Barton_Keyes

Noir Alley

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2 hours ago, TomJH said:

Stan was a rat to have taken advantage of an innocent virgin like Molly. That, plus the fact that he did it behind Zeena's back, had Zeena plenty angry at him. I think there was a bit of woman scorned vengeance in Zeena for pushing for Stan to marry Molly.

As for Bruno, in the book he desires Molly but is willing to act as her protector (I just started reading the book but that's the gist so far). Truth is if I was Bruno I'd want to beat the crap out of Stan rather than marry off a louse like that onto Molly (but it's apparent by this time she has it bad for Stan). Maybe this was his way of getting vengeance, too, since he knew that marriage was the last thing on Stan's mind.

The gunshot marriage might not have a thing to do with any carny sense of morality, just good old fashioned vengeance on Stan.

 

Tom, I think you explain this really well. When Zeena realizes that Stan and Molly have had sex, she realizes that her best revenge on Stan (and on Molly!) is to force Stan to marry Molly. Simultaneously you can uphold the moral code (if a guy has sex with a nice girl, he should marry her) and get revenge on him.

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13 minutes ago, kingrat said:

Tom, I think you explain this really well. When Zeena realizes that Stan and Molly have had sex, she realizes that her best revenge on Stan (and on Molly!) is to force Stan to marry Molly. Simultaneously you can uphold the moral code (if a guy has sex with a nice girl, he should marry her) and get revenge on him.

Yeh, that's true about the double standards of the moral code, kingrat. I hadn't thought of that.

Zeena's a "bad girl" (ie. she fools around)  therefore you can do it with her and not be forced into marriage, but since Molly's a "good girl," well . . .

I also appreciated the subtlety of Ty Power's performance in the diner scene when confronted by Bruno and Zeena. At first he tries to act casual and bluff it out when they accuse him of doing it with Molly (though those words are not blatantly used, to appease the code, I assume).

When Power's Stan sees that Zeena and Bruno see right through his attempt at subterfuge he tries to act like he doesn't know what they're talking about but you see his eyes shift away from his accusers for a moment and his face momentarily looks a little sheepish (as in "I've been caught"). Power is so damn good in this film.

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Just a reminder that TCM is presenting some additional Noir films tomorrow (Wednesday the 8th), when the daytime theme is "South of the Border Noir".  The lineup is:

The Big Steal (1949) - Robert Mitchum, Jane Greer
Jeopardy (1953) - Barbara Stanwyck, Barry Sullivan
Border Incident (1949) - Ricardo Montalban, George Murphy (Noir Alley selection on 3-30-2019)
Borderline (1950) -  Fred MacMurray, Claire Trevor
Second Chance (1953) - Robert Mitchum, Linda Darnell
His Kind of Woman (1951) - Robert Mitchum, Jane Russell (Noir Alley selection on 1–6-2019)
Out of the Past (1947) - Robert Mitchum, Jane Greer (Noir Alley selection on 6–7-2017)

Notes:

- The relative rarity in this list is Second Chance (1953), which according to MCOH's records has not been shown on TCM since 2013.

- Happily, the schedule appears to be the same for both U.S. and Canadian viewers.

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12 minutes ago, cmovieviewer said:

Just a reminder that TCM is presenting some additional Noir films tomorrow (Wednesday the 8th), when the daytime theme is "South of the Border Noir".  The lineup is:

The Big Steal (1949) - Robert Mitchum, Jane Greer
Jeopardy (1953) - Barbara Stanwyck, Barry Sullivan
Border Incident (1949) - Ricardo Montalban, George Murphy (Noir Alley selection on 3-30-2019)
Borderline (1950) -  Fred MacMurray, Claire Trevor
Second Chance (1953) - Robert Mitchum, Linda Darnell
His Kind of Woman (1951) - Robert Mitchum, Jane Russell (Noir Alley selection on 1–6-2019)
Out of the Past (1947) - Robert Mitchum, Jane Greer (Noir Alley selection on 6–7-2017)

Happily, the schedule appears to be the same for both U.S. and Canadian viewers.

Great, I know What I'm doing tomorrow, I don't recall seeing Second Chance so that's a bonus.

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I've seen Second Chance, but dont think I've seen Borderline, so I'll record that.

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50 minutes ago, cmovieviewer said:

Just a reminder that TCM is presenting some additional Noir films tomorrow (Wednesday the 8th), when the daytime theme is "South of the Border Noir".  The lineup is:

The Big Steal (1949) - Robert Mitchum, Jane Greer
Jeopardy (1953) - Barbara Stanwyck, Barry Sullivan
Border Incident (1949) - Ricardo Montalban, George Murphy (Noir Alley selection on 3-30-2019)
Borderline (1950) -  Fred MacMurray, Claire Trevor
Second Chance (1953) - Robert Mitchum, Linda Darnell
His Kind of Woman (1951) - Robert Mitchum, Jane Russell (Noir Alley selection on 1–6-2019)
Out of the Past (1947) - Robert Mitchum, Jane Greer (Noir Alley selection on 6–7-2017)

Notes:

- The relative rarity in this list is Second Chance (1953), which according to MCOH's records has not been shown on TCM since 2013.

- Happily, the schedule appears to be the same for both U.S. and Canadian viewers.

Some great movies.  The Big Steal is probably my favorite movie: Robert Mitchum, Jane Greer, William Bendix, Mexico, humorous with a little mystery and fairly short.  His Kind of Woman is another of my favorites.  Raymond Burr and Vincent Price add to this one.   Borderline is another good one and surprisingly better than I thought it would be.  Be cautious when Claire is in with a group of singing dancers - the song can be irritating. Raymond Burr is also in it in one of his bad guy roles.

 I had recorded Second Chance a few years ago (2013?) and it is good, but some how not as appealing as I expected.  Just watched it again last week though.  It is in color.

The suspenseful ending seems to be a little too long.  But I find that with several movies that I have seen many times.  For the first time or two, it probably works.  Watch it if you haven't seen it.

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Wow, I've never seen so many posts and comments about a showing on Noir Alley as the responses here for Nightmare Alley ! Several pages, lots of different posters, lots of interesting observations and points about the film. In fact, I'm so late to this party, there's not much left to say that others here haven't already said. I wish there was always this much response on this thread to Noir Alley's picks. Sometimes there's just crickets...

So, what can I say about this fascinating film that hasn't already been said here? Well, I was going to talk a little about Helen Walker's character. She is absolutely diabolical, and makes Stan look like an amateur by comparison. I was going to point out the significance of her name, but Vautrin beat me to it. "Lilith" is, of course, a female demon in Jewish mythology, said to be Adam's first wife. But she refused to subjugate herself to him, and therefore was banished, or dumped him, or something, and was replaced by Eve. Clearly, in the world of Nightmare Alley, a woman with the name "Lilith" denotes trouble and untrustworthiness (an understatement about Lilith Ritter's character.)

Also, as someone pointed out (sorry, I forget who, there've been so many posts about N.A.), Stan rejects Lilith's offer of sex. He says it is because if anyone saw them together, their scheme would soon be exposed. While this is true, and he was perhaps just being cautious, it's also true that an attractive intelligent woman like Lilith would on some level be insulted by his rejection. There's just a chance that this at least partly played into her betrayal of Stan. 

But of course, it's clear that Lilith is more than a match for Stan and may very well have deceived and betrayed him anyway. You've gotta love that scene where Stan climbs up the fire escape into her apartment and confronts her about cheating him of his money. Smooth as silk, she is. You have to wonder if she'd planned to scam him right from the very beginning. Probably. After all, she recorded his "session", where he tells her of the terrible death of Pete.  But you've got to admire her sang froid, the way she looks straight into his eyes and coolly tells him not to worry, she can get him into a nice institution where his troubled mind will calm right down. And she's a licensed psychologist, she can do it ! She even denies hearing the sirens. What sirens? Poor Stan is mentally ill, Lilith can confirm this. What a way to get rid of him ! That'll stop him from trying to get his money back, no doubt !

It's too bad that Helen Walker's career was cut short (she was injured in a car accident shortly after making Nightmare Alley), because she's damn good. I like everything I've seen her in. Of course, Nightmare Alley's Lilith was her best role.

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About the carnival "geek": What a bizarre concept. Is there a geek in the Tod Browning movie Freaks ?  I can't remember.

Just for anyone interested - I know there are a lot of fiction readers here - there's a really good novel by Canadian writer Robertson Davies, World of Wonders, that features a geek. In fact, much of the novel takes place in a travelling carnival. Davies' geek character goes beyond alcoholism; he's addicted to opium. I really recommend this book for anyone interested in stories about underworld settings such as circuses and carnivals.

I know this is an almost laughably obvious thing to say, but I'm a-gonna say it anyway: I love the "wheel of fortune" thing, the way Stan starts out riding high, he's handsome,he's sexy, he's got something special not everyone has: a true gift for the gab. I really enjoy the way he flies up that wheel of fortune, he pretty much reaches the top, and then, thanks to hubris and fate, he makes that downward slide until he's" just about as low as a human being can go". (Doesnt' Stan himself say something like that about the geek, right at the beginning?)

Kind of makes you wonder about the original geek's story - the guy Stan watches with such fascination and revulsion, right in the film's first ten minutes or so. And hey, does anyone feel sorry for the chickens?

 

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On 5/3/2019 at 8:24 PM, kingrat said:

Nightmare Alley is great. Not to be missed, even if the film can't be quite so frank as we might like. Tyrone Power, not usually someone I consider a top actor, is so good. He and Helen Walker give career-best performances, and would have been reasonable choices for best actor and best supporting actress of 1947. (I consider 1947 the best year ever for best actress and best supporting actress performances, though you wouldn't know it from the official Oscar nominations.) Joan Blondell, also outstanding, hoped for an Oscar nomination, but Nightmare Alley did not do well at the box office. Power never got to play another role this good.

Edmund Goulding isn't the guy you'd expect to make a great film noir, but he certainly did. Of course he's happy to hint that one or two of the characters might not be entirely heterosexual.

Really? I'm pretty good at picking up gay subtexts etc. in old movies, and I didn't detect one iota of gay or closeted characters in Nightmare Alley.  Who are you thinking of?  I'm not "challenging" (put in quotations because it's such a heavily over-used word these days) you, I'm just curious.

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Nice additional points here, MissW.

However, in regard to...

16 minutes ago, misswonderly3 said:

It's too bad that Helen Walker's career was cut short (she was injured in a car accident shortly after making Nightmare Alley), because she's damn good. I like everything I've seen her in. Of course, Nightmare Alley's Lilith was her best role.

...the truth of the matter as you probably know is that Helen Walker's "car accident" involved her driving drunk from L.A. to Palm Springs, picking up three hitchhiking soldiers along the way and driving into a road divider, flipping the car and killing one of the soldiers, while seriously injuring the two other soldiers and herself.

However, somehow her subsequent criminal trial for manslaughter would be suspiciously dismissed by the San Bernardino D.A.

And so you have to wonder if some "fixer" at 20th Century Fox might have had a hand in all that.

(...but yeah, she sure was good in Nightmare Alley, wasn't she)

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Speaking of gay subtext, in the original script the geek bites the heads off

of live chicken hawks.

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12 minutes ago, Vautrin said:

Speaking of gay subtext, in the original script the geek bites the heads off

of live chicken hawks.

Henery here has something to say about that....

200px-Heneryhawk.jpg

"Yeah? Well, I'd like to see 'em try that with ME!"

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7 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

 

Kind of makes you wonder about the original geek's story - the guy Stan watches with such fascination and revulsion, right in the film's first ten minutes or so. And hey, does anyone feel sorry for the chickens?

 

321.jpg

"Well all's I can say is it will be a frosty, I say a frosty day in July before I go to any country carnivals!"

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7 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Wow, I've never seen so many posts and comments about a showing on Noir Alley as the responses here for Nightmare Alley ! Several pages, lots of different posters, lots of interesting observations and points about the film. In fact, I'm so late to this party, there's not much left to say that others here haven't already said. I wish there was always this much response on this thread to Noir Alley's picks. Sometimes there's just crickets...

So, what can I say about this fascinating film that hasn't already been said here? Well, I was going to talk a little about Helen Walker's character. She is absolutely diabolical, and makes Stan look like an amateur by comparison. I was going to point out the significance of her name, but Vautrin beat me to it. "Lilith" is, of course, a female demon in Jewish mythology, said to be Adam's first wife. But she refused to subjugate herself to him, and therefore was banished, or dumped him, or something, and was replaced by Eve. Clearly, in the world of Nightmare Alley, a woman with the name "Lilith" denotes trouble and untrustworthiness (an understatement about Lilith Ritter's character.)

Also, as someone pointed out (sorry, I forget who, there've been so many posts about N.A.), Stan rejects Lilith's offer of sex. He says it is because if anyone saw them together, their scheme would soon be exposed. While this is true, and he was perhaps just being cautious, it's also true that an attractive intelligent woman like Lilith would on some level be insulted by his rejection. There's just a chance that this at least partly played into her betrayal of Stan. 

But of course, it's clear that Lilith is more than a match for Stan and may very well have deceived and betrayed him anyway. You've gotta love that scene where Stan climbs up the fire escape into her apartment and confronts her about cheating him of his money. Smooth as silk, she is. You have to wonder if she'd planned to scam him right from the very beginning. Probably. After all, she recorded his "session", where he tells her of the terrible death of Pete.  But you've got to admire her sang froid, the way she looks straight into his eyes and coolly tells him not to worry, she can get him into a nice institution where his troubled mind will calm right down. And she's a licensed psychologist, she can do it ! She even denies hearing the sirens. What sirens? Poor Stan is mentally ill, Lilith can confirm this. What a way to get rid of him ! That'll stop him from trying to get his money back, no doubt !

It's too bad that Helen Walker's career was cut short (she was injured in a car accident shortly after making Nightmare Alley), because she's damn good. I like everything I've seen her in. Of course, Nightmare Alley's Lilith was her best role.

Thanks for the insightful post, MissW.

One more thing I'd like to add about Lilith is that she gets away with it. There is no Production Code wrath that descends upon her. When the film is over she still has the money and her practice (Lord knows what scheme in the future she may have to exploit her clients) while Stan has a bottle of rot gut nearby and chicken feathers in his mouth.

For my money four actors in Nightmare Alley were clearly worthy of Oscar nominations in 1947:

Tyrone Power, best actor

Joan Blondell, best supporting actress

Helen Walker, best supporting actress

Ian Keith, best supporting actor

Of course they all wound up with goose (or, should I say, chicken) eggs instead. Just another Oscar injustice, the Academy's history is full of them.

Maybe Nightmare Alley itself gets the final victory, though. Today it's hailed by many fans as a classic. I feel sorry that Ty Power, who had to fight to make this film, never lived to see that recognition.

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11 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Wow, I've never seen so many posts and comments about a showing on Noir Alley as the responses here for Nightmare Alley ! Several pages, lots of different posters, lots of interesting observations and points about the film. In fact, I'm so late to this party, there's not much left to say that others here haven't already said. I wish there was always this much response on this thread to Noir Alley's picks. Sometimes there's just crickets...

So, what can I say about this fascinating film that hasn't already been said here? Well, I was going to talk a little about Helen Walker's character. She is absolutely diabolical, and makes Stan look like an amateur by comparison. I was going to point out the significance of her name, but Vautrin beat me to it. "Lilith" is, of course, a female demon in Jewish mythology, said to be Adam's first wife. But she refused to subjugate herself to him, and therefore was banished, or dumped him, or something, and was replaced by Eve. Clearly, in the world of Nightmare Alley, a woman with the name "Lilith" denotes trouble and untrustworthiness (an understatement about Lilith Ritter's character.)

Also, as someone pointed out (sorry, I forget who, there've been so many posts about N.A.), Stan rejects Lilith's offer of sex. He says it is because if anyone saw them together, their scheme would soon be exposed. While this is true, and he was perhaps just being cautious, it's also true that an attractive intelligent woman like Lilith would on some level be insulted by his rejection. There's just a chance that this at least partly played into her betrayal of Stan. 

But of course, it's clear that Lilith is more than a match for Stan and may very well have deceived and betrayed him anyway. You've gotta love that scene where Stan climbs up the fire escape into her apartment and confronts her about cheating him of his money. Smooth as silk, she is. You have to wonder if she'd planned to scam him right from the very beginning. Probably. After all, she recorded his "session", where he tells her of the terrible death of Pete.  But you've got to admire her sang froid, the way she looks straight into his eyes and coolly tells him not to worry, she can get him into a nice institution where his troubled mind will calm right down. And she's a licensed psychologist, she can do it ! She even denies hearing the sirens. What sirens? Poor Stan is mentally ill, Lilith can confirm this. What a way to get rid of him ! That'll stop him from trying to get his money back, no doubt !

It's too bad that Helen Walker's career was cut short (she was injured in a car accident shortly after making Nightmare Alley), because she's damn good. I like everything I've seen her in. Of course, Nightmare Alley's Lilith was her best role.

 

Thanks for explaining the meaning of the Lilith name. I wasn't aware of the Biblical connection. I also agree about Walker. She was good in anything I've seen her in. (Comedy as well). I just saw her in another film recently (Impact) where she played another "conniving dame". It's a shame her career went south. She wasnt just injured, one of the passengers (U.S. servicemen she picked up) was killed, and the rest injured. They claimed she was speeding and driving drunk (on NY's Eve). She was charged, but found not guilty. The headlines killed her career. She died very young (in her mid 40s).

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11 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Really? I'm pretty good at picking up gay subtexts etc. in old movies, and I didn't detect one iota of gay or closeted characters in Nightmare Alley.  Who are you thinking of?  I'm not "challenging" (put in quotations because it's such a heavily over-used word these days) you, I'm just curious.

There is the hotel clerk who sells Power a bottle of gin, then asks if he'd like anything else. I never picked up on that until someone here pointed it out. Not sure if it was meant to be sexual, but it could be.

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SINCE HIS death, SO MANY stories have come out about POWER'S (alleged) LEGENDARY SEXUAL FLUIDITY- to the point, where I can't help but take it with a grain of salt, ALTHOUGH I SWEAR I REMEMBE RHIS SON GIVING AN INTERVIEW WHERE HE CONFIRMED THAT Ty was BI and also unashamed of the fact.

so every time i see him on the screen, that's there in my mind- and it's most def there in NIGHTMARE ALLEY.

really, i think he and CRAWFORD have to be two of the most bandied about named in terms of alleged "canoodling" with everyone and everything of every species at any and all times to the point where, again, grain of salt.

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37 minutes ago, Hibi said:

There is the hotel clerk who sells Power a bottle of gin, then asks if he'd like anything else. I never picked up on that until someone here pointed it out. Not sure if it was meant to be sexual, but it could be.

It sounds potentially sexual to me, too, but there's no reason to see it as gay subtext.

That hotel bell boy, by the way, with the vague sleaziness of his inquiry, accompanied by the sounds of a tinny piano playing somewhere, beautifully captures the feeling of a seedy hotel room. As Stan takes a swig from the bottle the soundtrack re-plays the alcoholic cries of a geek heard previously in the film as the camera pulls back from Stan and the scene fades to blackness.

It's a moment that shows a man in a black pit of despair and represents the beginning of his descent into Hell.

tumblr_pdefg39FT11s39hlao5_500.pngtumblr_pdefg39FT11s39hlao4_500.png

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i tried to find some vintage CARNIVAL GEEK POSTER on google images, and i did not. i did however, find this, which i have to say, is pretty neat:

(not quite sure here just what MEPHISTO from FAUST and COUNT CHOCULA IN BAT FORM have to do with shooting through a woman, but i'd pay five bits to see it. )

a68cbf96587c49ce48e69ce8cef6e610.jpg

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51 minutes ago, TomJH said:

It sounds potentially sexual to me, too, but there's no reason to see it as gay subtext.

That hotel bell boy, by the way, with the vague sleaziness of his inquiry, accompanied by the sounds of a tinny piano playing somewhere, beautifully captures the feeling of a seedy hotel room. As Stan takes a swig from the bottle the soundtrack re-plays the alcoholic cries of a geek heard previously in the film as the camera pulls back from Stan and the scene fades to blackness.

It's a moment that shows a man in a black pit of despair and represents the beginning of his descent into Hell.

tumblr_pdefg39FT11s39hlao5_500.pngtumblr_pdefg39FT11s39hlao4_500.png

 

When you think about it what else could the bellhop be alluding to? Everything was closed at that hour. (Why he bought the gin off of him). It could only mean 2 things: sex or drugs. It could've also meant he could procure a "girl" for him as well.

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1 hour ago, Hibi said:

There is the hotel clerk who sells Power a bottle of gin, then asks if he'd like anything else. I never picked up on that until someone here pointed it out. Not sure if it was meant to be sexual, but it could be.

Well, I did notice that bit. In fact, like Tom, I really enjoy that entire scene. Stan's on his way down, big time. He's hiding out in a crummy hotel room, it's probably about 2 in the morning, he needs a drink, and there's that piano tinkling away somewhere. Why do so many of those seedy hotel room scenes in old movies have a piano playing some bluesy tune, we don't know where it's coming from and it doesn't matter. I love these kinds of scenes, they're one of the most definitive of noir and strange old movies in general. 

Anyway, yes, that bell boy. Anyone notice the way he just happens to have a bottle of gin in his pocket, he doesn't even have to go get it, he just pulls it out, "That'll be two dollars, mister." This is a bell boy who comes prepared, or maybe he just has gotten to know a certain kind of hotel clientele. And yes, absolutely, I definitely "got" the sleeziness of his saying, "Is there anything else you want?". I did think he meant sex, but whether with a male or female was left open to question...I'm sure he could have and would have provided either. So not necessarily a gay offering, more just a sex offering, choice being left to the orientation of the customer .But since Stan wasn't buying, it doesn't matter.

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4 minutes ago, misswonderly3 said:

Well, I did notice that bit. In fact, like Tom, I really enjoy that entire scene. Stan's on his way down, big time. He's hiding out in a crummy hotel room, it's probably about 2 in the morning, he needs a drink, and there's that piano tinkling away somewhere. Why do so many of those seedy hotel room scenes in old movies have a piano playing some bluesy tune, we don't know where it's coming from and it doesn't matter. I love these kinds of scenes, they're one of the most definitive of noir and strange old movies in general. 

Anyway, yes, that bell boy. Anyone notice the way he just happens to have a bottle of gin in his pocket, he doesn't even have to go get it, he just pulls it out, "That'll be two dollars, mister." This is a bell boy who comes prepared, or maybe he just has gotten to know a certain kind of hotel clientele. And yes, absolutely, I definitely "got" the sleeziness of his saying, "Is there anything else you want?". I did think he meant sex, but whether with a male or female was left open to question...I'm sure he could have and would have provided either. So not necessarily a gay offering, more just a sex offering, choice being left to the orientation of the customer .But since Stan wasn't buying, it doesn't matter.

Anything else could be refer or a porn mag.   The vibe I get is that this bell boy is offering something that isn't legal to offer to a hotel guest.

 

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12 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Really? I'm pretty good at picking up gay subtexts etc. in old movies, and I didn't detect one iota of gay or closeted characters in Nightmare Alley.  Who are you thinking of?  I'm not "challenging" (put in quotations because it's such a heavily over-used word these days) you, I'm just curious.

The main character, of course, is Lilith herself. First seen all glammed out in evening gown and elaborate hairdo, then in her next appearance in a rather mannish suit. This is clearly a hint to those in the know. Lilith is bi enough to be interested in a sexual encounter with Stan, but then Tyrone Power has an unusual degree of sexual charisma, which the film uses to the fullest.

Helen Walker seems much more modern than some 40s actresses. It wouldn't be a stretch at all to imagine her playing, say, the Faye Dunaway role in Network.

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