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LawrenceA

Call Me by Your Name

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9 hours ago, jaragon said:

In the story Oliver is not over thirty- yes I know Armie Hammer doesn't look 25.  Elio is not a child. He is sexually active with his  "girlfriend".  Oliver does not rape him.    My feeling is that people who are turn off by the movie do not like to see gay men having sex on the screen.  Gays are fine as long as they are sexless clowns. 

There is absolutely no rape. I'm reminded of the phrase in the review Swithin posted: "consensual joy". Yes, I understand that legally our society doesn't allow for consensual anything before a certain age, but human sexuality can't be governed that simply, no matter how much that is wished for by some. The book is fiction but structured as a memoir and begins with Elio searching his memory for the moment it began for him. It turned out there were a number of moments, beginning very early on, when the force of his own attraction to Oliver was apparent to him. He became obsessed with fantasies of being "possessed" by Oliver and his mindset was that of a lover parsing the words and actions of his beloved. To say that his thoughts and emotions had no validity because he was 17 is to misremember our own youths. Oliver ultimately confessed that he had an early awareness of attraction as well, but was generally a model of restraint. Even in the face of an overture on Elio's part as specific as a crotch grab, he held back on any follow-through. When it finally became obvious that their passion was equal and their wants were the same, the inevitable happened. To my mind, there is no definition of rape under which that could fall.

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9 hours ago, LawrenceA said:

I finally watched the movie this past week. I was disappointed at first, and my review in the "I Just Watched" thread reflected that. But I also added an addendum the next day, as the movie stuck in my mind, and the more I thought about it, the more moving I found it, especially that powerful final shot of Elio's face during the end credits. 

As for what you're discussing, I didn't find the movie disturbing or creepy or "rape-y". Yes, there is a double standard in that, if Elio had been Elia (meaning a 17-year-old girl) and Oliver was a 25-30 year old man, there would be more of an uproar, and perhaps even if Oliver had been an Olivia. But the way it's presented in this story, it's completely unpredatory. 

The movie's sex scenes are very matter-of-fact, graphic in implication, and much more sensual/erotic than those in Brokeback Mountain. And I say that as a straight man. I wasn't put off by it, and in fact there are Elio's sex scenes with Marzia, which are just as erotic, if clumsy and realistic. 

If Elio had been a girl or better yet is Oliver had been a woman people who are"disgusted" by the film would have no problem with it.  You are right about the sex scenes- and yes in "Brokeback Mountain" the  sex a was rougher- but Enis and Jack were cowboys - not intellectual Europeans ;).  I also believe if the film has been in Italian or French the movie would have won the Best Picture Oscar.  The Hollywood liberals are more accepting of a gay sensuality if its presented in a foreign context.  The film had a similar effect on me- I could not get it out of my head and had to see it again the next day.

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26 minutes ago, jaragon said:

If Elio had been a girl or better yet is Oliver had been a woman people who are"disgusted" by the film would have no problem with it.  You are right about the sex scenes- and yes in "Brokeback Mountain" the  sex a was rougher- but Enis and Jack were cowboys - not intellectual Europeans ;).  I also believe if the film has been in Italian or French the movie would have won the Best Picture Oscar.  The Hollywood liberals are more accepting of a gay sensuality if its presented in a foreign context.  The film had a similar effect on me- I could not get it out of my head and had to see it again the next day.

I think you're right about the foreign context blunting the effect of potentially controversial subject matter. Since the days of Brigitte Bardot and earlier (the Can-Can, etc.), Americans have been titillated and "shocked", but ultimately mesmerized by the goings-on in cultures more permissive than our own. In many ways we still have the remnants of a puritanical stick up our a**, an ironic legacy from forefathers who fled the very places which now eclipse us in acceptance and understanding.

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European film makers have always explore sex and sensuality in all it's forms-and like you said American films are more puritanical.  Louis Malle's " Murmur of the Heart" (1971) deals with a 15 year old boy who not only is take to a brothel by his older brothers but ends up having sex with his mother.

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14 hours ago, LawrenceA said:

As for what you're discussing, I didn't find the movie disturbing or creepy or "rape-y". Yes, there is a double standard in that, if Elio had been Elia (meaning a 17-year-old girl) and Oliver was a 25-30 year old man, there would be more of an uproar, and perhaps even if Oliver had been an Olivia. But the way it's presented in this story, it's completely unpredatory. 

Thanks,  this is the type of info I was looking for.    You confirmed that Elio was a minor and that Oliver was 25 - 30,  and that there is a double standard.    I guess the key here is 'the way it's presented'.    

One film with a minor girl is Wanda Nevada.    Now nothing sexual happens here between Brooke Shields and Peter Fonda,  but since Shields had been in a sexual role with Pretty Baby the vibe between the two isn't one of father \ daughter either.     This is what Wiki has: "Demerille (Fonda) near the edge of death, he professes his love for Wanda (Shields) and passes out.

I guess it all comes down to what type of love is in the air.       Also,  could a film be made today with a girl 17 and a man of 30 and come off as 'completely un-predatory' in the eyes of the #Metoo movement?  

 

 

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Elio and Oliver proceed very cautiously with their love - when it happens, it could not be more "natural".

Also, the scene in which Elio grabs Oliver's crotch and says, "Do I offend you?" is indicative of the care and caution that is now consuming Oliver.

As much as he wants it - he doesn't want it.

The whole movie is daring in concept and execution.

Finally, the age gap can not be seen as an impediment.

In the end, that age gap isn't important.

Only their love and need is important.

To love - to need - is - human.

Call+Me.jpg

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I didn’t realize when I went into the theater to see this movie I was going to have a life altering experience.  It’s been four weeks since that first time seeing the movie on the big screen.  I purchased it when it was released on Blu-ray a little over a week later, and I’ve now seen it 5 times!  I love movies, and there are a number of films I can watch again and again, but I have not seen a movie that has haunted me like this one in many years and I’m finding it difficult to explain exactly what it is about the film that has touched me so deeply.  My best friend, who saw it with me that first time, and he loved it and thought it was beautifully done, thinks I’ve become a bit obsessed with it, he just might be right!

Some of the statements I’ve read and heard from people, such as the film promoting the rape of a minor, etc, have already been discussed on this thread.  Those people haven’t seen the movie or read the book, and never will, due to their own homophobia.  They are going to have an issue with anything gay-related so it won’t matter in the least if the age of consent is 14 in Italy, and the characters are 17 and 24.  Its two guys, so it’s already wrong in their eyes.  I also agree, if this was a heterosexual relationship, those people would not be saying a word about the age difference.

As for me, I love this movie, it now ranks among my top 10 favorites of all-time.  I find everything about it beautiful beyond words, from the performances of Armie and Tim, along with everyone else in this perfectly cast film, the wonderful Oscar winning screenplay by James Ivory, the beautiful music, with the Sufjan Stevens songs that have also haunted me, the cinematography with the glorious Italian scenery, and every aspect of this magnificent piece of art.  Yeah, I guess it has become an obsession at this point!

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It's a worthy obsession!

A film as beautiful as this one will have a long, long life.

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4 hours ago, CountVictorGrazinsky said:

I didn’t realize when I went into the theater to see this movie I was going to have a life altering experience.  It’s been four weeks since that first time seeing the movie on the big screen.  I purchased it when it was released on Blu-ray a little over a week later, and I’ve now seen it 5 times!  I love movies, and there are a number of films I can watch again and again, but I have not seen a movie that has haunted me like this one in many years and I’m finding it difficult to explain exactly what it is about the film that has touched me so deeply.  My best friend, who saw it with me that first time, and he loved it and thought it was beautifully done, thinks I’ve become a bit obsessed with it, he just might be right!

Some of the statements I’ve read and heard from people, such as the film promoting the rape of a minor, etc, have already been discussed on this thread.  Those people haven’t seen the movie or read the book, and never will, due to their own homophobia.  They are going to have an issue with anything gay-related so it won’t matter in the least if the age of consent is 14 in Italy, and the characters are 17 and 24.  Its two guys, so it’s already wrong in their eyes.  I also agree, if this was a heterosexual relationship, those people would not be saying a word about the age difference.

As for me, I love this movie, it now ranks among my top 10 favorites of all-time.  I find everything about it beautiful beyond words, from the performances of Armie and Tim, along with everyone else in this perfectly cast film, the wonderful Oscar winning screenplay by James Ivory, the beautiful music, with the Sufjan Stevens songs that have also haunted me, the cinematography with the glorious Italian scenery, and every aspect of this magnificent piece of art.  Yeah, I guess it has become an obsession at this point!

3-(118).gif

Like you I could not get the movie out of my head and actually had to see it again the next day.

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Congratulations to my guy, Armie Hammer, on winning the Variety One to Acclaim Award, at the Austin Film Society's 18th Annual Texas Film Awards!  I felt Armie's performance deserved an Oscar nomination, so I'm thrilled he's getting some well deserved recognition here in my home state.

Timothee Chalamet was in Austin, Texas, to present the award to Armie!

Armie lived here in my hometown, Dallas, Texas, for a while a few years ago and he, and his wife Elizabeth, own a bakery here in Dallas, with a second location in San Antonio.  What a treat it would be to find Armie behind the counter at the bakery! :D

https://www.sacurrent.com/sanantonio/sa-connected-armie-hammer-wins-at-texas-film-awards/Content?oid=9968273

And, by the way, I want to wish all of you a Happy Easter, hope everyone has a wonderful holiday.  I don't get around here as often as I'd like to sometimes, but I just wanted to say how much I enjoy and appreciate reading everyone's posts.  Thanks.

texas%20film%20awards-10.jpg

 

Armie-Hammer-Timothee-Chalamet-Texas-Fil

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Yes, I agree, Armie Hammer deserved Oscar recognition- either as a nominee or a winner!

He actually played a very complicated character - a bisexual man at war with himself.

04-armie-hammer.jpg

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3 hours ago, rayban said:

Yes, I agree, Armie Hammer deserved Oscar recognition- either as a nominee or a winner!

He actually played a very complicated character - a bisexual man at war with himself.

04-armie-hammer.jpg

Yes, Ray, I completely agree, Oliver is complicated, he appears to be overly confident, everything all together, he keeps saying, "I know myself", but it's all a facade.  The scene where his emotions are completely raw and open is the early morning scene where he is sitting on the bed next to Elio, who is asleep and dreaming of the two of them, so Elio, unfortunately doesn't witness this moment. 

The look of complete despair on Olivier's face is heartbreaking and Armie beautifully conveyed every emotion that Olvier is going through in that lingering closeup, and it appears he is going to breakdown until the startling sound of the train whistle, when Oliver then looks back over his right shoulder.  That is the shot in the film that tears me apart every time I see it, and I leap out of my skin each time I hear the train whistle, even though I now know that it's coming. 

I believe the closest that Elio ever gets to see of Olivier in this raw state of mind is when Oliver looks back at him from the train window, but that darn curtain, that I always want to tear down, is in the way. 

Oliver will definitely have the more difficult road to travel.  Elio, although heartbroken, will ultimately be stronger with the love and support of his family, which, unfortunately, Olivier won't have.  

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a68d21c80837d4e6b74c2095597eafd6.jpg

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6 hours ago, rayban said:

Yes, I agree, Armie Hammer deserved Oscar recognition- either as a nominee or a winner!

He actually played a very complicated character - a bisexual man at war with himself.

04-armie-hammer.jpg

He deserved a nomination- the sight of him and Gal Gador presenting at the Oscars was a classic Hollywood glamour for the 21st century

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Armie Hammer looked sensational at the Oscars in that red velvet suit -

cfaa0449ff07b1151d65f012bce9d6c5.jpg

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4 hours ago, rayban said:

Armie Hammer looked sensational at the Oscars in that red velvet suit -

cfaa0449ff07b1151d65f012bce9d6c5.jpg

Thanks, Rayban, I suddenly have a craving for a big slice of Red Velvet Cake! ;)

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14 minutes ago, CountVictorGrazinsky said:

Thanks, Rayban, I suddenly have a craving for a big slice of Red Velvet Cake! ;)

Who could blame you?

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