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Please dump the blacklisting reminders

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I took exception to the "well behaved" comment because it never occurred to me that speaking out and standing up for what one believes in as being "bad behavior".  

I also don't think we should be "celebrating" those who took no stance one way or the other in the matter, nor should we vilify them or the ones you accuse of not "behaving themselves".  As one local well known trial lawyer says in his TV ads.....

"If you don't stand up for something, then you don't stand for  anything." 

Now, we all know that blacklisting is an historical fact in the entertainment industry.  And unless a movie's plot is centered around that fact, or the screenplay was written by a blacklisted writer using a pseudonym, then that fact could be mentioned, but not needed to be dwelled upon. But I must admit to not tuning in to much of what's been on TCM lately, so I must have missed most of the "plethora" of blacklisting comments.

Sepiatone

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2 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

I took exception to the "well behaved" comment because it never occurred to me that speaking out and standing up for what one believes in as being "bad behavior".  

I also don't think we should be "celebrating" those who took no stance one way or the other in the matter, nor should we vilify them or the ones you accuse of not "behaving themselves".  As one local well known trial lawyer says in his TV ads.....

"If you don't stand up for something, then you don't stand for  anything." 

Now, we all know that blacklisting is an historical fact in the entertainment industry.  And unless a movie's plot is centered around that fact, or the screenplay was written by a blacklisted writer using a pseudonym, then that fact could be mentioned, but not needed to be dwelled upon. But I must admit to not tuning in to much of what's been on TCM lately, so I must have missed most of the "plethora" of blacklisting comments.

Sepiatone

I find this comment problematic because I think you are twisting things and it's impossible to have an honest constructive debate when the twisting of comments obscures the real topic. So I am going to pass on this one. 

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On 5/13/2018 at 6:35 PM, TopBilled said:

I think the political fights in the off-topics forum are spilling over on to threads in these other forums. TCM is creating a monster by not getting rid of those political threads and by not throwing that whole off-topics forum on to the trash heap. In my opinion it's making everyone quarrel more.

Nooooooo! Off topic is truly a place of wonder, filled with undoubtedly fantastic stuff that I have no interest in reading in any of the other forums - get rid of it & where do you think that stuff will end up? The mods already seem to have their hands full dealing with spam raids & full frontal m.... (lets not go there) 😉

As for previous era blacklisting & TCM - it's a part of film history & TCM tends to show a lot of movies from those previous eras, which is why contemporary blacklisting doesn't get mentioned so much. 

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On 5/13/2018 at 12:58 PM, TopBilled said:

It's a huge liberal cause, which TCM supports. So I doubt they will stop mentioning it.

I can never forgive them for causing Joseph Losey to leave the country!

In all seriousness, this is an interesting topic. You have a famous director like Elia Kazan, who aided the blacklistings by HUAC by supplying names of others in the industry, but then defends his position in this instance by creating a great movie to explain his position, with "On the Waterfront". So a fabulous movie is formed, by a director who some would say was antithetical to movie making by turning in some compatriots.

Was he right to do so? Was he wrong? Does this act make him less of a fine director or is it not tangential to evaluating his career in toto? The answers to these questions are difficult to ascertain with a black and white certainty for some I'm sure.

The Hollywood Ten probably are pretty sure of how they feel but overall what is the conclusion of film buffs? I don't know the answer to this but the questions are worth exploring but probably will never be totally agreed upon.

 

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53 minutes ago, CaveGirl said:

I can never forgive them for causing Joseph Losey to leave the country!

In all seriousness, this is an interesting topic. You have a famous director like Elia Kazan, who aided the blacklistings by HUAC by supplying names of others in the industry, but then defends his position in this instance by creating a great movie to explain his position, with "On the Waterfront". So a fabulous movie is formed, by a director who some would say was antithetical to movie making by turning in some compatriots.

Was he right to do so? Was he wrong? Does this act make him less of a fine director or is it not tangential to evaluating his career in toto? The answers to these questions are difficult to ascertain with a black and white certainty for some I'm sure.

The Hollywood Ten probably are pretty sure of how they feel but overall what is the conclusion of film buffs? I don't know the answer to this but the questions are worth exploring but probably will never be totally agreed upon.

A few years ago I was in La Crosse, Wisconsin. Downtown near the post office there is a Losey Street. It's such an unusual name that I wondered if it had any connection to Joseph Losey. Apparently he was born in La Crosse, so I am guessing the street is named after his family.

I should add that Nicholas Ray is from Galesville, which is 23 miles north of La Crosse. Apparently he and Losey went to school together at some point.

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Maybe the OP also has a different vantage point on the Holocaust, one as

clueless as his vantage point on the blacklist. The Hollywood Ten were, just

like some others, victims of the anti-Communist fanaticism that overtook the

U.S. after WWII. Once these things start, they're hard to end quickly. The 

Ten posed as much of a danger to the U.S. as a pack of Boy Scouts. But

the hysterics were temporarily in charge and so they did what hysterics usually

do.

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8 minutes ago, Vautrin said:

Maybe the OP also has a different vantage point on the Holocaust, one as

clueless as his vantage point on the blacklist. The Hollywood Ten were, just

like some others, victims of the anti-Communist fanaticism that overtook the

U.S. after WWII. Once these things start, they're hard to end quickly. The 

Ten posed as much of a danger to the U.S. as a pack of Boy Scouts. But

the hysterics were temporarily in charge and so they did what hysterics usually

do.

Just think, now...if the Hollywood Ten were alive and writing tales with a Red Slant for films, they might get an invite to the White House, and Scott Pruitt would send an enclave of security officers to protect them on the way from the airport, Vautrin.

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1 hour ago, CaveGirl said:

Just think, now...if the Hollywood Ten were alive and writing tales with a Red Slant for films, they might get an invite to the White House, and Scott Pruitt would send an enclave of security officers to protect them on the way from the airport, Vautrin.

Now that the Russians have shed communism, even if not some of communism's ways,

and are no longer reds, they are welcomed to the party. If that hadn't happened, they

wouldn't be. One can just imagine how hysterical an anti-communist Donny would have

been back in the day.

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The seminal play (in allegory form) about the blacklist era is Arthur Miller's The Crucible. Miller refused to name names and was convicted of contempt of congress. 

actors-madeline-sherwood-arthur-kennedy-

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15 minutes ago, Vautrin said:

Now that the Russians have shed communism, even if not some of communism's ways,

and are no longer reds, they are welcomed to the party. If that hadn't happened, they

wouldn't be. One can just imagine how hysterical an anti-communist Donny would have

been back in the day.

Let's not even go there. Trump might have asked FOX news to ban all "I Love Lucy" episodes due to that "better dead than Red" aphorism!

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5 hours ago, TopBilled said:

I find this comment problematic because I think you are twisting things and it's impossible to have an honest constructive debate when the twisting of comments obscures the real topic. So I am going to pass on this one. 

"Twisting" things??

Did YOU or did you NOT post something about the reason why those who DIDN'T get blacklisted was because they "behaved" themselves?

I think what you might find "problematic" is coming up with an intelligent explanation as to why you seem to think it was OK for the United States government to endorse the film industry's public relations jive by blacklisting writers and others in the business for exercizing their constitutional right to express their own opinions and have their own individual beliefs.  None of it had ANYTHING to do with "subversion" or "liberalism" or "radicalism", but EVERYTHING to do with the 1st amendment. 

Sepiatone

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8 minutes ago, Sepiatone said:

"Twisting" things??

Did YOU or did you NOT post something about the reason why those who DIDN'T get blacklisted was because they "behaved" themselves?

I think what you might find "problematic" is coming up with an intelligent explanation as to why you seem to think it was OK for the United States government to endorse the film industry's public relations jive by blacklisting writers and others in the business for exercizing their constitutional right to express their own opinions and have their own individual beliefs.  None of it had ANYTHING to do with "subversion" or "liberalism" or "radicalism", but EVERYTHING to do with the 1st amendment. 

Sepiatone

Like I said I am going to pass on this sort of protracted argument with you since it will take more time and energy than I want to spend on it...and it's clear we're not going to learn anything from each other since we're both probably stuck in our ways about this! LOL So, moving on...

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3 hours ago, CaveGirl said:

Let's not even go there. Trump might have asked FOX news to ban all "I Love Lucy" episodes due to that "better dead than Red" aphorism!

With Trump's disregard for the truth and being prone to fall for any idiotic idea that

comes along, he likely would have been an excellent red baiter. He just happened to

be born too late.

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Heh....

Took me a bit to figure what "I Love Lucy" had to do with any of this.  ;)

But people have made fun of that old "red scare" attitude ever since McCarthy went down.....

An old Bob Dylan song, "Talkin' John Birch Society Blues"  makes referrence to communists hiding everywhere, with a person claiming they might even be "behind the red jell-o in the refrigerator!"

In Paul Simon's song "A Simple Desultory Philippic" he makes referrence to people accusing him of being a communist, "because I'm left-handed".  Just as a joke because I don't think Simon IS actually left-handed.  But, as a lefty, I HAVE been accused of communist leanings because of it, some claiming my being left-handed is a "personal choice"  ;)   :rolleyes:

And BTW...

LUCY wasn't  a "real" red-head.  But Trump IS!  :o

Sepiatone

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2 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

Heh....

Took me a bit to figure what "I Love Lucy" had to do with any of this.  ;)

But people have made fun of that old "red scare" attitude ever since McCarthy went down.....

An old Bob Dylan song, "Talkin' John Birch Society Blues"  makes referrence to communists hiding everywhere, with a person claiming they might even be "behind the red jell-o in the refrigerator!"

In Paul Simon's song "A Simple Desultory Philippic" he makes referrence to people accusing him of being a communist, "because I'm left-handed".  Just as a joke because I don't think Simon IS actually left-handed.  But, as a lefty, I HAVE been accused of communist leanings because of it, some claiming my being left-handed is a "personal choice"  ;)   :rolleyes:

And BTW...

LUCY wasn't  a "real" red-head.  But Trump IS!  :o

Sepiatone

I knew you would figure out my Lucy reference, Sepia!

Wasn't Dylan's song banned from being performed on the "Ed Sullivan" show? It is rather amusing, even with references to other cult figures in it, like George Lincoln Rockwell.

Thanks for the nod to Simon's song "A Simple Desultory Philippic" which I am not familiar with but shall now search out. I like to learn at least one new thing daily, so you have filled the quota for today.

Ya know, in Latin class we learned that the word for "left" was the basis of the word, "sinister" so no wonder you were suspected of Commie leanings...haha!

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:D

Yeah, that "left handed" stuff would seem an easy argument to dispel had it not been for the fact that ADOLPH HITLER too, was also left-handed.  :huh:

But "props" to you for knowing that "factoid" about Dylan's song. The John Birch Society did have a frighteningly large amount of influence back in those times.  I had heard the song on some "bootleg" live  LP a buddy had long ago.  It WAS pretty funny.  ;) 

Sepiatone

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 HUAC were trying to identify those members of the Motion Picture Industry that were taking direction from the Soviets.

 

Whether these members had the ability to influence the American public to support Soviet Communism is purely speculative.  It is only important that the Soviets believed they could.

 

The "naming names" issue had more to do with those members of the Communist Party that overheard others promote Soviet ideology and did not want to turn in their friends.  They refused to answer HUAC"s questions, thereby aligning themselves with those that were under Soviet influence.

 

Those that did "name names" had to make the same choice.  They may have believed in Communist ideals, but taking direction from a foreign government bent on subverting your country was something totally different.  Testifying was the only way they could make it clear that they were not under Soviet influence.

 

Once again, there is a litmus test to determine those members that were being guided by the Soviets as opposed to those that merely favored Communist or Socialist ideals:  Those members that remained in the party after September 1939 and urged the United States not to help Great Britain, and changed their stance after June 22, 1941. 

 

As an aside, many, if not most of the members of the party were Jewish.  Many Jewish Communists left the party after Stalin and Hitler forged an alliance.

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On 5/15/2018 at 4:13 PM, CaveGirl said:

Let's not even go there. Trump might have asked FOX news to ban all "I Love Lucy" episodes due to that "better dead than Red" aphorism!

Beside the red hair, I remember reading that one of Lucy's relatives supported or was at least

registered as a left wing party member. For whatever reason Lucy also registered with this

party, perhaps just as a matter of convenience or she wanted to go along with her relative.

This caused her a bit of a problem later on. I'm sure the details can be found on the internet.

 

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4 minutes ago, Vautrin said:

Beside the red hair, I remember reading that one of Lucy's relatives supported or was at least

registered as a left wing party member. For whatever reason Lucy also registered with this

party, perhaps just as a matter of convenience or she wanted to go along with her relative.

This caused her a bit of a problem later on. I'm sure the details can be found on the internet.

 

Yeah, she attended Communist meetings in the 1930s. This was long before the red scare though.

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Most of the time, HUAC already knew the names. So "friendly" witnesses did not really

supply new information, they just had to go through the ritual of ratting out their

former friends. There will always be dirty rats who will do just about anything to save

their own skins.

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1 hour ago, Gershwin fan said:

Yeah, she attended Communist meetings in the 1930s. This was long before the red scare though.

True, but that didn't look good later on in the late forties and early fifties. 

Apparently her grandfather was a socialist, NTTAWWT.

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On 5/16/2018 at 10:27 PM, Vautrin said:

True, but that didn't look good later on in the late forties and early fifties. 

Apparently her grandfather was a socialist, NTTAWWT.

Lucy joined to please her eccentric Grandpa with whom she lived.

In her defense, her husband, Desi Arnaz, said during a live "I Love Lucy " show introduction:

" I want you to meet my favorite wife-- my favorite redhead--

 in fact, that's the only thing red about her -- and even that's not legitimate!"

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On 5/16/2018 at 11:10 PM, Vautrin said:

 

This caused her a bit of a problem later on. I'm sure the details can be found on the internet.

 

Which of course would then mean it's ALL TRUE!  :rolleyes:   :D

It tickles me how these kinds of discussions quickly degenerate into "Liberals v Conservative" kind of nonsense.  And it's typically those who claim to be "conservative" that head in that direction.  And it's sad because many of those who make the claim of being "conservative" aren't really.  But just more or less "illiberal". 

And the problem I have with either camp is that once one claims to be one or the other, they then allow those philosophies to overtake their own long held personal views in order to NOT seem out of place among the others in those groups.  It's like they're lying to both themselves AND all around them.  There once was a group from some university in the late '60's (or early '70's, I forget just when) that printed the principles of the U.S. constitution and the Bill of Rights in modern day and simpler vernacular and went around taking a sort of "poll".  Asking people, "How would you feel about living in a country like THIS?"

And a surprising ( but maybe not) number of American citizens claimed they would actually HATE to live in such a country!  With comments like, "What!  A country where EVERYBODY is thought of as the SAME?  God FORBID!"  or,  "It'd NEVER last.  Nor SHOULD it!"

It was quite the eye opener.  

Sepiatone

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9 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

Which of course would then mean it's ALL TRUE!  :rolleyes:   :D

It tickles me how these kinds of discussions quickly degenerate into "Liberals v Conservative" kind of nonsense.  And it's typically those who claim to be "conservative" that head in that direction.  And it's sad because many of those who make the claim of being "conservative" aren't really.  But just more or less "illiberal". 

And the problem I have with either camp is that once one claims to be one or the other, they then allow those philosophies to overtake their own long held personal views in order to NOT seem out of place among the others in those groups.  It's like they're lying to both themselves AND all around them.  There once was a group from some university in the late '60's (or early '70's, I forget just when) that printed the principles of the U.S. constitution and the Bill of Rights in modern day and simpler vernacular and went around taking a sort of "poll".  Asking people, "How would you feel about living in a country like THIS?"

And a surprising ( but maybe not) number of American citizens claimed they would actually HATE to live in such a country!  With comments like, "What!  A country where EVERYBODY is thought of as the SAME?  God FORBID!"  or,  "It'd NEVER last.  Nor SHOULD it!"

It was quite the eye opener.  

Sepiatone

Of course you have to use your own experience and judgment when assessing things on the

internet. Wikipedia is a good source, not perfect, no source is, but it usually gets things right

and also provides notes and further references. 

I would think that most people's long held personal views play a large part in their political

affiliations. 

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