should be classified as soft-core porn?
Some of these have been shown on TCM at various times.
The Pawnbroker, 1964
The Bible... In the Beginning, 1966
Blow-Up, 1966
Belle de Jour, 1967
The Graduate, 1967
Barbarella, 1968
If..., 1968
Romeo and Juliet, 1968
Rosemary's Baby, 1968
Age of Consent, 1969
Midnight Cowboy, 1969
Catch-22, 1970
M*A*S*H, 1970
The Beguiled, 1971
Carnal Knowledge, 1971
A Clockwork Orange, 1971
Get Carter, 1971
Klute, 1971
The Last Picture Show, 1971
Frenzy, 1972
Lenny, 1974
Barry Lyndon, 1975
Nashville, 1975
Night Moves, 1975
Network, 1976
The Deep, 1977
Coming Home, 1978
Midnight Express, 1978
An Unmarried Woman, 1978
Altered States, 1980
The Shining, 1980
The Stunt Man, 1980
If, on the other hand, you say that porn classics have no place on TCM then you cannot, in all honesty, say anyone is wrong for complaining about modern classics being shown on TCM because now you are the one restricting a type of film for personal reasons not having to do with the films status as a classic.
I have never said that porn films should have no place on TCM. In fact I have never said that soft-core porn films belong on TCM. This is a different argument about what types of films from a certain time period or a certain type of film should be shown on TCM.
To lump soft-core and hard-core porn into a classic category is missing the point. I am sure that there are many fans of these two types of films. Maybe some of them are considered classic. Do they belong on TCM? I don't think so, neither do I think TCM thinks so either.
Your argument does not make sense. Because for some odd reason you think that just because some folks think that modern soft-core and hard-core films are classic, then by that definition those types of films belong on TCM.
But to assume that I think these films are classic and then presume to say that they belong on TCM is absurd. I don't believe these types of films belong on TCM. There are other places to show these films. Again, I have written before that only TCM can determine which films they want to show on their channel. And because of this only TCM can determine what type of film they want to show, whether it be from before 1959 or after. I really do not think that TCM sits around pondering which films are classics and which ones are not. They purchase the rights to show these films and sometimes they show newer releases. And as has been proven by me, the vast majority of films being shown on TCM (at least for the month of May) are from before 1959.
Are all of these films classics? As determined by the true definition of the word classic? No. But is it up to you or me or any one else to sway TCM one way or the other in trying to determine which films they show? No. TCM has done and will continue to do so in the future requesting certain films THEY want to show and show they will, if the films are available in the first place.
Edited by: fxreyman on Jun 2, 2012 4:04 PM
Edited by: fxreyman on Jun 2, 2012 7:28 PM
