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MovieMadness

For first time, Columbus will not observe Columbus Day, its namesake holiday

45 posts in this topic

8 hours ago, Stephan55 said:

I say, if Italian-Americans wish to celebrate a mass genocidal murderer, then why not advocate for a "Mussolini" or "Julius Caesar Day."
Or better still, how about someone truly inspirational and celebrate a "Leonardo da Vinci" or  "Michelangelo Day."
As for me, I am an advocate of  "Leif Erikson Day" (which happens to be today, BTW) :D

Yeah or maybe Al Capone Day.

220px-Al_Capone_in_1930.jpg

 

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10 hours ago, Stephan55 said:

"... a spokesperson for the mayor's office said the decision was not spurred by movements to replace Columbus Day with Indigenous Peoples Day, a counter-celebration held on the same day to commemorate Native Americans.

Critics say the holiday honors the mass genocide and colonization of Native Americans, who lived in the Americas long before Christopher Columbus arrived in October 1492, while Italian-American organizations say the movement comes at the expense of a time to celebrate their ethnic heritage... The city, however, lacks the funding to give its 8,500 employees both Veterans Day and Columbus Day off, said Robin Davis, a spokesperson for Mayor Andrew Ginther. "

Of course the mayor's spokesperson (Robin Davis) was lying in the statement that it was apolitical and based on fiscal priorities. As we all know the only currently truthful spokesperson is Sarah Elizabeth Huckabee Sanders, who is never influenced by political correctness.  :rolleyes:

I say, if Italian-Americans wish to celebrate a mass genocidal murderer, then why not advocate for a "Mussolini" or "Julius Caesar Day."
Or better still, how about someone truly inspirational and celebrate a "Leonardo da Vinci" or  "Michelangelo Day."
As for me, I am an advocate of  "Leif Erikson Day" (which happens to be today, BTW) :D

The Ides of March I guess could be called Julius Caesar Day.since he was murdered on that date.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-ides-of-march-julius-caesar-is-murdered

Observed it by going to Little Caesar's every March 15th.

spear-caesar-2.jpg

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On 10/9/2018 at 10:44 PM, Vautrin said:
On 10/9/2018 at 8:36 PM, NipkowDisc said:

 

:)

Related image

Take a hundred or so of the natives and put 'em in the hold of the ship. If they

die on the way back, tough luck. And yeah, make sure to baptize them first.


Throughout human history All races have practiced slavery. It still occurs today in one form or another.
In today's mindset it only appears to reach a particularly "heinous" status when either the slavers or those enslaved are "the other"... (from a different race).

When Columbus first arrived in the West "Indies" the Caribbean islands were well populated with indigenous people. When the limited supply of gold was exhausted the natives were put to work as slaves upon the new Spanish sugar plantations. European disease and unaccustomed servitude rapidly diminished their numbers.
African tribes had been enslaving each other for generations. There were hardy slaves to spare, on the West African coast, so an intercontinental slave trade was begun to replace the Indians which were no more.

When Europeans first began colonizing North America they brought their indentured servants and slaves along with them. For some it was a way to work off their indenturement and perhaps end up with a little land of their own. For others there would never be any respite. 
In the early days, there were even a few blacks who were prosperous slave holders in both the southern and northern English colonies. That practice survived into the early 19th century. 
In the deep south, some native American tribes did their best to emulate the rising dominant European culture. They dressed like Europeans, built homes like Europeans, adopted a written language like Europeans. And they owned slaves like Europeans... slaves of all races.
They were known as the Five "Civilized" Tribes (the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Muscogee, and Seminole)
Sadly they became too successful and envious whites became jealous and coveted their fertile land.
It took a President like the hero of the 1814-15 "Battle of New Orleans" to make them all non-persons, unworthy of owning, or even living upon the land they were born in. Past treaties were revoked and indigenous native autonomy was dissolved by an act of congress (the "Indian Removal Act of 1830").  One by one each of the tribes, along with their mixed race and black slaves (white slaves were liberated), were sent on a forced march at gunpoint along a "trail of tears" to a distant, less fertile land further west designated as "Indian Territory." En route exposure, starvation, and disease took its toll, with upwards to half of their numbers perishing along the way.  

Geography, climate, and religious influence differed between northern and southern states.
As the colder north gradually became more industrialized, with larger urban centers.
Immigrants and laborers resented slaves as their presence among employers drove wages down. One by one states in the north eventually abolished ownership of slaves, the last being New York in 1841.
In the south the agrarian lifestyle dominated. Eli Whitney invented his cotton gin in 1793. The gin took the manual labor out of separating seed from fiber which made cotton a prosperous commodity. But growing, and picking cotton was still very labor intensive, so to make it more profitable an abundance of cheap labor was required. Freeman wages cut into profits. Indentured servants would eventually be freed from their contract, and often were provided a plot of land and some sustenance for their tenure. If an indentured white ran out on their contract, in the north they more easily blended into a growing immigrant and urban population, making recovery more costly. Slaves had to be maintained, but could be kept in servitude for life. Black freemen were far fewer in the north, so by virtue of color, a runaway black slave would more easily stand-out.
In an era of man-power and horse power, slavery was the cheapest and most efficient form of synchronized manual labor. It was a simple matter of economics and the Bible and society condoned and legitimized it.
So the south clung to slavery and as their privileged plantations grew, and cotton became "king" of their economy, the southern states joined the African slave trade.

Interestingly, just seven years after Thomas Jefferson wrote
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..."
And four years before the U.S. Constitution was ratified, and while the branded "tyrant" King George III still sat upon the throne of England, in 1783, an anti-slavery movement to abolish the slave trade throughout the Empire had already begun in Britain.
Over the course of a few decades (beginning with Canada in 1793) British parliament passed a series of acts that strove to meet that objective. By 1811 (with few exceptions) slave trading was officially a criminal act throughout most the Empire.
In 1808, the Royal Navy established a squadron of warships whose mission was to suppress the Atlantic slave trade by patrolling the West coast of Africa. By 1860, the West Africa Squadron had captured 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans. Most were resettled in Jamaica and the Bahamas. Britain also used its powerful influence to coerce other countries to agree to treaties to end their slave trade and allow the Royal Navy to seize any violating ships.
Although these actions did suppress the slave trade, they did not stop it entirely. And though these acts outlawed the slave trade, slavery itself still remained legal throughout much of the Empire until 1833 (with exceptions and exclusions provided to territories under the control and administration of the East India Company, through to 1843.)

What this process did to the American slave trade was force it's slavers to run the British West African gauntlet, and to turn ever more to the Caribbean when bringing outside slaves into the south. It also encouraged plantations to "grow their own stock" of replenishment slaves, sparing them the additional outside procurement costs.
However, as more and more mixed race mulatto slaves "contaminated" the stock, the more valued "pure" West African Mandingo slaves became, as they were believed to possess greater strength, stamina and endurance, important traits for field slaves.

Despite several compromises among the American states, it would take a Civil War before all American slaves were officially emancipated by the 13th Amendment in December 1865.

In the beginning of the "United" States only white male U.S. citizens of property were allowed the right to vote (so long as they weren't a Catholic, a Jew, or a Quaker). Also excluded were Native Americans, Women (who were considered chattel), and slaves (who were also determined to be "property" without any rights, and therefore denied the right to vote, despite what Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence.)

The U.S. Congress ratified the 15th Amendment in February 1870, granting suffrage to former (male) slaves and all (male) persons of color by "prohibiting the denial of the right to vote based on race, color or previous condition of servitude."

Congress ratified the 19th Amendment in August 1920, granting women the same suffrage rights as men, by "prohibiting the denial of the right to vote based on sex."   

On January 23, 1964, Congress finally closed a voting loophole long used in southern states to deny poor minorities the right to vote, by ratifying the 24th Amendment which "prohibits the revocation of voting rights due to the non-payment of a poll tax or any other tax."   

And while many of us youngsters were serving in the jungles of Vietnam and other hostile places, Congress set an unheard of precedent by speedily ratifying the 26th Amendment, lowering the voting age of U.S. citizens from 21, to 18 years, in a mere 3 months and 8 days, from the time of submission to ratification (March 23, 1971-July 1, 1971). For the first time in U.S. history someone young enough to be drafted and sent to war, was now also old enough to vote for or against the people responsible for sending them into war!

Back to those progressive "loony" Brits, that we were so anxious to distance ourselves from in 1776, over the pretense of an unjust pittance of a "tea tax" to help reimburse the "motherland" for defending the colonies during the "Seven Years War" (aka "French and Indian War").

Regarding the British lead in the abolishment of slavery throughout their Empire.
The power and influence of the East India Company over Parliament made their territories the exception to the rule until 1843 (10 years after everyone else was supposed to comply).
Although cases of clandestine slave-trading continued within the British Empire after the East India loophole was closed, it became universally prosecutable as a criminal act against English law.

The anti-slavery movement began in Britain as a citizen movement in 1783. It later became officially known as the "Anti-Slavery Society" and continued to exert pressure on parliament throughout the early 19th century. A successor organization, the "British and Foreign Anti-Slavery Society," began in 1839 and worked to outlaw slavery worldwide. It is the world's oldest continuously functioning international human rights organization, and continues today as "Anti-Slavery International."

After the loss of the American colonies in 1783, the British Government sent a fleet of ships to establish a penal colony in New South Wales, Australia. Unwelcome in England, the former prisoners of which became the first colonists in that far and distant land.

"Black-birding," a term which came into common usage during the early 19th century, is the practice of enslaving someone (usually of color) by force and deception as well as the holding of indigenous workers' pay "in trust." This illegal practice continued in some parts of Australia well into the 1970s. And persists around the globe to this day.

Errol Flynn stated in two of his autobiographical books ("My Wicked,Wicked Ways" (1959) & "Beam Ends" (1937)) that as a young man (and well before he became a screen idol) he actively engaged in the practice of "Black-birding" indigenous natives from New Guinea to provide "cheap" labor for the sugar plantations in Queensland, Australia.  It was during this period of time that Flynn most likely became infected with malaria, and possibly tuberculosis as well. These diseases (among others) prevented him from being accepted into military service during WW2, and no doubt contributed to his cavalier attitude regarding grabbing as much of life's experiences as fast as he could, believing his longevity would be short.

Slavery, in one form or another, as been a sad part of human history since the beginning. It is no respecter of race or gender.
Though most nations of today's world have declared that they officially condemn institutionalized slavery, "Modern slavery," both in the form of human trafficking and imprisonment for forced labor, continues (to a greater or lesser extent) on every continent (except Antarctica), and in every country, to this day.
 

A few quick links for reference

http://slavenorth.com/nyemancip.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States#Black_slaveholders  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833

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Re: Slavery, in one form or another, as been a sad part of human history since the beginning. It is no respecter of race or gender.
"Modern slavery," both in the form of human trafficking and imprisonment for forced labor, continues (to a greater or lesser extent) on every continent, in every country, to this day.

 

To one (other) poster WE were the only one's to ever had it and have to keep REMINDING us as if our schools never taught history.

Some even wants the insane idea of compensation for something that never happened to them or their parents (even grandparents).  FREE MEAL TICKET!!!

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1 hour ago, hamradio said:

Re: Slavery, in one form or another, as been a sad part of human history since the beginning. It is no respecter of race or gender.
"Modern slavery," both in the form of human trafficking and imprisonment for forced labor, continues (to a greater or lesser extent) on every continent, in every country, to this day.

 

To one (other) poster WE were the only one's to ever had it and have to keep REMINDING us as if our schools never taught history.

Some even wants the insane idea of compensation for something that never happened to them or their parents (even grandparents).  FREE MEAL TICKET!!!

Jim Crow

 Institutionalized racism

Lynchings

Violent, brutal white supremacist hate crimes

Racist Society

Racist discrimination from Cradle to the Grave in every aspect of the American society

Racist police brutality

And segregation

The results of American slavery are unique to the United States and still with us today.

 

 If these realities don't exist, then would you gladly be the first white man who would like to willingly change places with a black man today in America for the rest of your life?

If the racist results of slavery are still not with us-- then there'd be no problem in becoming James Whitmore in "Black Like Me" for good.

 

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9 hours ago, Hibi said:

Does that mean DUMP too?

I don't know, what does DUMP mean? :huh:

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8 hours ago, Princess of Tap said:

Jim Crow

 Institutionalized racism

Lynchings

Violent, brutal white supremacist hate crimes

Racist Society

Racist discrimination from Cradle to the Grave in every aspect of the American society

Racist police brutality

And segregation

The results of American slavery are unique to the United States and still with us today.

We just had Obama be President for 8 years, and he did little but play golf for 333 days. If it like you say it is, then he should have done something about it. Instead he did nothing.

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11 hours ago, Hibi said:

Does that mean DUMP too?

No, I think in time He will have a special holiday, something along the lines of say of a National Clean Out Your Cesspool Day. 

 

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6 hours ago, cigarjoe said:
17 hours ago, Hibi said:

Does that mean DUMP too?

No, I think in time He will have a special holiday, something along the lines of say of a National Clean Out Your Cesspool Day. 

Okay, I get it DUMP=TWUMP= .....
Hard to keep up with all of these descriptive acronyms. :rolleyes:

17 hours ago, hamradio said:

Re: Slavery, in one form or another, as been a sad part of human history since the beginning. It is no respecter of race or gender.
"Modern slavery," both in the form of human trafficking and imprisonment for forced labor, continues (to a greater or lesser extent) on every continent, in every country, to this day.

 

To one (other) poster WE were the only one's to ever had it and have to keep REMINDING us as if our schools never taught history.

Some even wants the insane idea of compensation for something that never happened to them or their parents (even grandparents).  FREE MEAL TICKET!!!


Sadly when i was a kid, U.S. and world history, was not presented as "completely" and unbiased as it maybe should have.
Many facts were overlooked, especially if they reflected the "other" side.
I am aware that is still too often the case in our elementary and high schools as well as within many of our "higher" institutions of "learning."
Of course every society has it's biases, so this is not just a U.S. thing. Which reinforces all the more the importance of teaching our young people essential critical thinking skills, so that they can know not only how to read, but "how to better discern and think for themselves," as opposed to "what others say they should think."


I once worked with a gentleman who was incarcerated with his folks during WW2, simply because they were Japanese Americans.
During the 70's there was a movement for some sort of remunerative compensation for any internment survivors of that dark period. The government was doing it's best (as usual in such cases) of dragging it's feet, putting off doing the "right thing" in the hope that the numbers of those survivors and associated cost of any "settlement" would go down with each passing year.
Since the government pays "it's" debts by taxation of it's citizens, there was the usual pro-con debates.
My personal feelings were that since he had been unjustly imprisoned (along with his parents) and they suffered the loss of their livelihood and property at that time, that financial remuneration (no matter how insufficient) along with an apology (no matter how insincere) was the very least that the U.S. government should do.

Of course no one can replace a life unjustly taken, and it is perhaps morally impossible to translate a "dollar" figure into the value of a human life (though lawyers, insurance companies and our courts attempt to do so with some arbitrary numbers all the time).

However, I am also a pragmatist and realize that our countries list of offenses (both domestic and abroad) is so long and wide, that it is fiscally impossible to attempt to "right" all of our "wrongs" with money, and still retain any hope of solvency.

I am aware that certain "offenses" can have some very long term consequences.
Even in the christian bible it states that the lord "Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.” Exodus 34:7

We (this generation) cannot make right the theft of Native American land and genocide that occurred throughout the first century of this nation, anymore than we can assuage the sin of antebellum slavery.
The original victims are all long dead, and their descendants too plentiful. The original estate has been depleted.  And there just aren't enough dollars to go around to "satisfy" everyone.
Any deficient attempt at such a restitution would not only likely succeed in further offending the already offended, but would aggravate a host of new wrongs and further perpetuate the divisiveness that already plagues us.
And these are only the domestic issues mind you, there is a whole other can of worms attached if we try to make it "right" with all of the other countries of the world with which we have meddled, bombed and invaded...
And we've only been around as a nation for  a mere 242 years (or less if we consider either 1783 or 1787 as the official beginning).

So it seems to me that since we are financially incapable of "righting" all our "wrongs" (both past and present) with money, that some sincere form of compromise must be reached to help insure that we do not at least add further insult to a long list of existing (both real and perceived) injury.

What that would entail requires some great thought, but it might begin with a humble change in attitude.
An honest admission of our parents, and our parents parents, and their parents, complicity, and an acknowledgement that we are not that generation.
But since actions do speak louder than words, we should back that up by not emulating the bad behavior of those former generations (or on the flip-side, only emulate their best examples). And it would perhaps behoove us all to clear our heads and look beyond ourselves so that we can see the bigger, more distant picture.
We really need to place the greatest emphasis on the future, and not the past.
And on our youngsters, if we hope to have a viable future. 
Adapting a generational mindset in an age of instantaneous gratification is a hard concept to grasp, but it is necessary.

5 year, 10 year, 25 year, 50 year and beyond plans to make this country and the world not only sustainable, but thriving in energy efficient, earth friendly technologies.
An investment in those technologies today, and in educating all of our young into maintaining and creating more of them.
We need to survive well beyond that "fourth generation" and work towards creating a "better" world for all of us!

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Stephan, interesting writings on slavery. Of course slavery has existed in most parts of

the world and among most peoples. But since the topic was Columbus, it's only natural

to discuss that particular case. I came across this comic excerpt about Thomas Jefferson

by happenstance from a longer poem. Kind of humorous but to the point.:

 

The patriot, fresh from Freedom's councils come,

Now pleas'd retires to lash his slaves at home;

Or woo, perhaps, some black Aspasia's charms,

And dream of freedom in his bondmaid's arms. :)

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4 hours ago, Vautrin said:

Stephan, interesting writings on slavery. Of course slavery has existed in most parts of

the world and among most peoples. But since the topic was Columbus, it's only natural

to discuss that particular case. I came across this comic excerpt about Thomas Jefferson

by happenstance from a longer poem. Kind of humorous but to the point.:

 

The patriot, fresh from Freedom's councils come,

Now pleas'd retires to lash his slaves at home;

Or woo, perhaps, some black Aspasia's charms,

And dream of freedom in his bondmaid's arms. :)

I quoted your post because it was such a perfect lead-in (or rather it lead me in).
My exposition wasn't really directed at you, as I've a feeling that none of what I wrote was news to you. I just get off on an expounding jag every now and then.

I know, I know... I have been accused of sometimes rambling on and on verbally as well.
Generally I'm able to make it full circle and back to the point, if people can endure me that long (and still remember the instigating point).
Yeah, and when I get started writing about some topic of interest it's easy to drift into so many fascinating tangents that are related, but gradually become ever distantly so. It sometimes becomes difficult for me to find a place to stop.
I think that it might be a residue from my stoner days??? (they say some of that THC remains in your brain a very long time) :)

Like the poem. Would like to know the source and date.

I am sure that you are aware of the whole "Sally" Hemings "scandal."
Jefferson defenders have poo pooed it for literally two centuries. It wasn't until DNA analysis among Jefferson and Hemmings descendants finally proved it earlier this century, that the debate was finally settled.
Slaves were often given the family names (as property) of their owners, but scientific technology provided a whole new familial meaning to "The Jefferson's" ;)

I am actually quite fond of Tommy boy, warts and all.
A very complicated person. Both great and flawed. 
But still incredibly wise and astute about many diverse subjects, even if he failed to practice some of what he professed to believe.
Big fan of Uncle Ben, and Twain, and Lincoln, and.... as well.
I like reading the writings of our "founding fathers" and others. It allows one to better get into the "skin" of the person. Especially the more one becomes aware of their times. I also enjoy reading well researched biographies. 
A book that I have often recommended is "Decision in Philadelphia: The Constitutional Convention of 1787" by Christopher Collier. It sounds like it would be a dry read, but it's not (at least I didn't think so). Well written and well documented, and very insightful.  

BTW, enjoy the wit and humor of your posts.
It's been well said and demonstrated that less is often best.
Wish that I could be so concise and still feel like I hit the mark. :unsure:

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7 hours ago, MovieMadness said:

We just had Obama be President for 8 years, and he did little but play golf for 333 days. If it like you say it is, then he should have done something about it. Instead he did nothing.

Playing the blame game solves nothing. The roots of these problems date back to the beginning. Like an un-cared for wound they have festered with time.
No administration did "enough" to make the problems go away.
But some have (and are) doing more than their share to make them worse.

You sound like a kid sitting in his room complaining that his brother is the one who started the house on-fire.
"He's to blame, so he is the one who shoulda put it out."
While you sit there, doing nothing for yourself, or anyone else as the house goes up in flames around you.
Maybe it was a rotten house to begin with and deserves to burn down, but when it goes you'll be caught in the flames with the rest of us.
Perhaps that is why persons with an apparent  "death wish" elected a pyromaniac and gave him gasoline and matches to do the job!
But maybe the house just needed a rotten roof and termite ridden foundation replaced and repaired.
Either way, it is the only house we have, and we can either fix it or destroy it. But remember that if we destroy it, the good goes up in flames with the bad.

We only have two independent senators in congress today, and one of them should have been the current president of the U.S.. 
I think that I may understand why many persons voted for Trump.
But he may not have been the lesser of two evils that was hoped for by some, and he certainly is not the hero to "Make America Great Again" that others wish him to be.
Unless their perception of what was "great" is where we were in this country when the  K-K-K had free reign in Indiana, or when there were those that thought that Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, and Tojo were great guys with all the right ideas!
Come on MM, where is your gullibility quotient these days? I once gave you much more credit than falling for that kind of BS.

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11 hours ago, cigarjoe said:

No, I think in time He will have a special holiday, something along the lines of say of a National Clean Out Your Cesspool Day. 

 

LOL. Maybe they'll make April Fools Day DUMP DAY.

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8 hours ago, Stephan55 said:

Playing the blame game solves nothing. The roots of these problems date back to the beginning. Like an un-cared for wound they have festered with time.
No administration did "enough" to make the problems go away.
But some have (and are) doing more than their share to make them worse.

You sound like a kid sitting in his room complaining that his brother is the one who started the house on-fire.
"He's to blame, so he is the one who shoulda put it out."
While you sit there, doing nothing for yourself, or anyone else as the house goes up in flames around you.
Maybe it was a rotten house to begin with and deserves to burn down, but when it goes you'll be caught in the flames with the rest of us.
Perhaps that is why persons with an apparent  "death wish" elected a pyromaniac and gave him gasoline and matches to do the job!
But maybe the house just needed a rotten roof and termite ridden foundation replaced and repaired.
Either way, it is the only house we have, and we can either fix it or destroy it. But remember that if we destroy it, the good goes up in flames with the bad.

We only have two independent senators in congress today, and one of them should have been the current president of the U.S.. 
I think that I may understand why many persons voted for Trump.
But he may not have been the lesser of two evils that was hoped for by some, and he certainly is not the hero to "Make America Great Again" that others wish him to be.
Unless their perception of what was "great" is where we were in this country when the  K-K-K had free reign in Indiana, or when there were those that thought that Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, and Tojo were great guys with all the right ideas!
Come on MM, where is your gullibility quotient these days? I once gave you much more credit than falling for that kind of BS.

white liberals blame their own race fast enough. reverse racism will not spare them as they too will be labeled white devil hon kees.

there is great poetic justice in that.

:D

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On 10/10/2018 at 10:32 PM, Vautrin said:

I came across this comic excerpt about Thomas Jefferson

by happenstance from a longer poem. Kind of humorous but to the point.:

 

The patriot, fresh from Freedom's councils come,

Now pleas'd retires to lash his slaves at home;

Or woo, perhaps, some black Aspasia's charms,

And dream of freedom in his bondmaid's arms. :)

I became obsessed to discover the poet and date. And then (as usual) let the story take me where it will...

The author is Thomas Moore (May 28, 1779– February 25,1852) An Irish poet, singer, songwriter, and entertainer, best remembered for the lyrics of "The Minstrel Boy" and "The Last Rose of Summer."
The poem is in the collection "Epistles, Odes, and Other Poems," first published in 1806

The above excerpt is indeed reported to be a reference to Thomas Jefferson inspired perhaps by a meeting he had with him early during Jefferson's first term in 1803.

Thomas Moore was on a "Grand Tour" of the United States and Canada in 1803, and spent a short time in Washington. While there he stayed with the British Ambassador Anthony Merry. It was during that time that he had a brief meeting with President Jefferson, whom did not know who Moore was at the time, reportedly mistaking his small stature for that of a child. Moore reportedly was equally unimpressed with Jefferson.
During his travels Moore developed a deeply critical view of the United States as a whole, with a particular dislike for both the governing Democratic-Republican Party and the President.
Moore returned to England in 1804, and in 1806 published his book "Epistles, Odes, and Other Poems," comprising many remarks, faithfully expressive of his perceptions, on American society and manners.
A repeated theme in his writing on the United States were his observations of the institution of slavery. And the hypocrisy of slave owners. Including a reference to President Jefferson himself.
Moore's mocking criticisms of the United States provoked outrage in America and led to a number of rebuttals.

In the book "Epistles, Odes, and Other Poems," Thomas Moore writes his various observations in poetic fashion. One poem is addressed to Thomas Hume, M.D. (1769?-1850), an Irish born physician with a colorful history of his own. 
In the second stanza of that rather long poem lies the short poetic reference about Jefferson that Vautrin has herewith enlightened us with.

To place the poetic "slight" in historical context, Thomas Jefferson had never remarried after his wife Martha died in 1782 (at the age of 34) soon after giving birth to their sixth child. Of their six children only two daughters survived to maturity (Martha and Mary Jefferson) and only Martha (nicknamed "Patsy") lived beyond the age of 25.
During both of Jefferson's Presidential terms (March 4, 1801–March 4, 1809) it was his daughter Martha (named after her mother) who served the role of Acting First Lady of the United States. Martha was was then married to Thomas Mann Randolph Jr..

Before, during, and after Thomas Jefferson's Presidency, scandalous reports about intimate dalliance's with his slaves abounded, and one in particular was with Sarah "Sally" Hemings.
Much of this "slander" was discounted by Jefferson supporters at the time as nothing more than vengeful political mudslinging. However British Ambassador Merry would certainly have been aware of all the inside Washington gossip of his day and likely shared such tidbits with Thomas Moore during his visit there.

There has long been an abundance of circumstantial evidence that indicated the likelihood that Jefferson had been involved in a long term affair with Sally Hemings, but there was no "hard" evidence to either fully support or refute it.  However a renewed interest in the late 20th century stimulated a scientific research project and in 1998 a DNA analysis study found a match between the Jefferson male line and a descendant of Sally Hemings' last son.
Today there is a "growing historical consensus" among scholars that Jefferson had a long-term intimate relationship with Sally Hemings, and fathered of all of her six or seven children. 

Sally was still an infant, and the youngest of six siblings, when brought into the Jefferson household in 1773, along with their mixed-race mother, Betty Hemings. 
Betty had been a slave of John Wayles, the father of Martha Wayles who became Jefferson's wife in 1772.
It is believed that John Wayles, a Virginia lawyer and "gentleman" planter, fathered all six of Betty Hemings' children, including Sally, which would have made Sally Hemings and Martha Wayles half sisters, and the aunt of Jeffersons children by Martha. It would also have made Sally 3/4 European and 1/4 African.
Martha Wayles and Thomas Jefferson were married January 1, 1772, and Martha's father died on May 28, 1773. At her fathers death, Martha inherited his estate and slaves, including Betty Hemings and her six children.
When Martha Jefferson died on September 6, 1782 (a few months after giving birth to Jefferson's sixth child), Sally Hemings (1773–1835) would have been about nine years of age. 
In 1787, Thomas Jefferson (then age 44) was serving as the United States Minister to France. That year Sally Hemings (at age 14) and her brother James Hemings accompanied Jefferson's youngest surviving daughter Mary (age 9) to be with her father in Paris. Sally spent the next two years there and historians believe that it was during this time, or shortly after their return to Monticello, that Jefferson began a sexual relationship with Sally Hemings. Jefferson was 30 years older than Sally and her "Master."

In 1789, Sally and James Hemings returned to the United States with Jefferson who was 46 years old and seven years a widower. As shown by Jefferson's father-in-law, John Wayles, wealthy Virginia widowers frequently had long-term relations with enslaved women. This would not have been unusual for Jefferson as well. White society simply expected these men to be discreet about such relationships.

Jefferson recorded slave births in his Farm Book. Unlike his practice in recording births of other slaves, he did not note the father of Hemings' children.
Some of the Jefferson records were deliberately mutilated (possibly by Jefferson himself or his daughter Martha) but those that survived the purge note that Hemings had six children after her return to the U.S..
However, Madison Hemings stated that he was the sixth of seven children born to Sally Hemings' and reported that his mother told him that her first child died shortly after her return from Paris.
Sally's first child of record born in the U.S. was Harriet Hemings who died two years after her birth (October 5, 1795-December 7, 1797).
Another daughter, Thenia Hemings, was born in 1799 and died in infancy.
However four of Sally's children (one daughter and three sons) survived to maturity:
William Beverley Hemings (April 1, 1798–after 1873), Harriet Hemings (II) (May 22, 1801–after 1863), James Madison Hemings (January 19, 1805–1877), and Thomas Eston Hemings (May 21, 1808–1856).

Sally Hemings and all of her children lived as "house" slaves in Jefferson's Monticello mansion. The children were all trained to be artisans, and Sally's documented duties at Monticello included being a nursemaid-companion, a lady's maid, chambermaid, and seamstress. It is not known whether she was literate, and she left no known writings.
She was described as being very fair, with "straight hair down her back".
Jefferson's grandson, Thomas Jefferson Randolph, described her as "light colored and decidedly good looking".

Sally never married. As a slave, she could not have a marriage recognized under Virginia law, but many slaves at Monticello are known to have taken partners in common-law marriages and had stable lives. No such marriage for Hemings is noted in the records.
While Sally Hemings "worked" at Monticello, she had her children nearby. According to her son Madison, while young, the children "were permitted to stay about the 'great house', and only required to do such light work as going on errands."
At the age of 14, each of the children began their training: the brothers with the plantation's skilled master of carpentry, and Harriet as a spinner and weaver.
The three boys all learned to play the violin, which Jefferson himself played.

Jefferson "freed" all of Hemings' surviving children: Beverly, Harriet, Madison, and Eston, as they came of age (they were the only slave family freed by Jefferson).
They were seven-eighths European in ancestry, and three of the four entered white society as adults. Descendants of those three identified as white.
Despite this, Sally Hemings remained enslaved in Jefferson's house until his death in Charlottesville, on July 4, 1826, at the age of 83.
Sally was 53 when Jefferson died and had been his "mistress" for at least 37 years.
 
After Jefferson's death, Sally was "given her time," by Jefferson's eldest daughter Martha, and lived her last nine years freely with her two younger sons in Charlottesville, Virginia. She saw a grandchild born in a house that her sons owned.

In 1822, at the age of 24, Beverley Hemings "ran away" from Monticello and was not pursued. His sister Harriet Hemings, 21, followed in the same year.
The overseer Edmund Bacon said that he gave Harriet $50 (equivalent to $1,021 in 2017 dollars) and put her on a stagecoach to the North, presumably to join her brother.
In his memoir, published posthumously, Bacon said Harriet was "near white and very beautiful," and that people said Jefferson freed her because she was his daughter.
Madison Hemings said Beverley and Harriet each entered white society in Washington, DC, and each married well.

Of the hundreds of slaves he owned, Jefferson "formally" freed only two while he was living: Sally Hemings' older brothers Robert, who had to buy his freedom, and James Hemings, who was required to train his brother Peter for three years to get his freedom.
Jefferson freed five slaves in his will, all males from the extended Hemings family, including his "natural" children Madison and Eston Hemings. Harriet Hemings was the only female slave he allowed to go free.
In addition to manumission for the Hemings men in his will, he petitioned the legislature to allow them to stay in the state.

No documentation has been found for Sally Hemings' emancipation. Jefferson's daughter Martha "Patsy" Randolph informally freed the elderly Hemings after Jefferson's death, by giving her "her time," as was a custom.
Historian Edmund S. Morgan noted, "Hemings herself was withheld from auction and freed at last by Jefferson's daughter, Martha Jefferson Randolph, who was, of course, her niece."
This informal freedom allowed Sally Hemings to live in Virginia with her two youngest sons in nearby Charlottesville for the next nine years, until her death in 1835 (at the age of 61 or 62 years).
In the Albemarle County 1833 census, all three were recorded as free persons of color.

Jefferson had inherited a great amount of wealth at a young age but was bankrupt by the time he died.
His entire estate, including the people he enslaved, was sold to repay his debts.
The extended Hemings family were his only slaves that were not sold.


https://www.poetrysoup.com/thomas_moore/biography

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Moore

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings

(scroll down to)
TO THOMAS HUME, ESQ., M. D.
FROM THE CITY OF WASHINGTON.
Complete poem, (excerpt is the second stanza)

http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Complete-Poems-of-Sir-Thomas-Moore7.html

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On 10/10/2018 at 8:57 AM, Hibi said:

Does that mean DUMP too?

 

13 hours ago, cigarjoe said:

No, I think in time He will have a special holiday, something along the lines of say of a National Clean Out Your Cesspool Day. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Hibi said:

LOL. Maybe they'll make April Fools Day DUMP DAY.

 

I used to kinda enjoy taking a nice DUMP...
Now, every time I have to go, I'll be thinking about the biggest T-U-R-D I've ever seen...:angry:
Oh well, at least I can pretend when I flush it down... So long as it's not an orange floater.:rolleyes:

  • Haha 2

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Stephan55 you just inspired 2018's Running Slogan!!!!!

"Get out and vote and Take a Dump on Trump!!!"

Or just "Take A Dump on Trump!!!

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Stephan, I knew most of the things discussed in your post about slavery, though not all.

I still found it interesting. I seem to recall that before the DNA results pointed to Jefferson

as the likely father of her children, there was some disagreement about whether the descendants

of Sally Hemings should be invited to Jefferson family reunions. I suppose by now that is no

longer much of a controversy. I don't know much about Thomas Moore except that he was an

Irish poet of the 19th century, one of those writers whose name I recognize without having

any familiarity with their work. I happened on the excerpt while reading Dickens' Martin Chuzzlewit,

where that part of the poem is referred to, though indirectly. Like Moore, Dickens also made a trip

to the U.S., though forty years after Moore. He too was disappointed in the U.S. and like Moore

made much fun of the braggadocios character of Americans and also the gap between their hymns

to liberty and freedom and the fact of their slave owning. Besides the slave owning Jefferson many

praises of liberty, he also was all in favor of frugality in government, something he obviously did

not follow in his private life. Here's another quote about the hypocrisy  of slave owners

from that old stick in the mud Samuel Johnson: "How is it that we hear the loudest

yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes." Nailed it.

 

 

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