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Sepiatone

That's ONE way to put it I've not heard before...

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I'll make this quick( since I'm behind my schedule )  but after viewing my DVD of '51's "Scrooge"( or "A Christmas Carol") I had time to spare and took in some of the "features".  And in one of them, saw where the movie was referred to as "A Christmas Noir."

Well, I never thought of the movie in that term, but it does seem to fit.  ;) 

Thoughts?

Sepiatone

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3 minutes ago, Sepiatone said:

I'll make this quick( since I'm behind my schedule )  but after viewing my DVD of '51's "Scrooge"( or "A Christmas Carol") I had time to spare and took in some of the "features".  And in one of them, saw where the movie was referred to as "A Christmas Noir."

Well, I never thought of the movie in that term, but it does seem to fit.  ;) 

Thoughts?

Sepiatone

Fellow poster cigarjoe likes to say noir is a style more than it is a genre, which means as a style it can occur across genres. I agree. So in this case it stands to reason that noir as a style can apply to a holiday film that has grim/bleak aspects.

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Oh, my gawd. :blink:

Yer killing me over here. This really is the dizzy limit!

Why not just stick a knife in my ribs rather than this slow death by a million little cuts?

It stands to reason? What reason? Lack of reason is more like it. Otherwise, I suppose 'Wizard of Oz' is 'children's noir'? The theory is DAFT!!!   :wacko::wacko::wacko:

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8 minutes ago, Sgt_Markoff said:

Oh, my gawd. :blink:

Yer killing me over here. This really is the dizzy limit!

Why not just stick a knife in my ribs rather than this slow death by a million little cuts?

It stands to reason? What reason? Lack of reason is more like it. Otherwise, I suppose 'Wizard of Oz' is 'children's noir'? The theory is DAFT!!!   :wacko::wacko::wacko:

Interesting idea. Yes, I think there probably is such a thing as children's noir. THE INNOCENTS (1961) would certainly fit that "category" and so would THE BAD SEED (1956).

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Some fans really like to obsess over whether or not some film can be categorized as some kind of noir. Now it's "Christmas noir."

I don't see fans of other genres doing this, just noir fans. Pretentious pap.

 

Much ado about nothing.

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2 minutes ago, TopBilled said:

Interesting idea. Yes, I think there probably is such a thing as children's noir. THE INNOCENTS (1961) would certainly fit that "category" and so would THE BAD SEED (1956).

TopBilled, I agree with you. There is such thing as children's noir, but the term isn't widely known. Children's noir also extends into cartoons. The series finale of Hey Arnold is a spoof of The Maltese Falcon. Have a look for yourself.

 

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4 minutes ago, jinsinna13 said:

TopBilled, I agree with you. There is such thing as children's noir, but the term isn't widely known. Children's noir also extends into cartoons. The series finale of Hey Arnold is a spoof of The Maltese Falcon. Have a look for yourself.

Thanks. I hope the OP chimes in again. And maybe cigarjoe. This is an interesting discussion.

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The Wolf Man: Full Moon Noir.

Gone With The Wind: Antebellum Noir.

Abbot and Costello Meet Captain Kidd: Slapstick Pirate Noir.

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42 minutes ago, TomJH said:

The Wolf Man: Full Moon Noir.

Gone With The Wind: Antebellum Noir.

Abbot and Costello Meet Captain Kidd: Slapstick Pirate Noir.

Yes, seriously, these could all be re-viewed in terms of noir style. Almost any film could be.

THE WOLF MAN could be seen as a proto-noir in the horror vein.

69cf4-screen2bshot2b2016-05-212bat2b2-58-382bpm.png

GONE WITH THE WIND has a big scene, where Scarlett shoots the soldier, that combines costume drama, melodrama, war drama and crime/noir.

eb092-screen2bshot2b2016-05-212bat2b2-31-392bpm.png

The A&C movie could be reassessed as a comedy noir if it has darker elements in the narrative. Why not?

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3 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

I'll make this quick( since I'm behind my schedule )  but after viewing my DVD of '51's "Scrooge"( or "A Christmas Carol") I had time to spare and took in some of the "features".  And in one of them, saw where the movie was referred to as "A Christmas Noir."

Well, I never thought of the movie in that term, but it does seem to fit.  ;) 

Thoughts?

Sepiatone

it must be alastair sim's climb up the long dark shadowy stairs. you can even see the outside illumination coming through the window and we see a bust in a recessed wall area. what a lonely and dark abode. Victorian dismal. :lol: scrooge locks himself in his bedroom to enjoy some hot porridge. what a dismal and gloomy xmas eve nite.

:D

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2 hours ago, Sgt_Markoff said:

Oh, my gawd. :blink:

Yer killing me over here. This really is the dizzy limit!

Why not just stick a knife in my ribs rather than this slow death by a million little cuts?

It stands to reason? What reason? Lack of reason is more like it. Otherwise, I suppose 'Wizard of Oz' is 'children's noir'? The theory is DAFT!!!   :wacko::wacko::wacko:

You're pretty excitable.

You know, for a soldier.

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My view is that anytime a murder occurs, or a character has the intention of murdering another character, that's noir. Which means noir elements can appear in a wide variety of genres and sub-genres if those films or TV shows have killing in them.

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4 hours ago, TopBilled said:

Interesting idea. Yes, I think there probably is such a thing as children's noir. THE INNOCENTS (1961) would certainly fit that "category" and so would THE BAD SEED (1956).

My first thought would have been The Window.

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6 minutes ago, Fedya said:

My first thought would have been The Window.

Oh yeah, GREAT example. Love this film!

screen-shot-2018-11-23-at-12-28-47-pm.jp

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It is my understanding that 'noir' connotes a work which obscures lines in traditionally black-and-white situations. It involves moral ambiguity while good people do bad things and bad people become heroes. The cynicism is cranked up to eleven and the fatalism is palpable. 

There is no reason why such a stylistic approach to storytelling would be confined to a single genre.

I have read reviews which state that: Gunslinger Girl (2003) is a type of noir. None did explicitly term it as: anime noir but the implication is there. I would not personally term it such as I find little moral ambiguity within the main characters: they are simply sweet and innocent little girls who assassinate Republicans. 

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2 hours ago, TopBilled said:

My view is that anytime a murder occurs, or a character has the intention of murdering another character, that's noir.

I wouldn't quite agree: I don't think, for example, that Becket is a noir, and Some Like It Hot certainly isn't.

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3 minutes ago, Fedya said:

I wouldn't quite agree: I don't think, for example, that Becket is a noir, and Some Like It Hot certainly isn't.

You missed what I said. I never said films had to be pure noir. I said many films and TV shows have noir elements in them. It's been awhile since I've seen BECKET...but I would say that anytime someone kills or has the intent to kill, that's a noir element, regardless of genre.

So if someone is murdering or trying to murder someone else in BECKET, then it could be defined on some level as historical noir.

I would definitely say MACBETH (1948) is an example of historical noir.

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I don't think Spats wanting to kill Daphne and Josephine has noir elements at all.  And I don't think of the killings in most of the 30s gangster movies as noir elements either.

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1 minute ago, Fedya said:

I don't think Spats wanting to kill Daphne and Josephine has noir elements at all.  And I don't think of the killings in most of the 30s gangster movies as noir elements either.

Re: your first sentence-- I think maybe you are having a hard time buying my definition when you apply it to a comedy. But wanting to kill any living thing, even if presented humorously, is still black-hearted. Chaplin's MONSIEUR VERDOUX (1947) is a perfect example.

Re: your second sentence -- Gangster movies of the late 20s and 30s are a direct precursor to the purer forms of noir associated with postwar Hollywood cinema. The studios saw it this way too or else RKO wouldn't have remade 1928's THE RACKET in 1951. They recognized the similar elements that those early stories contained and it was easy to bring them up to date. Columbia's films THE BIG HEAT (1953) and TIGHT SPOT (1955) are other good examples of gangster stories repackaged with more explicit noir elements.

I think the problem people have when they struggle to widen their understanding of noir is that they are trying to pin it to certain years of production or to black and white crime dramas. They can't see noir in comedy or noir in science fiction, or noir in other unlikely genres, but it's still there.

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Tarzan the Ape Man: Loincloth Noir.

Harvey: Invisible Rabbit Noir.

Ben Hur: Chariot Noir.

Bridge on the River Kwai: Hot Box Noir.

Man Who Shot Liberty Valance: Wrong Man Given Credit For A Killing Noir.

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5 hours ago, TomJH said:

The Wolf Man: Full Moon Noir.

 

I don't know ... I see this more as a Soir Noir.

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Remember Eddie Muller's dictum "Its Baroom not Classroom"

It's a style. Take for example It's A wonderful Life, it goes definitely Noir in it's Potterville Sequence, it's shot in a totally different style. If a film has a murder in it and is filmed in the traditional Hollywood method it just a Crime film.

here below are some various tales

"Film noir is a cycle of mainly American films of the 1940’s and 1950’s exploring the darker aspects of modernity, and usually set in a criminal milieu or exploring the consequences of a criminal act.

Film noir is not only for film buffs and academics. The film-makers of the 40’s and 50’s were not making “film noir” movies, they were making pictures for a wide audience which are still immensely entertaining. The movies of the classic noir cycle were subversive and questioned the facade of everyday life in stories that had wide appeal....

While many see film noir originating in post-WW2 trauma, I believe the origins of film noir lie largely elsewhere. Film noir was a manifestation of the fear, despair and loneliness at the core of American life apparent well before the first shot was fired in WW2. This is not to say that the experience of WW2 did not influence or inform the themes and development of the noir cycle in the post-war period. The origins of film noir and why it flowered where and when it did are complex, and we can’t be definitive, but it is fairly evident that noir emerged before the US entered the War, and had its origins principally in the new wave of émigré European directors and cinematographers, who fashioned a new kind of cinema from the gangster flick of the 30’s and the pre-War hard-boiled novels of Dashiell Hammett, Raymond Chandler, James M. Cain, and Cornell Woolrich. We can also clearly see the influence of German expressionism, the burgeoning knowledge of psychology and its motifs, and precursors in the French poetic realist films of the 30’s. Noir was about the other, the “dark self” and the alienation in the modern American city manifested in psychosis, criminality, and paranoia. It was also born of an existential despair which had more to do with the desperate loneliness of urban life in the aftermath of the Depression. Noir writer Cornell Woolrich, for example, was a lonely and repressed individual, who spent his life in hotel rooms, and painter Edwards Hopper’s study of the long lonely night in Nighthawks was painted in 1942."

Tony D'Ambra filmsnoir.net

or 

“Here’s what film noir is to me.  It’s a righteous, generically American film movement that went from 1945 to 1958 and exposited one great theme and that theme is you’re ****.  You have just met a woman, you’re inches away from the greatest sex of your life but within six weeks of meeting the woman you will be framed for a crime you did not commit and you’ll end up in the gas chamber and as they strap you in and you’re about to breath the cyanide fumes you’ll be grateful for the few weeks you had with her and grateful for your own death.”

-James Ellroy
Novelist, L.A. Confidential

or

"A particular style/tool of film making used in certain film/plot sequences or for a films entirety that conveyed claustrophobia, alienation, obsession, and events spiraling out of control, that came to fruition in the roughly the period of the last two and a half decades of B&W film. 

Another thought to throw into the equation of what makes a Noir/Neo Noir is an individual internal factor. It's subjectivity. Noir is in all of us. Think of us all as having an internal tuning fork, these tuning forks are forged by our life experiences which are all unique. When we watch these films their degree of Noir-ness resonates with us differently, so we either "tune" to them or we don't. The amount of "tuning" (I'm appropriating this term from the Neo Noir Dark City (1998)) to certain films will vary between us all also."

Me

 

51 minutes ago, TomJH said:

Tarzan the Ape Man: Loincloth Noir.

Harvey: Invisible Rabbit Noir.

Ben Hur: Chariot Noir.

Bridge on the River Kwai: Hot Box Noir.

Man Who Shot Liberty Valance: Wrong Man Given Credit For A Killing Noir.

Obviously have no idea what we are trying to convey.

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3 minutes ago, cigarjoe said:

"Film noir is a cycle of mainly American films of the 1940’s and 1950’s exploring the darker aspects of modernity, and usually set in a criminal milieu or exploring the consequences of a criminal act.

This is the view I have the biggest problem with, because I feel it's narrow-minded to limit a discussion of noir to the postwar era. Noir was happening before the war, during the war and has been in evidence long after the war.

The criminal act that is explored is most always murder. Noir=murder, I don't know how many times I have to say it before it finally sinks in.

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Christmas Noir from a previous discussion

From previous discussions....

On 8/25/2018 at 7:49 PM, misswonderly3 said:
But noir  "Christmas" movies are not exactly typical heart-warming, feel-good family Yuletide fare; therefore I would argue that unlike such "regular" Christmas offerings, noir Christmas films would be a welcome change. And certainly they are not shown over and over again, to the point where even one's favourite "holiday" movies can wear a little thin. Also, since most noirs are, as we all know, , edgy, often dark (in more ways than one), and altogether the opposite of sentimental etc., they would not cloy a Christmas-film-weary audience; so I don't believe we'd tire of them the same way as with the usual suspects.

And actually, there are lots of noirs that, if not exactly Christmas -themed, are set at Christmas time. Just to name a few:

Christmas Holiday   and  Lady on a Train...ok, Deanna Durbin isn't exactly an icon of noir. But it's just a bit of a stretch to say that these two are at least kind of noirish, and they certainly don't get aired very often.

The Lady in the Lake:  Robert Montgomery's plucky albeit not always successful attempt at subjective camera; Audrey Totter's the best thing in it. Anyway, it takes place over Christmas and New Year's.

Kiss of Death:  Well, it's not exactly a "holiday" movie, but it does begin at Christmas time, complete with department store decorations etc. Victor Mature does a little stealing, but hey, it's just because he wants to buy his family some nice Christmas gifts.

Also - I could be mistaken about this one, but I think The Sweet Smell of Success is set over the week between Christmas and New Year's.  maybe not,can't remember....

Lots more, I just can't bring them to mind. Oh, honourable mention: It's not a classic era noir, but what about

L.A. Confidential?  It's a pretty darn good neo-noir, and it's set over the holidays. And hey, I have no problem watching Kevin Spacey in it. 

More Christmas Noir:     
Repeat Performance (1947), Cover Up (1949), Backfire (1950), Roadblock (1951), Crime Wave (1953), I, The Jury (1953), Two Men In Manhattan (1959), Blast Of Silence (1961),     
 

Some Christmas Neo Noir (there are a few more)

Warm Nights On A Slow Moving Train (1988), Delusion (1991), Hard Eight (1996),  The Lookout (2007). 

 

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