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mr6666

America's Gun Culture...

1,364 posts in this topic

13 minutes ago, TheCid said:

I watched the video on one of the news channels.  I can see real problems for FL defending stand your ground without a lot of explaining.  They probably will or the jury will if it gets to trial.

I believe the shooter should be charged and the case put before a jury mainly so the citizens of Florida can get a better understanding of when SYG applies or doesn't.   

After viewing the video,   I don't think it does in this case.    NOW,   if the guy had shot the man BEFORE he was pushed SYG might apply;  I.e. the shooter could claim he felt he was facing possible serious bodily harm because a much larger guy was rushing towards him to attack him.     (also if verbal threats were made).

BUT as shown in the video,  after the shooter was pushed,  the attacker clearly was leaving the situation and his back was towards the shooter;   therefore the shooter was no longer facing any possible serious bodily harm and SYG doesn't apply.

   

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6 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

I believe the shooter should be charged and the case put before a jury mainly so the citizens of Florida can get a better understanding of when SYG applies or doesn't.   

After viewing the video,   I don't think it does in this case.    NOW,   if the guy had shot the man BEFORE he was pushed SYG might apply;  I.e. the shooter could claim he felt he was facing possible serious bodily harm because a much larger guy was rushing towards him to attack him.     (also if verbal threats were made).

BUT as shown in the video,  after the shooter was pushed,  the attacker clearly was leaving the situation and his back was towards the shooter;   therefore the shooter was no longer facing any possible serious bodily harm and SYG doesn't apply.

   

I too would like to see it go to court, but suspect that a FL jury would find that SYG applied because he thought the "attacker" might come back.  Of course, the Trayvon Martin case may make juries more cautious.

One factor that actually is in the shooter's favor is that he was very forcibly attacked by a very large man.  Would have been better if the pushing had not occurred or at least not forcefully enough to knock the man to the ground.

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11 minutes ago, TheCid said:

I too would like to see it go to court, but suspect that a FL jury would find that SYG applied because he thought the "attacker" might come back.

I don't see how thinking the attacker might come back could be a SYG defense but,  yea,  one never knows.

I.e. I would think the attacker MUST come back.   E.g. if after the push (which was an assault) and the attacker walking away from the scene,  the attacker had turned around and went back towards the victim,  then the victim r would have every right to shoot (even in a non-SYG state).

 

 

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:rolleyes:

Sessions must investigate Florida 'stand your ground' death, lawmakers say

"Florida's Stand Your Ground law has created a culture of impunity where communities of color are disproportionately affected," said one congressman.

Florida Sen. Bill Nelson tweeted that he sent a signed letter to Attorney General Jeff Sessions and acting Assistant Attorney General John Gore, of the DOJ's civil rights division, for an investigation to be opened. Florida congressmen Charlie Crist and Alcee Hastings, as well as California Sen. Kamala Harris and New Jersey Sen. Corey Booker also signed their support.

 

"The Justice Department must actively investigate violent crimes with potential racial undertones to determine if charges should be filed," Hastings said in a statement. "Florida's Stand Your Ground law has created a culture of impunity where communities of color are disproportionately affected."

The DOJ declined to comment about the letter.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/sessions-must-investigate-florida-stand-your-ground-death-lawmakers-say-n895356

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17 hours ago, mr6666 said:

:rolleyes:

Sessions must investigate Florida 'stand your ground' death, lawmakers say

"Florida's Stand Your Ground law has created a culture of impunity where communities of color are disproportionately affected," said one congressman.

Florida Sen. Bill Nelson tweeted that he sent a signed letter to Attorney General Jeff Sessions and acting Assistant Attorney General John Gore, of the DOJ's civil rights division, for an investigation to be opened. Florida congressmen Charlie Crist and Alcee Hastings, as well as California Sen. Kamala Harris and New Jersey Sen. Corey Booker also signed their support.

 

"The Justice Department must actively investigate violent crimes with potential racial undertones to determine if charges should be filed," Hastings said in a statement. "Florida's Stand Your Ground law has created a culture of impunity where communities of color are disproportionately affected."

The DOJ declined to comment about the letter.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/sessions-must-investigate-florida-stand-your-ground-death-lawmakers-say-n895356

In a very close race, Nelson has offended a lot of Floridians.  I don't disagree with his position, but appears politically unwise to ask the US AG to investigate your own state.

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2 hours ago, TheCid said:

In a very close race, Nelson has offended a lot of Floridians.  I don't disagree with his position, but appears politically unwise to ask the US AG to investigate your own state.

Really politically unwise to ask the Feds to investigate the actions of your own state;   That comes off as being a sore loser;  i.e. can't convince voters on a policy stance so you have to bring in the Feds.   Weak.   (in addition I assume citizens of Florida have filed a lawsuit (e.g. after the Martin case),  in Federal Court with regards to SYG being in violation of the Civil-Rights act.

As for SYG being racially bias;   My understanding is that more NON-Whites are shot by someone using a SYG defense but that more NON-Whites use a SYG defense.    E.g. confrontations between two or more NON-White gang members.    Another example where Data is needed because media reporting is going to focus 99% on White and NON-White confrontations.   (and too many people make up their mind based only on what they see in the media).

   

 

  

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NRATVVerified account @NRATV

 

"They're trying to do to #countrymusic what they've done to football

and they're happy to use people like Eric Church to do it... @ericchurch you're turning around and spitting on the very people who made your career." —@DLoesch #NRA #FridayFeeling

-------------------------------------------------

VoteVetsVerified account @votevets 3h3 hours ago

 
 

VoteVets Retweeted NRATV

Let’s all go to @iTunes right now & download @ericchurch albums

He understands what our Veterans do, that weapons we carried in war don’t belong, on our streets or in our schools! #VetsVsTheNRA

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Church, who’s a gun owner, described himself as “a Second Amendment guy.”

“That’s in the Constitution, it’s people’s right, and I don’t believe it’s negotiable. But nobody should have that many guns and that much ammunition and we don’t know about it. Nobody should have 21 AKs and 10,000 rounds of ammunition and we don’t know who they are. Something’s gotta be done so that a person can’t have an armory and pin down a Las Vegas SWAT team for six minutes. That’s **** up.”

 

However, Church also supports gun control measures such as closing the gun-show loopholes, improving background checks and banning bump stocks.

“As a gun guy, the number of rounds [the shooter] fired was un-****-believable to me,” he said. “I saw a video on YouTube from the police officer’s vest cam, and it sounded like an army was up there. I don’t think our forefathers ever thought the right to bear arms was that.”

 

Church blamed the NRA for blocking reform. 

“There are some things we can’t stop,” he said. “Like the disgruntled kid who takes his dad’s shotgun and walks into a high school.

But we could have stopped the guy in Vegas.”

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4 minutes ago, mr6666 said:

Church, who’s a gun owner, described himself as “a Second Amendment guy.”

“That’s in the Constitution, it’s people’s right, and I don’t believe it’s negotiable. But nobody should have that many guns and that much ammunition and we don’t know about it. Nobody should have 21 AKs and 10,000 rounds of ammunition and we don’t know who they are. Something’s gotta be done so that a person can’t have an armory and pin down a Las Vegas SWAT team for six minutes. That’s **** up.”

 

However, Church also supports gun control measures such as closing the gun-show loopholes, improving background checks and banning bump stocks.

“As a gun guy, the number of rounds [the shooter] fired was un-****-believable to me,” he said. “I saw a video on YouTube from the police officer’s vest cam, and it sounded like an army was up there. I don’t think our forefathers ever thought the right to bear arms was that.”

 

Church blamed the NRA for blocking reform. 

“There are some things we can’t stop,” he said. “Like the disgruntled kid who takes his dad’s shotgun and walks into a high school.

But we could have stopped the guy in Vegas.”

Well according to the NRA,  Church is now one of THEM!  

This is what happens in our current state of non-nuanced \ binary politics.    You're either with THEM or against THEM.   (and liberal activist groups do the same thing).

 

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Just now, Vautrin said:

White guy shooting a big black guy. Not guilty. 

Do you have any data to support this as it relates to SYG?    

No I didn't think so.

 

 

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1 hour ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Do you have any data to support this as it relates to SYG?    

No I didn't think so.

 

 

It's always an advantage when you can answer your own question. I don't base

my opinion on data, but on experience of the way these things often turn out.

So if this guy went to trial I think he would be found not guilty, but I doubt he

will be charged anyway. 

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44 minutes ago, Vautrin said:

It's always an advantage when you can answer your own question. I don't base

my opinion on data, but on experience of the way these things often turn out.

So if this guy went to trial I think he would be found not guilty, but I doubt he

will be charged anyway. 

I know you don't base your opinion on data.  The fact you can't see that as folly,  is the issue.

E.g. if in these SYG cases whites were found NOT guilty more often than non-whites,  then assuming this white guy would be found not guilty would be logical.   

The same with if he will be charged or NOT.    If there was data that showed that a white person is less likely to be charged when shooting a non-white person and using SYD as their reasoning for doing so,  it would be logical to assume this guy will NOT be charged.

As for "but on experience of the way these things often turn out".   Uh,  isn't the way 'things often turn out' data??????

But I guess that when you say 'but on experience' you mean what you get from the MSM.    Funny but you sound just like a moronic Trump supporter that only gets his experience from Fox News!

 

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5 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

I know you don't base your opinion on data.  The fact you can't see that as folly,  is the issue.

E.g. if in these SYG cases whites were found NOT guilty more often than non-whites,  then assuming this white guy would be found not guilty would be logical.   

The same with if he will be charged or NOT.    If there was data that showed that a white person is less likely to be charged when shooting a non-white person and using SYD as their reasoning for doing so,  it would be logical to assume this guy will NOT be charged.

As for "but on experience of the way these things often turn out".   Uh,  isn't the way 'things often turn out' data??????

But I guess that when you say 'but on experience' you mean what you get from the MSM.    Funny but you sound just like a moronic Trump supporter that only gets his experience from Fox News!

 

I doubt many people do base their political opinions strictly on data. Not sure if there is

even complete and detailed data out there on this subject. The way things often turn out

isn't based on any detailed data, but on very limited data and that limited data makes

me think that this guy would not be found guilty if he is charged. Yeah, I get most of my

crime news from the msm. Not sure where else one would get it. The shooter seems to

be a self-appointed handicap parking inspector, which didn't turn out very well. And now

some Dems are asking Blowregard to look into this? They've got to be kidding. 

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13 hours ago, Vautrin said:

Yeah, I get most of my crime news from the msm.

My overall point was that one shouldn't assume some type of trend or pattern of occurrences based on the type of crime news the MSM covers. 

E.g. with the #METoo movement there is more reporting of sexual harassment.   But many of the incidences are 'old' (say over 5 years ago);     Based only on MSM reporting of such harassment one might assume that such harassment is on the rise.    BUT instead it could be that REPORTING of such harassment is on the rise but the overall number of incidences is decreasing (say compare to 20 years ago).

I do agree that capturing such data often isn't done (e.g. stats about arrest based on 'race' are only just being collected by cities\counties and reported to the Feds),  and even when collected getting access to such data is difficult.     

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3D-printed guns could soon pose challenge to regulators

 

It’s been five years since Cody Wilson fired the first 3D-printed gun.

This week, the self-described anarchist plans to release its blueprint to the world on the internet, allowing anyone with access to a 3D printer to create their own “ghost guns”

—firearms that are untraceable, unregulated, and unregistered.....

in June, the State Department and Texas-based Defense Distributed reached a settlement that would allow Wilson and his company to publish the gun blueprints, surprising many within the gun reform movement, since up until that point, the federal government had prevailed in court. According to The New York Times, the government also agreed to pay nearly Wilson’s $40,000 legal fees.

“It’s very odd for the government to have won all steps in the case so far and then do such an about face,” said Avery Gardiner, co-president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence........

“So now you’re talking about foreign terrorists being able to 3D print guns they might have difficulty getting otherwise,” Gardiner said. “If they’re made of plastic, they’re undetectable at airports.”

Some lawmakers say they are also concerned about the traceability and detectability of 3D-printed firearms. Because they’re produced at home, these guns wouldn’t have serial numbers like their mass-produced counterparts, making it difficult for the federal government to track them. The guns could also more easily avoid metal detection since they’re made of plastic....

“The danger that could happen can be enormous. To have crazy people have easy access, to have terrorists have easy access to this kind of website and allow them to make plastic AR 15s undetected — so-called “ghost guns” — justifies the imagination,”

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/3d-printed-guns-could-soon-pose-challenge-to-regulators

:angry:

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1 minute ago, mr6666 said:

3D-printed guns could soon pose challenge to regulators

 

It’s been five years since Cody Wilson fired the first 3D-printed gun.

This week, the self-described anarchist plans to release its blueprint to the world on the internet, allowing anyone with access to a 3D printer to create their own “ghost guns” 

—firearms that are untraceable, unregulated, and unregistered..... 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/3d-printed-guns-could-soon-pose-challenge-to-regulators

:angry:

Great! Twelve year olds with guns!

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6 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

My overall point was that one shouldn't assume some type of trend or pattern of occurrences based on the type of crime news the MSM covers. 

E.g. with the #METoo movement there is more reporting of sexual harassment.   But many of the incidences are 'old' (say over 5 years ago);     Based only on MSM reporting of such harassment one might assume that such harassment is on the rise.    BUT instead it could be that REPORTING of such harassment is on the rise but the overall number of incidences is decreasing (say compare to 20 years ago).

I do agree that capturing such data often isn't done (e.g. stats about arrest based on 'race' are only just being collected by cities\counties and reported to the Feds),  and even when collected getting access to such data is difficult.     

Cops often get lenient treatment from juries that civilians never get. I think most people would

understand that from msm sources. Folks who are more interested in these topics can always

look to numerous sources outside the msm. The thing I get from the #MeToo movement is that

this type of thing was been going on for ages, but only recently has it been exposed to such an

extent. Some victims coming forward leads to more victims willing to come forward. Whether

there is more sexual harassment now than there was twenty or thirty years ago is an unknown.

I would guess there is less, but it's still a significant problem.

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Company agrees to block 3D

downloadable guns in Pennsylvania-

 

 

Monday, July 30, 2018 06:44AM

HARRISBURG, Pa. --

State officials say they've successfully stopped a company that makes 3D downloadable guns from making them internet-accessible in Pennsylvania and from uploading new files.

Attorney Gen. Josh Shapiro says Texas-based Defense Distributed agreed to block Pennsylvania users after an emergency hearing Sunday in federal court in Philadelphia.

Shapiro says he, Gov. Tom Wolf and the Pennsylvania State Police sued the company before its formal rollout of a downloadable gun program Wednesday.

He says the company said in court it actually began distributing gun files Friday and by Sunday, 1,000 people had downloaded 3D plans for AR-15 semi-automatic assault rifles....

http://6abc.com/3d-downloadable-guns-blocked-in-pennsylvania/3847910/

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The NRA’s Convenient Hypocrisy On 3D-Printed Plastic Guns

The nation’s leading gun group offered an awkward response to controversy over the publishing of blueprints for 3D-printed firearms.
 
 

"Many anti-gun politicians and members of the media have wrongly claimed that 3-D printing technology will allow for the production and widespread proliferation of undetectable plastic firearms. Regardless of what a person may be able to publish on the Internet, undetectable plastic guns have been illegal for 30 years. Federal law passed in 1988, crafted with the NRA’s support, makes it unlawful to manufacture, import, sell, ship, deliver, possess, transfer, or receive an undetectable firearm."

If bans on so-called assault weapons, high-capacity ammunition magazines and bump stock accessories won’t stop criminals from getting such weaponry, as the NRA frequently says, why should we believe that the Undetectable Firearms Act is a sufficient safeguard against the proliferation of firearms that can skirt security measures?.......

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/nra-3d-printed-plastic-guns_us_5b61ce09e4b0b15aba9eeb48?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067

<_<

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