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DAILY DOSE OF DELIGHT #2 (From Rose Marie)

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Daily Dose # 2

 

Their interaction in the first clip conveniently in the canoe provides little opportunity for physical contact. They are facing away from each other, he is paddling. Their attraction to each other is evident in their conversation and dialogue and facial expressions. The classical tone to the music actually belies the natural, casual elements to their growing relationship. In the first clip he appears more interested in the relationship and I agree the chemistry is evident and they both acted so naturally. I wasn't expecting that, having not seen a Nelson and Eddy movie before, I had some reservations which are obviously unfounded.

 

In the second clip, it is obvious that Rosemarie finds herself in an uncomfortable environment thus emphasizing the “good girl persona” also she is dressed conservatively important for the Hollywood film code. She is a riot trying to mimic the other “experienced” saloon singer. When she sees the Mountie it is evident she cares about what he thinks of her, she appears embarrassed. He projects concern rather than judgment.

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1.     What do you notice about the interaction between the characters in these two scenes? Please give specific examples.

In the first clip, Eddy seems to view women as conquests, perhaps, as is suggested with his comment about using his song more than once, as long as a woman’s name fits the tune.  This seems to be reinforced with his comment about Maude—merely one of his past women—when he says nothing worked with Maude.  His comments about MacDonald’s current love interest also suggest that he perceives her as yet another conquest, showing that he doesn’t like to lose, and usually does not?  However, MacDonald clearly has the upper hand at first in this scene, as she responds to Eddy’s questions in an emotionless manner.  But then, she seems to let her guard down as he sings his song, as she displays warm and welcoming facial reactions while he sings.  Still, it is MacDonald who sets the tone in this scene, choosing to let Eddy in only as much as she wants to invite him in.

In the second clip, MacDonald does not have the upper hand, as she is clearly out of her element in the saloon whose patrons do not appreciate her singing style or her stiff movements and who respond only to the more burlesque singing and dancing of one of the regulars.  I also noticed that Eddy is losing more of his “womanizing” mentality as the scene progresses.  He enters with two women—a sign that he has “romanced” many women—yet he focuses his attention more on MacDonald than he does on his dates, sensing and sympathizing with her discomfort and leaving when she leaves, apparently to follow her and console her?

2.     If you have seen either or both of these actors in other films or television shows, please share your perceptions about them.

Unfortunately, I have not seen any other films featuring either MacDonald or Eddy, so I am unable to response at this time.

 

3.     What do these clips tell you about the male/female relationships as they are depicted in the films during this era? What norms might you expect are supported under the Hollywood Film Code?

It seems that during this era, there was a double standard, certain expectations for both men and women (some of which still exist today, I think).  It seemed acceptable for men, at least as represented by Eddy, to objectify women, who were expected to be more submissive, nice to look at but not allowed a voice (unless they were singing or otherwise entertaining men).  This expectation makes the dynamic between Eddy and MacDonald in the first clip interesting.  Instead of falling victim to Eddy’s charms MacDonald shows an independence and a strength that is shaken only when she is trying to entertain the saloon patrons.  The dynamic between the two stars is also interesting in the second clip, when Eddy begins to view MacDonald more as a person and less as an object.  Not having seen the entire film yet, I can only speculate, but perhaps within its historical context, this film can be viewed as a “Rom-Com,” where the male lead changes his perception of his conquest, seeing her more as an equal by the “happily-ever-after” ending? 

Regarding norms under the film code, since this was a post-code film, it seems they were unable to take more chances with the song and dance number in the second clip, making it less risqué and burlesque than they could have done in a pre-code film, being force to use more “conservative” costuming in this film.

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  1. What do you notice about the interaction between the characters in these two scenes? Please give specific examples.
  2. I noticed in the first scene that even though Rose Marie is committed to someone else, she is interested in her suitor and then realizes that the Canadian Mountie uses this line on all the girls.  Adding some humor to the classical music singing.  While in the second scene the classical approach does not work at all between the two actors.  The music of the time is more appealing.  I wonder how this approach appealed to the audience of the time.  
  3. If you have seen either or both of these actors in other films or television shows, please share your perceptions about them.
  4. I am not familiar with either of them. 
  5. What do these clips tell you about the male/female relationships as they are depicted in the films during this era? What norms might you expect are supported under the Hollywood Film Code?
  6. Both characters are depicted as being "prim and proper." While in the second clip, the audience sees that the world around them is not always the same. 

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  • What do you notice about the interaction between the characters in these two scenes? Please give specific examples.
    • This is a tried and true plot line through a lot of movies, where two seemingly opposite personalities have a banter and an attraction, all while developing true feelings for one another.  It is seen time and time again in movies and shows even today!  The interaction and dialogue is much less "wholesome" than we even saw in the Judy Garland example and the people seem more realistic in many ways.  The female character is especially sympathetic in the second scene, where here discomfort and embarrassment at the situation in the bar is almost palpable!
  • If you have seen either or both of these actors in other films or television shows, please share your perceptions about them.
    • I have never seen them in other shows, but I am impressed with their acting and singing abilities!
  • What do these clips tell you about the male/female relationships as they are depicted in the films during this era? What norms might you expect are supported under the Hollywood Film Code?
    • In these two clips, the people seem as much friendly acquaintances than they do romantic interests, but there is also a level of respect and caring that develops even throughout these short scenes.  The norm of a plucky female character looking to prove herself and improve her situation is common during this time, as is the friendly and successful male character put in her path to both crash against and run to.  I enjoyed this one!

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In the first clip, the characters are more playful which indicates the start of their romance.  It appears they don’t know each other well yet but, if Sgt. Bruce has his way, that will certainly change.  His comments and questions about Rose Marie’s mysterious suitor are designed to both solicit information and to show her what she’s missing by not considering him.  The song is one way of showing off to win her affection.

In the second clip, the relationship changes.  She’s embarrassed to be caught singing in a saloon as that behavior certainly doesn’t match the image she’s been portraying - it simply isn’t her.  While listening, you can see Sgt. Bruce change.  He moves from simply chasing a pretty girl - perhaps one of many in his life - to truly caring about Rose Marie’s feelings.   At this point, the relationship has deepened for both of them; she cares about what he thinks of her and he sees her as something more than a pretty face.  The choice of songs in this clip is also interesting to me.  Dina is a light hearted song while Some of These Days is grittier.  Certainly the second song would only add to Rose Marie’s embarrassment.  It seems in direct opposition to her character and its use helped advance the plot.

The only other film I remember with Janette McDonald was “San Francisco”.   I know she made other films with Nelson Eddy, but I don’t remember seeing any of them.

Male/female relationships of this era (post-Code) were playful and flirtty - often with the man pursuing the female until she allows herself to be caught.  Women of the period were portrayed as looking for a husband first (and possibly a career second).  Men were big, strong, brave types who went after the woman they wanted in a more direct way.  

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1. There's clearly a mutual affection blossoming between the two of them, much as they're trying to conceal it under a layer of comedy. You can see it best in Jeannette MacDonald's performance during Nelson Eddy's song in the first clip; the way her facial expressions constantly shift between "Mm. Not bad." and "Uh-oh... I think I'm falling for this guy!" It's a sign of a good actor when they can convey emotions without having to utter a single word, and MacDonald really nailed it. Eddy was no slouch, either; his encouraging smile towards MacDonald when she's about to leave in the second clip shows how much he wanted her to succeed in her money-making effort. It was their strong facial performances that sold me on their attraction to each other.

2. Once again, I must admit my terrible lack of familiarity with the films and performers of this era. I do not recall seeing MacDonald in any other form of media, but I HAVE heard Eddy's voice somewhere else: a Disney short about a whale that sings in the opera! I have to say, there aren't many Italian tenors they could've picked to better portray a singing whale than Nelson Eddy. Guy's got pipes!

3. One thing I've noticed about older films, especially ones from around this period, is that the male/female dynamic almost always has the male be the strong emotional support to the female, who is never quite sure of her own abilities. MacDonald tries her best to fit in with the rowdy crowd at the saloon, but is ultimately unable to, and she runs off in despair. Eddy, who sees MacDonald for the talented singer she is, follows her to presumably make her feel better. It was always the guys who helped out the girls, and hardly the other way around. Hollywood's higher-ups were of the Y chromosome variety, so this sort of setup was inevitably common. I can name plenty of movies where the reverse is true (Singin' in the Rain & Man with the Golden Arm come to mind), but those came much later.

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Response to #1: Their facial expressions tell an entire story beyond what we are hearing and seeing in their physical movement. MacDonald's face is particularly expressive, and Eddy bounces well off of her. The second scene, towards the end - when she realizes that he has been watching her and she marches out of the saloon proudly . . . at that point, I know this film will end well for them as a couple. He really admires and "gets" her, and she, although intensely proud, knows that there is deep understanding in his heart for her. It's a great moment.

Response to #2: I've seen MacDonald in several films without Eddy, and she is her same talented self in all of the films. Her singing is peerless, and if anything, her acting sails past that done of her counterparts (I'm thinking of Smilin' Through with Brian Aherne and Gene Raymond). She's delightful. While I've seen Eddy in other films, I never quite enjoy him apart from MacDonald. 

Response to #3: To be honest, the films were formulaic in their romance development, even if the side plots interfered with the main plot. Boy meets girl, boy likes girl, girl may be persuaded to like boy, complications ensue, boy saves girl (or he thinks he does), and boy wins girl's affections forever. The formula was simple, and it worked. Personally, I like films that are fairly standard in their plots but contain surprising subplots and slight twists off to the side. I want the main plot to be standard. I'm tired after a week of work; life is difficult and often confusing; I want the movies I watch to be sane and normal, and I want them to reassure me that somewhere people lead happy, happy lives. I think that was the main expectation during the Great Depression when people went to the movies. They wanted to be entertained, not challenged in their thinking. How we live and how we think others should live are often two very different things, so sometimes what we want to see on screen is at odds with our personal lives. So, the film norms under the film code would have been much more idealistic than in real life. Let's put it that way. 

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My mother was a teenager when these films were made. Rose Marie was her favorite.  Mom would go around our house singing their songs.  I am sure see saw every one of their movies and my sister and I have seen most of them. My reflection is about why Mom loved them so much. As a teen in a poor family, I think their movies not only offered her a way to escape but touched that place in a young girl with dreams of love. Nelson Eddy always brought a strength with tender love that could give a young girl at that time the hope that a man will fall in love with her. 

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1.In the first scene it is obvious that they are very attracted to one another. Eddy/McDonald make a wonderful pair, and you can see the attraction in both scenes. They are fighting it in the canoe, and while she is in the little dive singing, you can see the flirtatious eyes and smiles coming from both of them.

 

 

2.Eddy/McDonald make a wonderful pair. Like Astaire/Rodgers, they are a match made in heaven. I really like that about films from that era; once a duo was formed, they stuck together through so many films. You will notice this with Dick Powell, Ruby Keeler and Joan Blondell. You will also see it in the Road To movies as well. Bing Crosby, Bob Hope and Dorothy Lamour worked great together. But to get back on subject- they make a wonderful duo through-out all of their movies.

 

 

3.The theme is they resist one another in the beginning, but by the end, they are in love. During the movie you will see the hesitation and resistance to be with one another, and at times you will see the woman trying her absolute hardest to not fall for the gentleman, but in the end she always does.  I do love that Hollywood adopted a code, as it keeps the movies classic and timeless. I wish that movies these days followed such codes and remained in that same timeless state.

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I have always heard about Nelson Eddy and Jeanette MacDonald, but I must confess, I haven't seen any of their films so far. I felt they really had a chemistry together. At least in those two clips, their interaction is the depiction of the classic battle of the sexes that leads most of romantic comedies from that time: women are sweet, delicate, lady-like, while men are gentlemen, womanizers. Their relationships have a magic, fairy-tale thing that lasts forever.     

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1. In the first clip you can see that he is attracted to her and is trying to get her to respond to him while she is being aloof. When he sings we see he start to show some interest, but he doesn’t because they aren’t facing each other. 

In the second clip we are seeing the good girl versus bad girl. The good girl wins because the sympathetic Mountie goes after her to help/comfort her.

2. I have seen many of their movies and have seen JM in several movies like San Francisco and Three Daring daughters without NE. I have not seen any movies with just NE. I am currently reading a biography about the two of them and there was definitely a relationship going on outside of the movies. They seem to have loved each other, but each had issues and circumstances that often kept them apart. Their movies seem to echo some of the things going on between them in life.

3. The norms that they are showing are that women need a man to help or rescue them in times of trouble. The contrast of the good girl versus bad girl when they are shown side by side in the second clip, and how the good girl is rewarded by the man leaving the saloon to help her.

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First of all, I am sorry to say that I couldn't get either clip to play on my iPad.  However, since I have seen Rose Marie many many times, I will comment.  My first comment is that you should have reversed the two clips, since the saloon scene comes first, especially for those who have not seen the movie.  Both scenes illustrate the development of their relationship.  Sgt. bBruce recognizes Marie de Flor as an opera singer right away and enjoys the humor of her trying to keep up with Gilda Gray as the shimmy dancer.  In the canoe Nelson is wooing with his voice but also adding humor with the other female names.  2.  In all of her earlier films Jeanette is able to interject humor in her character, especially the Paramount films.  I believe she does this in Naughty Marietta and Rose Marie as well.  I Rose Marie all the temperamental scenes at the beginning are done humorously and set up her character for changes when she mets Nelson and gets in the Canadian woods.  Nelson is a little more relaxed than he is often given credit for, especially in Maytime and New Moon.  A lot of Jeanette's humorous moments no longer appeared as  the 1940s approached,. 3.  Jeanette is the one who will have to do the changing for the relationship to work.  I don't think that's true of all their films, but it is of this one.  She has to give up the pretensions of a prima dons and her unconditional love for her brother.  She also has to respect Nelson's code as a Mountie.

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Interesting juxtaposition between the 'bad girl' in that tight outfit and the 'good girl' who ends up with 'her man'.  I realize that women were put into the Madonna/**** construct during these movies, it was marked during the Production code era.

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In both clips, interest between the two is obvious and in the canoe Eddy tries using comedy to try and show he is not shy and attracted. Pushing him away in Jeanette character seems to be the dialogue for the film. It’s obvious that before the code, sexism and the way it was shown was widely more dramatic and crass. 

In the saloon scene, the embarrassment shown on Janeattes face is a perfect example of the romance between the two and how sorry Eddys character feels for hers  

The studios portrayal of women’s role in society is drastically different than from even ten years later. How hard it was for any woman, regardless of class, was difficult yet acceptable by society and was often the norm surrounding the publics perspective. I sadly understand now how hard it must have been for any female in show business to be and stay accepted. 

To gloss over what was really going on during the depression was obviously a standard and driving force for most studios to try and convey life as a fantasy and how times could be pushed aside by going to the theater.  

 

 

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I can't do much justice to the insightful comments I have been reading on this subject, but I'll try my best to put down something that makes sense.

The Clips: 

Clip 1: Much innocent flirting going on between NE and JM with a dose of humor thrown in  - being the substitution of other women's names in the song; except for Maude, of course (Bea Arthur came into my mind - ha!.)  

Clip 2:  This clip made me feel very sad for JM's character.  It was obvious she was a fish out of water.  Nelson Eddy, of course, felt her pain and took the gallant route by going after her.   I was also surprised at the "floozy" - pretty sexy for the times.  

If you have seen either or both of these actors in other films or television shows, please share your perceptions about them.

I have heard of and known of Jeannette McDonald and Nelson Eddy (even saw his grave on my visit to "Hollywood Forever" cemetery. ) for years. I am familar with the songs, "Indian Love Call", "Rose Marie, I Love You" and course, "Ah, Sweet Mystery of Life".  However, until today, I had no desire to watch their movies.  I thought they would be wooden and boring.  Yet, as shown in these clips, they are anything but.  I find them delightful.  In fact, I have a movie in my collection, that I haven't watched yet - "San Francisco" with Jeannette.  I plan to invest some time viewing, and I know I will enjoy.  She, by the way, was beautiful. 

 

  What do these clips tell you about the male/female relationships as they are depicted in the films during this era? What norms might you expect are supported under the Hollywood Film Code? 

That the woman would play "hard to get" and the man was mostly the pursuer.  Most of the sexual energy was left to the imagination, which can be sexy in itself.  

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Reflection on Q3. It seems that before the 1960s, women were mostly portrayed in the movies as sinners or saints. This scene does typify this stereotype that women should either be chaste (and therefore naive and innocent and a bit square) or a vixen (and therefore streetwise and naughty and not a nice person). The men however (as shown in Nelson Eddy's character) can be both a bit worldly (he's had several girlfriends before) but also an upright man to serve as a role model (Mountie). The double standard seems to be okay with the Code. Very interesting.

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In the first scene it is all about him trying to woo her. He is being very open and upfront about it with just a hint of jealousy. Like a typical school boy he tries to outdo the Italian rival by singing to her. You can see her humor at first and then admiration at his singing but does not seem to be swayed. There is obvious chemistry between the two as they play out this little romance on the water.

If I have seen them in something I do not remember what it was.

I noticed that there was very little in the way open sexuality. It was clean and men where to be the dashing savior to the woman who has hit hard times but doing it with no expectations. I mean, he was even a Mountie, a dashing figure that saves the oppressed and brings law.  

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Here are a few discussio

  1. What do you notice about the interaction between the characters in these two scenes? Please give specific examples.
  2. Flirtation! Nelson says he doesn’t like her choice of a man. And asks what kind of a fellow is this man she’s considering. Then she finally says the inside joke, an opera tenor! Hilarious and smart writing bc  both are in real life opera singers. Then Nelson gets her back by claiming his song “Rose Marie”, works with a lot of girls names except Maude. So, like she is considering other men he has also others he might be considering. Brilliant scene and superb acting by both.
  3.  
  4. If you have seen either or both of these actors in other films or television shows, please share your perceptions about them.
  5. i’ve seen This movie but am not sure what else. However the song When I’m Calling You”, reminds me of Monty Python Lumberjack series of satirical skits and I’m pretty sure “When I’m Calling You”, is included in their Lumberjack series. My teen friends and I had fun mocking the song.
  6.  
  7. What do these clips tell you about the male/female relationships as they are depicted in the films during this era? What norms might you expect are supported under the Hollywood Film Code?
  8. Good Girl always wins.
  9. Bad girls are fun and sexy but aren’t keepers bc they’ll go with any man. Note: Rose is choosing!
  10. sympathitic men get the girl. Loud mouths don’t! Again choosing seems a theme.
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1. The thing that stands out to me the most is how connected the two actors are to each other emotionally, despite having next to no connection to each other physically or visually. In both the canoe scene and the saloon scene, neither Eddy nor MacDonald directly look at each other, yet both are so acutely aware and are intensely feeling and reacting to what the other is saying and/ or doing. The closest modern day equivalent that I can compare this sort of interaction to would be having a conversation via text or direct message, rather than face to face, or even, say, video conferencing. All you are getting from the other person is a verbal return volley from what you initially served them, but neither one of you have any idea how what kind of faces you are making as you take in the other's words. However, those emotions are fuel for the fire regarding what you ultimately type back, and it's very clear that the moment the two of you connect beyond that level, the intensity of that connection is going to instantly combust.

2. I haven't watched any of the Eddy/ MacDonald movies, but judging by the clips, I feel like I should start!

3. Post Hays Code, there is most definitely a set of standards regarding how men and women are to be portrayed, the "proper" way of how they should interact, and what either gender "should" be seeking in a mate. Men are very much in a traditionally masculine role, but any kind of ruggedness is never allowed to give way to crassness or vulgarity. Eddy is a playful, flirting Mountie way off in the untamed frontier, yet he still manages to carry an air of gentility, right down to the velvety, somehow classically trained tenor voice. While he may carouse with a saloon girl or two, there's the implicit understanding that THAT sort of woman - sexually liberated, openly confident, brash - as a long-term companion is not the endgame. While MacDonald's character has a mind of her own, her purity and innocence is instantly reflected in her singing style (no jazzy wail here ... all sweet soprano, no matter how jarring it is in the performance), and her embarrassment in being seen as vulnerable in that scene is looked on as endearing by Eddy's character; it's sweet that she's trying, and he loves her all the more for it.

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The chemistry between the two is pretty obvious especially once Nelson Eddy begins to sing. Jeannette MacDonald seems to have quite a comedic side playing coy to and they play well off each other. 

I’ve never seen their movies before but just watching these clips I’m interested. 

I think the scenes between the main characters were much more subdued, more romantic and caring than before. 

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The interaction between Eddy and MacDonald prove how courtship during the Production Code era did not want blunt emotions. Preferring the subtle glances and playful teasing. On the canoe, MacDonald mocks Eddy's tune as being able to fit to any girl's name. The subtle glances during the saloon scene show how MacDonald is reluctant to show interest in Eddy but can't help but care. Care about her way of singing and being apart of the community. The Production Code wanted silent looks and understatements be part of courtship. The audience therefore felt that subtlety was important when it came to courtship. The Production Code did not want to encourage people showing their emotions and feelings physically. The main goal was to keep everything as pure as they could.  

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I love that her reaction to him in the first scene is so like most woman when being hit on by a man...eye rolls, snippy comebacks and so not impressed! :) I love her. He's trying to be friendly and funny which is charming. She obviously has something else on her mind and is distracted and is honestly like "get a hint" I'm just not that into you! But just like most women if the man can sing we melt a little. 

The second clip is her being uncomfortable and anxious. She does a great job of portraying that. The other woman reminds me of Mae West, just putting it all out there for whoever wants to look. Where as the other character probably has on at least 4 layers of clothes and is very modest.

Yes, I spoke in general terms about women...don't make it awkward. -Brandy

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In the two scenes, the two characters seem “distanced” from each other, although they are attracted to one another. In the canoe scene, MacDonald keeps her back to Eddy and seems shy at first, but when he starts to sing, she smiles and acknowledges it and mocks him. She keeps his back to him a lot, and both of the characters do not make lots of eye contact. Eddy tries to get the female character out of her shell by singing and tries to let her know he wants her attraction too. In the second scene, the female character is nervous about singing in front of all the people and seems to want to leave.

in the two scenes, there is no “over the top” advances that the two characters make physically and the code seems to follow good courtship, as the man is pursuing the woman. The norm of the production code is making sure that the two characters are not going too far as to what they are doing in the two scenes.

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  1. What do you notice about the interaction between the characters in these two scenes? Please give specific examples.
  2. If you have seen either or both of these actors in other films or television shows, please share your perceptions about them.
  3. What do these clips tell you about the male/female relationships as they are depicted in the films during this era? What norms might you expect are supported under the Hollywood Film Code?

1-The interaction between the two characters is quite different in each scene shown, however there is a commonality there. In the first canoe scene, MacDonald seems to be in power, she has her back to Eddy and is being taken to her destination by him, she never turns to look at him and never shows any sign of amusement or affection from his song, the audience gets to see that, he does not, she does not throw him a single crumb of interest. That said, he has strength and bravado and seems to not care whether she likes it or not, he has the confidence to know she does like it, whether or not she shows it. In the next scene, she is clearly most affected by doubt and nerves when she notices he is there, he has won her affection and this moment is the proof, if she didn't like him, she wouldn't care. She was far less affected when he wasn't there. She is also directly compared to the brazen and more overtly sexual woman, she knows Eddy came in with her, she assumes that is what he wants in a companion and she can't compete.

2-I have always felt that this screen pairing were the operatic version of Fred and Ginger, although it is no contest for me that Astaire and Rogers have way more attraction and appeal in their films. I have always found Eddy and MacDonald just a little dry, a bit lacking in hitting "all the feels" as they say. But I do see the appeal and why they were popular, there is an old fashioned romance to them, a clean and wholesome representation of "classy love"

3-Although they do give MacDonald some upper hand power here and there, it is ultimately fleeting, the mountie character holds more power, his feelings are what affect her, not the other way around. A canoe is the safest and most un-sexual vehicle they could have given the duo, no facing one another, space between them, so no touching, and no chance of moving an inch without flipping, a brilliant code transportation device. They have made MacDonald prim and proper, which in the bar scene reads as a negative, she is a prude, uptight, not with the times, dressed chin to ankle, as covered as possible. No man ogles her or tries to come onto her, she is literally untouchable. 

 

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The second clip was hard to watch.  Her uncomfortable feelings were definitely passed on to me.  A tribute to great acting. 

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