Princess of Tap

Jim Crow Confederate Monuments Go Down in America

557 posts in this topic

Cid--

 

We were really just spending a lot of time reenacting Quantrill's Raid and following in the footsteps of our hero John Brown, like good Jayhawkers should. LOL

The local SCV camp has a reenactment of the "last battle" in S.C. near my hometown each year.  Never been and never intend to go because it is BS.  I know some of the guys and they are as misguided about the Confederacy, the Lost Cause and the Civil War as many.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interestingly Greenwood SC is in a conflict over something similar.  Might have some facts incorrect. But basically the VFW(?) erected a monument many years ago to those who died in WW  II with whites listed on one side and negroes or colored on another. It is located on city property.  The current VFW(?) has purchased a new marker listing all of the deceased in one place without race. The city council agreed to replace the two old markers with the one new one.

But, S.C. has a state law that no monument of any kind can be altered, removed, etc. without 2/3's vote of the state legislature. This was part of deal to get the Confederate battle flag off the top of the state house itself several years ago, not the recent controversy.

So far, the legislature has refused to approve the change.

MY Opinon:  Leave the markers as they are as a reminder to present and future generations of how blacks were discriminated against as recently as the period after WW  II.

Monuments to the past are complicated.

 

Yes,  monuments to the past are indeed complicated,  but I'm glad someone understood the point I was making about leaving them there to provide lessons to future generations.    

 

Of course maybe in the case of some of these Confederate monuments the political leaders should require the constant playing of Neil Young's Southern Man to help ensure people get the point.        (I hope you don't find this joke in bad taste since you're a Southern man but a fair and reasonable one).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes,  monuments to the past are indeed complicated,  but I'm glad someone understood the point I was making about leaving them there to provide lessons to future generations.    

 

Of course maybe in the case of some of these Confederate monuments the political leaders should require the constant playing of Neil Young's Southern Man to help ensure people get the point.        (I hope you don't find this joke in bad taste since you're a Southern man but a fair and reasonable one).

Never heard the song before, that I know of.  Listened to it on a website, but not really able to understand most of the words on the computer's speakers.  Looked up the lyrics.   Not impressed as sounded and looked like a lot of 70's protest or rebellion music.  Not offended either.  

Southerner's have a lot to regret and times are much better.  As the Trump election showed, the sentiments of many of the worst elements of the South also exist in the North, Southwest, West and entire country.  Racism, discrimination, abuse, etc. have occurred and continue to occur in every part of America, not to mention the rest of the world.

 

On another track though, the memorials in the South primarily are to honor the soldiers who fought the war.  Not exactly the same, but not totally different than honoring those who fought in Vietnam or Iraq.

And as you said, we need to keep some of these things around to remind future generations of actual history, not revisionist history. 

 

As I said, the Civil War and the history of the South and the nation ever since are very complex.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hell Yeah! Give 'em that Rebel yell! God bless the Army of Tennessee!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let us allow a poet to weigh in on the theme of monuments to the past:
 
Ozymandius
Percy Bysshe Shelley

I met a traveller from an antique land, 
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone 
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand, 
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown, 
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, 
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read 
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, 
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed; 
And on the pedestal, these words appear: 
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings; 
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair! 
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay 
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare 
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Young and Skynyrd soon put aside their

differences and said they liked each other's music.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

So the city of New Orleans finally decided to take down their Confederate monuments that literally have the words "white supremacy" etched in

 

C-L4DFUUAAECqUz.jpg

 

This particular monument never should have been erected.  No question it deserved to come down, which is why the mayor selected it to come down first.

Please note this is not a monument to the soldiers who fought for the Confederacy.  It was a monument to a gang who took over New Orleans government after the Civil War had ended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Never heard the song before, that I know of.  Listened to it on a website, but not really able to understand most of the words on the computer's speakers.  Looked up the lyrics.   Not impressed as sounded and looked like a lot of 70's protest or rebellion music.  Not offended either.  

Southerner's have a lot to regret and times are much better.  As the Trump election showed, the sentiments of many of the worst elements of the South also exist in the North, Southwest, West and entire country.  Racism, discrimination, abuse, etc. have occurred and continue to occur in every part of America, not to mention the rest of the world.

 

On another track though, the memorials in the South primarily are to honor the soldiers who fought the war.  Not exactly the same, but not totally different than honoring those who fought in Vietnam or Iraq.

And as you said, we need to keep some of these things around to remind future generations of actual history, not revisionist history. 

 

As I said, the Civil War and the history of the South and the nation ever since are very complex.

 

Well I see that the counterpoint song to the one Young did has been posted.   In Sweet Home Alabama Young and his song is mentioned and it isn't in a positive light.   (PS: Hey this would be a good topic for the Feud series, ha ha).

 

The Young song made an impact on me and my friends as teens.   We were NOT very aware of Rosa Parks, the lynching and all the other overt racism of the white Southern man and that song made us explore that sad part of US History.

 

While racism occurs in all communities,  it is a false equivalency to use that fact to imply the South isn't more racist than other areas of the USA.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Much the same thing happened on the campus of the University of Texas (in Austin Texas) a few years ago.

A statue of Jefferson Davis was removed to a museum setting (somewhere).

Unfortunately, the statue it was Paired with (Woodrow Wilson) had to go, too.

Lots of other Confederate statues on the campus, but they remain.

 

The name of my elementary school was also changed from Robert E. Lee to Russell Lee Elementary (saving a lot of sign changing!)

 

This gives people something to do.
History's all there for the studying, and it's still fascinating.

Unless they start burning history (and fiction) books, it doesn't mean a lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Much the same thing happened on the campus of the University of Texas (in Austin Texas) a few years ago.

A statue of Jefferson Davis was removed to a museum setting (somewhere).

Unfortunately, the statue it was Paired with (Woodrow Wilson) had to go, too.

 

If you've seen "The Great War," a three-part PBS documentary about America's entrance into World War I, you might agree that maybe the Wilson statue deserved to be taken down.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I watched that PBS series. Very interesting. I already knew Wilson

was a racist, but I didn't realize the lengths he went to shut down

peaceful dissent against the war. He really was a sleazebag.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you've seen "The Great War," a three-part PBS documentary about America's entrance into World War I, you might agree that maybe the Wilson statue deserved to be taken down.

 

 

This is where we need a little film history. Woodrow Wilson's favorite movie was Birth of a Nation and he brought DW Griffith to the White House to screen it. He watched it numerous times and he called it--" history written with lightning".

 

Wilson was instrumental in making sure that the federal government kept black people segregated in whatever few jobs they had.

 

In history Wilson is known as a progressive and really somewhat of a Statesman, as he was ahead of his time in terms of his dogged promotion of The League of Nations.

 

But like so many racists, who seem otherwise like wonderful people, he just had that blind spot when it came to black people.

 

I would say Jefferson Davis was his Idol and he had witnessed Jefferson's humiliation, being transported after the Civil War.

 

Wilson's paradoxical character simply shows that people are human and that's what you can expect from imperfect human beings.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But like so many racists, who seem otherwise like wonderful people, he just had that blind spot when it came to black people.

 

Apparently, historians have a blind spot for his blind spot. In a C-Span survey of presidential leadership -- released in February -- Wilson was ranked No. 11 on the all time-list, one slot ahead of Barack Obama.

 

http://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000015a-4d99-d5b6-a35f-ffff4eae0001

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guess there are no exploitable natural resources near

monuments to Bobby Lee or ol' Stonewall.

 

I recall reading that Bill Clinton lamented because to

be a "great" president, one has to go to war or face some

deep economic crisis, which he didn't. Maybe WW I was

enough to make historians think Wilson was a great leader.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apparently, historians have a blind spot for his blind spot. In a C-Span survey of presidential leadership -- released in February -- Wilson was ranked No. 11 on the all time-list, one slot ahead of Barack Obama.

 

http://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000015a-4d99-d5b6-a35f-ffff4eae0001

 

 

Woodrow Wilson had his accomplishments. I doubt if historians judge presidents on whether or not they're racist, especially somebody who was president around 1914. LOL

 

Wilson's dedication to the League of Nations was truly ahead-of-its-time. It was his indefatigable campaigning for this project that led to his stroke.

 

On the other hand, being the president that promised to keep you out of war and then leading you into it might be another issue altogether.

 

What I find Most Fascinating about his administration is his stroke and how his wife kept the whole thing quite incognito. Simply couldn't be done today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Woodrow Wilson had his accomplishments. I doubt if historians judge presidents on whether or not they're racist, especially somebody who was president around 1914. LOL

 

Wilson's dedication to the League of Nations was truly ahead-of-its-time. It was his indefatigable campaigning for this project that led to his stroke.

 

On the other hand, being the president that promised to keep you out of war and then leading you into it might be another issue altogether.

 

What I find Most Fascinating about his administration is his stroke and how his wife kept the whole thing quite incognito. Simply couldn't be done today.

 

He also came up with that great line about ensuring that the world “be made safe for democracy.” 

 

Too bad he didn't espouse the importance of democracy at home, especially when some of his own citizens were being lynched and slaughtered in riots. He did absolutely nothing to protect them.

 

And as Vautrin mentioned previously, Wilson's suppression of anti-war dissenters also was shameful. As was his treatment of suffragettes. It took brave women -- like Alice Paul, who went on hunger strikes in prison -- to get him to support the 19th Amendment.

 

I'll give Wilson credit for one thing -- he didn't place German-Americans en masse in internment camps. But his minions and supporters came up with other means of intimidation and suppression during and after the war.

 

I'm sure you know all about this. But Wilson is not one of my favorite presidents. Neither is his wife Edith -- our first woman president!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obviously you never took a real course in American history.  Your explanation of events is totally incorrect.  By your standards, the British should reject everything American and refuse to even deal with America or its citizens.

Incidentally, aren't you citing a commedian's comments from three years ago?

Now, YOU'RE the one talking about two completely different things.

 

Fighting for independence from foreign rule and tyranny is different from  secession from you OWN GOVERNMENT.  And I never said anything about the British rejecting anything.  But then again, when we defeated the British, THEY didn't become part of OUR nation.  And also.....how many statues of  GENERAL CORNWALLIS do you see in any town squares in the U.S.?  How many places in this country is the UNION JACK flown over any state capitols or city halls?

 

Hell.  I don't think even anyone in GERMANY displays a NAZI flag!

 

 

Sepiatone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now, YOU'RE the one talking about two completely different things.

 

Fighting for independence from foreign rule and tyranny is different from  secession from you OWN GOVERNMENT.  And I never said anything about the British rejecting anything.  But then again, when we defeated the British, THEY didn't become part of OUR nation.  And also.....how many statues of  GENERAL CORNWALLIS do you see in any town squares in the U.S.?  How many places in this country is the UNION JACK flown over any state capitols or city halls?

 

Hell.  I don't think even anyone in GERMANY displays a NAZI flag!

 

 

Sepiatone

 

Just one I can think of, Sepia.

 

The Hawaiian state flag here...

 

nunst016.gif

 

(...although unfortunately and contrary to some, Hawaii's official state song ISN'T "C'mon I wanna lay ya"...but wouldn't it be cool if it WAS?!) ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is where we need a little film history. Woodrow Wilson's favorite movie was Birth of a Nation and he brought DW Griffith to the White House to screen it. He watched it numerous times and he called it--" history written with lightning".

 

 

Those remarks attributed to Wilson have an interesting history.

 

When the film played in Atlanta in 1916, The Atlanta Constitution  (December 5, 1916) published a short notice which read:

 

“History written with lightning” was the phrase coined by a certain high executive at Washington after witnessing “The Birth of a Nation” at a private showing at his home. It was a matter of keen disappointment to Mr. Griffith’s associates when the producer, for ethical reasons, forbade the use of the executive’s name in any advertising.

 

If Wilson were the "high executive," this would seem to clinch that he made those remarks.  Yet, it seems that 20-30 years passed before the remarks were commonly attributed to Wilson. I wonder what happened in the interim.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

New Members:

Register Here

Learn more about the new message boards:

FAQ

Having problems?

Contact Us