Barton_Keyes

Noir Alley

2,698 posts in this topic

15 hours ago, cigarjoe said:

misswonderly3, I'm patiently waiting for your Odds Against Tomorrow post :D

The odds are very high she will post about the film tomorrow.

 

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12 hours ago, cigarjoe said:

We know what she was looking for, it's the way she spoke, her stilted speech, what was the reason? was it a "stage direction" in the screenplay?

And I repeat where is misswonderly3 for her insight. 😉

I think the paralysis of her upper lip she had from plastic surgery probably affected the way she spoke.

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6 minutes ago, ChristineHoard said:

I think the paralysis of her upper lip she had from plastic surgery probably affected the way she spoke.

Yea. it could definitely be that too. It might have been a recent surgery. It would be nice to get ton the bottom of it.

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On 10/7/2018 at 9:23 PM, cigarjoe said:

misswonderly3, I'm patiently waiting for your Odds Against Tomorrow post :D

I believe she's out of town and busy.

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16 hours ago, ChristineHoard said:

I think the paralysis of her upper lip she had from plastic surgery probably affected the way she spoke.

Did she really have plastic surgery? I'd read she'd stuffed tissue paper up there to make it look more pouty.

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50 minutes ago, Hibi said:

Did she really have plastic surgery? I'd read she'd stuffed tissue paper up there to make it look more pouty.

I did read at one point she did. Don't know when though.

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I read somewhere that Gloria Graham really disliked her lips and underwent several surgeries which made it even worse.

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On 10/7/2018 at 6:23 PM, cigarjoe said:

"misswonderly3, I'm patiently waiting for your Odds Against Tomorrow post" :D

One hour ago, Hibi said:

"I believe she's out of town and busy."

------------------------------------------------------

And NOW the IRONIC thing about this present conversation here is that I heard MissW DID go out of town and IS busy!

And 'cause just like Gloria Grahame, word is MissW is getting HER lips all puffed up and pouty lookin' by some Mexican plastic surgeon while she's down there on vacation!

 

(...naaaah, not really of course) ;)

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1 hour ago, TheCid said:

I read somewhere that Gloria Graham really disliked her lips and underwent several surgeries which made it even worse.

I know she was obsessed about it, but I never read she had surgery........

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2 hours ago, Sgt_Markoff said:

"The Maltese Falcon" is not a noir!

 

Wicked-Witch-Of-The-West-Costume.jpg&f=1

It's barely a Noir, I go a lot by the visuals, and it's only real nod to them are the elevator shots of Marie Astor at the end.

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7 hours ago, Hibi said:

I know she was obsessed about it, but I never read she had surgery........

From what I read she had surgeries which resulted in nerves being cut around her upper lip.  I also read that she did put tissue inside her upper lip and co-stars could tell during kissing scenes.  She was very self conscious about her looks.  It's sad that she felt this way.

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It's barely a Noir, I go a lot by the visuals, and it's only real nod to them are the elevator shots of Marie Astor at the end.

I'm always interested in how the human mind works and in this case, we're almost on the same page...but I can not fathom how anyone hops, skips, or jumps over the points of logic I abide by in this matter. Even insisting to history that your advocacy be stretched and extended...I just can't perform this devil's arithmetic. 'Dark' cinematography alone, honestly can't make a noir. If that were so, many films could be included. Even big budget horror flicks.

I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know; you're an intelligent and informed individual..but shadowy visuals were part of the 'noir' recipe for a very specific reason. Everything in the noir recipe was super-specific. I sound like a fussbudget but this longstanding issue --alone among cinema topics--does make my eyes bug out.

Any film that even seems 'slightly edgy' usually winds up getting tagged 'noir' and its just not right, I tell ye...just not right...:angry:

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1 hour ago, Sgt_Markoff said:

I'm always interested in how the human mind works and in this case, we're almost on the same page...but I can not fathom how anyone hops, skips, or jumps over the points of logic I abide by in this matter. Even insisting to history that your advocacy be stretched and extended...I just can't perform this devil's arithmetic. 'Dark' cinematography alone, honestly can't make a noir. If that were so, many films could be included. Even big budget horror flicks.

I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know; you're an intelligent and informed individual..but shadowy visuals were part of the 'noir' recipe for a very specific reason. Everything in the noir recipe was super-specific. I sound like a fussbudget but this longstanding issue --alone among cinema topics--does make my eyes bug out.

Any film that even seems 'slightly edgy' usually winds up getting tagged 'noir' and its just not right, I tell ye...just not right...:angry:

In its original 1930s definition "film noir" was any film concerning/depicting the Dark Side of the human condition. 

Noir is all over the map, it's subjective. For some if it doesn't have a detective and a femme fatale it isn't a noir, 

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Using my transactive-transformo mogogo on the mojo noir machine, I can turn any

film into a noir. The Maltese Falcon is easy, The Wizard of Oz a little more difficult,

but doable.

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Using my transactive-transformo mogogo on the mojo noir machine, I can turn any film into a noir.

I'm sure that transactive-transformo mogogo worked for the minions in Hayes office also. 😎:D

The connotation of “film noir,” according to Film Noir In France: Before The Liberation is “unambiguously negative” and is described by the French and American critics in a litany that contains, “doomed to failure,” “long poems of discouragement,” “lament for the living,” “immoral and demoralizing film,” “indecent, immoral, sacrilegious,” full of “debauchery and crime” whose “effect on the public could only be harmful.”

 

Nobody in the US started out to make a Film Noir, it really can't be pigeonholed into any set recipe, for me it's more a films overall ambience that clicks. That Film Noir visual style (that got U.S. Film Noir re-noticed in the first place by the French Critics after WWII), combined with dark story lines that have obsessed or alienated individuals usually tips the scales to inclusion for me. It may not click for you.

Again what makes a Noir/Neo Noir is an individual internal factor. It's subjectivity. Noir is in all of us. Think of us all as having an internal tuning fork, these tuning forks are forged by our life experiences which are all unique. When we watch these films their degree of Noir-ness resonates with us differently, so we either "tune" to them or we don't. The amount of "tuning" (I'm appropriating this term from the Neo Noir Dark City (1998)) to certain films will vary between us all also."

There are a films that have the Noir-ish stories but not the stylistics those films I call NIPOs, Noir In Plot Only. I look at those as just mostly part of the Crime Genre films. :D

 

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9 hours ago, cigarjoe said:

I'm sure that transactive-transformo mogogo worked for the minions in Hayes office also. 😎:D

The connotation of “film noir,” according to Film Noir In France: Before The Liberation is “unambiguously negative” and is described by the French and American critics in a litany that contains, “doomed to failure,” “long poems of discouragement,” “lament for the living,” “immoral and demoralizing film,” “indecent, immoral, sacrilegious,” full of “debauchery and crime” whose “effect on the public could only be harmful.”

 

Nobody in the US started out to make a Film Noir, it really can't be pigeonholed into any set recipe, for me it's more a films overall ambience that clicks. That Film Noir visual style (that got U.S. Film Noir re-noticed in the first place by the French Critics after WWII), combined with dark story lines that have obsessed or alienated individuals usually tips the scales to inclusion for me. It may not click for you.

Again what makes a Noir/Neo Noir is an individual internal factor. It's subjectivity. Noir is in all of us. Think of us all as having an internal tuning fork, these tuning forks are forged by our life experiences which are all unique. When we watch these films their degree of Noir-ness resonates with us differently, so we either "tune" to them or we don't. The amount of "tuning" (I'm appropriating this term from the Neo Noir Dark City (1998)) to certain films will vary between us all also."

There are a films that have the Noir-ish stories but not the stylistics those films I call NIPOs, Noir In Plot Only. I look at those as just mostly part of the Crime Genre films. :D

 

Well, the Hays Office was interested in making sure that naughty things and "immorality" didn't

make an appearance on the screen. That doesn't have much to do with the is it or ain't it a noir

argument. I agree it's highly subjective as to what each individual sees as a noir, though I

guess there is a rough consensus on the most famous examples of noir. As much as I enjoy

them, I've always thought many were on the simplistic side, presenting a rather one-sided view

of life. They are the negative opposite of the simplistic positive view of many studio era films,

especially the ain't life wonderful musicals. For modern middle class audiences it's a bit of

cinematic slumming, viewing an environment that most people wouldn't want to live in in real

life. 

 

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3 hours ago, Vautrin said:

As much as I enjoy

them, I've always thought many were on the simplistic side, presenting a rather one-sided view

of life.

Interesting.   I have always viewed noir films as being more nuanced and presenting a more complex view of life.   E.g. basically decent folks that, due to desires (sexual,  greed, power),  go over to the dark side.    

Now basic crime drama are rather one-sided and therefore not very 'noir'.   

 

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4 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Interesting.   I have always viewed noir films as being more nuanced and presenting a more complex view of life.   E.g. basically decent folks that, due to desires (sexual,  greed, power),  go over to the dark side.    

Now basic crime drama are rather one-sided and therefore not very 'noir'.   

 

I doubt very few average people go over to the dark side or that they are alienated and

the victims of fate, though it happens on occasion. But to think that this is the norm

doesn't make much sense to me. Of course it makes for good entertainment and folks

can watch all the angst and mayhem from the comfort of their cozy living rooms.

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14 hours ago, Vautrin said:

I doubt very few average people go over to the dark side or that they are alienated and

the victims of fate, though it happens on occasion. But to think that this is the norm

doesn't make much sense to me. Of course it makes for good entertainment and folks

can watch all the angst and mayhem from the comfort of their cozy living rooms.

While the situations most noir protagonist are involved in are unlikely to happen in real-life the reaction of the protagonist is often very realistic.   E.g.  Jeff in Out of the Past;    Joe in Side Street,  etc...

Maybe 'go over to the dark side' was overstated since I meant that they do things that are 'wrong',  and they know they are,  but they are still basically decent folks.    (Jeff lying to a gangster because he falls in love,  or Joe taking money that doesn't belong to him,  but instead illegal mob cash, because he is poor and his wife is pregnant).

Most of my favorite noirs feature such protagonist with the main plot line focused on if they can get back on the up-and-up (Jeff of course fails but Joe is successful).  

 

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4 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

While the situations most noir protagonist are involved in are unlikely to happen in real-life the reaction of the protagonist is often very realistic.   E.g.  Jeff in Out of the Past;    Joe in Side Street,  etc...

Maybe 'go over to the dark side' was overstated since I meant that they do things that are 'wrong',  and they know they are,  but they are still basically decent folks.    (Jeff lying to a gangster because he falls in love,  or Joe taking money that doesn't belong to him,  but instead illegal mob cash, because he is poor and his wife is pregnant).

Most of my favorite noirs feature such protagonist with the main plot line focused on if they can get back on the up-and-up (Jeff of course fails but Joe is successful).  

 

Some of them try to do the right thing, even if it doesn't always work out that way.

If I was Jeff in OOTP I would have shot Greer, framed the already conveniently dead

Douglas and gone back to that sweet small-town girl, but that wouldn't be very noirish.

Funny how two guys who are trying to hide out, Jeff and Swede in The Killers, work as

gas station attendants. Good thinking boys.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Vautrin said:

Some of them try to do the right thing, even if it doesn't always work out that way.

If I was Jeff in OOTP I would have shot Greer, framed the already conveniently dead

Douglas and gone back to that sweet small-town girl, but that wouldn't be very noirish.

Funny how two guys who are trying to hide out, Jeff and Swede in The Killers, work as

gas station attendants. Good thinking boys.

 

 

Douglas' lawyer had a notarized letter from Greer that indicated that Jeff (Mitchum), was the one that had killed his partner as well as his fingerprints all over the place of the dead accountant.    So Jeff could have killed Greer but he would have still been in major legal trouble for crimes he didn't commit.    This is why the book was titled Build My Gallows High.

 

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6 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Douglas' lawyer had a notarized letter from Greer that indicated that Jeff (Mitchum), was the one that had killed his partner as well as his fingerprints all over the place of the dead accountant.    So Jeff could have killed Greer but he would have still been in major legal trouble for crimes he didn't commit.    This is why the book was titled Build My Gallows High.

 

Too bad Jeff was poor. A good lawyer would have had little trouble exposing Greer's habitual

lying and showing that her notarized letter wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

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i was a little surprised to see this week's selection for NOIR ALLEY-

THE DAMNED DON'T CRY (1950)

It's a CRAWFORD flick I've seen once or twice maybe, can't remember the name of the character she plays in it for the life of me though....

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