hlywdkjk

The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread

12,959 posts in this topic

A SPOILER'S FACE

 

 

I just watched the Ingrid version of *A Woman's Face*. It was very very different I thought, but it did bring back to me the depth of the story which I liked so much in the first place. I really REALLY liked (in both films) the way the waterfall was a symbol of her inner turmoil. I also really enjoyed how her new face changes her inner landscape. I think that both movies capture something kind of intangible...when she had an ugly face, she saw, or thought she saw ugly feelings in those around her. Once that was gone, she started to see the loving instead, and that acted on her in a totally different way than anything ever had. She herself started to be kind, to love herself and others.

 

When she responded (in the MGM movie) to Torsten's love of her, it was something new and made her feel good. THAT was what moved her in the film. Later when she saw others who loved far more than Torsten, she was changed and began to see him for what he was. In the Swedish movie, there are very few closeups, which made the moment when the little boy hugged and kissed her quite momentous - there was a huge gorgeous closeup of Ingrid, shocked,by the show of love. She quickly reached up to her face as if to wipe it off, or keep it from her, but it burned her, it got inside her.... into her soul...and then she gave in to emotion. I don't remember anything as striking in the MGM film, but I haven't seen it for a while.

 

I liked the twistedness of the MGM story much MUCH more than the Swedish one. Combining the two sets of characters the way they did really put the story on a little bit higher plane, a more complex level for me. However, I liked the little boy in the Swedish film WAAAAAY more, and also the grandfather and Emma were charming. I liked Osa Massen far more than the blackmailed woman in the Swedish film, because she added some more of that twistedness to her character, not good, not bad. I did like the Swedish blackmailed woman, just not as much.Things and people were a lot more black and white in the Swedish film - for instance, Ingrid could truly hate and despise Torsten - which the combining of characters really jumbled up (to my delight) in the American film.

 

And of course, Veidt was brilliant, none of the characters or actors even touched the hem of his silk smoking jacket. :D I also did NOT like Ingrid's makeup as much as Joan's... and I didn't quite feel Ingrid was as sensitive to her deformity as Joan was. That doesn't mean she didn't do an excellent job.

 

I felt that the straightforward telling of the story really hurt the Swedish version, though the film was still surprisingly good. They jumped right in and let everything come out right at the start. It surprised me, and though it worked, I LOVE the way the MGM writers twisted up the beginning, making it far more of a mystery at first...you aren't quite sure of what's going on. They let little pieces of the pie come together slowly. I I felt the Swedes should have ended it a little sooner as well, that draggy ending with her seeing the 'angel' in the hospital and then going to the doctor could have been told in 2 minimal scenes, instead of taking 15 minutes.

 

I liked the Swedish version of the sleigh scene, taking place at night. I may not be remembering the American version, but didn't it take place in the daylight? I would have chosen night time again for the remake.

 

Both films copped out on the ending. Perhaps there was no perfect resolution for such a striking dilemma. At least, not at that time. I felt the Swedish film caught a little bit of a class situation at the end - there was NO WAY she could go with Harald, they made it perfectly clear. At least in the American version, she was allowed to move on and have the hope of a happy life, because she redeemed herself with her good acts.... paid for her sins. I don't know how one would resolve this story - perhaps having her bow out by her own choice, as she did in the Swedish version, but more quickly? to just disappear, a la *I Am a Fugitive From a Chain Gang*.... but I feel that's too harsh for her character to bear. It doesn't feel quite right either.

 

Most of all, I really felt Joan captured something deep and tormented in the character. I loved how she hid herself. I really felt her pain, even when she was being cruel at the beginning. She really tortured HERSELF. Both were excellent, and Ingrid's character got to go a little deeper into a terribly harsh background. But I find Crawford deeply fascinating in the American film. I truly like her better. I did like how Ingrid's character changed very very slowly, but maybe they both did, I can't remember quite as well as I would like to. Changing Torsten to a love interest helped heighten the psychology and the fight within. I never thought I'd say I liked Joan better than Ingrid in all my life, but I felt Joan brought a more bitter, natural edge, with complete sympathetic understanding of this woman's mind and heart, even at her worst. She totally captured the character.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Mar 4, 2014 3:54 PM

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Mar 4, 2014 3:57 PM

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Buttertea - I just realized that I never replied you your post earlier on!

 

*Wendy, I would have answered you when you replied to me first, but my phone decided to blow up and die on me (quite literally), so I have been without a phone for two days and that is usually how I get on here, so I had to order one through the mail overnight.*

 

Sorry bout your phone! Dang! Those things are expensive too.

 

*Pffttt, he would NEVER watch a musical. I mean, maybe if we tied him to a chair and put duct tape over his mouth, would he watch it, but that would just be mean, and we are sweet and innocent, right? Heehee! :D*

 

I was just thinking he should have to watch musicals one of these days... I was watching Oliver! the other morning and thinking how much he would enjoy that one... musical AND Charles Dickens as well.... tee heee. Let's get the rope and the chair.... :D

 

 

*OH, i definitely agree. Their dramas are among my top favorites!*

 

Mine too. The 1935 day yesterday blew my mind, all those great movies, a lot were MGM ones.

 

*You know, I've been watching more and more silents and I have realized that the strangest ones come from MGM. It is hardly believable. I saw Greed not too long ago and was astounded by the darkness displayed by Stroheim, but then he was quite known to be a free spirit with his filmmaking. I was also highly impressed with Zasu Pitts and was never really noticed her before that. I mean I had seen her in some other things, but her performance was pretty solid!*

 

Isn't it crazy? She's AMAZING, especially if you've only seen her goofier lightheaded characters. Have you seen Lazybones? You HAVE to see it Tea. It's so good, and she's really great.

 

I can't believe you saw Greed.... I can barely get through it, though parts of it are really fascinating. It's just so black and cynical.

 

*Flesh and the Devil (1926) also comes to mind as really depressing and dark even for MGM silents. It was just a weird one all around. I don't like the ending to it.*

 

I LOVE *Flesh and the Devil!* I like everything, the ending, all of it. It certainly is dark, but the ending with the two friends is redeeming.

 

*I saw The Mortal Storm before I ever saw Escape and I clearly remember my reaction to the storyline. I was really surprised that they even attempted it in the 30's and it's also another one that ends on a really depressing note. Did you notice that the word, "Jew" was never used in the film? My mother caught that at the end of the movie (she is obsessed with anything having to do with World War 2 and has always tried to figure out Hitler. You should see her book collection. geee.) and it baffled me when I thought back on it. I actually watched it again, because I really didn't understand some scenes between Sullavan and Young.*

 

And I can totally see that. That relationship is complex, the scene is unusual and you think it's going to go one way but ends up taking another route. So it's confusing. Those scenes with Young are my favorites now, but I did not like it at all when I was younger.

 

I think they also don't say 'Nazi' or 'German' either. There was a German envoy in Hollywood at the time, and he had gained such control over the studios that they all just basically kowtowed to his wishes, and they removed all traces of WHERE the story was supposed to take place. I just read that recently.

 

*Mrs. Miniver is also an excellent example of wartime propaganda. Just that one scene with Greer and the german pilot grabs my fullest attention. The dialogue between them and their body language; it just all seemed so real and scary. But they wanted to put that message in your head. It's kind of manipulative when you think about it. Now I'm not saying that I am at all against the movie. It is one of my favorites, but the message from it, just hits you in the face.*

 

I agree. I think it's also pretty dark that they killed a main character, a young person.

 

*Please tell me you're being sarcastic with The Dorian Gray comment. Heehee! Poor Angela!*

 

Yes,ma'am that was sarcasm! :D

 

*I have mixed feelings about Dore Schary when he came after Papa Mayer. He really empowered the studio with a strategy that was completely the opposite of Mayer, even the musicals were different, not necessarily in a bad way, just different. You can tell when you watch films like Love Me or Leave Me, just how different the style and flow of the film is.*

 

I used to hate Dore Schary. :D I hated that he tried to take MGM to a darker place. I felt he ruined the studio. Lately I've been appreciating the movies made at that time more.

 

*Not at all, I was really just picking on Frankie, but I didn't want anyone to give up hope on MGM, because their movies are so magical. They can instantly cheer you up on a bad day! :D*

 

I agree. I really need my Singin in the Rain, and Meet Me in St. Louis fix occasionally! This is one of my favorite musical numbers, even though it isn't a great film - it always makes me happy:

 

 

 

*A Woman's Face is definitely interesting. Please nobody hate me for saying this, but I am not a fan of Joan Crawford, so it was really hard for me to sit through this one and not think on a biased level, but i have been REALLY trying to get passed it and like her, by watching more of her films. And this one in particular was excrutiatingly dark. It's a frustrating story, but I do have to say that I was fairly impressed with Crawford's ability to withstand "ugly" makeup in the first half of the film. That surprised me.*

 

No hate here! Don't worry.

 

I know, it's so uncharacteristic for Crawford. And I don't put it on my GREAT movies list, but I find it to be an extraordinary performance and really interesting to watch. That's why it's a favorite for me, it's so different. I love how the outer affects the inner in this film.

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Grey Dude: I'd LOVE for Quiet Gal to watch that one

 

Jackie: I think Ro's head would explode if she watched jean brodie

 

Grey Dude: Ha! Oooooh, let's get her to watch it! Let's get her to watch it

 

Well far be it from ME to disappoint my friends. Thank GOODNESS for youtube. I found it and watched it.. just for YOU Mr. Grey. :D

 

And may I just add.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er3-wbk25mQ

 

 

HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:P:D:P

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You do still have a head

 

I DO indeed.. but oh me, I had to just about glue it back ON. :P

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Ha! *The African Queen* probably looks a lot better now! I can just picture the parent-teacher conferences between you and Jean. :D

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The African Queen probably looks a lot better now

 

Ha.. well.. they are two entirely different "animals" aren't they. :D If I had to choose between them.. I would definitely go with Bogie and Kate.. at least in THAT movie they got to make their own torpedo to get even with the folks that were giving them so much trouble. :D

 

I can just picture the parent-teacher conferences between you and Jean

 

Oh FORGET the parent-teacher angle. I am SO way past that for this movie.. ha. You forget that I have been the troop coordinator for a scouting ministry (with over 50 young girls) at my church for the last six years now... I'm Miss. MacKay! :D

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*Ha.. well.. they are two entirely different "animals" aren't they. :D If I had to choose between them.. I would definitely go with Bogie and Kate.. at least in THAT movie they got to make their own torpedo to get even with the folks that were giving them so much trouble. :D*

 

You women and your violence! Strangling, kicking, slapping, hanging, torpedoing!

 

*Oh FORGET the parent-teacher angle. I am SO way past that for this movie.. ha. You forget that I have been the troop coordinator for a scouting ministry (with over 50 young girls) at my church for the last six years now... I'm Miss. MacKay! :D*

 

You're killing me! You definitely are Miss MacKay!

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_Howdy, Denver_ -- By the way, I loved your "double post" post.

 

*The Blue Angel (1930) - I don't think I have to say why.*

 

Ha! And you would be right!

 

*White Zombie (1932) - This one is soooo creepy.*

 

I loved Bela but I felt the film was plodding.

 

*The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie (1969) - I am taking a big risk putting this one so high, but I remembered how much you like Tennessee Williams and this movie reminds me of Streetcar. It's got all sorts of messy emotions and screwed up motives. If you can get past it's Britishness, I think you'd rate it highly. But can you.....?*

 

Wow! Jean does have a "Blanche" deal going on with her! I would have never made that comparison. And Blanche would scream "Assassin!"

 

*The Hands of Orlac (1924) - this would have rated higher but it's tremendously slow moving and they could have cut out a lot of the film without losing the plot. I rated it higher than I feel it deserves or than I probably should have, because the idea is so good, and some of the scenes really stick with you.*

 

I agree with you, the film is very slow going. It's wonderfully moody thanks to Veidt and the visuals, though.

 

*Buck Privates (1941) - you seem to really enjoy A&C and this one is early on for them. Some great schtick.*

 

I'm learning that I do not like the early A&C. There is way too much singing involved. I felt as if this film was more about the Andrews Sisters than A&C. The later films are more about Bud and Lou.

 

*Hail the Conquering Hero (1944) - I am gambling on this one too. When I first saw this one, it really fell flat for me in comparison with the other Sturges films. I now find it creeping up the list again. I think you liked it, but didn't LOVE it.*

 

I loved it! It's everything that's wonderful about Preston Sturges.

 

*Cesar (1936) - Hard to say whether this one came in higher for you. I rank it here, figuring you will go for the way it sees all sides. Again, I find it hard to rank this separately from the others in the series.*

 

It's my least favorite of the three, namely because it's the most serious of the three. All together, the trilogy is sensational, though. It really is a celebration of life.

 

*Kongo - really really bizarre,It starts out way over the top but gets you in the finale. I'm hoping you'll like it, even though it's pretty much a rip off of another movie. It isn't as good, but has it's own charms. Walter Huston being one of them and a good leading lady + the other girl is pretty.*

 

I can't say that I've seen a crazier film. It's wild! Huston is a force of nature. The negative for me was that it's such a tough watch. It's a grinder.

 

*The Notorious Landlady - I've never seen it, but you have been pretty good with sex comedies and Kim.*

 

I do love Kim and sex comedies. But I found this to be charming. It's really an "Audrey Hepburn" kind of film.

 

*Ringside Maisie - I think this is one of the better Maisies, I like the milieu. They kind of dip down for a while but this one marks an upswing in the series for me. Good cast.*

 

I agree. This is the best of the films since *Maisie*, the first film.

 

*Hobson's Choice - I am really not sure with this one, but I will take a guess that you like the love story at the center.*

 

That Maggie sure knew her stuff! I can see why you'd like this one.

 

*711 Ocean Drive - I've only seen part of this one. An OK movie, sort of cheap procedural in feel even though it's not a police drama. Edmund O'Brien is always fun to watch. Nothing special but an easy watch.*

 

That's almost exactly how I felt about the film. It just never captured me, even though I like O'Brien.

 

*Split Second - I haven't seen it but you discussed it so I am ranking it.*

 

It's a pretty interesting film.

 

*Heroes for Sale - a really good unknown movie, with a super performance by Barthelmess. Dark. I should have rated it higher I think now.*

 

No, you ranked it right. I was worn out by all of the ups and downs. It felt like *Forrest Gump* of the Depression Era!

 

*Golden Earrings (1948) - I enjoy this one so much, and I can't figure out why. It's patently ridiculous, so kitschy it works. I think you'd like it for it's humor.*

 

You described it perfectly. It really is ludicrous, but the passion from Marlene is good.

 

*The Last Time I Saw Paris - this one goes in the middle because I am just totally unsure - it's either a love or a hate.*

 

I liked it much more than I thought I would.

 

*The Last Mile - Very good performance by Mickey, this is one of my favorite of his later films. I think you'd like seeing the grit of it, and his really different performance.*

 

It's fascinating! It really played with my emotions.

 

*The Lavender Hill Mob - This is my least favorite of the Ealing comedies, but it has a lot to recommend it and it's quite suspenseful in the end. Did you spot Audrey Hepburn in a bit part?*

 

Oh, yeah. I definitely saw "Chiquita". I didn't like this comedy as much as the other Alec comedies I have seen, but it's still quite good.

 

*A Connecticut Yankee - I REALLY liked this one far more than I thought I would.*

 

What did you like about it?

 

*The Tender Trap - This one is meh for me, I like Susan Slept Here better. But you tend to like these stories a bit better than I do. Or maybe you hated it. Everyone is good but who cares? David Wayne is good as always.*

 

David Wayne! It's your guy! He's exceptional in the film, too. I do like *Susan Slept Here* more. But this one was all right.

 

*Mata Hari - Talk about kitschy! I think you'll actually like this one in spite of it's more ridiculous aspects.*

 

You are right! I thought the scenes with Greta and Ramon were sizzling. Very "silent film".

 

*If I Had a Million - Some of the stories are just great but not all - my personal favorites are Charles Laughton (hahahahaha, it makes me laugh just thinking about it), The streetwalker story, and George Raft's section, where I think George does some of his best acting.*

 

I would have guessed you liked this film since it's episodic. My favorite was easily W.C. Fields' story. That was hilarious.

 

*State Fair - I have missed recording this every single time it's been on, but I did see part of it once - I saw the end. I really loved what I saw, but this is not your kind of story.*

 

I pretty much enjoyed it. You are right, this is not a film that will rank highly with me but I still like it enough. It's very sweet and loving.

 

*Life With Father - This isn't you. I love it, but I can't get you and it into the same space, so I am placing it low.*

 

Fooled ya!

 

*In This Our Life - I think you won't like the more potboiler aspects of this one, but I could be way off. This one might come in high for you because of those family situations and bad girl/good girl storyline. But I don't think so. I think you'll think it's unpleasant.*

 

This time, I loved Bette's selfishness. She's a cyclone!

 

*Sunrise at Campobello - It's a really good movie but I don't think it will do much for you. Ralph never gave a better performance though. Stagey and perhaps you'll think it's long.*

 

I don't like biopics, but this one was all right. Ralph was wonderful. Hume was terrific!

 

*Fire Over England - wow, It has Viv, but it's costume, British, and she's not in it much.*

 

And it has Olivier. Ugh! Flora is great, though.

 

*A SPOILER'S FACE*

 

*I just watched the Ingrid version of A Woman's Face.*

 

Woohoo!

 

*It was very very different I thought, but it did bring back to me the depth of the story which I liked so much in the first place.*

 

I found the stories to be similar, it's just the presentation, Anna's focus, and the ending were much different in the Hollywood version.

 

*I really REALLY liked (in both films) the way the waterfall was a symbol of her inner turmoil.*

 

Hey, that's good!

 

*I also really enjoyed how her new face changes her inner landscape. I think that both movies capture something kind of intangible...when she had an ugly face, she saw, or thought she saw ugly feelings in those around her. Once that was gone, she started to see the loving instead, and that acted on her in a totally different way than anything ever had. She herself started to be kind, to love herself and others.*

 

Fantastic! That's a terrific analysis. I thought the Swedish version was better at showing this because of the ending.

 

*When she responded (in the MGM movie) to Torsten's love of her, it was something new and made her feel good. THAT was what moved her in the film. Later when she saw others who loved far more than Torsten, she was changed and began to see him for what he was.*

 

That is correct. There's also Dr. Segert (George Brent).

 

*In the Swedish movie, there are very few closeups, which made the moment when the little boy hugged and kissed her quite momentous - there was a huge gorgeous closeup of Ingrid, shocked,by the show of love. She quickly reached up to her face as if to wipe it off, or keep it from her, but it burned her, it got inside her.... into her soul...and then she gave in to emotion. I don't remember anything as striking in the MGM film, but I haven't seen it for a while.*

 

Excellent! Boy, you're really capturing a lot of this film. And you just touched on why I prefer the ending to the Swedish film. It's not about Anna finding everything in life, it's about her finding herself. The Hollywood version has Anna getting it all. American audiences do prefer this, of course.

 

*I liked the twistedness of the MGM story much MUCH more than the Swedish one.*

 

I agree with that. The Hollywood version is darker. They pull the "Devil" card!

 

*Combining the two sets of characters the way they did really put the story on a little bit higher plane, a more complex level for me. However, I liked the little boy in the Swedish film WAAAAAY more, and also the grandfather and Emma were charming.*

 

Yes, I certainly like the boy in the Swedish version more. That goes without saying!

 

*I liked Osa Massen far more than the blackmailed woman in the Swedish film, because she added some more of that twistedness to her character, not good, not bad. I did like the Swedish blackmailed woman, just not as much.Things and people were a lot more black and white in the Swedish film - for instance, Ingrid could truly hate and despise Torsten - which the combining of characters really jumbled up (to my delight) in the American film.*

 

The Hollywood version has much richer characters. The characters are mostly bland in the Swedish version. The Hollywood version uses the characters to bring forth a lot of humor, too. The Swedish version is humorless.

 

*And of course, Veidt was brilliant, none of the characters or actors even touched the hem of his silk smoking jacket. :D I also did NOT like Ingrid's makeup as much as Joan's... and I didn't quite feel Ingrid was as sensitive to her deformity as Joan was. That doesn't mean she didn't do an excellent job.*

 

Nothing comes close to Veidt in the Swedish version. He really is playing the "Devil". The Swedish is much more straightforward. There's no broad strokes or flourishes. It's a straight story.

 

*I felt that the straightforward telling of the story really hurt the Swedish version, though the film was still surprisingly good. They jumped right in and let everything come out right at the start. It surprised me, and though it worked, I LOVE the way the MGM writers twisted up the beginning, making it far more of a mystery at first...you aren't quite sure of what's going on. They let little pieces of the pie come together slowly. I I felt the Swedes should have ended it a little sooner as well, that draggy ending with her seeing the 'angel' in the hospital and then going to the doctor could have been told in 2 minimal scenes, instead of taking 15 minutes.*

 

I agree with all of that. This is why I say the Hollywood is much more dramatic. The Swedish version lacks all the pizazz that Hollywood offers up. And I do prefer the Hollywood version, even with my liking the Swedish ending more.

 

*I liked the Swedish version of the sleigh scene, taking place at night. I may not be remembering the American version, but didn't it take place in the daylight? I would have chosen night time again for the remake.*

 

I don't remember, either!

 

*Both films copped out on the ending. Perhaps there was no perfect resolution for such a striking dilemma. At least, not at that time. I felt the Swedish film caught a little bit of a class situation at the end - there was NO WAY she could go with Harald, they made it perfectly clear. At least in the American version, she was allowed to move on and have the hope of a happy life, because she redeemed herself with her good acts.... paid for her sins. I don't know how one would resolve this story - perhaps having her bow out by her own choice, as she did in the Swedish version, but more quickly? to just disappear, a la I Am a Fugitive From a Chain Gang.... but I feel that's too harsh for her character to bear. It doesn't feel quite right either.*

 

I liked the Swedish ending. As I mentioned before, I think it was all about her finding herself as a person. It wasn't about finding love and having everything be perfect for her. That's the "tidy bow" I speak of. I just love the finish on the ship. It's almost as if Ingrid is going from *A Woman's Face* to *The Inn of the Sixth Happiness*.

 

*Most of all, I really felt Joan captured something deep and tormented in the character. I loved how she hid herself. I really felt her pain, even when she was being cruel at the beginning. She really tortured HERSELF. Both were excellent, and Ingrid's character got to go a little deeper into a terribly harsh background. But I find Crawford deeply fascinating in the American film. I truly like her better. I did like how Ingrid's character changed very very slowly, but maybe they both did, I can't remember quite as well as I would like to. Changing Torsten to a love interest helped heighten the psychology and the fight within. I never thought I'd say I liked Joan better than Ingrid in all my life, but I felt Joan brought a more bitter, natural edge, with complete sympathetic understanding of this woman's mind and heart, even at her worst. She totally captured the character.*

 

I also prefer Joan to Ingrid in this role. Joan is much more dramatic, and it works in the film. I also find her much more believable in playing this kind of character. When Joan is angry and hateful, I buy it. When Ingrid is, I don't. Ingrid is the woman I'm always looking to protect. I never think I need to protect Joan!

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_*Frank wrote:*_

*Thunder Road (1958) -- A very poorly acted and directed "bootlegger" flick. It seemed like the entire picture was spent with one shots, as if the director did not trust actors exchanging lines in the same shot. Maybe he was right. Robert Mitchum did what he could in his scenes.*

 

*Best of luck! And if you happen to love it, no need to be shy about saying it.*

 

_*Mlle Greer wrote:*_

*Je ? sais ce film dont vous parlez! It's a pretty good one of Mitchum. I like that his brother was in it with him. Did you like it? I really like Keely Smith for her singing, but when she is on film there is almost something missing a lot of the time for me.*

 

Yes, you are right, Keely is a little out of her element here, she is singer, not an actress. Same with James Mitchum (brother in the movie, son in real life), who was stone-faced throughout but still managed not to embarrass himself IMO. Lots of shots of Robert Mitchum sauntering, looking cool, talking cool; driving a car cool; that is, when he is not delivering karate chops, gosh I'm surprised that guy ever got up. Speaking of whom, amusing that he (the city crime boss) should be given a penchant for classical music, a guy like that. When the cops finally cuff him, he?s listening to (pedantry alert :P ) the famous Spanish Dance No. 5 "Andaluza" by Granados, I wouldn't identify him with that, I think of him more as an 1812 Overture kind of guy, ha. Neither the story nor the little dramas among the characters really grabbed me. I hate to say this but the "characters" I liked the best were those snazzy 50s Chevys and Fords, long and low, super-chromed (Chevy?s), flair-out fins (Ford), I mean this was a great film for the autos with all the booze running and stunt driving. When the final fade out came with Roxanne and Robin (young Mitchum) walking away "in the sunset," I was recalling a conversation earlier in the movie when Roxanne was trying to get romantic with Lucas (Robert Mitchum):

 

*Lucas*: Roxy, why don't you just find yourself somebody that'll be content to punch a time clock or plow a field, and have a mess of kids.

 

*Roxanne*: I would, if they looked like you

 

Taking into account the especially STRONG resemblance between the Mitchums, I was amused at the possibility that the movie might be winking at us with Roxanne now going after Robin so that her children would "look like you," meaning Lucas. I know, I know, that?s not right, but I was not excited about the story and I was looking for redemption. I was prepared to like the film if they could make me believe that Roxanne was so dumb that she was in love with the resemblance and not the man. Well, I was amused for a moment anyway. In that same conversation there was a hint that Lucas was suggesting Roxanne go after Robin but she was clearly in love with Lucas (and getting him killed for it. :( ).

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*Hello Captain Johnny!*

 

Hello Mlle Greer

 

*Absolument, mais il est glace partout!*

 

Mais non partout, pas en Californie, if falt toujours beau :P

 

*Bien se reveiller! il est temps pour le plaisir! You got that? FUN!*

 

Tu a raison. Quelle bonne philosophie! Desormais, je vais m'amuser toujours.

 

*Well that's just dandy. Now I can't pout anymore in front of you!*

 

C?est exact, il ne faut pas pout-ay devant moi. :)

 

*You are so reminding me of Kevin Kline in The Pirates of Penzance right now. Heehee! I bet you even get all soft hearted when you see orphans!*

*or Ted Hamilton in The Pirate Movie. Either one works... :D*

 

Did he get soft hearted with orphans? And he was a pirate? Oh, Kevin? I don?t know Ted Hamilton but that?s fine with me if he is anything like Kevin :D Orphans don?t make for good kidnapping because there?s no one to pay ransom. (Oh, laffite, no? :( ) You see how mean I am. :o

 

*I still have my machete!*

 

Uh-oh!

 

*Well when i do that in person it doesn't work either. People just start laughing at me. Heehee! BUT, I could it's about trying, right?*

 

You mean, Muhahaha? No doubt you can actually do it quite well, being a singer; and you can probably do it with the appropriate coloratura flourish. But as to sounding evil, well, I guess you ARE too hopelessly sweet for that. You would make a lousy Torsten Barring, even a female version :) .

 

*Ha. Ha. Ha. I haven't the foggiest notion what you are talking about. Greer wouldn't ever hide anything. She was too sweet for that.*

 

Well, now, let?s not exaggerate :P I mean you can't be that sweet if you carry a machete :D

 

*It's a cheesy 90's pirate movie with Geena Davis starring. She pulls off the womanly pirate quite well and would't hesitate to push you off the plank. But you would like it!*

 

Yes, Greer, I'll think I try this, hmmm a woman pirate who looks like Geena Davis, who could go wrong with that ;) . But I don?t think I would like being made to walk the plank (or did you mean I would like the movie?), not for a Geena Davis, not for anyone, not even for a sweet machete-carrying lass with a Greer-ish smile. :) .

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*Howdy, Denver -- By the way, I loved your "double post" post.*

 

I can't leave a space like that! I like to fill it up with something. :D

 

*White Zombie (1932) - This one is soooo creepy.*

 

*I loved Bela but I felt the film was plodding.*

 

I haven't seen it for a long time, so the plodding has fallen away and left me with images of power. I remember finding this one almost unbearable, story wise.

 

*Wow! Jean does have a "Blanche" deal going on with her! I would have never made that comparison. And Blanche would scream "Assassin!"*

 

I watched it twice in a month recently, which really brought forward parts of the plot that always mystified me when I was younger, and I suddenly realized that she was just like Blanche.... who I've always sympathized with. In this one you can sympathize, but not tolerate in her position. Gosh, Maggie Smith was great! I can't think of another actress who could have played this role - she's deluded and magnificent and strange and wonderful and messed up badly. Her need to shape someone into a do-over of herself is really potent and awful. You can see why her 'little girls' are so taken with her and her dreamy, romantic but dangerous ideals. And she's beautiful too. I forgot she was ever that pretty. She sets up competition without meaning to, or at least not on a conscious level. She needed to be taken down. I just feel she ruined so many lives, most of all Sandy, the girl who took her down...because Sandy loved her too. The movie sets up sympathy for Miss Brodie, but also shows how she was a destroyer. Sandy was too, but for all the right reasons, she had to.

 

I love the other characters too. Gordon Jackson is one of my favorite British character actors. He can get a huge amount out of a tiny little role. Robert Stephens was perfect - He reminded me of Dennis Price, or David Farrar - sexy and smarmy in a way that only British men can be. Celia Johnson's Miss McKay is a lesson in acting. Wow. Her scenes with Smith crackle and bite. As good as some of the other scenes are, those are the ones that are overpowering. It's quite a brilliant film. It does almost everything right including the final confrontation between them. Don't ever cross Miss McKay. She'll wait for an opportunity and take you down in the end. (Ro!) hahahahahahaha!

u.

 

*I agree with you, the film is very slow going. It's wonderfully moody thanks to Veidt and the visuals, though.*

 

You have to keep watching for Veidt. Some of the best parts are simply shadows and light.

 

*I'm learning that I do not like the early A&C. There is way too much singing involved. I felt as if this film was more about the Andrews Sisters than A&C. The later films are more about Bud and Lou.*

 

I can see that. The studios were hedging their bets. I haven't watched them for a long time. Funny how it worked the opposite for Bud and Lou than it did for the Marx Bros. The Marxes started out zanier, with whole movies to themselves, and later the studios kept sticking in more and more plot and music.

 

*I loved it! It's everything that's wonderful about Preston Sturges.*

 

I agree. I love Ella Raines in this one too. Her scenes where she's in a quandary and trying to explain herself to the boyfriend are sweetly hilarious. And the best part of the movie, the part I never miss is Woodrow's speech to the crowds... he tells them he isn't worthy of their adoration, but they think he's just being modest! It's hysterical and a very potent and funny exposure of how political trickery is so ingrained in American culture.

 

*It's my least favorite of the three, namely because it's the most serious of the three. All together, the trilogy is sensational, though. It really is a celebration of life.*

 

Yes, I'd agree with that. It's the most sad in some ways. There are a lot of strings to untangle here, and they aren't successfully pulled apart. It's like real life, it doesn't always come out the way we like it in the end. Sometimes things stay unresolved and we have regrets... even when we don't want them, think we've avoided them. And something of the free spiritedness of the first two films is lost here, even though the quality of the film is better due to the time it was made. I like the soaring messy spirit of the first two films best.

 

*I can't say that I've seen a crazier film. It's wild! Huston is a force of nature. The negative for me was that it's such a tough watch. It's a grinder.*

 

OK. I found Virginia Bruce to be quite good, which kept me interested. And at first I thought Huston was AWFUL. I've never thought that before! But he pulled through in the end. But really West of Zanzibar was so much better.

 

*I do love Kim and sex comedies. But I found this to be charming. It's really an "Audrey Hepburn" kind of film.*

 

Interesting. I may have to watch this one now.

 

*I agree. This is the best of the films since Maisie, the first film.*

 

How can you not like a movie that has Slapsie Maxie Rosenbloom AND Rags Ragland in it? AND Virginia O'Brien? And Jack LaRue? I thought Ann Sothern and George Murphy really sparked a bit, I'm not a huge George Murphy fan, but in this one he's good. There are about 3 movies of his I really like.

 

*That Maggie sure knew her stuff! I can see why you'd like this one.*

 

Why do you think I'd like it? Why did you like it?

 

*That's almost exactly how I felt about the film. It just never captured me, even though I like O'Brien.*

 

I watched it longer than I thought I would, if nothing but to see how O'Brien ended up.

 

*No, you ranked it right. I was worn out by all of the ups and downs. It felt like Forrest Gump of the Depression Era!*

 

It's got a lot of good reviews at the other site, a lot of fans who are into pre-codes. I have to say, you hit on the head why it wasn't as thrilling to me. I do like Barthelmess, and I think the people who are gaga for this movie are his fans, who wanted to see him in a decent talkie. His career was very slapdash after sound came in. For me, it was a little bit overdone, I didn't quite believe the ups and then the downs, they seemed contrived.

 

*You described it perfectly. It really is ludicrous, but the passion from Marlene is good.*

 

I can't help it, I am a big Marlene fan and I even like Ray Milland, Together they are _good._ I can't explain why I like it other than that. Ray's humor, and Marlene's kitsch. It's a pure guilty pleasure and I love it. It's fun, that's all.

 

*I liked it much more than I thought I would.*

 

Same here, I feel that the performers take it seriously when all reason says not to. Some movies just work that way - they shouldn't be good but they are thanks to actors who give their all, while retaining a light touch. It works for me. Love the color and style of it too.

 

*It's fascinating! It really played with my emotions.*

 

YES! You think one thing then find yourself coming down on a different side, and then back again. I'm glad you liked it.

 

*Oh, yeah. I definitely saw "Chiquita". I didn't like this comedy as much as the other Alec comedies I have seen, but it's still quite good.*

 

It seems a rung down from the others for me, and a little bit long, but it's enjoyable and I like the kind of cracked way that a little kid brings them down. Actually, it's their own fear that takes them down... if they hadn't gone after that last statue, they would have gotten away with it.

 

And I really love Alec Guinness' character. This little mild mannered fellow, scheming and plotting in the back of his head for years. There's something satisfying about the heist - how they all underestimate him, think him foolish and frumpy and womanish. It makes you WANT him to take the gold if only for spite against his bosses and the people who look down on him.

 

*A Connecticut Yankee - I REALLY liked this one far more than I thought I would.*

 

*What did you like about it?*

 

I've only seen other versions - where a regular normal guy goes back in time. I like the story, but so what if a normal fellow like Bing Crosby goes back? Then it's just unusual. For it to be Will Rogers, now THAT is funny. I like Twain and Rogers together. They have the same sensibility. I know some Twain fans don't like the film. Rogers is so incongruous, it just added to the humor of it for me, and I felt this was close to Rogers' humor - his own way of poking fun at what was happening around him. Topical. He's so American here in comparison, it makes me laugh. And he gets to rope and ride. I actually liked that they loosened up the story a bit, I liked the radio framework, though I know some don't.

 

I know some people who love Will Rogers think this is a terrible movie, maybe that's why I liked it better than I thought I would. I had low expectations of it and it exceeded them. I find it funny and silly, and a lot of fun. I also like Myrna and Maureen, though they don't have the greatest roles. They are two of my favorite actresses.

 

*David Wayne! It's your guy! He's exceptional in the film, too. I do like Susan Slept Here more. But this one was all right.*

 

He's a terrific actor. I've come to appreciate him more and more over the years, He's got great comic timing and yet he can also be very sensitive, touching. He knows when to give something a little touch of humanity or seriousnessor depth. He can even do real characters and accents, like in The Three Faces of Eve or The Cop and the Anthem. His characters even in comedy are not just caricatures.

 

I also have to say I don't like seeing swinger Frankie tamed by a little girl. It just feels a little bit wrong to me. I'm not crazy about the background story, with her being an actress.

 

I'd love to know what MissG thinks of this movie, whether she likes it or not. I don't think she likes Celeste Holm, so I wonder about how she feels about this movie....

 

*You are right! I thought the scenes with Greta and Ramon were sizzling. Very "silent film".*

 

I thought you might like the sexiness of it. It is quite steamy at times. I like these kind of movies that pit a man against his country or honor and a woman on the other side. Yes, it's a very 'silent film' contrivance and it can be silly, but I don't care. A lot of pre-codes had this kind of plot as well, The romance of it is something I like very much. When someone who uses emotion to gain information and then gets THEIR emotions tangled up, I eat that up with a spoon.

 

*I would have guessed you liked this film since it's episodic. My favorite was easily W.C. Fields' story. That was hilarious.*

 

That one is good too. Ha! How many of us would love to do that!

 

*I pretty much enjoyed it. You are right, this is not a film that will rank highly with me but I still like it enough. It's very sweet and loving.*

 

I loved this one, and the late forties version. Something about it gets me.

 

*Fooled ya!*

 

You dog. Are you trying to pull a fast one, liking a movie that we all know you should hate? :D

 

*This time, I loved Bette's selfishness. She's a cyclone!*

 

She really is. I like the dynamic between Bette and Olivia. I also like how Dennis Morgan isn't a good guy.

 

*I don't like biopics, but this one was all right. Ralph was wonderful. Hume was terrific!*

 

Oh god. I'm going to cry thinking about him. his cough.

 

*And it has Olivier. Ugh! Flora is great, though.*

 

Yes, but to me, Bette is the better Queen Elizabeth.

 

*A SPOILER'S FACE*

 

*Fantastic! That's a terrific analysis. I thought the Swedish version was better at showing this because of the ending.*

 

I thought they were about equal at showing her inner turmoil in the landscape.

 

*Excellent! Boy, you're really capturing a lot of this film. And you just touched on why I prefer the ending to the Swedish film. It's not about Anna finding everything in life, it's about her finding herself. The Hollywood version has Anna getting it all. American audiences do prefer this, of course.*

 

I can see that being preferable. But I still thought it was too long getting to that point. It really dragged after the rescue for me. Just get on the boat and go. That could have been wrapped up in seconds. We didn't need a reminder of the doctor leaving, or the hospital scene.

 

*I agree with that. The Hollywood version is darker. They pull the "Devil" card!*

 

I loved that.

 

Yes, I certainly like the boy in the Swedish version more. That goes without saying!

 

For sure.

 

*The Hollywood version has much richer characters. The characters are mostly bland in the Swedish version. The Hollywood version uses the characters to bring forth a lot of humor, too. The Swedish version is humorless.*

 

yes, but it was sweeter in a more natural way.

 

*Nothing comes close to Veidt in the Swedish version. He really is playing the "Devil". The Swedish is much more straightforward. There's no broad strokes or flourishes. It's a straight story.*

 

Yes, but very well done. I'd call it more of a drama than a noir. A Woman's Face MGM started out with a lot of noir. That's why the ending disappointed you. It ended in the bright light. It would have been better to retain a little of the feeling of the beginning. I thought it might be good if Anna was able to work with those who were disfigured, like she was.

 

*I agree with all of that. This is why I say the Hollywood is much more dramatic. The Swedish version lacks all the pizazz that Hollywood offers up. And I do prefer the Hollywood version, even with my liking the Swedish ending more.*

 

They both were worth watching. Just very different approaches.

 

*I liked the Swedish version of the sleigh scene, taking place at night. I may not be remembering the American version, but didn't it take place in the daylight? I would have chosen night time again for the remake.*

 

*I don't remember, either!*

 

Maybe Laffite remembers.

 

Didn't the MGM picture have the sleigh ride as a separate section, with the dramatic peak on a ski lift? That also worked better for me. It made Veidt seem crueler, that he would try again. And it was much more exciting.

 

*I liked the Swedish ending. As I mentioned before, I think it was all about her finding herself as a person. It wasn't about finding love and having everything be perfect for her. That's the "tidy bow" I speak of. I just love the finish on the ship. It's almost as if Ingrid is going from A Woman's Face to The Inn of the Sixth Happiness.*

 

I totally see that. I liked that, with the soaring bird overhead.

 

*I also prefer Joan to Ingrid in this role. Joan is much more dramatic, and it works in the film. I also find her much more believable in playing this kind of character. When Joan is angry and hateful, I buy it. When Ingrid is, I don't. Ingrid is the woman I'm always looking to protect. I never think I need to protect Joan!*

 

I agree. But they both had a good fix on the character. For me, Joan's was more about the darkness in her character, and Ingrid's was more about her goodness slwoly blossoming. Making it two totally different stories. I'm glad you referred me to the Swedish one. It was well worth seeing.

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HELLO Mr. Grey..

 

You're killing me! You definitely are Miss MacKay

 

Ha.. when it comes to defending my "gehls".. and the integrity of the education they receive from our organization.. ha. I make Miss MacKay look like an amateur. OH for pity's sake don't get me started.

 

I have to confess.. what little I knew about this movie.. I did not go into it with very high hopes for liking it. And I STILL can't say I "LIKED" it (because it would be like saying.. I like a tooth ache" ha. But I HAD to keep watching to see how it was going to pan out.. I had to know what the end result was going to be for everyone. (would it be an ambiguous ending..where nothing ever really resolves.. and it was just going to be a commentary on the experiences of this ONE group of girls.) OR.. was there going to be SOME end result to all the different ISSUES at hand. (And boy, oh boy.. was I glad that there was an "end result" ha. I DID so love the way it ended)

 

So to be honest.. despite the fact that stories like this are not really my "cup 'o tea", I think this film affected me in a lot of ways I didn't expect (because I did not count on feeling so defensive for those girls.. but I DID) I usually do not have much patience for "coming of age" type stories (set in private schools or summer camps, etc, etc, etc) ha. So my tolerance for the type of student mischief to be found in stories like this is usually pretty low. But they really didn't FOCUS so much on that (as I expected) it really was more about Miss Brodie's influence over them.. and the way she more or less worked to mold and warp them into the people she THOUGHT they out to be (to suit her own need to be worshiped and adored) and it was about how that all sort of came to a head and the resulting backlash for it. Very unexpected scenario for me.. I must confess.

 

And you know.. I must confess, too, that I likely had a hard time watching this film in the spirit it was intended..because at first, I wasn't sure what to think of it.

 

Was it:

 

1) A coming of age story about Miss Brodie's students and the impact she had on their lives? (for better or worse) Or...

 

2) Was it a commentary on Miss Brodie and her unorthodox methods of teaching (or not teaching) the girls about how to enjoy more "cultural" pursuits (as opposed to all that "hard knowledge"). OR...

 

3) Was it a really (really) dark "comedic" portrayal of some of the various types of teachers to be found in an all-girls school setting? (the philandering hypocrites.. the too-tightly-wound and by-the-book administrator.. the "nosey goodie-goodie old-maid out-dated teaching staff.. etc, etc. They were all there.. and in some ways.. I think I was supposed to find them humorous.(or was I???) ha. Because the fact of the matter is the humor is not too obvious in most of the story and when it IS obvious (and clearly trying to be funny) it is so dark.. you almost can't see it. (at least I couldn't)

 

 

And now after watching it all. I think if I am honest... to me it must have been all three.

 

But then again.. I am not so SURE about #3 ha.. and that is another reason I found it more able to be watched (than I might have otherwise) because while the "stereotypes" for some of the teachers were mildly amusing... I was on their side. ha. I wasn't sure if they were SUPPOSED to be LIKED (or if I was supposed to find them somehow "un-cool" or "pass?") But I DID like most of them. And I felt sorry for the fact that they might have even been portrayed in the manner that might have tried to make them look silly.

 

I enjoyed the music teacher who loved to sing (to the point of almost being annoying about it) ha. Poor guy.. he finally gave up being twisted and turned and used and found someone to really love him.

 

And the little "spinster" secretary with her beady eyes.. I do admit she was entertaining the way she sort of just "stared" but never said anything. ha.. but what about the little "spinster" ladies with the sewing class.. I THINK I was supposed to find them silly and old-fashioned.. but I LIKED them. (ha) I liked the chemistry teacher.. I even liked the GYM teacher. ha. (though to me she was the least-likable perhaps)

 

The only two teachers that just got on my nerves.. or that I felt were wholly DIS-likable were Miss Brodie.. and the art teacher. (ugh.. what a hideous guy HE was.. bleh)

 

And you know.. we were joking about me "being" Miss MacKay. but to be honest, to me, she was an alright gal. (I only wished she'd tried harder to figure out a way to get rid of Miss Brodie SOONER.. but then of course that might have made it a much shorter movie) :D

 

And ok, I admit.. maybe the reason that I LIKE all the "silly" characters is because to ME they aren't so silly. They enjoyed their jobs.. they LOVED teaching and showing the girls how to improve their minds and their lives.. (and they KNEW that she didn't) and that to me is what makes them much more relatable to me.

 

From the very beginning I just wanted to take Miss Brodie outside and knock her around a bit. ha. (never let it be said that I don't take my movies personally) But when she starts talking to her students and telling them all how wonderful she is... all the world was a stage to her (or at least that little corner of the world was) and those poor kids were her captive audience. They never stood a chance. Either way.. by "loving" them or just "tolerating" them.. she expected their worship of her.. without question. (and if you DID try to question her... you were cut down and ridiculed for it) I say again.. those girls never had a chance. Most of them she just tolerated. She'd cut them down and insult them.. and then accept their worship of her for doing it.

 

But worse still.. those she "loved" she propped up and attempted to create little mini-versions of her own self (the drama queen "actress" the "pretty face to be adored", etc). And poor Mary.. the way she is insulted and put in her place from the very start.. and then she is placed in the "inner circle" as a pet-project (because Miss Brodie saw it as her DUTY to fix whatever was "wrong" with that made her so unworthy. How benevolent of her.)

 

Agh.. I just wanted to scream at all of them.. get away!! ha. Poison!! Back off, girls!! I'll handle this! ha.

 

But to be honest.. I LIKED that the inner group of girls was really her undoing.. because the only one who really had any respect for her.. overall. was Mary (poor kid) The others made fun of her behind her back.. and really did not have much "love" for her as much as they just fantasized what it would be like to "BE" her.

 

Did you notice that Sandy wouldn't even let Miss Brodie "define" her the way she attempted to do the others?? She popped up saying "I'm the dependable one' when Miss Brodie was at a lack for words to describe her. She was an "independent" thinker and Miss Brodie underestimated her (because she TRULY believed they all worshiped and adored her. It never entered her mind that any of them would have a thought in their heads that she didn't put there for them.

 

Mini spoiler:

OH good gravy was it ever a rich moment for me when she realized that at least SOME of her students did NOT worship her as completely as she thought for.. and then for her to realize it was one of her PRIZED students who had hit her with the worst possible betrayal.. Poetic justice. Very gratifying to see that play out.

 

Because at the risk of sounding all "high and mighty" here.. I just have to say that it is a privilege to work with children.. to teach them and be a mentor to them. And I take that pretty seriously. And what makes Miss Brodie so despicable to me is that she takes that privilege and tramples it under her lovely designer-shod feet! OH for pity's sake indeed! Miss MacKay may have been stern.. and she may have even been hardnosed.. but.. ha.. she is no "Peacemaker".

 

And all kidding aside, I may say all that "peacemaker" stuff as a joke.. but if you want to bring out that side of me faster than anything.. harming children.. either physically, or mentally, or spiritually is one of the fastest ways I know. And to me.. Miss Brodie wasn't just a bad excuse for a teacher.. she wasn't just a poor role-model.. she wasn't even just a "drama queen". She was harmful, and in some very direct (and also indirect) ways. I just about wanted to crawl through the computer screen as I was watching her and shake the living daylights out of her. ha. I say again.. Miss MacKay would not have had anything on me.

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 6, 2014 2:35 PM

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Hello Jackie!!

 

Gosh, Maggie Smith was great! I can't think of another actress who could have played this role - she's deluded and magnificent and strange and wonderful and messed up badly. Her need to shape someone into a do-over of herself is really potent and awful. You can see why her 'little girls' are so taken with her and her dreamy, romantic but dangerous ideals. And she's beautiful too. I forgot she was ever that pretty

 

She literally had them all eating out of her hand (at least at the beginning) It was like a little stage show all for them.. on her life and her opinions and how she thought the world ought to be. Every lesson was a soliloquy. ha.

 

The one girl who just sat there sobbing at the telling of her story about Hugh dying on Flander's Field... OH me... ha.. I actually laughed at that part at first. And then I saw how really.. that was JUST what she expected from them. (I bet she wished they ALL had been driven to tears.. but one was enough. Anything to add to the "drama" of the moment (to get the maximum effect) And the way she used MARY for that purpose there towards the end.. AGH. (if she had been allowed to continue.. she'd have been telling THAT story for decades to come, making young girls cry even MORE, at every telling.

 

 

Don't ever cross Miss McKay. She'll wait for an opportunity and take you down in the end. (Ro!) hahahahahahaha

 

HA. Exactly!!!!!!!!!!! :D

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 6, 2014 2:58 PM

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:D Oh, this is going to be fun. You have certainly absorbed the film how I thought you would. And I can tell that Jackie saw it a little differently. It's all about our own personalities. I think my view is going to mirror Jackie's, for the most part.

 

I was mesmerized by Jean at the start. She was full of herself and highly dramatic, but her romanticism was so very engaging. As the film progresses, you start to see what is up with Jean and my opinion of her starts to change.

 

I think Jackie's comparison of Jean to Blanche is as spot on as it gets. I feel Jean is a damaged soul, just as Blanche is. Their days (prime) have passed them by and they are left to cling to their dreams and delusions.

 

If I was to take the film literally, in a black and white fashion, I'd have major issues with how Jean is teaching the girls and wishing for them to experience things, such as sex. I'd certainly come away disliking Jean. But I view the film in more of a figurative sense and this makes Jean likable. I feel for her, in some ways.

 

I will answer your message later on. But I just wanted to let you know how I feel about Jean.

 

I love hearing "her" song while she's riding her bike around.

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*Maybe Laffite remembers.*

 

The sleigh ride took place what looks to be twilight. When in shadows it looked really dark, other times there seems to be sun, so twilight or early evening. If a choice had to made, I would say night.

 

Your conversations are amazing. You talk about so many different movies and in such detail. I try to read through them but it's hard if I haven't seen the movies, which is usually the case, ha.

 

I conducted a search of my VHS collection (which is quite vast) and uncovered a tape that had all three Fanny movies on it. They were all taped at the slowest speed so I was worried about quality but amazingly the transfer was very good. I watched Cesar without too much difficulty, the subtitles were a little hard to read, white on white, but I got through it. Really loved it. Frank, you said you liked this one the least because it had less humor than the others. I think I was so engrossed that I didn't even notice that, but you are absolutely right. I guess the story had all this seriousness business to resolve, so the humor more difficult to weave in there. There some bits in the early Panisse section, but after he left it became a serious movie. I will look forward to any comments that you two may have and/or I might do a few paragraphs of my own in a day or two. I have to find some time.

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Oh, this is going to be fun

 

Well it HAS been a long time since we had a good ole fashioned mud fight... :P

 

You have certainly absorbed the film how I thought you would. And I can tell that Jackie saw it a little differently. It's all about our own personalities. I think my view is going to mirror Jackie's, for the most part

 

And that would not surprise me. I can see you and Jackie coming down on the opposite side of the fence from me on this and I already mentioned that I likely watched this film from a much different point of view than it was intended to be viewed. I will likely end up out there on my lonely mountaintop again with this one.. ha. :D

 

It is possible, if I had a different mindset about films of this nature in general (as they really just are not my "thing" most of the time.. ha) maybe I would have found a different spot to land on for the whole situation, perhaps. So I can see why you and Jackie can find more sympathy for her than I do. I bet most folks do. Because I DO feel I viewed her pretty harshly. And I said some things that maybe on the surface, sounded pretty judgmental even, I am sure. If you view this film from a more open minded perspective.. what I said is likely going to sound mean. But I don't mean for it to. It is really just how I saw her because I could NOT view her from such an "open" mindset. (due to some of the situations that took place in the story)

 

I agree she was lovely.. and very engaging too. She was one of these sorts of teachers that I think most girls would LOVE to have had at that age. She was fun.. and she bucked the system.. she was very "in the know" about all the various more sophisticated ways of looking at life. Who could blame those kids (and the men in the story) for falling under her spell.

 

But looking at it from the lens I have in front of me (from my own life perspective and the jobs that I have had where I have spent a very large portion of my life working with children) I just have too hard a time with some of those situations I mentioned (specifically the responsibility she had to her students.. and the way she treated them, not to mention the way she MIS-guided them to the point that they made some really awful choices) and so I find it very hard to have any affection for Jean Brodie at all.

 

I took her pretty literally.. so from that point of view.. she just makes me mad.

 

And I think that is the issue. It is most likely in the way she is presented that makes it so possible for us to see her so differently She was not shown from a "one-sided" point of view.. so if you can embrace BOTH sides of her.. you can find the sympathy that I can't. Because she WAS very charming at times.You almost enjoy some of her little "picnic" chats.. almost. But it is the context in which the story occurs (and the end result of all her teachings in the lives of some of her students) that really made it hard for me. It loses all that 'happy charm" when I see the sinister side of it.

 

Even though she is presented both ways (charming with a side of sinister) I just can't see her that way. It may be my "black and white" mindset getting in the way, perhaps. But I just have too a hard time with some of the things that happen in the story to find any affection for her.. despite her charm.

 

I think Jackie's comparison of Jean to Blanche is as spot on as it gets. I feel Jean is a damaged soul, just as Blanche is. Their days (prime) have passed them by and they are left to cling to their dreams and delusions

 

I have never seen that film.. so I really don't have any comparisons. But ha.. it is funny that you two should mention Blanche.. because when she was telling her story about Hugh.. just for a moment I caught a glimpse of a completely DIFFERENT Blanche.. ha.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQhHud7aCps

 

Of course.. I imagine Jean would be THIS Blanche's evil twin. :D

 

I will answer your message later on

Ha.. good! I will go sharpen my hat pin right now! :D:P:D

 

.

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>Bronxie! I'm so sorry it took me this long to get back. I didn't even see this reply! My apologies! :D>

 

Scotchie, no prob! (lol, I sound like that lock-jawed, run-it-up-the-flagpole-and-see-who-salutes-it Mad Ave colleague of Jack Lemmon in THE DAYS OF WINE AND ROSES)

 

>You are never creaky! Only cranky people are creaky. You, girlie, are not not creaky.>

 

 

Merci, my poppet! Although I've been known to get cranky when deprived of chocolate cake and jewelry for long periods of time.

 

>Vincente Minnelli is one of my top 5 favorite directors, but I could heartily agree with you on Two Weeks in Another Town. "Schlock" perfectly describes it, now that I know what it means. heehee! Even though Douglas was so known for being that tough guy with a hard exterior that noone can ever crack, I don't really see that uumph in his performance with this one, compared to his performances in The Bad and the Beautiful or even Detective Story. I did love Minnelli's style coming slightly out with the glamorous Italian Aristocrats just sparkling in the film. I have heard others comparing the film to a Federico Fellini piece of work and I can see that, but I really like Minnelli's own spin. I also think Edward Robinson and Clair Trevor were brilliant! It's so wicked to say, but I like their spats. They make for interesting entertainment.>

 

 

Yes, Eddie and Claire have a wonderful relationship there, lol, just like in KEY LARGO!

I agree about Kirk's general lack of spark in that movie. He seemed to be just going through the motions. I do love Vincente's sense of style in what I've seen of his work -- a sensitive, tasteful, subtle fashionable quality -- more than just skin deep in some respects.

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_Good afternoon, Torchy_ -- *I can't leave a space like that! I like to fill it up with something. :D*

 

I'm the say way!

 

*I haven't seen it for a long time, so the plodding has fallen away and left me with images of power. I remember finding this one almost unbearable, story wise.*

 

And that's exactly how the film has lingered with me. I keep thinking to myself, "I like it more than I thought." But I felt bored watching the film. It's just that Bela makes it memorable.

 

*I watched it twice in a month recently, which really brought forward parts of the plot that always mystified me when I was younger, and I suddenly realized that she was just like Blanche.... who I've always sympathized with.*

 

That's pretty much how I felt about Jean. As the film progresses, I did start to see what was going on with Jean and it did lessen my feelings about her. But, even by film's end, I still liked her on some level.

 

*In this one you can sympathize, but not tolerate in her position.*

 

That's correct. Although, I think some of her teaching methods are terrific, actually.

 

*Gosh, Maggie Smith was great! I can't think of another actress who could have played this role - she's deluded and magnificent and strange and wonderful and messed up badly. Her need to shape someone into a do-over of herself is really potent and awful.*

 

She is wonderful in the film. And I like your comment of "do-over". That's completely it. She's a weak woman who is living with her regrets, so she creates delusions.

 

*You can see why her 'little girls' are so taken with her and her dreamy, romantic but dangerous ideals. And she's beautiful too. I forgot she was ever that pretty. She sets up competition without meaning to, or at least not on a conscious level.*

 

All of that is correct. The girls are inspired by her crazy romanticism and passion. She comes across very alive but she's completely dead.

 

*She needed to be taken down. I just feel she ruined so many lives, most of all Sandy, the girl who took her down...because Sandy loved her too.*

 

Sandy is an enemy to the romantic dreamers because she's bitterly jealous of them. She's a cynical realist. Jean made her feel inferior and that's all the Sandys of the world need to motivate them. There's a spiteful cruelty to Sandy. Her motivations are not simply to protect others.

 

*The movie sets up sympathy for Miss Brodie, but also shows how she was a destroyer. Sandy was too, but for all the right reasons, she had to.*

 

Jean is dangerous to the most impressionable, to those who can be easily led. And, in life, you are going to find far more followers than those who think for themselves. And the girls in Jean's class are too young to really think on their own. In fact, we want them to stay in line, to listen to authority.

 

*I love the other characters too. Gordon Jackson is one of my favorite British character actors. He can get a huge amount out of a tiny little role. Robert Stephens was perfect - He reminded me of Dennis Price, or David Farrar - sexy and smarmy in a way that only British men can be.*

 

I liked how so very different these two were. Gordon (Gordon Jackson) was the non-confident, mostly sexless guy. He's a good guy but he lacks passion and creativity. Teddy (Robert Stephens) was the over-**** artist who has too much passion. He's a selfish user.

 

The artists in this film are painted harshly! They are wrecks. The other authority figures are all upstanding but terribly boring and prudish. This is why I felt the film was very even-handed.

 

*Celia Johnson's Miss McKay is a lesson in acting. Wow. Her scenes with Smith crackle and bite. As good as some of the other scenes are, those are the ones that are overpowering.*

 

That's where the confrontation in the film occurs. It's amazing to see Celia, the quiet housewife from *Brief Encounter*, acting like this.

 

*It's quite a brilliant film. It does almost everything right including the final confrontation between them. Don't ever cross Miss McKay. She'll wait for an opportunity and take you down in the end. (Ro!) hahahahahahaha!*

 

:D I thought the film was completely fascinating. One of the most thought provoking that I've seen.

 

*You have to keep watching for Veidt. Some of the best parts are simply shadows and light.*

 

I loved the scenes of him and his torment. Lots of loneliness.

 

*I can see that. The studios were hedging their bets. I haven't watched them for a long time. Funny how it worked the opposite for Bud and Lou than it did for the Marx Bros. The Marxes started out zanier, with whole movies to themselves, and later the studios kept sticking in more and more plot and music.*

 

You've got it. The studios were definitely "hedging their bets". Eventually they realized that A&C were good enough on their own.

 

And I tend to like the later Marx Brothers more! I'm definitely in the minority with that.

 

*I agree. I love Ella Raines in this one too. Her scenes where she's in a quandary and trying to explain herself to the boyfriend are sweetly hilarious. And the best part of the movie, the part I never miss is Woodrow's speech to the crowds... he tells them he isn't worthy of their adoration, but they think he's just being modest! It's hysterical and a very potent and funny exposure of how political trickery is so ingrained in American culture.*

 

Preston surely had his finger on the pulse of American politics and how ridiculous it is, especially the people. The ending is wonderful. It's very emotional.

 

*Yes, I'd agree with that. It's the most sad in some ways. There are a lot of strings to untangle here, and they aren't successfully pulled apart. It's like real life, it doesn't always come out the way we like it in the end. Sometimes things stay unresolved and we have regrets... even when we don't want them, think we've avoided them. And something of the free spiritedness of the first two films is lost here, even though the quality of the film is better due to the time it was made. I like the soaring messy spirit of the first two films best.*

 

The film starts with the impending death of a character, so that immediately makes the film more serious. You'll find some comedy here, though. When Marius reemerges the film really turns serious. The only comedic scene that I really remember is with the rock. That was hilarious. Also, Cesar is very much in the background in the film after the beginning. That really lowers the comedy rate.

 

*OK. I found Virginia Bruce to be quite good, which kept me interested. And at first I thought Huston was AWFUL. I've never thought that before! But he pulled through in the end. But really West of Zanzibar was so much better.*

 

I'm shocked you thought Huston was awful! I thought he was firing on all cylinders! He was so darn cruel! Virginia is terrific. I also liked Lupe Velez. All of the cast is very good, actually. It's just you better be ready for a good hour of hate.

 

*Interesting. I may have to watch this one now.*

 

You've never seen *The Notorious Landlady* ? If you like Jack Lemmon, I think you'll appreciate it. Fred Astaire is tremendous. The ending is madcap, ala *The Lavender Hill Mob*.

 

*How can you not like a movie that has Slapsie Maxie Rosenbloom AND Rags Ragland in it? AND Virginia O'Brien? And Jack LaRue? I thought Ann Sothern and George Murphy really sparked a bit, I'm not a huge George Murphy fan, but in this one he's good. There are about 3 movies of his I really like.*

 

And the boxing scenes are quite good! I did like George Murphy. He perfectly fit the guy he was playing. Ann's "feistiness" returns in this one. She gets so steamy. :D

 

*Why do you think I'd like it? Why did you like it?*

 

*Hobson's Choice* is a father/daughter film where the daughter goes out to prove her own worth against her father's wishes. This is a film that screams "you", personally.

 

I liked it because of Maggie (Brenda de Banzie) and her determination, mostly. I loved how she made everything happen. I loved how she made Willie (John Mills) become a man. Charles Laughton is hilarious, as well.

 

*I watched it longer than I thought I would, if nothing but to see how O'Brien ended up.*

 

And I didn't like the ending to *711 Ocean Drive*, despite its great setting.

 

*It's got a lot of good reviews at the other site, a lot of fans who are into pre-codes. I have to say, you hit on the head why it wasn't as thrilling to me. I do like Barthelmess, and I think the people who are gaga for this movie are his fans, who wanted to see him in a decent talkie. His career was very slapdash after sound came in. For me, it was a little bit overdone, I didn't quite believe the ups and then the downs, they seemed contrived.*

 

I'm actually surprised to find you feeling the same way as I do! From what I've seen about *Heroes for Sale*, most everyone really likes it. I was completely into the film at the outset. The war scenes are terrific and then the drug addiction had me thinking this was going to be a great film. But from then on, Tom (Richard Barthelmess) seemed to find every situation happen to him, ala Forrest Gump. That works in comedy, such as *Modern Times*, but to see it in a drama, it becomes ridiculous. HEROES FOR SALE SPOILER When Ruth (Loretta Young) dies because she's trampled in a protest, the film pretty much lost me. If there is one thing that really drives me nuts it's when characters just die for cheap emotion.

 

*I can't help it, I am a big Marlene fan and I even like Ray Milland, Together they are good. I can't explain why I like it other than that. Ray's humor, and Marlene's kitsch. It's a pure guilty pleasure and I love it. It's fun, that's all.*

 

It is that. I liked that the film was pretty much just those two. It's such an isolated romance. I thought that made the film.

 

*Same here, I feel that the performers take it seriously when all reason says not to. Some movies just work that way - they shouldn't be good but they are thanks to actors who give their all, while retaining a light touch. It works for me. Love the color and style of it too.*

 

I liked seeing Elizabeth Taylor playing this kind of woman. I'm not used to her being this way. It was such a nice change of pace. Of course, what I just ranted on about *Heroes for Sale* shows up here, too. But it's book-ended here, so it ended up working for me.

 

*YES! You think one thing then find yourself coming down on a different side, and then back again. I'm glad you liked it.*

 

You really sympathize with the death row inmates in *The Last Mile* but that changes somewhat. It's another very even-handed picture, I feel.

 

*It seems a rung down from the others for me, and a little bit long, but it's enjoyable and I like the kind of cracked way that a little kid brings them down. Actually, it's their own fear that takes them down... if they hadn't gone after that last statue, they would have gotten away with it.*

 

It is funny that the one schoolgirl is their undoing. But, as you say, it's more about their own fear and paranoia.

 

*And I really love Alec Guinness' character. This little mild mannered fellow, scheming and plotting in the back of his head for years. There's something satisfying about the heist - how they all underestimate him, think him foolish and frumpy and womanish. It makes you WANT him to take the gold if only for spite against his bosses and the people who look down on him.*

 

Oh, I was completely pulling for him! It's the "Scarlet Street" syndrome.

 

*I've only seen other versions - where a regular normal guy goes back in time. I like the story, but so what if a normal fellow like Bing Crosby goes back? Then it's just unusual. For it to be Will Rogers, now THAT is funny. I like Twain and Rogers together. They have the same sensibility. I know some Twain fans don't like the film. Rogers is so incongruous, it just added to the humor of it for me, and I felt this was close to Rogers' humor - his own way of poking fun at what was happening around him. Topical. He's so American here in comparison, it makes me laugh. And he gets to rope and ride. I actually liked that they loosened up the story a bit, I liked the radio framework, though I know some don't.*

 

The humor is very "Will"; how he's representing modern America and taking his shots. My favorite joke he tells is about advertising. How it's about getting you to spend money that you don't have for something you don't need. I laughed at that.

 

And his riding and roping was great to see. :)

 

*I know some people who love Will Rogers think this is a terrible movie, maybe that's why I liked it better than I thought I would. I had low expectations of it and it exceeded them. I find it funny and silly, and a lot of fun. I also like Myrna and Maureen, though they don't have the greatest roles. They are two of my favorite actresses.*

 

I remember Miss G telling me she wasn't crazy about this one but she just list it as one of her favorites from this group. Either she likes the film more than I realized or she really dislikes the films I have watched!

 

And I didn't know there were Will fans out there.

 

*He's a terrific actor. I've come to appreciate him more and more over the years, He's got great comic timing and yet he can also be very sensitive, touching. He knows when to give something a little touch of humanity or seriousnessor depth. He can even do real characters and accents, like in The Three Faces of Eve or The Cop and the Anthem. His characters even in comedy are not just caricatures.*

 

I haven't been that crazy about David, but I absolutely love him in *The Tender Trap*. And I think that's what's fascinating about watching all these films. Maybe the film isn't the best but there's a character and performance that you may really like in the film.

 

*I also have to say I don't like seeing swinger Frankie tamed by a little girl. It just feels a little bit wrong to me. I'm not crazy about the background story, with her being an actress.*

 

I always expect this with Hollywood films from this time. The bad girls win in film noir and the good girls win in the romantic comedies. Or are you saying there's something off because she's so young?

 

*I'd love to know what MissG thinks of this movie, whether she likes it or not. I don't think she likes Celeste Holm, so I wonder about how she feels about this movie....*

 

Oh, she adores Celeste! :P I can't see her liking Debbie Reynolds, either. Besides, Miss G was in the film! She's "Jessica"!

 

*I thought you might like the sexiness of it. It is quite steamy at times. I like these kind of movies that pit a man against his country or honor and a woman on the other side. Yes, it's a very 'silent film' contrivance and it can be silly, but I don't care. A lot of pre-codes had this kind of plot as well, The romance of it is something I like very much. When someone who uses emotion to gain information and then gets THEIR emotions tangled up, I eat that up with a spoon.*

 

You are one with tangled up emotions! :) The story meant nothing to me in *Mata Hari*. It was all about Greta and Ramon. I liked Ramon's puppy dog love for Greta. All of their scenes together were fantastic.

 

*That one is good too. Ha! How many of us would love to do that!*

 

And the crashes in *If I Had a Million* looked dangerous!

 

*You dog. Are you trying to pull a fast one, liking a movie that we all know you should hate? :D*

 

:D You know darn well I'll say if I don't like a film!

 

*She really is. I like the dynamic between Bette and Olivia. I also like how Dennis Morgan isn't a good guy.*

 

I was just taken by Bette's childish selfishness. She just wanted what wasn't hers. And the creepy relationship between her and Charles Coburn. Chuck!

 

*Yes, but to me, Bette is the better Queen Elizabeth.*

 

I'll have to check that out. Something tells me I'll like Flora more. Flora was so warm and human. She had such a worldly feel to her.

 

A SPOILER'S FACE

 

*I can see that being preferable. But I still thought it was too long getting to that point. It really dragged after the rescue for me. Just get on the boat and go. That could have been wrapped up in seconds. We didn't need a reminder of the doctor leaving, or the hospital scene.*

 

I thought the hospital scene was important in showing Anna's caring for someone and her need to confront herself. It was a big step in her finding herself, and that's what the film ends up being about in the Swedish version.

 

*yes, but it was sweeter in a more natural way.*

 

I agree with you. I do find the Swedish version to be sweeter and more natural. That's why I called it "straightforward and subtle".

 

*Yes, but very well done. I'd call it more of a drama than a noir. A Woman's Face MGM started out with a lot of noir. That's why the ending disappointed you. It ended in the bright light. It would have been better to retain a little of the feeling of the beginning. I thought it might be good if Anna was able to work with those who were disfigured, like she was.*

 

I believe you are right. The Hollywood version teases me with the darkness in what is a woman's picture.

 

*They both were worth watching. Just very different approaches.*

 

I certainly agree with that.

 

*Didn't the MGM picture have the sleigh ride as a separate section, with the dramatic peak on a ski lift? That also worked better for me. It made Veidt seem crueler, that he would try again. And it was much more exciting.*

 

The ski lift was used to bring great tension into the film. We were still a bit unsure of Anna and what she may do, at that point. That's when the "angel" in the form of the doctor rides by in another ski lift. This is where Hollywood knows how to be much more dramatic than the Swedish version.

 

*I agree. But they both had a good fix on the character. For me, Joan's was more about the darkness in her character, and Ingrid's was more about her goodness slwoly blossoming. Making it two totally different stories. I'm glad you referred me to the Swedish one. It was well worth seeing.*

 

Perfect!

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_G'day, Queen of the Furies_ -- *Well it HAS been a long time since we had a good ole fashioned mud fight... :P*

 

I'll say!

 

*And that would not surprise me. I can see you and Jackie coming down on the opposite side of the fence from me on this and I already mentioned that I likely watched this film from a much different point of view than it was intended to be viewed. I will likely end up out there on my lonely mountaintop again with this one.. ha. :D*

 

I don't think there's a right way to watch the film. We all view a film how we view it. Your personality tends to me more literal and "black and white". And that's not a criticism.

 

*It is possible, if I had a different mindset about films of this nature in general (as they really just are not my "thing" most of the time.. ha) maybe I would have found a different spot to land on for the whole situation, perhaps. So I can see why you and Jackie can find more sympathy for her than I do. I bet most folks do. Because I DO feel I viewed her pretty harshly. And I said some things that maybe on the surface, sounded pretty judgmental even, I am sure. If you view this film from a more open minded perspective.. what I said is likely going to sound mean. But I don't mean for it to. It is really just how I saw her because I could NOT view her from such an "open" mindset. (due to some of the situations that took place in the story)*

 

I just think your feelings are honest. I prefer that! And some subject matters are going to strike a nerve with each of his for our own reasons. I knew this film would do such a thing with you. There's a lot of "liberal/conservative" in the picture. Both sides are hit pretty good! In fact, the liberal side is really whacked by film's end.

 

*I agree she was lovely.. and very engaging too. She was one of these sorts of teachers that I think most girls would LOVE to have had at that age. She was fun.. and she bucked the system.. she was very "in the know" about all the various more sophisticated ways of looking at life. Who could blame those kids (and the men in the story) for falling under her spell.*

 

That's perfectly said. That's the danger of Jean. She's so attractive that she draws you in. But there's an ugliness to her that emerges.

 

*But looking at it from the lens I have in front of me (from my own life perspective and the jobs that I have had where I have spent a very large portion of my life working with children) I just have too hard a time with some of those situations I mentioned (specifically the responsibility she had to her students.. and the way she treated them, not to mention the way she MIS-guided them to the point that they made some really awful choices) and so I find it very hard to have any affection for Jean Brodie at all.*

 

Yes, I know. This is why I got a kick out of Jackie's saying your head would explode. :)

 

*I took her pretty literally.. so from that point of view.. she just makes me mad.*

 

I can tell! I got a kick out of that. :D

 

*And I think that is the issue. It is most likely in the way she is presented that makes it so possible for us to see her so differently She was not shown from a "one-sided" point of view.. so if you can embrace BOTH sides of her.. you can find the sympathy that I can't. Because she WAS very charming at times.You almost enjoy some of her little "picnic" chats.. almost. But it is the context in which the story occurs (and the end result of all her teachings in the lives of some of her students) that really made it hard for me. It loses all that 'happy charm" when I see the sinister side of it.*

 

There ends up being a sinister side to Jean, without a doubt. But I find her to be a tragic figure. Sure, it's her own doing. But I still feel for her because she's a damaged soul. With Jean, what makes her so attractive to the young girls (and to me) is undermined by her selfish motivations. But what's interesting is that there are selfish motivations found with the other members of the faculty, as well.

 

*Even though she is presented both ways (charming with a side of sinister) I just can't see her that way. It may be my "black and white" mindset getting in the way, perhaps. But I just have too a hard time with some of the things that happen in the story to find any affection for her.. despite her charm.*

 

That's understandable. And I think this does stem from your own personality, viewpoints, and situations. That's good!

 

*I have never seen that film.. so I really don't have any comparisons. But ha.. it is funny that you two should mention Blanche.. because when she was telling her story about Hugh.. just for a moment I caught a glimpse of a completely DIFFERENT Blanche.. ha.*

 

Ha! And that "Blanche" is most certainly based on the "Blanche" Jackie is referring to. *A Streetcar Named Desire* is another film that would drive you nuts, but for different reasons. I can't see you liking Blanche (Vivien Leigh). She's another woman in her "prime".

 

*Ha.. when it comes to defending my "gehls".. and the integrity of the education they receive from our organization.. ha. I make Miss MacKay look like an amateur. OH for pity's sake don't get me started.*

 

I'm sure of that! And in today's world, schools are facing much stricter guidelines and greater pressures thanks to individual parents being given far too much power with the boards that it's nearly impossible to be too creative. We live in such a "touchy" world.

 

*I have to confess.. what little I knew about this movie.. I did not go into it with very high hopes for liking it. And I STILL can't say I "LIKED" it (because it would be like saying.. I like a tooth ache" ha. But I HAD to keep watching to see how it was going to pan out.. I had to know what the end result was going to be for everyone. (would it be an ambiguous ending..where nothing ever really resolves.. and it was just going to be a commentary on the experiences of this ONE group of girls.) OR.. was there going to be SOME end result to all the different ISSUES at hand. (And boy, oh boy.. was I glad that there was an "end result" ha. I DID so love the way it ended)*

 

I loved the ending. It's very "Julius Caesar". And I loved that.

 

*So to be honest.. despite the fact that stories like this are not really my "cup 'o tea", I think this film affected me in a lot of ways I didn't expect (because I did not count on feeling so defensive for those girls.. but I DID) I usually do not have much patience for "coming of age" type stories (set in private schools or summer camps, etc, etc, etc) ha. So my tolerance for the type of student mischief to be found in stories like this is usually pretty low. But they really didn't FOCUS so much on that (as I expected) it really was more about Miss Brodie's influence over them.. and the way she more or less worked to mold and warp them into the people she THOUGHT they out to be (to suit her own need to be worshiped and adored) and it was about how that all sort of came to a head and the resulting backlash for it. Very unexpected scenario for me.. I must confess.*

 

And that's precisely how I saw the film, as well. Miss Brodie is attempting to soothe her own personal failings and regrets through her girls. She views herself highly and feels the girls would benefit to be just like her. Jean is lying to herself. She only sees herself how she wishes to be seen not how she really is. I know quite a few people like Jean.

 

I actually had a family member say they were a "visionary". And guess what? They firmly believe it.

 

*And you know.. I must confess, too, that I likely had a hard time watching this film in the spirit it was intended..because at first, I wasn't sure what to think of it.*

 

*Was it:*

 

*1) A coming of age story about Miss Brodie's students and the impact she had on their lives? (for better or worse) Or...*

 

*2) Was it a commentary on Miss Brodie and her unorthodox methods of teaching (or not teaching) the girls about how to enjoy more "cultural" pursuits (as opposed to all that "hard knowledge"). OR...*

 

*3) Was it a really (really) dark "comedic" portrayal of some of the various types of teachers to be found in an all-girls school setting? (the philandering hypocrites.. the too-tightly-wound and by-the-book administrator.. the "nosey goodie-goodie old-maid out-dated teaching staff.. etc, etc. They were all there.. and in some ways.. I think I was supposed to find them humorous.(or was I???) ha. Because the fact of the matter is the humor is not too obvious in most of the story and when it IS obvious (and clearly trying to be funny) it is so dark.. you almost can't see it. (at least I couldn't)*

 

I think it's more of the first two than the third one. I feel Ronald Neame was drawing sharp lines with the faculty. They were shorthand for "by the book, unimaginative, non-individualistic". They are very much old-fashioned and outdated compared to Jean. Jean is "alive" and they are "dead".

 

The four primary schoolgirls are part of a cult with Miss Brodie being the leader of this cult. She's going to have great sway and influence over them but for different reasons. I think it's as you say, it can be more of subconscious influence.

 

*But then again.. I am not so SURE about #3 ha.. and that is another reason I found it more able to be watched (than I might have otherwise) because while the "stereotypes" for some of the teachers were mildly amusing... I was on their side. ha. I wasn't sure if they were SUPPOSED to be LIKED (or if I was supposed to find them somehow "un-cool" or "pass?") But I DID like most of them. And I felt sorry for the fact that they might have even been portrayed in the manner that might have tried to make them look silly.*

 

You associate more with those teachers. They match your mindset much more. I'm sure you're not as uncool as they, though!

 

*I enjoyed the music teacher who loved to sing (to the point of almost being annoying about it) ha. Poor guy.. he finally gave up being twisted and turned and used and found someone to really love him.*

 

He was a weak-willed man who needed to be guided.

 

*And the little "spinster" secretary with her beady eyes.. I do admit she was entertaining the way she sort of just "stared" but never said anything. ha.. but what about the little "spinster" ladies with the sewing class.. I THINK I was supposed to find them silly and old-fashioned.. but I LIKED them. (ha) I liked the chemistry teacher.. I even liked the GYM teacher. ha. (though to me she was the least-likable perhaps)*

 

You would! There's no way I was going for any of these folks. Not to say that any of them weren't likable or kindly. It's just as a student, I wouldn't be thrilled with any of them.

 

*The only two teachers that just got on my nerves.. or that I felt were wholly DIS-likable were Miss Brodie.. and the art teacher. (ugh.. what a hideous guy HE was.. bleh)*

 

Gee, I wonder why. :P:P

 

*And you know.. we were joking about me "being" Miss MacKay. but to be honest, to me, she was an alright gal. (I only wished she'd tried harder to figure out a way to get rid of Miss Brodie SOONER.. but then of course that might have made it a much shorter movie) :D*

 

No! Poor Jean! She would be the perfect teacher if it wasn't for her delusions.

 

*And ok, I admit.. maybe the reason that I LIKE all the "silly" characters is because to ME they aren't so silly. They enjoyed their jobs.. they LOVED teaching and showing the girls how to improve their minds and their lives.. (and they KNEW that she didn't) and that to me is what makes them much more relatable to me.*

 

Quit dancing around the point! They are YOU! There's nothing wrong with that. You identify yourself more with the faculty. Now let's ask Jackie who she identifies most with. :D Don't worry, I ain't the art teacher!

 

*From the very beginning I just wanted to take Miss Brodie outside and knock her around a bit. ha. (never let it be said that I don't take my movies personally) But when she starts talking to her students and telling them all how wonderful she is... all the world was a stage to her (or at least that little corner of the world was) and those poor kids were her captive audience. They never stood a chance. Either way.. by "loving" them or just "tolerating" them.. she expected their worship of her.. without question. (and if you DID try to question her... you were cut down and ridiculed for it) I say again.. those girls never had a chance. Most of them she just tolerated. She'd cut them down and insult them.. and then accept their worship of her for doing it.*

 

I can't say that I disagree with any of that. And, yet, I was enamored with her for the first half of the film. But she'd hate me. I'd challenge the heck out of her. Then again, maybe that would turn her on.

 

*But worse still.. those she "loved" she propped up and attempted to create little mini-versions of her own self (the drama queen "actress" the "pretty face to be adored", etc). And poor Mary.. the way she is insulted and put in her place from the very start.. and then she is placed in the "inner circle" as a pet-project (because Miss Brodie saw it as her DUTY to fix whatever was "wrong" with that made her so unworthy. How benevolent of her.)*

 

When it comes to Mary, there is some cruelty to be found. And I think in the world of beauty the "ugly" is often kept around to scorn and to magnify the beauty.

 

*Agh.. I just wanted to scream at all of them.. get away!! ha. Poison!! Back off, girls!! I'll handle this! ha.*

 

I'd love to see it!

 

*But to be honest.. I LIKED that the inner group of girls was really her undoing.. because the only one who really had any respect for her.. overall. was Mary (poor kid) The others made fun of her behind her back.. and really did not have much "love" for her as much as they just fantasized what it would be like to "BE" her.*

 

But I think this is very "female". They are mocking but there is great envy to be found in their mockery. How they feel about themselves comes out through the mockery. This is especially so with Sandy (Pamela Franklin). Sandy wants to be Jenny (Diane Grayson). She wants to be put on a pedestal by Miss Brodie. She wants to be the beautiful one. It burns her that Miss Brodie doesn't think of her in those terms. So what does Sandy do? She goes and does what Miss Brodie wishes Jenny would do. She's attempting to prove Jean wrong. It's all in spite. Everything Sandy does is really cloaked in envious spite. She really is an assassin, because she does so for selfish reasons.

 

*Did you notice that Sandy wouldn't even let Miss Brodie "define" her the way she attempted to do the others?? She popped up saying "I'm the dependable one' when Miss Brodie was at a lack for words to describe her. She was an "independent" thinker and Miss Brodie underestimated her (because she TRULY believed they all worshiped and adored her. It never entered her mind that any of them would have a thought in their heads that she didn't put there for them.*

 

Miss Brodie struggled to define her because there was no beauty with Sandy. She called her a "detective", I believe. Deep down, I think she knew she was a "Brutus". And it burned Sandy not to be thought of highly by Miss Brodie. That she wasn't "Jenny".

 

*Mini spoiler:*

 

*OH good gravy was it ever a rich moment for me when she realized that at least SOME of her students did NOT worship her as completely as she thought for.. and then for her to realize it was one of her PRIZED students who had hit her with the worst possible betrayal.. Poetic justice. Very gratifying to see that play out.*

 

I loved that, too. It showed how delusional Jean was but I also liked seeing her reaction to the betrayal of trust. It's a great ending.

 

*Because at the risk of sounding all "high and mighty" here.. I just have to say that it is a privilege to work with children.. to teach them and be a mentor to them. And I take that pretty seriously. And what makes Miss Brodie so despicable to me is that she takes that privilege and tramples it under her lovely designer-shod feet! OH for pity's sake indeed! Miss MacKay may have been stern.. and she may have even been hardnosed.. but.. ha.. she is no "Peacemaker".*

 

If I were to take the film literally, my issue with Jean would be with her pushing sex with an older man on such young girls. That cannot be. I also have issues with her teaching one-sided (Fascism) and not allowing for a dissenting opinion or just the idea of another opinion. That's too close-minded. But I definitely love her romantic style and her willingness to show a bigger world.

 

To me, teaching is about inspiring one's students. You will find a more receptive class, one willing to listen and imagine if you are inspirational and romantic. This is Miss Brodie. The rest of the faculty leaves one cold.

 

Basically, is sex love-making or is it simply a means to an end? Miss Brodie believes in making love.

 

*And all kidding aside, I may say all that "peacemaker" stuff as a joke.. but if you want to bring out that side of me faster than anything.. harming children.. either physically, or mentally, or spiritually is one of the fastest ways I know. And to me.. Miss Brodie wasn't just a bad excuse for a teacher.. she wasn't just a poor role-model.. she wasn't even just a "drama queen". She was harmful, and in some very direct (and also indirect) ways. I just about wanted to crawl through the computer screen as I was watching her and shake the living daylights out of her. ha. I say again.. Miss MacKay would not have had anything on me.*

 

It's always difficult to know what truly is harmful to children and what is not. I'm speaking emotionally. We may feel as if we are raising our children well but we may be instilling emotional qualities in them that could prove to be harmful to them and others. This could be done so indirectly, and it's often done unintentionally.

 

Some of what Miss Brodie taught could prove to be terribly helpful to those girls. It may encourage them in some areas they would not be otherwise. She may challenge them to think and feel differently than they are. That can be helpful or harmful or both. Basically, how children are raised from birth through the school years can be extremely "gray". We all wish it were "black and white", but it just isn't.

 

I always say we humans are awfully vain. We are absolutely convinced that how we view things in life is the "right" way.

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_Hi, Laffite_ -- *Frank, you said you liked this one the least because it had less humor than the others. I think I was so engrossed that I didn't even notice that, but you are absolutely right. I guess the story had all this seriousness business to resolve, so the humor more difficult to weave in there. There some bits in the early Panisse section, but after he left it became a serious movie.*

 

That's how it played for me, as well. There is some humor at the start but that eventually fades away. Cesar seems to be in the background in the film and I feel this was a big reason for the humor lacking.

 

*I will look forward to any comments that you two may have and/or I might do a few paragraphs of my own in a day or two. I have to find some time.*

 

I hope you find the time!

 

*Yes, you are right, Keely is a little out of her element here, she is singer, not an actress. Same with James Mitchum (brother in the movie, son in real life), who was stone-faced throughout but still managed not to embarrass himself IMO. Lots of shots of Robert Mitchum sauntering, looking cool, talking cool; driving a car cool; that is, when he is not delivering karate chops, gosh I'm surprised that guy ever got up. Speaking of whom, amusing that he (the city crime boss) should be given a penchant for classical music, a guy like that. When the cops finally cuff him, hes listening to (pedantry alert :P ) the famous Spanish Dance No. 5 "Andaluza" by Granados, I wouldn't identify him with that, I think of him more as an 1812 Overture kind of guy, ha. Neither the story nor the little dramas among the characters really grabbed me. I hate to say this but the "characters" I liked the best were those snazzy 50s Chevys and Fords, long and low, super-chromed (Chevys), flair-out fins (Ford), I mean this was a great film for the autos with all the booze running and stunt driving.*

 

It sounds like you found more to like in *Thunder Road* than I did. I'm glad! I know the cars are often cited as one of the reasons folks like the film. I'm not into cars.

 

*When the final fade out came with Roxanne and Robin (young Mitchum) walking away "in the sunset," I was recalling a conversation earlier in the movie when Roxanne was trying to get romantic with Lucas (Robert Mitchum):*

 

*Lucas: Roxy, why don't you just find yourself somebody that'll be content to punch a time clock or plow a field, and have a mess of kids.*

 

*Roxanne: I would, if they looked like you*

 

*Taking into account the especially STRONG resemblance between the Mitchums, I was amused at the possibility that the movie might be winking at us with Roxanne now going after Robin so that her children would "look like you," meaning Lucas. I know, I know, thats not right, but I was not excited about the story and I was looking for redemption. I was prepared to like the film if they could make me believe that Roxanne was so dumb that she was in love with the resemblance and not the man. Well, I was amused for a moment anyway. In that same conversation there was a hint that Lucas was suggesting Roxanne go after Robin but she was clearly in love with Lucas (and getting him killed for it. :( ).*

 

I feel you are onto something with that. Since Roxie can no longer have Lucas, his much younger brother could serve as his replacement. That's a dangerous recipe for a marriage!

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A thought or two about *The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie*:

 

Muriel Spark, author of the novel, was a devout Catholic. She was sometimes lumped with writers like Flannery O'Connor and Graham Greene as "gloomy Catholics"--not the *Going My Way* kind. We never see the process of Sandy finding religious faith. We can infer that her selfishness and envy and betrayal eventually lead her to a renunciation of her sins, and of the world.

 

Miss JB was turned into a hit play, with Vanessa Redgrave as Miss Brodie. There's a later mini-series starring Geraldine McEwan, who is also great. The role is so good that just about any appropriately cast actress can make a great success with it. The movie follows the novel closely.

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_Hola, Meanie Mint_ -- *When have I ever given you indication of being snippy?!...You're the one who provokes it!*

 

Not snippy! I know who is snippy. You're snobby!

 

*Shows how much you know! ;)*

 

I'm clueless, as usual!

 

*You like it for it's silence? Of course you would. How did I not pick up on that? I find it hard to hand so much silence or great pauses in film unless it leads to something phenomenal or it's a build-up. In 2001, it's not really a build-up a lot of the time. It's more of the story in the long run. That makes it hard for me the concentrate.*

 

There isn't much story to be found. That's the first hang-up for people. The second is the visual silence. I just love the visual silence.

 

*It's the finer things in life you can't appreciate. Heehee! :P:P You won't even make snow angels! I should plan a musical flash mob just to torture you. :D It would be SO MUCH FUN!*

 

That would certainly be torture!

 

*I am SUPER surprised An Affair to Remember is even on your top list for all Fox films! Your taste in films has definitely altered over the years at least slightly. I'm so HAPPY about that. Heehee! That just bugs you doesn't it? :P*

 

I watched that back in 2008 or 2009, I believe. I'm more of a romantic today than before I arrived on the board.

 

*How did I know that The Innocents would be up there? That is a really creepy movie. I wouldn't want to be around those kids. I love how clearly deborah shows her fear and confusion, though. It's so real.*

 

It really does have a creepy vibe to it. It also has some disturbing moments.

 

*The only one I am not surely about it 3 Bad Men. I haven't seen that one from start to finish. I have seen the first half hour of it, but got distracted and didn't finish it. I don't even remember all that much from it. Do you really like Oliver borden?*

 

Not so much her. I like the three "bad men". They are terrific.

 

*This was EXTREMLY hard to narrow down. Here's my list I just compiled of my TOP favorites before 1970 from FOX:*

 

*1. Margie*

*2. The Sound of Music*

*3. An Affair to Remember*

*4. Nightmare alley*

*5. Hello, Dolly!*

*6. Ramona*

*7. Zoo in Budapest*

*8. 7th Heaven*

*9. Heaven Knows, Mr Allison*

*10. The African Queen*

*11. Four Men and a Prayer*

*12. How to Steal a Million*

*13. The Beautiful Blonde from Bashful Bend*

*14. Anna and the King of Siam*

*15. River of No Return*

*16. Alexander's Ragtime Band*

 

Nicely done! That list definitely seems like "you"... which is great. Well, all but one title! And how did Marilyn Monroe show up?!

 

*As for my MGM list, I was right. I have seen more movies from that studio than any other and found that there was no way to make a narrowed down list that is small. I love WAY too many of them. I would have to split my list up in all genres before i ever do that. there are just too many.*

 

You grandma must have loved MGM!

 

*I think you're silly!*

 

That's for sure!

 

*It's really hard not to notice him! You're just saying that to make me flustered. I'm not giving in. NEVER! :P*

 

Women!

 

*GASP!!! That's mean! You know perfectly well who Loretta is! Her pre-codes are always really good. You can't go wrong with any of them!*

 

There are some that I've gone wrong with!

 

*I like Maggie Smith! I had to watch it at least once and I ended up really baffled the first time. The next time I saw it, I ended up liking it. But it's one of those ones that is kind of a guilty pleasure for me. Because it has many uncomfortable parts in it and some of the characters are so easy to hate and be annoyed with. I like how different it is.*

 

This isn't Butterscotch!

 

*Oh really?! And why do you think I liked it? - This should be good.*

 

Van Johnson and Walter Pidgeon!

 

*Oh my word!! Seriously?! I'm shaking my head at you right now. :P That is not why I LOVE it.*

 

:P:P I still say it's the title of *When Strangers Marry* !

 

*I wasn't that far off, but I actually regret not putting The Blue Angel in your top 5, because I had a really big feeling that would be one of your favorites, but I strayed away from it, because I know what your views are on her looks. I should have gone with my gut on that one.*

 

A man in ruin by film's end thanks to a woman? That's almost always going to rate highly with me! Welcome to film noir!

 

*Yes, I know. She shows a lot in that one, but she is really pretty and the music is good. I do like that one. It's not my favorite of her musicals, though.*

 

I can believe that. I'm sure her musicals with Fred are your favorites.

 

*I'm actually starting to have a grasp on what real "German Expressionism" is, thanks to you. I've been watching more of those kinds of films and to my big surprise, I like a lot of them. What are your top 10 favorite movies in that category? I'm actually really interested!*

 

I don't believe you! My top ten would be:

 

1. Faust

2. Sunrise (although it's American-produced)

3. Nosferatu

4. Phantom

5. The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari

6. Destiny

7. The Last Laugh

8. Warning Shadows

9. Secrets of a Soul

10. The Hands of Orlac

 

*Buck Privates - (This is among my top 5 favorite Abbott and Costello movies. It sends me in raptures of never-ending giggles.)*

 

You like it for the Andrews Sisters!

 

*If I Had a Million - (Gary!! I can't wait to hear what you think of this and of Operator 13. Though, the latter isn't among my favorites of his. It's a little slow for my taste in most parts. He's still gorgeous in it! Heehee!)*

 

Ugh! I liked *Operator 13* more. I thought Marion Davies was fun.

 

*Heroes for Sale - (What did you think of Loretta in this one? Gorgeous, don't ya think?)*

 

I liked Aline better! But Loretta was fine, too.

 

*The Prime of Miss Jean Brody - (Maggie earned that Oscar for it and it isn't particularly one I would normally go for, but I liked the controversy of what she goes through and how she handles it.)*

 

But she doesn't handle it well!

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_Hi, Kingrat_ -- *Muriel Spark, author of the novel, was a devout Catholic. She was sometimes lumped with writers like Flannery O'Connor and Graham Greene as "gloomy Catholics"--not the Going My Way kind.*

 

I would have never guessed it was written by a Catholic. I like the moniker "gloomy Catholic". That got a chuckle out of me.

 

*We never see the process of Sandy finding religious faith. We can infer that her selfishness and envy and betrayal eventually lead her to a renunciation of her sins, and of the world.*

 

I didn't see any kind of faith with Sandy. Does the book play up the faith angle more?

 

*Miss JB was turned into a hit play, with Vanessa Redgrave as Miss Brodie. There's a later mini-series starring Geraldine McEwan, who is also great. The role is so good that just about any appropriately cast actress can make a great success with it. The movie follows the novel closely.*

 

I knew of the play but not the mini-series. You are right, the character is so richly drawn that it would be a dream for any actress to play.

 

Is "Auntie Mame" anything like Jean?

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Hellloooo there Mr. Grey,

 

Your personality tends to me more literal and "black and white". And that's not a criticism

 

Well thanks for NOT making it a bad thing to think that way. ha. (that would be very black and white of you!) :D:P

 

To be honest.. for all my "black and white" ways.. I DO also have compassion for some of the "black" or even the "Grey" characters in stories where they get caught in those sticky moments and can't get out of trouble.. or when the "ax" falls for them (either literally or figuratively) . I may agree that they got what they deserve.. ha.. but I might still feel sorry for them anyway. I just depends on the issue at hand. Some "bad guys" can be very sympathetic.. but there are others, where you just have to cheer when they finally get what's coming.

 

For Jean.. when she finally got hers.. ha.. I almost gave it a standing ovation, :)

 

There ends up being a sinister side to Jean, without a doubt. But I find her to be a tragic figure. Sure, it's her own doing. But I still feel for her because she's a damaged soul

 

Ok.. she is a damaged soul. But she CAUSES damage too.. and to young children. That is just too hard for me to overlook, ha. (I am not kidding.. I got very defensive for those girls.. it really took me by surprise)

 

With Jean, what makes her so attractive to the young girls (and to me) is undermined by her selfish motivations

 

She was fun and flamboyant.. almost 'other-worldly".. at least to a bunch of impressionable young children. She had them more or less captivated by her beauty and her elegance. She was like a living "fashion model" to them.. someone you only see or read about in a magazine. Only here she was for real, telling them how to think, how to act, what to do if they wanted to be as wonderful as SHE was.

 

But what's interesting is that there are selfish motivations found with the other members of the faculty, as well

 

Possibly.. but other than the men, perhaps.. I did not seem them making choices that were hurting the students.. they were not being selfish on the same level as she was, and not in the way that she was. They just wanted to maintain the status quo.. mostly. Perhaps they were a little bit jealous of Jean too. (maybe?) But again.. I don't think they were going about doing things (directly or indirectly) that were causing harm. (other than the art teacher.. ugh.. did I mention how hideous I thought HE was, ha)

 

A Streetcar Named Desire is another film that would drive you nuts, but for different reasons. I can't see you liking Blanche (Vivien Leigh). She's another woman in her "prime

 

That is one of those movies I have to confess I have avoided over the years. (ha.. I think overall I am not a huge Tennessee Williams kinda gal.. all that shouting.. and everyone cutting each other to pieces.. that is how I always PERCEIVE his stories. I could be wrong) but if that were not enough.. I am NO huge Brando fan either. So it is likely a double whammy for me, ha.

 

I'm sure of that! And in today's world, schools are facing much stricter guidelines and greater pressures thanks to individual parents being given far too much power with the boards that it's nearly impossible to be too creative. We live in such a "touchy" world

 

And see, I look at it from a completely opposite point of view. I don't think parents get enough say, most of the time, in what their kids are being taught. I guess it is all in your perspective. But I don't think that is a good road to go down right now.. ha. So I will leave that alone for another day (one mudfight at a time, don't you know. ha) :)

 

I loved the ending. It's very "Julius Caesar". And I loved that

 

Hey.. that's it! ha. Et TU Sandy?? :D

 

Miss Brodie is attempting to soothe her own personal failings and regrets through her girls. She views herself highly and feels the girls would benefit to be just like her. Jean is lying to herself. She only sees herself how she wishes to be seen not how she really is

 

I think we ALL do that sometimes.. but she made a career of it. (ha.. literally) You have her described just right. She really thinks everyone wants to be just like HER (or ought to want)

 

I know quite a few people like Jean

 

Me too.. alas.

 

I actually had a family member say they were a "visionary". And guess what? They firmly believe it

 

Ha.. that reminds me of a line from one of the kidling's movies. (Underdog) when someone calls Simon Bar Sinister "insane" he says.. "I prefer the term 'Visionairy') ha. We quote that line around here all the time (and I don't THINK any of us really mean it.. or DO we??) :D

 

I think it's more of the first two than the third one. I feel Ronald Neame was drawing sharp lines with the faculty. They were shorthand for "by the book, unimaginative, non-individualistic". They are very much old-fashioned and outdated compared to Jean. Jean is "alive" and they are "dead

 

Hmmm. I don't know that I would agree completely. I think you are right in that he did draw pretty sharp lines between Jean and the "old school" faculty members. But I don't think they were as strong as "alive" and "dead" Because I think those old gals had a lot of life left in them.. and showed it more than once. I think they were just more or less portrayed as you mentioned earlier.. very conservative vs very liberal. Or perhaps very "old school' and very "modern" in the way they thought, acted, and dressed. The other faculty (with the exception of the art teacher, of course) really seemed to embrace the "old ways" as the "best way"

 

And I will take a side not here to just add that maybe that is not TRUE entirely.. (because they may not be the best way if something new comes along that is better) but it is not wrong entirely either. Sometimes you have to find a middle ground. Just because something is "old and traditional" doesn't make it invalid or dead.

 

Anyway.. I do agree.. there were some pretty sharp lines of contrast being drawn to be certain.

 

The four primary schoolgirls are part of a cult with Miss Brodie being the leader of this cult. She's going to have great sway and influence over them but for different reasons. I think it's as you say, it can be more of subconscious influence

 

OH "cult" is a perfect word. I agree that is just what it was too. They really were her "followers" even if they did not exactly embrace all her teachings in the same way. They were all influenced by her (to the extreme) in their own way.

 

You would! There's no way I was going for any of these folks. Not to say that any of them weren't likable or kindly. It's just as a student, I wouldn't be thrilled with any of them

 

Ha.. and I can understand that. It goes back to what I was saying earlier.. just because something is "old" it doesn't make it invaluable.. just unpopular, perhaps. Look at the movies we watch here.. most "young" people.. kids especially don't give them a second thought. They can't even stand the THOUGHT of watching an "old movie' or a black and white movie.. and HEAVEN forbid.. a SILENT movie.

 

Which is funny.. because for as "old" as they are.. we all sit here and talk about these movies like we just watched them for the first time yesterday. Oh wait.. I DID just watch this one yesterday.. or ha.. two days ago, anyway. :D

 

And ha.. here is the REALLY funny coincidence.. even as I type this, the junior high unit from the scout troop I am with is having a slumber party tonight at one of the unit leader's homes. so they can watch a silent movie. (NO kidding) They are earning their cinematography badge and watching a silent is of the requirements. And the leader for that unit is not even ALL that much younger than I am. I think she just turned 40 maybe... and SHE had not ever seen a silent movie herself.. so she did not have any idea what one to choose for them to watch or where to find one.. ha. NO I am not kidding and I am not making this up.. ha.

 

So she came to me and asked me what I would recommend and I told her they should see Chaplin's The Gold Rush (because I figured it had comedy.. romance.. even some action. ha.. all the right "mix" for Jr. High age kids)

 

So I am looking forward to hearing what they all thought. I just watched it earlier tonight myself so I can have it fresh in my mind the next troop meeting so I can ask them about it. I really do hope at least some of the girls enjoyed it.(but having said that.. ha.. I won't get my hopes up TOO high.. those "old dead silent movies ARE out of date and "uncool", don't ya know, ha) :D

 

Anyway.. I guess what I am saying is.. that it is likely one of those "perspective" things. I don't say that their ways of teaching in that school were the ONLY way to go.. but I think they were maybe being presented a bit "silly" because they were not as "valuable" in the minds of the girls.. and probably the writer of the story too, ha, if the truth was told.

 

Quit dancing around the point! They are YOU! There's nothing wrong with that. You identify yourself more with the faculty

 

Ha.. I do. (maybe that is why I am trying to defend them as NOT being dead. ha. How unhappy would I be if someone said that about ME. :D I would just have to reach out and kick them or something and say, ha.. Does THAT feel dead to YOU?? :D (ha. you really should not have given me that word "dead" ha.. I am just milking it for all it is worth, now) :D:P

 

Now let's ask Jackie who she identifies most with

 

I think I saw you call her name in one of your earlier posts.. I imagine I can guess too.. but will let her tell us both. :)

 

Don't worry, I ain't the art teacher

 

Thank goodness.. because as Mrs. MacKay, I would have to kick you.. I mean kick you out too. :P

 

But she'd hate me. I'd challenge the heck out of her. Then again, maybe that would turn her on

 

Ha.. and I bet you are right about both.

 

But all kidding aside.. that is why I think she was such a waste as a teacher. She did not WANT her kids to think for themselves. She only wanted them to think what SHE thought. (the question about the painting was a perfect example.. when she asks something like who was the best or most important Italian artist in history, and one girl answers Michaelangelo and she says NO and tells them it is HER favorite artist instead (I can't remember who it was) They were not allowed to think critically or individually.. they were just allowed think what she wanted them to, and nothing more.

 

How they feel about themselves comes out through the mockery. This is especially so with Sandy (Pamela Franklin). Sandy wants to be Jenny (Diane Grayson). She wants to be put on a pedestal by Miss Brodie. She wants to be the beautiful one. It burns her that Miss Brodie doesn't think of her in those terms. So what does Sandy do? She goes and does what Miss Brodie wishes Jenny would do. She's attempting to prove Jean wrong. It's all in spite. Everything Sandy does is really cloaked in envious spite. She really is an assassin, because she does so for selfish reasons

 

I think you are right. She was smarter (and in a lot of ways, stronger) than her teacher and more or less saw everything that she was doing and pretty much just capitalized on it. At least as she got older, anyway. She may not have started out to be as harsh as she ended up.. but she ended up that way, none the less.

 

If I were to take the film literally, my issue with Jean would be with her pushing sex with an older man on such young girls. That cannot be. I also have issues with her teaching one-sided (Fascism) and not allowing for a dissenting opinion or just the idea of another opinion. That's too close-minded

 

Those were just symptoms of the problem. The real issue was that she took her "personal" life and made it the curriculum. Everything they studied was a lesson in Brodie... what to think, how to act, who to like (or love) and why. Close-minded doesn't even begin to cover it.

 

But I definitely love her romantic style and her willingness to show a bigger world

 

I think that if she had just used her 'powers" for good instead of evil ha. (in terms of the influence she had over the girls) she could have made a MARVELOUS teacher, just for the reason you say. It COULD have been a whole other movie.. especially if she other faculty were presented as you say "dead" and cruel even... and then along comes this free spirit to break them all out of the mold of the cold, dark, girls school way of life and add a splash of color to their wardrobes while she's at it. ha.

 

THAT could have been a totally different movie where that sort of teaching style FIT and made sense.. and even was GOOD for the girls to be exposed to.

 

The way it was portrayed in this movie.. it was reckless, selfish, and totally corrupt. That is why I used the word I did earlier.. damaging.

 

To me, teaching is about inspiring one's students. You will find a more receptive class, one willing to listen and imagine if you are inspirational and romantic. This is Miss Brodie. The rest of the faculty leaves one cold

 

Well.. I do agree that a llarge part of teaching IS (or should be) about inspiring your students to learn.. but then you still have to TEACH them something valuable once they are inspired. I think Miss Mackay said it best.. (something like) "Culture cannot compensate for a lack of hard knowledge"

 

It's always difficult to know what truly is harmful to children and what is not. I'm speaking emotionally. We may feel as if we are raising our children well but we may be instilling emotional qualities in them that could prove to be harmful to them and others. This could be done so indirectly, and it's often done unintentionally

 

And see.. I agree with that one hundred percent. (and that is why I DO have such a hard time with Miss Brodie) She was instilling very harmful ideas (and ideals) in all those girls. (sometimes directly even, and very intentionally) And yet I don't think she had a clue (or even cared) that what she was doing was at all the wrong thing to do.

 

Some of what Miss Brodie taught could prove to be terribly helpful to those girls. It may encourage them in some areas they would not be otherwise

 

Ha.. that to me is like saying that it could be valuable if she taught them to put their hand on the hot burner of the stove.. just so they could learn later in life they would get burned.

 

She may challenge them to think and feel differently than they are. That can be helpful or harmful or both. Basically, how children are raised from birth through the school years can be extremely "gray". We all wish it were "black and white", but it just isn't

 

No.. it isn't all black and white, you are right. And that is where the "gray" comes in, for certain. However.. I think many teachers (especially those in institutions of higher learning.. high school and college) take way too much on themselves to "un-teach" parental values that their students learned at home. .

 

As in: How "intolerant' of you to say that there are moral standards that are always true or not true. Or "How "STUPID" you must be if you hold to "traditional" values these days" etc, etc. Intellectual intimidation to me is one of the worst forms of bullying.. and it happens a LOT to kids who come from more conservative backgrounds when they try to speak from that point of view in a lot of schools these days.. but again.. I won't go much further than that, because I don't think that is the mud fight I want to have with anyone here right now. ha. :)

 

I always say we humans are awfully vain. We are absolutely convinced that how we view things in life is the "right" way

 

It's true. Sometimes it IS about vanity.. but sometimes it is about what really is right (or not) It is a fine line now and then, I know.

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 8, 2014 1:22 AM

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