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jimmymac71

Do Movies Still Use 10-Second pre-roll markers?

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I have not been in a movie theater in years, or watched a new film. Are those 10 second markers to change projects still used?

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47 minutes ago, jimmymac71 said:

I have not been in a movie theater in years, or watched a new film. Are those 10 second markers to change projects still used?

Do you mean changing different rolls of film? If so, no, since the vast majority of theaters don't use film projectors any longer, but rather digital projectors that use what look like computer hard drives that contain the movie.

This person is holding the type of drive that theaters receive that contain a movie:

DCP_package.jpg

Some digital theaters also have cable internet hook-ups to download the movie, which is then stored for the duration of the run, after which it is deleted.

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I so dislike digital. I am a true blue analog fan, and it all but sickens me to learn movies are on hard drives. I already knew records and tape are history in the radio business. My eyes and ears are not digital friendly. I suspect some people haven't noticed the little circles in the right corners of movies on TCM.

I stand corrected. They are not 10 seconds apart.

https://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/big-screen/2011/jun/01/projectionists-take-their-cues-from-marks/#

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3 minutes ago, jimmymac71 said:

I so dislike digital. I am a true blue analog fan, and it all but sickens me to learn movies are on hard drives. I already knew records and tape are history in the radio business. My eyes and ears are not digital friendly. I suspect some people haven't noticed the little circles in the right corners of movies on TCM.

I stand corrected. They are not 10 seconds apart.

https://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/big-screen/2011/jun/01/projectionists-take-their-cues-from-marks/#

You do know that everything you see on TCM is digital, right?

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2 hours ago, LawrenceA said:

You do know that everything you see on TCM is digital, right?

I have numerous issues with digital TV that others may not. I also have a low cost flat screen TV. Errors in digital TV or computers, jumps right out in front of me. There is plenty of video noise during a night scene, which my eyes can't blank out. TCM is the worst for not leveling audio. I worked in analog FM radio, and know what a limiter/compressor looks like and how it works.

I do know radio is digital all the way to transmitter, which is still analog over the air. My eyes and ears struggle to adjust with digital, but it is what it is. I could enjoy TCM much better with a CRT TV.

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Here's a nice self-documentary of a movie theater that converted from film projectors to digital projectors.  You will will probably learn more about digital projectors than you ever wanted to know, or knew to ask.

 

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On 6/30/2018 at 4:39 PM, MovieCollectorOH said:

Here's a nice self-documentary of a movie theater that converted from film projectors to digital projectors.  You will will probably learn more about digital projectors than you ever wanted to know, or knew to ask.

 

I jumped around through the video trying to see what the equipment looked like. Didn't work well, but I sort of get the picture. Pun intended. HAR! I am now curious about TCM. How does digital work with them? The resolution is either 720p or 1080i, right? My bigger question now is, what exactly is the TCM library? Is it a physical library or just film rights? In a different thread, TopBilled explained what Turner owns. Thousands of titles.

I have not been inside a TV studio. I have worked in AM and FM, back in the days of records and tapes, but not CDs.

In other research, sounds like converting a movie theater to digital is costly and the equipment maintenance is crazy expensive too. I have previous experience with film projectors in school. Guess that doesn't look good on a resume anymore.

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15 hours ago, jimmymac71 said:

I jumped around through the video trying to see what the equipment looked like. Didn't work well, but I sort of get the picture. Pun intended. HAR! I am now curious about TCM. How does digital work with them? The resolution is either 720p or 1080i, right? My bigger question now is, what exactly is the TCM library? Is it a physical library or just film rights? In a different thread, TopBilled explained what Turner owns. Thousands of titles.

I have not been inside a TV studio. I have worked in AM and FM, back in the days of records and tapes, but not CDs.

In other research, sounds like converting a movie theater to digital is costly and the equipment maintenance is crazy expensive too. I have previous experience with film projectors in school. Guess that doesn't look good on a resume anymore.

A lot of technical inquiries here.  I'll try to cover them and keep it simple.

720p and 1080i are just commonly used HD broadcast resolutions used these days.  There is also 1080p, which has a higher bandwidth requirement than either of those, and is therefore only used with Blu-Ray and some forms of streaming.

There are minor differences between 1080i and 720p.  Some people can tell the difference and others can't.  1080i has better detail, and 720p has smoother motion.  For more on this, look up the difference between "interlaced" versus "progressive" display.

TCM is natively broadcast at 1080i.  They don't actually show films, the films are all in storage.  There are facilities which have large computers that have these movies stored in digital format.  Whenever they show a movie, it unceremoniously originates from one of these broadcast facilities.

The TCM library includes most of, but is not limited to these acquisitions (though there are still some rights issues within these properties):
MGM
RKO
Warner Bros
First National
Vitaphone
United Artists
Goldwyn
Monogram
Associated Artists
Hanna-Barbera
Castle Rock
New Line Cinema
Turner
Allied Artists
Rankin/Bass
Lorimar
Ruby-Spears
Fleischer Studios
Famous Studios

 

Digital cinema is a cheap way to approximate the "analog" content on film (or digital audio is a cheap way to approximate the "analog" content on records or tapes).  The main thing to know here is that we as humans perceive everything in the analog domain ("analogous" or 1:1 representation).  The way it is stored, delivered, and reproduced though has changed from analog to digital (numbers), mainly for the sake of conveniece and economy of scale.  For instance, that makes DVRs possible that can store hundreds of shows all at once.

Rather than store everything as direct images or direct sound recordings, it is first converted into numbers, then those numbers are more easily stored or moved around.  That takes up much less space, is cheaper to duplicate, and faster to access.  When needed, the digitally stored content is converted back into the analog domain, so it can be seen or heard. 

In the case of a flat panel HD TV, that happens all the way at the end of the process - at the screen itself.  The LCD panel, for instance, has a digital-to-analog convertor chip that converts digital (numeric) input to a matrix of visible pixels of light (analog).  The end result is that you see an "approximated" version of what you would otherwise see using an all-analog signal chain.

Similar for the audio.  There is a digital-to-analog convertor which converts digital audio to analog audio, which then goes through an audio amplifier and then out to the speakers.

In many cases, consumer digital video approaches the quality of studio monitors used in the production environment, previously unattainable to the average consumer.  The improvement in quality would be another "economy of scale" benefit from the conversion to digital.

 

In the case of over-the-air broadcast TV, UHF transmitters like these are used to transmit digital TV.  (This company has been making transmitters for almost 100 years)  The tall narrow cabinets in the pictures are full sized equipment racks - these go into a shed underneath the transmitter tower or as close as possible:

UHF TV transmitters (now used for digital TV)
http://www.gatesair.com/products/transmit-tv/uhf-transmitters

FM transmitters
http://www.gatesair.com/products/transmit-radio/fm-transmitters

AM transmitters
http://www.gatesair.com/products/transmit-radio/am-transmitters

Multimedia timeline page for big US transmitter manufacturer
http://info.gatesair.com/celebrate-95-years-with-gatesair

 

 

P.S. The difference between the CRT you like and the flat-screen LCD TV which bothers you might be due to the differences in way light is handled between the two.  The CRT has a mask which blocks light, and therefore you only see light coming from the luminesient phosphors themselves.  An LCD on the other hand has a backlight which is always on.  That diminishes the contrast on less expensive LCD TVs.  A higher quality LCD TV might handle this more acceptably for you.  The only way to tell is to go to a TV showroom and walk around and compare them to see if it makes any difference to you.

Also there are some newer options out there whose technology behaves more like the phosphors in a CRT,  "OLED" TVs, which don't use a backlight at all.  Unfortunately they are prohibitively expensive for many.

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18 hours ago, MovieCollectorOH said:

A lot of technical inquiries here.  I'll try to cover them and keep it simple.

720p and 1080i are just commonly used HD broadcast resolutions used these days.  There is also 1080p, which has a higher bandwidth requirement than either of those, and is therefore only used with Blu-Ray and some forms of streaming.

There are minor differences between 1080i and 720p.  Some people can tell the difference and others can't.  1080i has better detail, and 720p has smoother motion.  For more on this, look up the difference between "interlaced" versus "progressive" display.

TCM is natively broadcast at 1080i.  They don't actually show films, the films are all in storage.  There are facilities which have large computers that have these movies stored in digital format.  Whenever they show a movie, it unceremoniously originates from one of these broadcast facilities.

The TCM library includes most of, but is not limited to these acquisitions (though there are still some rights issues within these properties):
MGM
RKO
Warner Bros
First National
Vitaphone
United Artists
Goldwyn
Monogram
Associated Artists
Hanna-Barbera
Castle Rock
New Line Cinema
Turner
Allied Artists
Rankin/Bass
Lorimar
Ruby-Spears
Fleischer Studios
Famous Studios

 

Digital cinema is a cheap way to approximate the "analog" content on film (or digital audio is a cheap way to approximate the "analog" content on records or tapes).  The main thing to know here is that we as humans perceive everything in the analog domain ("analogous" or 1:1 representation).  The way it is stored, delivered, and reproduced though has changed from analog to digital (numbers), mainly for the sake of conveniece and economy of scale.  For instance, that makes DVRs possible that can store hundreds of shows all at once.

Rather than store everything as direct images or direct sound recordings, it is first converted into numbers, then those numbers are more easily stored or moved around.  That takes up much less space, is cheaper to duplicate, and faster to access.  When needed, the digitally stored content is converted back into the analog domain, so it can be seen or heard. 

In the case of a flat panel HD TV, that happens all the way at the end of the process - at the screen itself.  The LCD panel, for instance, has a digital-to-analog convertor chip that converts digital (numeric) input to a matrix of visible pixels of light (analog).  The end result is that you see an "approximated" version of what you would otherwise see using an all-analog signal chain.

Similar for the audio.  There is a digital-to-analog convertor which converts digital audio to analog audio, which then goes through an audio amplifier and then out to the speakers.

In many cases, consumer digital video approaches the quality of studio monitors used in the production environment, previously unattainable to the average consumer.  The improvement in quality would be another "economy of scale" benefit from the conversion to digital.

 

In the case of over-the-air broadcast TV, UHF transmitters like these are used to transmit digital TV.  (This company has been making transmitters for almost 100 years)  The tall narrow cabinets in the pictures are full sized equipment racks - these go into a shed underneath the transmitter tower or as close as possible:

UHF TV transmitters (now used for digital TV)
http://www.gatesair.com/products/transmit-tv/uhf-transmitters

FM transmitters
http://www.gatesair.com/products/transmit-radio/fm-transmitters

AM transmitters
http://www.gatesair.com/products/transmit-radio/am-transmitters

Multimedia timeline page for big US transmitter manufacturer
http://info.gatesair.com/celebrate-95-years-with-gatesair

 

 

P.S. The difference between the CRT you like and the flat-screen LCD TV which bothers you might be due to the differences in way light is handled between the two.  The CRT has a mask which blocks light, and therefore you only see light coming from the luminesient phosphors themselves.  An LCD on the other hand has a backlight which is always on.  That diminishes the contrast on less expensive LCD TVs.  A higher quality LCD TV might handle this more acceptably for you.  The only way to tell is to go to a TV showroom and walk around and compare them to see if it makes any difference to you.

Also there are some newer options out there whose technology behaves more like the phosphors in a CRT,  "OLED" TVs, which don't use a backlight at all.  Unfortunately they are prohibitively expensive for many.

THANK YOU! Very nice. Love the Gates photos. I didn't experience radio until the 70s, but the station did have old Russco turntables. The console had big round knobs. They were 5KW day, and 1KW at night, so you probably know I'm talking AM. They would actually switch power by switching transmitters. The older 1KW 'tranny' was in the studio and you could see the massive tube glowing away inside.

I kinda sorta understand what you have explained, if nothing else, I relate to analog. I know how interlaced worked in analog TV, for example.

Our CRT TV died a while back, and we got a 39 inch flat screen. It works, but nothing fancy. I believe there are many extras to make modern TV better, and they all cost more.

I am not familiar with satellite TV. Always had cable. First thing we had to do was upgrade the cable service to HD. When I converted from CRT to flat screen computing, I was made instantly aware my eyesight would not allow me to alter the native resolution. That may hold true for others, and could explain why SD looks terrible.

We have a Blu-ray player and it may up-convert. My eyesight cannot really tell the difference between DVD and Blu-ray.

I do hope digital movies are not compressed. That is one of the issues my eyes notice. Some people claim over-the-air TV is wonderful as it doesn't get compressed.

I certainly am learning from this message board. Thanks again!

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I'm one of "those people" who when watching black & white movies projected digitally, see "rainbow trails".
It's an odd phenomenon that has something to do with the contrast. Remember how some fabric patterns would "buzz" or "moire" on early TV? Well that's what it looks like to my eyes-except in rainbow colors!

Most people see "pixilation" on digital film, especially in the black areas....but the trailing rainbows is super annoying. Hate it.

Film's numeric countdown queue has been replaced by the digital hourglass signifying "please wait while downloading". Meh.

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6 hours ago, TikiSoo said:

I'm one of "those people" who when watching black & white movies projected digitally, see "rainbow trails".
It's an odd phenomenon that has something to do with the contrast. Remember how some fabric patterns would "buzz" or "moire" on early TV? Well that's what it looks like to my eyes-except in rainbow colors!

Most people see "pixilation" on digital film, especially in the black areas....but the trailing rainbows is super annoying. Hate it.

Film's numeric countdown queue has been replaced by the digital hourglass signifying "please wait while downloading". Meh.

I have learned many things about my eyesight, but some stuff is still a mystery. I do remember the sparkling on TV. Also remember the way light would trail on TV. Back when I was in high school, we had a homecoming parade on the school running track. Someone had the camera on the car headlights, and our electronics instructor came unglued. That had to do with the plumbicon tube in the camera. The light could burn the tube out quickly.

Some of the reasons for background noise on LED TVs is the technology itself. It can also come from digital compression, which cable and satellite companies use. Just like MP3 files, compression is used and can alter the end result, for the worse. Be it audio or video, some of us can bypass the impact in our minds. Some cannot.

So, TikiSoo, does an optometrist know of your condition? When I was young, my optometrist didn't know exactly what was up with my eyesight. Call it 1967. I was 10. He was still working with my some 20 years later. By then he did know most of my conditions.

I would like to think there is a remedy. Maybe polarized or tinted glasses. As a child, my mom had prisms in her glasses.

While watching Yankee Doodle Dandy yesterday, I was thinking it might look good colorized.

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On 7/5/2018 at 7:36 AM, TikiSoo said:

I'm one of "those people" who when watching black & white movies projected digitally, see "rainbow trails".
It's an odd phenomenon that has something to do with the contrast. Remember how some fabric patterns would "buzz" or "moire" on early TV? Well that's what it looks like to my eyes-except in rainbow colors!

Most people see "pixilation" on digital film, especially in the black areas....but the trailing rainbows is super annoying. Hate it.

Film's numeric countdown queue has been replaced by the digital hourglass signifying "please wait while downloading". Meh.

Do you see this on flat panel TVs, digital cinema, or both?

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MCOH asked Do you see this on flat panel TVs, digital cinema, or both?

This does not happen when watching a TV. I only see this when watching digital PROJECTION, like in a cinema. It's diminished the further away I'm seated, although still there.
Estimated one in 10,000 people have this, lucky me. I'd guess more people may have the condition, just not too many people watch old B&W movies projected onto a screen every week, like I do.

I finally know what dropping acid looks like, "Ah the rainbows!" and have learned to tolerate it.
Also remember- my eyes have particularly sensitive "cones" (I'm a colorist/painter) and had a serious head injury about 6-7 years ago that adversely effected my eyesight.

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14 hours ago, TikiSoo said:

MCOH asked Do you see this on flat panel TVs, digital cinema, or both?

This does not happen when watching a TV. I only see this when watching digital PROJECTION, like in a cinema. It's diminished the further away I'm seated, although still there.
Estimated one in 10,000 people have this, lucky me. I'd guess more people may have the condition, just not too many people watch old B&W movies projected onto a screen every week, like I do.

I finally know what dropping acid looks like, "Ah the rainbows!" and have learned to tolerate it.
Also remember- my eyes have particularly sensitive "cones" (I'm a colorist/painter) and had a serious head injury about 6-7 years ago that adversely effected my eyesight.

I suspected you were seeing something that was not perfectly aligned.

Possibly the color alignment is off by just a small amount in the theaters.  During the installation process there is a step with the digital projector where they put colored crosshairs up on the screen, one for each color.  The installer then adjusts the fine settings on the projector to line them all up, so they are all superimposed on top of each other.  I suspect that if they are off, even by a very small amount, then it is just more obvious to you.

Maybe the alignment wasn't perfect to begin with, maybe it drifted over time, or maybe it is too fine an adjustment to make (ie. beyond the spec of the projector).  Regardless, if you can see it, it's still something that can be considered tangible.

As an aside, I do notice something similar with my old CRT TV at home.  It happens on B&W movies with detailed herringbone patterns, such as close-ups of print on a blouse or dress shirt.  On a CRT the colored light-producing phosphor elements are actually spaced apart by a very tiny amount for each of the three different colors, forming a subtle pattern of its own.  You can see this if you put your head right up to the screen.  When the two different patterns superimpose or converge (color pixel separation versus random herringbone pattern on image), I sometimes see anomalies like this.  It is not that rare for me in that scenario.

220px-Pixel_geometry_01_Pengo.jpg

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I use to be able to lower the default resolution on my good old CRT computer screen, to make everything larger. That came to an end with flat screen computing. I cannot use zoom or magnification on a computer screen without it getting all fuzzy. I can make the DPI (dots per inch) higher with MS Windows. All of life is gently out of focus. Some of it is my eyes, while most of it is my brain.

I too, deal with it. I am sorry you are having to sacrifice something you must truly love. I don't exactly love old movies, I just don't care for anything new. Same goes for music.

So, TikiSoo, I hope the overall situation gets a chance to improve. Do not understand rods and cones. I was told, at UC Berkeley, I have 20/20 vision, I just can't use it. I have retrained my mind to get by without my eye glasses, unless I am outside and in better need of distance vision. I was told it can't be done, but I have.

I will hold thumbs, very Afrikaans, for you to improve.

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