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mr6666

Immigration Policy?

215 posts in this topic

The 10 dead in #Texas immigrant-smuggling case just the latest of such tragedies....

 

"Nine immigrants smuggled in a tractor-trailer have died. They were among nearly 40 people found in the back of the truck parked outside a Walmart in Texas in what police are calling a horrific human trafficking case. Many of the several dozen survivors are in dire condition, suffering from heatstroke and dehydration after being trapped in the sweltering truck overnight.

 

The tragedy has shined a fresh spotlight on the often deadly conditions that desperate migrants endure at the hands of smugglers and human traffickers. Others have died under similar circumstances before:..........

 

https://apnews.com/256f01a33c4f4e0d9742ef3fa84c8c79?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=APCentralRegio

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With a Michigan City Fighting Back, DHS Pushes a Controversial Deportation Forward-

 

"In the face of intense community opposition, immigration officials are vowing to push ahead with plans to deport a 20-year Ann Arbor, Michigan, resident.

 

Immigration and Customs Enforcement has ordered Lourdes Salazar-Bautista, 49, to leave the country by August 2. The local community and elected officials have rallied in support of the mother of three, but ICE spokesperson Khaalid Walls told The Intercept that the agency will not back down...........

 

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/23/with-a-michigan-city-fighting-back-dhs-pushes-a-controversial-deportation-forward/

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Senators Engage in a New Bipartisan Effort to Pass Dream Act-

 

"Two senators from opposite sides of the aisle are joining together to try to pass the Dream Act, a piece of legislation that would pave the way for illegal immigrants to gain U.S. citizenship. Sen. Richard J. Durbin, a Democrat from Illinois, and Sen. Lindsey Graham, a Republican from South Carolina, are hoping for success this time around, as numerous versions of the legislation have been introduced in the past only to result in failure.

 

The Washington Post explains:...

 

...The Post notes that, according to the Migration Policy Institute, “1.8 million immigrants would qualify for conditional legal status under the proposed Dream Act, and a subset of 1.5 million probably would meet the criteria for green cards.”....

 

.......“To President Trump, you’re going to have to make a decision. The campaign is over,” Sen. Graham told the Post. “To the Republican Party: Who are we? What do we believe? ... When they write the history of these times, I’m going to be with these kids.”

 

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/sen_graham_sen_durbin_bipartisan_effort_dream_act_immigration_20170722

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Ending This Immigration Program Would Devastate the Economy-

 

".......Maintaining DACA is not only right for young immigrants like Israel, it is also smart. The economic benefits of DACA are clear. With DACA in effect, recipients are getting higher levels of education and using their skills and training to get better jobs. This means higher wages and more tax revenue. According to a 2016 Center for American Progress study, recipients are also buying cars and houses and starting new businesses, all of which means more tax revenue to cities and states across the country.

 

Should the program be terminated, however, the losses would be devastating..........

 

http://fortune.com/2017/07/21/daca-dream-act-2017-new-immigration-news/

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The only good thing the Trump admin has done is combating Illegal immigration.  

 

Illegal crossings are way down, and,  related to that first post,   coyotes that prey on illegal immigrants, and finding it difficult to get customers, which mean less people are being exploited as well as less people dying trying to illegal come to the USA.    

 

As for DACA:  The main justification for DACA is that minors that were brought to the USA are innocent and didn't willingly break US law by coming here.    That is true and therefore they should be allowed to stay and become citizens,  but NOT those that brought them here.  They knowingly decided to become illegal immigrants and should NOT be rewarded.    

 

While in certain segments of the economy additional work visas should be granted,  in many cases work visas are used by greedy employers to lower the pay of all workers.    Tech companies claim they can't find US workers,  but the reality is they want to able to hire foreign workers at a lower cost.

 

In addition ICE needs to focus more on companies that hire illegal immigrants and Congress should increase the sanctions to really hurt those companies.    I.e. focus on US employers and NOT illegal immigrants and without jobs illegal immigrants will self deport (as well as not come in the first place).

 

The overall Dem position of,  open borders (or at least 'if you get it, don't worry,  you can stay'),  amnesty for everyone,  even criminals (I assume this since they support Sanctuary cities not having to report criminals to ICE),  and those that just came over last week,  are the extreme and illogical positions.  (as well as items the Dem has NO power to implement).

 

Just like the GOP overpromised as it relates to repealing and replacing the ACA,   the Dems overpromised the illegal immigrants and their supporters that the vast majority would be able to stay  and then bring over more and more family members.     NOT going to happen,  so the Dems would be wise to work with the GOP to at least salvage DACA and maybe get visas for illegal immigrants that have been in the USA over 10 years that have NOT committed any crimes.       

   

 

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The better thing to do is to NOT wrap all illegal immigrants in the same cloth.

 

Sure, they had no business getting over here illegally to begin with, but once here, many HAVE  been industrious and basically law abiding people.  And still others, who HAVE committed crimes but have also PAYED the required "debt to society" shoud be allowed to remain but take necessary steps toward naturalization.  And of course, deport those known for criminal activity but never answered for any of it and are currently just loitering around with no job or actively looking for substantial employment.  And that would call for the creation of HUNDREDS or more jobs in order to handle the workload.  And jobs that CAN'T be "outsourced" to India or China.  Which is probably why the Trump crowd hasn't moved in that direction. 

 

And the only way I see deporting illegal immigrants will HURT the economy is by the increase of the cost to consumers for the goods manufactured by companies that hire the illegals, which they'll probably increase DOUBLE of what it actually costs them to hire U.S. citizens or "documented" aliens, which they WOULDN'T be able to get away with paying "under the table".

 

 

Sepiatone

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"Joe Arpaio, the former sheriff who garnered nationwide attention for his crackdown on illegal immigration, has been convicted of criminal contempt by a federal judge in Arizona. The ruling carries a possible maximum sentence of six months in jail and a monetary fine for the 85-year-old Arpaio.

 

The misdemeanor criminal conviction handed down Monday by District Judge Susan Bolton found that Arpaio knowingly violated a federal judge's order in 2011.

At that time, Arpaio was told he could not detain immigrants simply because they lacked legal status — but for 18 months, his deputies carried on with the practice...

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/07/31/540629884/ex-sheriff-joe-arpaio-convicted-of-criminal-contempt?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20170731

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The better thing to do is to NOT wrap all illegal immigrants in the same cloth.

 

Sure, they had no business getting over here illegally to begin with, but once here, many HAVE  been industrious and basically law abiding people.  And still others, who HAVE committed crimes but have also PAYED the required "debt to society" shoud be allowed to remain but take necessary steps toward naturalization.  And of course, deport those known for criminal activity but never answered for any of it and are currently just loitering around with no job or actively looking for substantial employment.  And that would call for the creation of HUNDREDS or more jobs in order to handle the workload.  And jobs that CAN'T be "outsourced" to India or China.  Which is probably why the Trump crowd hasn't moved in that direction. 

 

And the only way I see deporting illegal immigrants will HURT the economy is by the increase of the cost to consumers for the goods manufactured by companies that hire the illegals, which they'll probably increase DOUBLE of what it actually costs them to hire U.S. citizens or "documented" aliens, which they WOULDN'T be able to get away with paying "under the table".

 

 

Sepiatone

 

It is the Dem party that "wrap all illegal immigrants in the same cloth" and NOT the GOP or Trump Admin, especially here in CA.   They used the illogical and bogus reasoning that families shouldn't be broken apart to justify that even illegal immigrant criminals should be turned over to ICE. 

 

I see you use this bogus line: "basically law abiding people":   Basically?   I guess NOT paying taxes by working under the table means one is basically law abiding.   

 

As for how to deal with illegal immigrants;  Mandate e-verify,  utilize IRS info (dup or invalid SSN numbers are easy to detect and a clear sign someone is illegal)  and increase the fine \ penalty on employers,  big time.     Without jobs most illegal immigrants will self-deport.  

 

Of course increase work visas in those job sectors that can't find workers but only after reducing welfare, food stamps and other handouts for able bodied Americans.    I.e. the bogus line 'those are jobs Americans wouldn't do' is only true because those Americans would rather get a handout than work.  

 

Yes,  prices for some goods and services will go up but not like you're implying.  That is the same line of BS used by conservatives for increasing the minimum wage.     Some goods and service will increase by around 10% because of cost increases to pay Americans but to me that is well worth it instead of employers exploiting illegal immigrant workers.

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It is the Dem party that "wrap all illegal immigrants in the same cloth" and NOT the GOP or Trump Admin, especially here in CA. They used the illogical and bogus reasoning that families shouldn't be broken apart to justify that even illegal immigrant criminals should be turned over to ICE.

 

I see you use this bogus line: "basically law abiding people": Basically? I guess NOT paying taxes by working under the table means one is basically law abiding.

 

As for how to deal with illegal immigrants; Mandate e-verify, utilize IRS info (dup or invalid SSN numbers are easy to detect and a clear sign someone is illegal) and increase the fine \ penalty on employers, big time. Without jobs most illegal immigrants will self-deport.

 

Of course increase work visas in those job sectors that can't find workers but only after reducing welfare, food stamps and other handouts for able bodied Americans. I.e. the bogus line 'those are jobs Americans wouldn't do' is only true because those Americans would rather get a handout than work.

 

Yes, prices for some goods and services will go up but not like you're implying. That is the same line of BS used by conservatives for increasing the minimum wage. Some goods and service will increase by around 10% because of cost increases to pay Americans but to me that is well worth it instead of employers exploiting illegal immigrant workers.

 

First and foremost, I think what we're missing with this discussion is that people who are here illegally have already committed a crime. And the onus is upon them to find a legal way out of that situation or to go back where they came from.

 

It's also unfair the way employers take advantage of illegal workers. The Republican Chambers of Commerce have a lot to do with the employer's victimizing of illegal workers-- why we can't get more accountability with the employers and hold them legally responsible for the illegals they hire.

 

 

Unfortunately with the minimum wage being as it is in so many states and also many people working for less than the federal minimum wage, food stamps are often necessary for people who have jobs. These Americans are called The Working Poor and they deserve all the help they can get.

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First and foremost, I think what we're missing with this discussion is that people who are here illegally have already committed a crime. And the onus is upon them to find a legal way out of that situation or to go back where they came from.

 

It's also unfair the way employers take advantage of illegal workers. The Republican Chambers of Commerce have a lot to do with the employer's victimizing of illegal workers-- why we can't get more accountability with the employers and hold them legally responsible for the illegals they hire.

 

 

Unfortunately with the minimum wage being as it is in so many states and also many people working for less than the federal minimum wage, food stamps are often necessary for people who have jobs. These Americans are called The Working Poor and they deserve all the help they can get.

 

Wow,  you appear to be more conservative on illegal immigration than me,  but I don't disagree with anything you say here.   I often mention that it is the GOP lead and financed Chambers of Commerce that is against any employer sanctions as it relates to hiring illegal immigrant and even against the mandate to use E-verity.    There motive is clear;  they want to allow US business to exploit illegal immigrants and to keep wages down.   

 

As for Food Stamps;  Ok,  yes, some 'working poor' do require food stamps, especially those in states that don't have a minimum that is a lot higher than the Fed min.     So I stand corrected in this regard.

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Wow, you appear to be more conservative on illegal immigration than me, but I don't disagree with anything you say here. I often mention that it is the GOP lead and financed Chambers of Commerce that is against any employer sanctions as it relates to hiring illegal immigrant and even against the mandate to use E-verity. There motive is clear; they want to allow US business to exploit illegal immigrants and to keep wages down.

 

As for Food Stamps; Ok, yes, some 'working poor' do require food stamps, especially those in states that don't have a minimum that is a lot higher than the Fed min. So I stand corrected in this regard.

 

James,

 

You've had a lot of good posts on immigration policy and I've been following them for some time now.

 

As for myself, you may recall a number of times that I said I was not a liberal.

 

I don't follow any party line, I just take every issue on its own individual merits and let the chips fall where they may.

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Wow,  you appear to be more conservative on illegal immigration than me,  but I don't disagree with anything you say here.   I often mention that it is the GOP lead and financed Chambers of Commerce that is against any employer sanctions as it relates to hiring illegal immigrant and even against the mandate to use E-verity.    There motive is clear;  they want to allow US business to exploit illegal immigrants and to keep wages down.   

 

As for Food Stamps;  Ok,  yes, some 'working poor' do require food stamps, especially those in states that don't have a minimum that is a lot higher than the Fed min.     So I stand corrected in this regard.

 

And I'll correct one more thing.....

 

It's NOT to keep wages DOWN as much as it's to keep profits  UP.  Thereby providing that much more "soap" with which to keep washing each other's backs.

 

 

Sepiatone

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And I'll correct one more thing.....

 

It's NOT to keep wages DOWN as much as it's to keep profits  UP.  Thereby providing that much more "soap" with which to keep washing each other's backs.

 

 

Sepiatone

 

I don't see where you're correcting anything;  Keeping wages DOWN,  keeps profits UP.    To me your reply smells of trolling.  But that is fine,  we all do that from time to time.   :D

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Trump is supporting a proposed Senate immigration bill which would be merit-based: cutting legal immigration in half and favoring English-speaking applicants who can demonstrate job skills.

 

Two Republican Senators, David Perdue of Georgia and Tom Cotton of Arkansas, are sponsoring the bill called the RAISE Act.

 

 

Source: Washington Times, 8/2/17

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Trump is supporting a proposed Senate immigration bill which would be merit-based: cutting legal immigration in half and favoring English-speaking applicants who can demonstrate job skills.

 

Two Republican Senators, David Perdue of Georgia and Tom Cotton of Arkansas, are sponsoring the bill called the RAISE Act.

 

 

Source: Washington Times, 8/2/17

 

A merit-based system,  like that in Canada,  is the way to go.     In that system points are granted based on certain criteria.  In Canada the average education level of those allowed to immigrate (excluding refuges) is higher than that of the general population.

 

As for the 'favoring English-speaking';   I can see that as a criteria in the points system,  but it should be weighted on the very low-end when compared to other criteria.   

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Canada's 'merit-based' immigration system -

 

"Canada's immigration system, which President Trump praised Tuesday night, has served as a model for countries around the world because it focuses more on immigrants who can contribute to the economy than those with little more than family ties.

 

About 63% of those granted legal permanent residence in Canada — the final step before becoming citizens — are admitted for their economic skills, with only 24% admitted based on having family members living in the country. The U.S. system is reversed: 63% of green cards are given to immigrants with family connections, and only 13% given based on economic reasons.

 

Canada was also the first country to use a point system to grade economic immigrants — a 100-point scale that rewards foreigners with PhDs and extensive work experience in specialized fields.....

 

Applicants are given a score on a 100-point scale, with points awarded in six categories:

• 28 maximum points for language skills. The more fluent they are in English and French, Canada's two official languages, the more points they get.

• 25 points for education — 5 for a high school diploma, 19 for a two-year college degree, 25 for a PhD.

• 15 maximum points for work experience — the more skilled the job, and the more years spent doing it, the more points.

• 12 maximum points for age — the younger the applicant, the more points awarded.

• 10 points maximum if they have a current job offer from a Canadian employer.

• 10 points maximum for "adaptability," which includes things like family ties to Canadians or past visits to the country.

Those who score 67 points or higher are eligible to immigrate. Immediate relatives of Canadian citizens do not go through the grading process.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/03/01/donald-trump-canada-immigration-system-merit-based/98594790/

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A merit-based system,  like that in Canada,  is the way to go.     In that system points are granted based on certain criteria.  In Canada the average education level of those allowed to immigrate (excluding refuges) is higher than that of the general population.

 

As for the 'favoring English-speaking';   I can see that as a criteria in the points system,  but it should be weighted on the very low-end when compared to other criteria.   

 

The problem, as I see it, is if a "merit" based system somehow gets to be retroactive, AND with the "favoring English speaking" clause, then there's probably MILLIONS of "natural born" American citizens that'll get deported!  ;)

 

Hmph......"Designer Immigrants".   Sure......"Let Freedom Ring"  :rolleyes:  Sepiatone

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Why Trump’s New Immigration Bill Makes Sense-

Hey, it works in Canada.

:unsure:

 

 

"....It’s not as if low-skill workers will stop coming under the Cotton Perdue bill. The proposal leaves unchanged the family preference system as it applies to spouses and minor children. That specific provision of current policy allowed the entry of millions of low-skill persons in the past 50 years, and would continue to do so in the future.

The difference now is that the larger fraction of high-skill workers coming into the country will help defray the costs of continued low-skill immigration.

 

The forthcoming debate over the bill would be much more productive if instead of name-calling and accusations about motives we focused on a simple question.

Is the “deal” implicit in the Cotton-Perdue bill really such a bad compromise with our historical legacy?"

 

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/04/why-trumps-new-immigration-bill-makes-sense-215457

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These Are the Technology Firms Lining Up to Build Trump’s “Extreme Vetting” Program-

 

 

...ICE: a system that will serve as an “overarching vetting” machine “that automates, centralizes, and streamlines the current manual vetting process while simultaneously making determinations via automation if the data retrieved is actionable” in order to “implement the President’s various Executive Orders (EOs) that address American immigration and border protection security and interests.”...

 

 

ICE’s hope is that this privately developed software will help go far beyond matters of legality to matters of the heart. The system must “determine and evaluate an applicant’s probability of becoming a positively contributing member of society, as well as their ability to contribute to national interests” and predict “whether an applicant intends to commit criminal or terrorist acts after entering the United States.” Using software to this end is certainly in line with Trump’s campaign rhetoric —

 

....a pointed question from an unnamed contractor about the potential for the entire plan to be foiled by the American Civil Liberties Union:

 

 

 

Five years ago the FBI tried to accomplish the objectives that are being stated here and the ACLU shut it down. The FBI tried to [do] this type of contract in the past and the ACLU shut them down. Does ICE realize the problems of the past and what happened before?

 

But ICE doesn’t seem particularly worried, explaining........“The prediction is that in the near future there will be legislation addressing what you can and can’t do,” the agency answered. “We will continue to do it until someone says that we can’t.”

 

https://theintercept.com/2017/08/07/these-are-the-technology-firms-lining-up-to-build-trumps-extreme-vetting-program/

:wacko:

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These Are the Technology Firms Lining Up to Build Trump’s “Extreme Vetting” Program-

 

 

...ICE: a system that will serve as an “overarching vetting” machine “that automates, centralizes, and streamlines the current manual vetting process while simultaneously making determinations via automation if the data retrieved is actionable” in order to “implement the President’s various Executive Orders (EOs) that address American immigration and border protection security and interests.”...

 

 

ICE’s hope is that this privately developed software will help go far beyond matters of legality to matters of the heart. The system must “determine and evaluate an applicant’s probability of becoming a positively contributing member of society, as well as their ability to contribute to national interests” and predict “whether an applicant intends to commit criminal or terrorist acts after entering the United States.” Using software to this end is certainly in line with Trump’s campaign rhetoric —

 

....a pointed question from an unnamed contractor about the potential for the entire plan to be foiled by the American Civil Liberties Union:

 

 

 

Five years ago the FBI tried to accomplish the objectives that are being stated here and the ACLU shut it down. The FBI tried to [do] this type of contract in the past and the ACLU shut them down. Does ICE realize the problems of the past and what happened before?

 

But ICE doesn’t seem particularly worried, explaining........“The prediction is that in the near future there will be legislation addressing what you can and can’t do,” the agency answered. “We will continue to do it until someone says that we can’t.”

 

 

Uber changed the transportation industry.    We should give software a chance as it relates to vetting.    As noted in the article there will be groups like the ACLU to monitor this software to ensure it doesn't violate the Constitution.

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Breaking news - - this just in:

 

Tentatively Trump has decided to end DACA within a six-month window.

 

Upon the advice of Attorney General Sessions, reportedly Trump wants to give Congress the opportunity to act, within the next 6 months, as immigration policy is within their jurisdiction.

 

Reportedly the DACA affects 800,000 illegal immigrants.

 

Source: Politico

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More than 800,000 are affected.  They have family members, friends, neighbors, employers, co-workers, etc.  This hurts millions and will harm the economy which is why industry leaders have come out against ending it.  These young people were brought here as children and infants through no fault of their own.  They are working, defending our country, going to school, etc.  The cruelty of Trump knows no end.  I don't give a rat's *** about throwing another bone to his "base."   I hope and pray Congress will do something to rectify this.  This is just heartless and evil.

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45]WgL6QUYv_bigger.jpgSam SteinVerified account @samstein

 

 

More

Would Trump even sign a DREAM Act-like bill if Congress somehow found a way to pass it?

 

 

45]oRkuWLIT_bigger.jpgMatt McDermottVerified account @mattmfm

 

 

More

Reminder: there are enough votes in both House and Senate to secure DACA legislatively. No reason McConnell and Ryan can't pass clean bill.

6 months is a fair amount of time. But with this trump presidency's

chaotic lack of stability, it's hard to say what will be even going on in

6 months, much less who will even be in charge in 6 months.

 

 

This is such an important issue because it affects much more than the approximately 800,000 People involved directly in the program.

 

It probably indirectly affects several million people or more when you count family and businesses involved.

 

I wonder if Trump even realizes that?

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6 months is a fair amount of time. But with this trump presidency's

chaotic lack of stability, it's hard to say what will be even going on in

6 months, much less who will even be in charge in 6 months.

 

 

This is such an important issue because it affects much more than the approximately 800,000 People involved directly in the program.

 

It probably indirectly affects several million people or more when you count family and businesses involved.

 

I wonder if Trump even realizes that?

 

The GOP shouldn't try to pass a 'clean bill' since that is what the Dems want and on illegal immigration the Dems need to give up on some of the entitlement promises they made to illegal immigrants.

 

Therefore the bill needs to have something that illegal immigrant advocates do NOT want,  especially as it relates to 'newly' arrived illegal immigrants.   (a group that even most Dem voters believe are NOT entitled to just violate US laws).

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