TheCid

Impeachment AND Conviction, 25th Amendment or Censure

228 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, mr6666 said:

Why the Democrats Can (and Should) Impeach Trump

"....The first myth is that the president of the United States has to have broken the law in order to impeached. Nope, not true. Article 2, Section 4 of the Constitution says the president “Shall be removed from office on impeachment for and conviction of treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.” That famous phrase “High crimes and misdemeanors,” doesn’t refer to a criminal offense, to a felony. It refers to abuse of public office. It’s a political offense. 

The whole impeachment process is inherently political not criminal. And you don’t have to take my word for it Founding Father Alexander Hamilton in Federalist Number 65 defined impeachable offenses as,

“Those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men or in other words from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated political as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself. Abuse or violation of public trust, misconduct, injuries to society.”..........

“An impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history.”

Got it? Whatever the majority in the House considers it to be, not what’s defined by a federal criminal statute.....

Even without allegations of collusion, which by the way, I happen to think are serious and very credible allegations, even without Russia and Mueller, it’s crystal clear that this president is a collection of impeachable offenses made human.

Trump walks and talks high crimes and misdemeanors on a near-daily basis........

.... the current occupant of the Oval Office as “A clear and present danger to our democracy. President Trump’s actions,” she writes, “are indicative of a president who has established a different standard of justice for himself. Exactly the kind that we declared impermissible in Nixon’s articles of impeachment. He has done so at the expense of democracy and he’s done so at his own peril.” ...

You would think that once the country had gone through Watergate, the president would learn the lesson but apparently not. I mean we have too many similarities. As you mentioned, the firing of the FBI director who is conducting an investigation into the Trump campaign and its collusion with Russia, the talk about firing Mueller, the attacks on the Mueller investigation, the firing of Sessions, and most recently the appointment of someone who is obviously unfit to be Attorney General as acting Attorney General. .......

We have to just reach out and try, find the facts, find the law, educate the American people, and then trust that they will work, and speak out to preserve democracy. If the American people don’t want democracy, we’re not going to get it. No matter what we do.

MH: My worry is a lot of American people don’t want democracy these days.....

 

https://theintercept.com/2018/11/15/why-the-democrats-can-and-should-impeach-trump/

Who wrote this silly trash?      The GOP dominated Senate isn't going to come up with necessary 66 Senators for a conviction.      

So the question around impeachment is;  will it lead to Dem gains in the Senate in 2020?     I don't think it will.

Anyhow,   the Dems should be able to defeat Trump in the 2020 election,  right????    

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15 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Who wrote this silly trash?      The GOP dominated Senate isn't going to come up with necessary 66 Senators for a conviction.      

So the question around impeachment is;  will it lead to Dem gains in the Senate in 2020?     I don't think it will.

Anyhow,   the Dems should be able to defeat Trump in the 2020 election,  right????    

Michael Moore said Trump is most likely going to win in 2020 and I suspect he's right. Especially if Hillary runs again, we can basically just prepare for a second Trump term right now. 

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24 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Who wrote this silly trash?         

" Former Congresswoman Elizabeth Holtzman and author of the new book, “The Case For Impeaching Trump,” joins Mehdi Hasan this week to discuss the case for impeaching Donald Trump. She played a key role in the impeachment of Richard Nixon and believes that Donald Trump’s actions are “exactly the kind” that were declared impermissible in Nixon’s articles of impeachment. ..."

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1 minute ago, mr6666 said:

" Former Congresswoman Elizabeth Holtzman and author of the new book, “The Case For Impeaching Trump,” joins Mehdi Hasan this week to discuss the case for impeaching Donald Trump. She played a key role in the impeachment of Richard Nixon and believes that Donald Trump’s actions are “exactly the kind” that were declared impermissible in Nixon’s articles of impeachment. ..."

I don't think James denies that Trump deserves to be impeached. I think he's saying that the GOP is going to do all they can to stop that from happening and they control the senate. 

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Impeachment is a mistake.  Even Pelosi admits that. Unless someone can prove that Trump did something illegal without question.  So far, they can't.  It would also have to be serious and seen as serious by the people.  That is highly unlikely, especially in the Red and Purple states and probably even several Blue districts.

I remember when Nixon resigned.  There were a lot of people who believed he did not do anything wrong or that he should be removed from office for what he did.

Remember, Nixon was never impeached.  The Republican power structure convinced him that if he did not resign, he would be impeached and convicted.  However, those Republicans are long gone from the current party.

Clinton was impeached for vague, relatively minor reasons and the Senate failed to convict him.

Impeachment proceedings and a vote for impeachment would guarantee the GOP increases the number of GOP senators in 2020, Trump wins reelection and the House returns to GOP control.  Not to mention all the state governments that will revert to GOP control again.

Worse, it would take precious time and political capital from the Dems that they need to enact the things that America really needs.

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Thought I would bring this back as the issue seems to have arisen again.

Anyone who has not read this thread might want to start with the first post where I explain the differences between the processes.

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Majority in poll want Trump impeached or censured

By Max Greenwood - 12/28/18 11:18 AM EST
 
" Nearly 60 percent of U.S. voters surveyed say President Trump should be either impeached and removed from office or formally censured, according to a new Harvard CAPS/Harris poll released exclusively to The Hill. ....
 

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1 minute ago, mr6666 said:

Majority in poll want Trump impeached or censured

By Max Greenwood - 12/28/18 11:18 AM EST
 
" Nearly 60 percent of U.S. voters surveyed say President Trump should be either impeached and removed from office or formally censured, according to a new Harvard CAPS/Harris poll released exclusively to The Hill. ....
 

Formally censured?    No way is Twitter going to shut down his account.

 

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13 hours ago, mr6666 said:

Majority in poll want Trump impeached or censured

By Max Greenwood - 12/28/18 11:18 AM EST
 
" Nearly 60 percent of U.S. voters surveyed say President Trump should be either impeached and removed from office or formally censured, according to a new Harvard CAPS/Harris poll released exclusively to The Hill. ....
 

A formal censure by both houses of Congress would be a waste of time.  It carries no weight at all and Trump would brag about it.  Not going to happen anyway.

It really does not matter what 60% of the people in a poll say they want because it won't happen because Congress will not do it.  If 60% of the voters in each state elected Dems. to county and state offices and US House and Senate, something might happen to cause Trump to "retire."  Maybe.

Impeachment by a Pelosi House would be a disaster.  Valuable time overturning what Trump has done will lost and much needed programs will not be created.  It will also rile up his base and many independents, as well as the Republican Party voters so that he and the GOPers will win in 2020.  Plus the Senate would never convict him.

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Anthony Adams @anthonyadams9 16h16 hours ago

 
 

Here we are, in the last days of 2018, led by a man who, if he weren’t sworn into high office would be fighting in court to remain free on bail. If he were not the president,

would surely be a federal criminal defendant

...Let that sink in.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

And once again, this "policy of not indicting a sitting POTUS makes no sense.

If anything, a POTUS should be held to a higher standard.

At the very least, the POTUS office was not created to hide criminals.

-_-

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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19 hours ago, mr6666 said:

Anthony Adams @anthonyadams9 16h16 hours ago

 
 

Here we are, in the last days of 2018, led by a man who, if he weren’t sworn into high office would be fighting in court to remain free on bail. If he were not the president,

would surely be a federal criminal defendant

...Let that sink in.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

And once again, this "policy of not indicting a sitting POTUS makes no sense.

If anything, a POTUS should be held to a higher standard.

At the very least, the POTUS office was not created to hide criminals.

-_-

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Correct me if I am wrong, but so far he, his cohorts and his companies are only being investigated by the feds and New York.  So there is still no evidence released which would indict an indictment.  No actual charges have been filed nor any indication they should be.

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Impeach Donald Trump

Starting the process will rein in a president who is undermining American ideals

—and bring the debate about his fitness for office into Congress, where it belongs.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/impeachment-trump/580468/?utm_content=edit-promo&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_term=2019-01-17T14%3A04%3A09&utm_campaign=the-atlantic

DxKDa0DXcAAWjad.jpg

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24 minutes ago, mr6666 said:

Impeach Donald Trump

Starting the process will rein in a president who is undermining American ideals

—and bring the debate about his fitness for office into Congress, where it belongs.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/impeachment-trump/580468/?utm_content=edit-promo&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_term=2019-01-17T14%3A04%3A09&utm_campaign=the-atlantic

 

I skimmed the first third of this very long article.  While it does make a case for Trump not being fit for office and why he should not be there, it fails to make a case for impeachment.  Unfortunately stupidity, duplicity, childishness, meaness, egotism ad infinitum are not grounds for impeachment.

I also disagree that impeachment with no chance of conviction in the Senate is good enoungh by itself.  It is wrong and it will backfire on the Dems.  It will also distract them from doing the things they need to do to win elections in 2020-the majority of them.

When the Mueller report is released and all state and federal charges are brought out, impeachment may be in order.  Until then, focus on investigating the administration, Trump, his businesses and enacting legislation that they voters want.

As the Senate vote on Trump's cancelling the sanctions on Putin's good friend showed, the House by a huge margin voted to overturn Trump, but the Senate could not even get 58 votes of the 60 needed.  And the Senate overwhelming passed the sanctions originally while Trump was in office.

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"...... The question of whether impeachment is justified should not be confused with the question of whether it is likely to succeed in removing a president from office. The country will benefit greatly regardless of how the Senate ultimately votes. Even if the impeachment of Donald Trump fails to produce a conviction in the Senate, it can safeguard the constitutional order from a president who seeks to undermine it.

The protections of the process alone are formidable. They come in five distinct forms.

The first is that once an impeachment inquiry begins, the president loses control of the public conversation ....

... In these five ways—shifting the public’s attention to the president’s debilities, tipping the balance of power away from him, skimming off the froth of conspiratorial thinking, moving the fight to a rule-bound forum, and dealing lasting damage to his political prospects—the impeachment process has succeeded in the past.

In fact, it’s the very efficacy of these past efforts that should give Congress pause; it’s a process that should be triggered only when a president’s betrayal of his basic duties requires it. But Trump’s conduct clearly meets that threshold.

The only question is whether Congress will act. ....

It is Trump’s unfitness for office that necessitates impeachment; his attacks on American democracy are plainly evident, and should be sufficient. ........

Today, the United States once more confronts a president who seems to care for only some of the people he represents, who promises his supporters that he can roll back the tide of diversity, who challenges the rule of law, and who regards constitutional rights and liberties as disposable.

Congress must again decide whether the greater risk lies in executing the Constitution as it was written, or in deferring to voters to do what it cannot muster the courage to do itself ......."

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50 minutes ago, mr6666 said:

"...... The question of whether impeachment is justified should not be confused with the question of whether it is likely to succeed in removing a president from office. The country will benefit greatly regardless of how the Senate ultimately votes. Even if the impeachment of Donald Trump fails to produce a conviction in the Senate, it can safeguard the constitutional order from a president who seeks to undermine it.

The protections of the process alone are formidable. They come in five distinct forms.

The first is that once an impeachment inquiry begins, the president loses control of the public conversation ....

... In these five ways—shifting the public’s attention to the president’s debilities, tipping the balance of power away from him, skimming off the froth of conspiratorial thinking, moving the fight to a rule-bound forum, and dealing lasting damage to his political prospects—the impeachment process has succeeded in the past.

In fact, it’s the very efficacy of these past efforts that should give Congress pause; it’s a process that should be triggered only when a president’s betrayal of his basic duties requires it. But Trump’s conduct clearly meets that threshold.

The only question is whether Congress will act. ....

It is Trump’s unfitness for office that necessitates impeachment; his attacks on American democracy are plainly evident, and should be sufficient. ........

Today, the United States once more confronts a president who seems to care for only some of the people he represents, who promises his supporters that he can roll back the tide of diversity, who challenges the rule of law, and who regards constitutional rights and liberties as disposable.

Congress must again decide whether the greater risk lies in executing the Constitution as it was written, or in deferring to voters to do what it cannot muster the courage to do itself ......."

As I have said before, this article may sound good but it is a pitfall for the Dems.  Trump should not be president, but the majority of voters will be repulsed by any attempt to impeach him.  It will result in massive GOP gains in 2020 at county, state and federal levels - it include the presidency.

The Senate GOPers will go to extraordinary lengths to expose Dem biases.  Even without that, it is doomed to failure in the Senate.  And that will be a huge embarassment for the Dems come election time.  There will be Senate Dems who vote against conviction.

Now, if there really is something clearcut, substantiated and proven with hard evidence, maybe....  However, the Dems need to work the Senate and at least get a good number of GOPers to vote to convict, even if cannot muster the 2/3's.

Bill Clinton was impeached and he and the Dems won in the next elections.

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26 minutes ago, TheCid said:

Bill Clinton was impeached and he and the Dems won in the next elections.

Bill Clinton was impeached in 1998, halfway through his second term. He was not re-elected as he could not run, and in fact the presidency switched parties in the next election, as you know. The Republicans also maintained control of the House. The Senate was a different story, with Democrats gaining four seats, leaving it 50/50, with incoming VP Cheney the tie-breaker.

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1 minute ago, LawrenceA said:

Bill Clinton was impeached in 1998, halfway through his second term. He was not re-elected as he could not run, and in fact the presidency switched parties in the next election, as you know. The Republicans also maintained control of the House. The Senate was a different story, with Democrats gaining four seats, leaving it 50/50, with incoming VP Cheney the tie-breaker.

Interesting.  I stand corrected.  Can't believe everything you read on the internet.  Regardless, he was not convicted.  

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29 minutes ago, TheCid said:

Interesting.  I stand corrected.  Can't believe everything you read on the internet.  Regardless, he was not convicted.  

Could you be thinking of Andrew Johnson? He was impeached and was a democrat but he was replaced by a Republican. Democrats regained control of the House in the 1874 elections.

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"...... Democrats’ fear—that impeachment will backfire on them—is likewise unfounded. The mistake Republicans made in impeaching Bill Clinton wasn’t a matter of timing. They identified real and troubling misconduct—then applied the wrong remedy to fix it.

Clinton’s acts disgraced the presidency, and his lies under oath and efforts to obstruct the investigation may well have been crimes.

The question that determines whether an act is impeachable, though, is whether it endangers American democracy. .........

“The purpose of impeachment is not personal punishment; its function is primarily to maintain constitutional government.”

Impeachable offenses, it found, included “undermining the integrity of office, disregard of constitutional duties and oath of office, arrogation of power, abuse of the governmental process, adverse impact on the system of government.” .........

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Natasha BertrandVerified account @NatashaBertrand 20h20 hours ago

 

A question that’s being raised more and more—why wait for the Mueller report?

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/impeachment-trump/580468/ 

=========================================================

Chris MurphyVerified account @ChrisMurphyCT

 
 
Chris Murphy Retweeted BuzzFeed News

Listen, if Mueller does have multiple sources confirming Trump directed Cohen to lie to Congress, then we need to know this ASAP.

Mueller shouldn't end his inquiry, but it's about time for him to show Congress his cards before it's too late for us to act.

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45 minutes ago, mr6666 said:

Natasha BertrandVerified account @NatashaBertrand 20h20 hours ago

 

A question that’s being raised more and more—why wait for the Mueller report?

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/impeachment-trump/580468/ 

=========================================================

Chris MurphyVerified account @ChrisMurphyCT

 
 
Chris Murphy Retweeted BuzzFeed News

Listen, if Mueller does have multiple sources confirming Trump directed Cohen to lie to Congress, then we need to know this ASAP.

Mueller shouldn't end his inquiry, but it's about time for him to show Congress his cards before it's too late for us to act.

It's just now being reported on Fox News that special counsel's office says Buzzfeed report about Trump/Cohen is "Not Accurate".Disputes the report.

 

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NPR PoliticsVerified account @nprpolitics 27m27 minutes ago

 
 

JUST IN: Special counsel Robert Mueller's office has issued a rare statement disputing BuzzFeed News' report that President Trump directed his former lawyer, Michael Cohen, to lie to Congress.

 

"BuzzFeed's description of specific statements to the Special Counsel's Office, and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office, regarding Michael Cohen's Congressional testimony are not accurate," Peter Carr, a spokesman for Mueller's office, said.

===================================

not exactly a denial :unsure:

-inaccurate in WHAT WAY??

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NBC PoliticsVerified account @NBCPolitics 3m3 minutes ago

 
 

JUST IN: BuzzFeed editor-in-chief responds to the special counsel's new statement: "We stand by our reporting and the sources who informed it, and we urge the Special Counsel to make clear what he's disputing."

 
 

“We have seen documents. We have been briefed on documents. We are very confident in our reporting," BuzzFeed News reporter Jason Leopold, who co-wrote bombshell new report, says.

 

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15 hours ago, Gershwin fan said:

Could you be thinking of Andrew Johnson? He was impeached and was a democrat but he was replaced by a Republican. Democrats regained control of the House in the 1874 elections.

No, I got my facts wrong (used alternative facts).  I thought I had read somewhere that it occured before the election for Clinton's second term.  Obviously my source was wrong or my memory.

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13 hours ago, mr6666 said:

NPR PoliticsVerified account @nprpolitics 27m27 minutes ago

 
 

JUST IN: Special counsel Robert Mueller's office has issued a rare statement disputing BuzzFeed News' report that President Trump directed his former lawyer, Michael Cohen, to lie to Congress.

 

"BuzzFeed's description of specific statements to the Special Counsel's Office, and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office, regarding Michael Cohen's Congressional testimony are not accurate," Peter Carr, a spokesman for Mueller's office, said.

===================================

not exactly a denial :unsure:

-inaccurate in WHAT WAY??

The important fact here is that Mueller's office issued a statement, something it very rarely has done.  Obviously they thought the Buzzfeed report was so erroneous as to warrant repudiation.

Right now, this makes the Dems who jumped on it to advocate impeachment look pretty bad.  It also calls into question much of what the impeachment frenzy people are saying and doing. 

Perhaps the long range strategy for the Dems is to advance those "pocket book" and other issues that the majority of voters find important, get best candidates to run for office in 2020 and to defeat Trump and take over the Senate while keeping the House.  THEN they can talk about impeachment if Trump wins reelection.
 

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