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NipkowDisc

the honeymoon killers

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won't watch it. just too unpleasant for me when them two murder the old ladies. and that poor little child and her mother at the end. this is one of the most disturbing films I ever saw. I can sit through In Cold Blood but not this.

 

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5 minutes ago, NipkowDisc said:

won't watch it. just too unpleasant for me when them two murder the old ladies. and that poor little child and her mother at the end. this is one of the most disturbing films I ever saw. I can sit through In Cold Blood but not this.

 

But you apparently did, since you're discussing it in detail.

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6 minutes ago, LawrenceA said:

But you apparently did, since you're discussing it in detail.

who can forget the scene of a naked tony lo bianco walking into the room to know intimacy with shirley stoler with the body of the strangled old lady on the floor.

that's a grosser outer. no thanks.

I think the murder reenactments are just too realistic and heart-wrenching for alotta people.

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2 minutes ago, NipkowDisc said:

yeah, I watched it a few times on pay cable back in the 1970s.

And so I take it THIS B&W movie wouldn't be one we'll soon see you posting the hope for it to be colorized for your added enjoyment, eh Nip?!

;)

 

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I mean if you wanna see an old lady whacked on the skull with a hammer by a pervert and then finished off by having a hippo like shirley stoler finish her off by strangling her with an electrical cord, this is your film.

these two make tommy udo seem refined.

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It's a Neo Noir, and if you get a chance check out Shirley Stoler in Seven Beauties (1975) where she plays a Nazi Concentration Camp Commandant. 

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3 hours ago, cigarjoe said:

It's a Neo Noir, and if you get a chance check out Shirley Stoler in Seven Beauties (1975) where she plays a Nazi Concentration Camp Commandant. 

yeah, that look on giancarlo gianinni's face trying to nibble on one of shirley's bazongas is sad.

she sure weren't no dyanne thorne.:lol:

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On 1/6/2018 at 2:01 PM, NipkowDisc said:

I mean if you wanna see an old lady whacked on the skull with a hammer by a pervert and then finished off by having a hippo like shirley stoler finish her off by strangling her with an electrical cord, this is your film.

Well, good thing you didn't watch it, then.  <_<

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The actual Martha Beck was a morbidly obese woman - she had been so her whole life - so much so that she had trouble getting a job as a nurse, her field of training. She was promiscuous - maybe that was the only way she could get any male attention. However, she wound up pregnant twice from casual affairs, and so distraught was one of the fathers at the thought of marrying Martha that he attempted suicide. The father of the second child stayed married to her only long enough to establish the child's legitimacy, and then left skid marks on his way out of town.

Ray Fernandez was born in Hawaii of Spanish descent, married, had four children, served in WWII, and led an unremarkable life until the steel hatch of a ship landed on his head and damaged his frontal lobe. At this point, people who knew him say he changed completely - no wonder. He developed a complete lack of impulse control, abandoned his family, and embarked upon a career of romancing and fleecing lonely women. There is even some evidence that he killed at least one of his marks prior to ever meeting Martha. That's the true story of both of our main characters.

So initially planning to fleece Martha, Ray and Martha instead go on the road and fleece other women, with Martha abandoning her two children in the process.

The actual end to their crime spree came when the family of one of the victims became suspicious and called the police. Martha killed the child - as the movie showed - but seemed to be unaffected by her action and she and Ray were caught returning from the movies after the double murder, no contrite Martha being involved in their actual apprehension.

Why I am going to great lengths to tell the actual story? Because the actual truth is not only mitigating on Ray's behalf, but somewhat damning on Martha's. You can tell that the film wants to paint Martha as one of Ray's victims too, and she was to the point that always being obese - and we know how kind children are to other fat children - and being rejected so as an adult, does something to people sometimes for their whole lives. Thus she does not abandon her own children -there aren't any - nor is she able to recover from killing a child in the film. To tell Ray's true story is to humanize this guy since the brain damage he suffered is probably almost completely responsible for his actions and was not medically understood when these crimes happened in the 1940's.

On the technical side, Criterion really cleaned up on the sound on this one. As recently the 1990s the sound was so bad it was almost impossible to sit through the film.

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On 1/6/2018 at 1:45 PM, NipkowDisc said:

won't watch it. just too unpleasant for me when them two murder the old ladies. and that poor little child and her mother at the end. this is one of the most disturbing films I ever saw. I can sit through In Cold Blood but not this.

 

You know, films about what was rare in the 40s - the serial killer with nothing against his victims -  don't bother me. I guess because I know it was so rare back then. After reading about the Wichita Massacre of 2000, I guess no classic era film about serial killers will ever bother me again. If you don't know what that is and this film bothers you, read about that and you'll never feel safe again. I think it was one of the last cases Antonin Scalia heard and ruled on. The Kansas Supreme court always finds some reason to overturn every death penalty that technically has nothing to do with their objection to the death penalty.  It went to the Supreme Court, and after Scalia enumerated the killers' crimes, it seemed that even the defense attorneys were embarrassed to be there. And no I'm not a big Scalia fan, but in this case he was right. And the killers still sit on death row. Maybe they'll never be executed, but at least nobody was ever paroled from death row, and that's OK by me.

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I watched it once and found it terribly boring.

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I love all the permutations of this story in film (and there are a BUNCH).

the 1950's version is funny in certain scenes.

The Jared Leto one is OK....the 'cop' characters kind of steal it.

bEST one of all is the Mexican version (DEEP CRIMSON, 1996)

the Mexican cops don't pussyfoot around with "attorneys" and "trials"---they get it all over quickly.

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I have a comment on this one over at IMDb.

It's titled "Cheap, Stark Exercise in Ugliness".

About half of the readers there appreciate my take - last time I looked I had 11 "useful" votes out of 21 total.

I'm with you, Nip. I watch a lot of mean stuff, but this is one I find particularly unpleasant to watch.

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On 1/6/2018 at 1:45 PM, NipkowDisc said:

won't watch it. just too unpleasant for me when them two murder the old ladies. and that poor little child and her mother at the end. this is one of the most disturbing films I ever saw. I can sit through In Cold Blood but not this.

 

I saw it when it first came out at some small theater in Manhattan. Shirley Stoler is incredible as is the music by Mahler. It may be brutal but it is only imitating real life.

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21 hours ago, darkblue said:

I have a comment on this one over at IMDb.

It's titled "Cheap, Stark Exercise in Ugliness".

 

6 hours ago, NipkowDisc said:

I was reading the IMDb reviews and I did read yours.

Ah, what the heck - here's what I said for anyone who doesn't want to go over there.

A two-bit Latin lothario who bilks spinsters and single moms of their (generally modest) savings meets a fat, frumpy sociopath of a nurse and inexplicably becomes a "couple" with her. This little lovely never seems to speak a word to anyone that isn't either an undisguised groan of contempt and boredom or a knife-edged utterance of argumentative ball-breaking. As portrayed by Shirley Stoler, Martha Beck is the embodiment of the narcissistic, self-pitying, rage-aholic "lover" from hell. There is never a soft word or a soft moment from her. As this is based on a true-life couple it feels like there is something large missing from the telling of the story. Why Fernandez wants to be with Beck never feels satisfactorily explored. It's a complete mystery, yet it happened. Others have posted here that the story is ultimately a 'love story', but I couldn't feel it in the performances. With Bonnie and Clyde it was very well presented as such, even in the midst of rampant violence. Not so here. Beck and Fernandez just seem flat and emotionless (other than Beck's petulance) 

Raymond Fernandez is just a con-man, moving from victim to victim and is relatively gentle in his crimes until Martha Beck comes into his life. Then it almost seems like the evil within her sucks from him any vestige of inner decency and he is soon a full partner in her cold, murderous inclinations. Comparisons to 'Psycho' and 'In Cold Blood' have been alluded to by reviewers here, but this has none of the artfulness of those superb canvases, nor are there any directorial postulations as to the personalities of these killers - no attempt at understanding what "makes them tick" as in those other films 

That the violence is presented in chillingly matter-of-fact fashion and the narrative style is so plain, plain, stark and plain seems to have led many to regard this film highly. I wonder if that would be the case if it had been filmed in exactly the same way but in colour? Sometimes black and white can be the "making point" as to whether a film is regarded as cult-worthy. As to Truffault's appraisal of it, let's not forget he's French - saying it's his favorite American film could just as easily have been a snide comment about American cinema as a genuine compliment of the film. Doesn't matter anyway; as a Frenchman he probably thinks Jerry Lewis movies are high art 

Anyway, it sure is an ugly little film. Perhaps the time is ripe, though, for a re-make - a more incisive exploration of the story. Not that I'd want to see it, mind you. I still feel plenty scuzzy from having watched this version

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Love this movie! Not because people get murdered in it which of course is odious, but for its very unique qualities that are so different from the usual Tinseltown crime drama. I remember seeing interviews with Truman Capote talking about Martha Beck being his neighbor when he was a kid. They had a friendship as I recall. I'm surprised he did not write a book about that in terms of his new slant on non-fictional fiction style. I think the film is well done for the very fact that it presents the murders realistically which is painful to watch, as maybe it should be. Better than a stylized and low key typical Hollywood killing scenario where you can forget who just got offed in a few seconds. Uniquely filmed and with fascinating psychological touches about the aberrant relationship of Ray and Martha. I must say Shirley Stoler was a much more attractive version of the real Martha though.

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9 minutes ago, CaveGirl said:

Love this movie! Not because people get murdered in it which of course is odious, but for its very unique qualities that are so different from the usual Tinseltown crime drama. I remember seeing interviews with Truman Capote talking about Martha Beck being his neighbor when he was a kid. They had a friendship as I recall. I'm surprised he did not write a book about that in terms of his new slant on non-fictional fiction style. I think the film is well done for the very fact that it presents the murders realistically which is painful to watch, as maybe it should be. Better than a stylized and low key typical Hollywood killing scenario where you can forget who just got offed in a few seconds. Uniquely filmed and with fascinating psychological touches about the aberrant relationship of Ray and Martha. I must say Shirley Stoler was a much more attractive version of the real Martha though.

Yeah, well, the actors they get playing these kind'a lowlifes usually are ya know, CG.

(...in fact, as somebody brought up here earlier with the mention of Bonnie and Clyde, if you've ever seen a photo of THAT little gruesome-twosome, neither of 'em are exactly doubles of Warren Beatty and Faye Dunaway, ya know) ;)

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Bonnie was not bad looking but Clyde was a bit of a wimp. Probably because he had that phallic issue which he assuaged by carrying a pistol. Speaking of the "Gruesome Twosome" by Hershell Gordon Lewis, that's a great movie that I know would be one of your faves, Dargo.

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