jakeem

Wagner now a "person of interest" in Natalie Wood's death

76 posts in this topic

There was always plenty of boozing in these people's lives. According to Edd Byrnes (Kookie on 77 Sunset Strip),  auto/bio, he and Wagner were close pals. Maybe somebody ought to ask him what he thinks happened.

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2 hours ago, CaveGirl said:

Dourgo, there are dour consequences for those who do not accept the non-superfluous "u" in words, but I digress.

And by the way, your nautical know-how has nothing to do with homicide investigations.

The operative part of "nautical' for you, would end with the letters "nauti". I think you should work first on solving the murder of director, William Desmond Taylor by Mary Miles Minter, and then take up this quest. Remember, the last time you judged R.J. you thought he had offed a mermaid while in the film "Beneath the 12-Mile Reef" with your favorite actor, Gilbert Roland.

Cease and desist or face ignominy instead of the usual unctuous succour you engender amongst your mody amourous fans here.

CaveGirl,  FYI:  it was Mary Miles Minter's mother who knocked off William Desmond Taylor.

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19 hours ago, Bethluvsfilms said:

 

I think if there actually was strong enough evidence against Wagner or Walken, they'd have been charged by now.

Wagner may very well be sincere in his grief/love for Natalie. It really could have been just an accident, no matter how suspicious it might look by any of our standards. 

Wagner may be considered 'a person of interest' by the authorities but he's still innocent until proven guilty in a court of law even if he is eventually arrested.

Again I doubt very much if we will ever get to the truth to what happened to Natalie that night.

 

Maybe, but you never know what a death bed confession might reveal (not that it has to come to that). Also, considering how #metoo is revealing years of sexual abuse/violence, and doing away years of legal cover-ups, it might be possible. All anyone has to do is plant reasonable doubt. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, hepclassic said:

Maybe, but you never know what a death bed confession might reveal (not that it has to come to that). Also, considering how #metoo is revealing years of sexual abuse/violence, and doing away years of legal cover-ups, it might be possible. All anyone has to do is plant reasonable doubt. 

 

 

Uh,  the standard for a DA to file charges is if they believe there is evidence BEYOND a reasonable doubt.

But sadly the Metoo movement as well as other activist groups don't agree with this standard.   

The ACLU still does which is why they are coming to the defense of those being sanctioned (e.g. losing their job,  because kicked out of college),  based only on an un-provable accusation.  . 

 

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2 hours ago, ChristineHoard said:

CaveGirl,  FYI:  it was Mary Miles Minter's mother who knocked off William Desmond Taylor.

Yeah, Christine I also read that book when it came out and boy, it was a good read with all the info on people like Mabel Normand's cocaine habits and how Mary's mother was jealous of her affair with WDT. But Dargo only reads books about the Marx Brothers, so I thought it would all be new to him. He is waiting for the expose called "Mommy Minnie, Dearest" that was supposedly taken from excerpts from Groucho's diary. Thanks!

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On 2/9/2018 at 2:10 PM, Janet0312 said:

There was always plenty of boozing in these people's lives. According to Edd Byrnes (Kookie on 77 Sunset Strip),  auto/bio, he and Wagner were close pals. Maybe somebody ought to ask him what he thinks happened.

 

 

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Just now, CaveGirl said:

After I wrote my post here concerning what I remembered from past information, I saw the hour long show on tv over the weekend about the case. There was much more revealed about the boat captain named Dennis, saying he was told by Wagner exactly how their stories should all coincide, about the details of her being missing. He says Wagner got him and Walken to basically confirm the Wagner details, but the Dennis now says he heard Wood and Wagner in a vituperative battle with loud voices that suddenly ended in silence. Hence he believes Wagner would have had to have been witness to her falling off the boat. That is probably the reason for the reopening of the case. They also said there were witnesses on other boats who backed up his story about a tremendously loud argument ending abruptly. These are details that were new to me, even after having read most versions of what happened that night in publications like "Vanity Fair" et cetera. I think this new version was on something like "48 Hours" or the like, possibly last Friday or Saturday night. Walken has always seemed noticeably silent on this whole debacle bizarrely. There were also discrepancies from this Dennis about Wagner breaking a wine bottle over Walken's interference in Natalie's career in her presence, but Wagner said it happened after she went to bed. Who knows???

 

 

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5 hours ago, hepclassic said:

Maybe, but you never know what a death bed confession might reveal (not that it has to come to that). Also, considering how #metoo is revealing years of sexual abuse/violence, and doing away years of legal cover-ups, it might be possible. All anyone has to do is plant reasonable doubt. 

 

 

While I do think accusations of sexual assault and harassment should be taken seriously, I still believe that the old 'innocent until proven guilty' standard needs to be applied. There should be justice for murder victims, rape victims and harassment victims, however we need to be careful not to needlessly slander an innocent individual's name and reputation without a proper investigation.

The law isn't infallible and frankly I don't think #metoo is too interested in waiting for an investigation to determine the truth into the accuser's claims before screaming for the crucification of the accused.

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7 hours ago, Bethluvsfilms said:

While I do think accusations of sexual assault and harassment should be taken seriously, I still believe that the old 'innocent until proven guilty' standard needs to be applied. There should be justice for murder victims, rape victims and harassment victims, however we need to be careful not to needlessly slander an innocent individual's name and reputation without a proper investigation.

The law isn't infallible and frankly I don't think #metoo is too interested in waiting for an investigation to determine the truth into the accuser's claims before screaming for the crucification of the accused.

Every case is an individual situation with an individual claiming to have been abused. I would not want to generalize about rape, or any kind of sexual and psychological abuse  reported by an individual.

I would not want to damage any individual's honest plea for justice by painting all of these accusations as lies.

Sometimes we have to be honest with ourselves in terms of reality and understand that when a myriad of accusations are made over a period of a number of years, often by individuals who have never even met each other, then there is some truth in it and it's just necessary for it to be documented in the courts if the perpetrator is ever to be punished by the society. Examples of this would be Bill Cosby, Roy Moore, trump and Dr. Nassar.

Also you have to realize the Norms of the society and the level to which some people are able to go to hide their alleged crimes because of the power they possess in this Society.  Then we would include examples like Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, Peter Martins and James Levine.

In a society like ours with double and triple standards, it's complicated sometimes to get to the root of Truth, but those who do not possess the best standards of power in any society are going to be doubted, attacked, and marginalized to whatever degree the powers-that-be can get away with it.

As we used to say, let it all hang out and we'll get to the bottom of it one way or another.

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16 hours ago, NipkowDisc said:

maybe it was Walken. doan forget, he pushed michelle pfeiffer out a high-rise window in batman returns.

maybe reliving a fond moment huh? doesn't say a helluva lot for tim burton either.

I mean why would walken playing max schreck wanna do a scene like that given all the controversy at the time? was he saying to moviegoing audiences 'ha ha we hollywood celebrities out here can do whatever the **** we want even heinous acts of murder. we doan obey the normal laws of civilization like you peasants hafta'.

:huh:

I think you have a very "unique" interpretation of that Batman scene. :unsure: 

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11 hours ago, Princess of Tap said:

Every case is an individual situation with an individual claiming to have been abused. I would not want to generalize about rape, or any kind of sexual and psychological abuse  reported by an individual.

I would not want to damage any individual's honest plea for justice by painting all of these accusations as lies.

Sometimes we have to be honest with ourselves in terms of reality and understand that when a myriad of accusations are made over a period of a number of years, often by individuals who have never even met each other, then there is some truth in it and it's just necessary for it to be documented in the courts if the perpetrator is ever to be punished by the society. Examples of this would be Bill Cosby, Roy Moore, trump and Dr. Nassar.

Also you have to realize the Norms of the society and the level to which some people are able to go to hide their alleged crimes because of the power they possess in this Society.  Then we would include examples like Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, Peter Martins and James Levine.

In a society like ours with double and triple standards, it's complicated sometimes to get to the root of Truth, but those who do not possess the best standards of power in any society are going to be doubted, attacked, and marginalized to whatever degree the powers-that-be can get away with it.

As we used to say, let it all hang out and we'll get to the bottom of it one way or another.

It is a bogus assumption that if one doesn't agree someone is guilty it means they must ALSO believe the alleged victim is lying.   It is this assumption that shows a flawed understanding of the US system of justice.

An accusation is evidence.    But typically ONLY an accusation,  especially one made years after the 'event' is NOT enough to meet the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' standard. 

Those that claim to have  an understanding of the historical injustice towards minorities should understand why.   E.g.  blacks were often falsely arrested,  charged and sentenced based only on an accusation by a white person.   This occurred to gays and others NOT in the majority.

As for 'get to the bottom of it one way or the another':    Often there is no way to determine what actually occurred (the truth).     This point is the basic reason behind the 'beyond reasonable doubt' standard.   Note that in countries that don't have this standard (Iran,  Russia),   the 'state' is able to convict and sentence those they find objectionable (mostly for political reasons).     

No one wishes for an actual criminal to go free and the 'beyond reasonable doubt' standard clearly leans in the direction of allowing more to go free then not.   But I prefer this to a justice system like that in Russia that leans in the direction of sentencing the innocent to ensure the guilty are punished.      

 

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2 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

It is a bogus assumption that if one doesn't agree someone is guilty it means they must ALSO believe the alleged victim is lying.   It is this assumption that shows a flawed understanding of the US system of justice.

An accusation is evidence.    But typically ONLY an accusation,  especially one made years after the 'event' is NOT enough to meet the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' standard. 

Those that claim to have  an understanding of the historical injustice towards minorities should understand why.   E.g.  blacks were often falsely arrested,  charged and sentenced based only on an accusation by a white person.   This occurred to gays and other NOT in the majority.

As for 'get to the bottom of it one way or the another':    Often there is no way to determine what actually occurred (the truth).     This point is the basic reason behind the 'beyond reasonable doubt' standard.   Note that in countries that don't have this standard (Iran,  Russia),   the 'state' is able to convict and sentence those they find objectionable (mostly for political reasons).     

No one wishes a actual criminal to go free and the 'beyond reasonable doubt' standard clearly leans in the direction of allowing more to go free then not.   But I prefer this to a justice system like that in Russia that leans in the direction of sentencing the innocent to ensure the guilty are punished.      

 

Hear hear! 

I didn't intend to imply that alleged victims shouldn't be believed, only that the case against the accused should be proven 'beyond a reasonable doubt' as you said. I am aware though that is not always possible. 

What's that old saying....better to let 10 guilty men go free than let one innocent person go to jail, although unfortunately there have been many cases of innocent people who have spent years, even decades in prison for crimes they didn't commit.  Or even worse, even executed for it.

There is no doubt still loads of cases of the wrongly convicted that will probably never come to the surface, especially cases where the accused, accuser and witnesses have all passed away.

That's why I prefer the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' system that we have in the courts rather than the 'guilty until proven innocent' mindset that seems to be the fad in social media these days.

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On 2/9/2018 at 4:27 PM, jamesjazzguitar said:

Uh,  the standard for a DA to file charges is if they believe there is evidence BEYOND a reasonable doubt.

But sadly the Metoo movement as well as other activist groups don't agree with this standard.   

The ACLU still does which is why they are coming to the defense of those being sanctioned (e.g. losing their job,  because kicked out of college),  based only on an un-provable accusation.  . 

 

I think when someone says "Donald Trump raped me" that that isn't an un-provable accusation. 

Of course, Robert Wagner isn't as repulsive, he just will probably get a "person of interest" distinction because the justice system in this country is run by and enables rich, old, cisgender, heterosexual, white men. 

Accountability is beginning to have ground finally in this country, and it doesn't matter how many cobwebs you have to untangle to see that what's been buried still has resonance of universal experiences for those marginalized by oppression and oppressors. 

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2 hours ago, hepclassic said:

I think when someone says "Donald Trump raped me" that that isn't an un-provable accusation. 

Of course, Robert Wagner isn't as repulsive, he just will probably get a "person of interest" distinction because the justice system in this country is run by and enables rich, old, cisgender, heterosexual, white men. 

Accountability is beginning to have ground finally in this country, and it doesn't matter how many cobwebs you have to untangle to see that what's been buried still has resonance of universal experiences for those marginalized by oppression and oppressors. 

I am no Donald Trump fan by any means, but saying the accusations against him are not unprovable, that line of thinking has absolutely no room in our justice system.

Does it matter how many lives end up getting destroyed without a proper investigation? Guilty until proven innocent cannot and should not be the way to run the legal system. 

There are a lot of victims of sexual abuse, rape and sexual harassment, but it's naïve to believe that there aren't some cases which have turned out to be mere exaggeration or out and out lies. 

False accusations can and indeed do a lot of harm to true victims of crime. Real victims are not taken seriously because of others who merely have an axe to grind and cry out rape or harassment out of spite.

We don't have a perfect legal system. Yes there are a lot of creeps who have and will continue to get away with any and every crime in the book. But that doesn't mean we should persecute everyone accused of a crime without hearing all the facts first.

Of course accusations should always be taken seriously....but there are two sides to every story and both should be heard and taken into consideration before we get out the pitchfork.

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1 hour ago, Bethluvsfilms said:

I am no Donald Trump fan by any means, but saying the accusations against him are not unprovable, that line of thinking has absolutely no room in our justice system.

Does it matter how many lives end up getting destroyed without a proper investigation? Guilty until proven innocent cannot and should not be the way to run the legal system. 

There are a lot of victims of sexual abuse, rape and sexual harassment, but it's naïve to believe that there aren't some cases which have turned out to be mere exaggeration or out and out lies. 

False accusations can and indeed do a lot of harm to true victims of crime. Real victims are not taken seriously because of others who merely have an axe to grind and cry out rape or harassment out of spite.

We don't have a perfect legal system. Yes there are a lot of creeps who have and will continue to get away with any and every crime in the book. But that doesn't mean we should persecute everyone accused of a crime without hearing all the facts first.

Of course accusations should always be taken seriously....but there are two sides to every story and both should be heard and taken into consideration before we get out the pitchfork.

It appears some people believe that repulsive individuals (as well as rich white men) are not entitled to Constitutional rights.    Like I said in my prior post this type of thinking use to be applied by those in power to sanction gays,  blacks and other minorities the establishment believed were repulsive.      

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Don't know if anyone's paying attention but Wagner is reaching the age where he might think Natalie is still alive.

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2 hours ago, hamradio said:

Don't know if anyone's paying attention but Wagner is reaching the age where he might think Natalie is still alive.

LOL

I dunno, ham. As I recall, R.J. was one of the people who subbed for Bob Osborne while the latter took his final leave of absence just a couple years ago, and he still seemed pretty with-it to me at the time, anyway.

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What was up with Ben talking politics and Grapes of Wrath last night? I hope no one fell for his fake intro.

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2 hours ago, MovieMadness said:

What was up with Ben talking politics and Grapes of Wrath last night? I hope no one fell for his fake intro.

There is another thread where this is being discussed.   I even mentioned you.   Not by name of course but as a general comment about people that I knew would have something to say about that Ben intro (and you were the one I was thinking of).  

Yea,  you're that transparent.   :lol:

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& "Brainstorm" is still a good movie (***-out of 4)  helmed by Douglas Trumbull who also designed some of the rides at Universal & Disney parks

 

Louise Fletcher was robbed of another Oscar nod as well

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& the two also did a film together 1960's "All the Fine Young Cannibals' but it's mediocre at best (**)

Remember the 1980's music group of same name?

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On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 4:51 PM, MovieMadness said:

What was up with Ben talking politics and Grapes of Wrath last night? I hope no one fell for his fake intro.

& Wagner's all-time idol has always been *"The Great: Spencer Tracy" (l900-l967)

*Tracy kinda' took the then young actor under his wing during filming of both 1954's strong "Broken Lance" (Fox) (***1/2) & 1956's underrated "The Mountain" (**/2) it's main debit was casting him as his brother as opposed to him being his son or something. *Tracy looked more like his grandfather in the well made epic

& even had him at his wedding to her in '57

& when Wagner was a TCM "GP" he picked the tremendous 1955 drama "Bad Day at Black Rock"(M-G-M) as one of his 4 favorites

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On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 4:13 PM, hepclassic said:

Maybe, but you never know what a death bed confession might reveal (not that it has to come to that). Also, considering how #metoo is revealing years of sexual abuse/violence, and doing away years of legal cover-ups, it might be possible. All anyone has to do is plant reasonable doubt. 

 

 

Reportedly *Walken was arguing & loudly with him & actually her as well, all 3 were heard yelling & he's always said he return to his room & that was that for *Walken.

For yrs after everytime I saw the 1978 *Oscar winner, I immediately associated him with her

Dennis Davern has always been an opportunist in this strange case, everytime he can make some $$$ he pops up again

Reportedly he & Natalie spent the night on shore in a hotel the previous night, though it's always said to be innocent & were not involved with each other

I loath her sis Lana Wood-(little Debbie in "The Searchers") was right in telling all about what a scum Davern is

(p.S. but what in the...does this have to do with the "Me Too Movement?"  RIDICULOUS)

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On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 5:04 PM, CaveGirl said:

 

But Davern has always been a genuine weasel  even writing a book about the incident

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