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Sepiatone

That's ONE way to put it I've not heard before...

299 posts in this topic

22 hours ago, Sgt_Markoff said:

 

Think about it: will anyone ever in any conversation ever, really ever use the term 'reflexive noir'?

 

Maybe not Reflex Noir but I can see someone using the term Duplex Noir for people trading spouses in the same living establishment in a dark and dangerous way on those wet noirish streets, Sarge. Now when Muller speaks on the subject I have more of a feeling of Reflux Noir coming up from my innards.

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Who the frig is Polly of the Precodes? I only ask because I keep noticing she responds to posts here, but has never posted anything herself (on this thread, anyway.)

Polly, come out where ever you are. (Crackers optional.)

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5 hours ago, LawrenceA said:

I don't know. I'm no techie, by any means. My tablet used the Silk browser.

I think the different browsers can be downloaded, they appear as Apps. My iPhone defaults to having Safari, but I think I could have Chrome or what not if I wanted to.  I have an Android tablet and the main browser is Chrome, but I could download another browser.  I definitely don't use my tablet for the message board, it's hard to type on, the on-screen keyboard buttons are too far apart. 

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2 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Who the frig is Polly of the Precodes? I only ask because I keep noticing she responds to posts here, but has never posted anything herself (on this thread, anyway.)

She is the mother of Polly of the Postcodes, who, oddly, never posts anywhere.

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Gotta say this thread sure seems to have elicited a lot moir responses than I ever thought it would.

(...doh, I meant "more"...geez, see what you people have done to me?!!!)

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55 minutes ago, Dargo said:

Gotta say this thread sure seems to have elicited a lot moir responses than I ever thought it would.

(...doh, I meant "more"...geez, see what you people have done to me?!!!)

Moir Moire.  This has something to do with polynomials I think.  Rich would understand.  http://moviecollectoroh.com/pics_to_hotlink_on_TCM/forum-wine.gif
(Not the glass of wine, the big frickin' thing below)

moire-lines.svg

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36 minutes ago, MovieCollectorOH said:

Moir Moire.  This has something to do with polynomials I think.  Rich would understand. http://moviecollectoroh.com/pics_to_hotlink_on_TCM/forum-wine.gif

moire-lines.svg

PlanNine_10.jpg

"Yes, Master. Message received from moire. I will do as you command."

(...yeah MCOH, and Rich should understand THIS one too!) ;)

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10 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Who the frig is Polly of the Precodes? I only ask because I keep noticing she responds to posts here, but has never posted anything herself (on this thread, anyway.)

Polly, come out where ever you are. (Crackers optional.)

What a charming invitation! I haven't posted in this or the other noir threads, because my knowledge of the genre is limited and I'm more interested in proto-noir anyways. (Could someone watch 1934's Woman in the Dark and confirm that my subconscious and wishful thinking didn't make it up?) Nonetheless, I love few things as much as a good nerd fight, and all of you are BRINGING IT.

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14 minutes ago, Polly of the Precodes said:

What a charming invitation! I haven't posted in this or the other noir threads, because my knowledge of the genre is limited and I'm more interested in proto-noir anyways. (Could someone watch 1934's Woman in the Dark and confirm that my subconscious and wishful thinking didn't make it up?) Nonetheless, I love few things as much as a good nerd fight, and all of you are BRINGING IT.

I'm sure most here would love to hear more of your opinions not just of noir film but of films in general. You shouldn't feel afraid to share your opinions. We don't bite. :) 

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Hmph....

Odd that nobody YET took the advantage to post, "It's neither HERE noir THERE!  ;)

Sepiatone

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 "Raymond Borde and Étienne Chaumeton"...YAWN... :huh:

How many college courses can you name which have only one title on the syllabus? Never rely on any single book (no matter how authoritative it seems) to replace your own faculties of reason, analysis, and observation. One winds up only quoting dogmatically --rather than thinking for yourself. Has the field of film criticism stayed at a standstill after these two Frenchies published? Hardly.

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6 hours ago, Polly of the Precodes said:

What a charming invitation! I haven't posted in this or the other noir threads, because my knowledge of the genre is limited and I'm more interested in proto-noir anyways. (Could someone watch 1934's Woman in the Dark and confirm that my subconscious and wishful thinking didn't make it up?) Nonetheless, I love few things as much as a good nerd fight, and all of you are BRINGING IT.

A good nerd fight;  LOVE that line!     Yea,  any fighting is all for fun on subjects that while we love the topics,  at the end of the day, are just done to fill up one's day. 

I'll looked at the pre-code sub-genre threads to see if I could 'find you' but I didn't.  Anyhow,  would love to discuss pre-codes with you or any other type of genres\sub-genres\styles.    

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...and the notion that the viewer of a film has a 'choice' as to how much noir he sees. Its really one of the strangest ideas I've ever heard broached in a friendly and rambling film chat. Bears returning to. I certainly can't swaller it.

Question: do we ever have a choice in how much we belly-laugh (at a comedy pratfall) or how much we jump-out-of-our-skin (at a blood-splatter)?

Let's see...in Steven Spielberg's "Jaws" I'm sure myself (and many other audience members) did not particularly seek to writhe and squirm as much as he intended, when the severed head of the Amity local pops out of the dark side of the wrecked fishing-boat. I'm sure we all might have done with a slightly less-jarring depiction of that. Did we have a choice?

The discovery of noir was something new and it does have its own involuntary physical sensation. When you 'graft little bits of it onto other genres' you get a lot of different results, but they ain't noir.

 

Think of it this way: no producer, director, or photographer working on a classic musical ever said:

"you know what? give me less light over there, I'm going for a noir effect"

or

"hey, do you see that? Taking out that light winds up with a little bit of noir effect in that one scene, whaddya think? We leave it in?"

Studio movies weren't made in such a ramshackle fashion.

 

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7 hours ago, Polly of the Precodes said:

What a charming invitation! I haven't posted in this or the other noir threads, because my knowledge of the genre is limited and I'm more interested in proto-noir anyways. (Could someone watch 1934's Woman in the Dark and confirm that my subconscious and wishful thinking didn't make it up?) Nonetheless, I love few things as much as a good nerd fight, and all of you are BRINGING IT.

Yeah, but don't forget that old saying about that, Polly:

"Never bring a dweeb to a nerd fight."

(...you know, it's kind'a like that whole "knife/gun" thing)

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6 minutes ago, Polly of the Precodes said:

Which reminds me, may I propose Phantom Thread as an example of "moiré noir"?

Sorry Polly, never saw it, and although I had heard it's another film where Daniel Day-Lewis gives another great performance. Man, that guy can act.

But, IF D D-L ever wears, say, a tweed or checkered sportcoat and/or another character wears something he designed and the fabric it's made from appears to strobe onscreen, then yeah, I suppose your example would be applicable, perhaps.

(...would this be what you were going for here?)

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:D

"Polly Of The Precodes".

Kinda reminds me of that "Artie Of The First Art" JIMMY STEWART tries playing on the piano in ANATOMY OF A MURDER.  ;)

Same composer, eh what?  ;)

Sepiatone

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On 11/29/2018 at 6:12 AM, TikiSoo said:

For example: how would you categorize the Eagles?

Crap rock.

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TopBill'd sez:

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I think there is a flaw in your logic above. Nothing can pre-date noir. Noir has always been present. It's just that it wasn't identified as such until the 20th century. Shakespeare was definitely writing noir when he wrote MacBeth and Hamlet. His writing doesn't pre-date noir. His writing pre-dates the identification of noir. That's how I look at it.

I say thee nay. I see errors in the response here, rather than in my rather more conservatively-stated remarks.

The hallmark of sturdy criticism is in never going too far out on any branch of supposition. It is always best to not stray too far from what other critics have preciously established. But this reckless trait is everywhere in the noir threads of this forum. Its almost daydreaming that I see going on.

Suffice to say that the conclusions you're drawing here wouldn't survive even briefly in the environment where they would really need to, in order to prove their durability and worth. Any college English department. Broached there, these musings would be shot down rather unceremoniously.

The fact that noir wasn't formulated as an idea until the 20th century is not a circumstance that can be dismissed or set aside as negligible when looking back many centuries prior to the writing of Shakespeare or any other tragedian.

Even more damning is the fact that no one in the heyday of what in the 20th century became known as 'contemporary examples' of noir--these either, were never identified as noir even when they were timely and fresh and new to the eyes of critics and audiences.

'Noir films' were really only tagged as noir in retrospect, ten or twenty years afterwards. This is why anyone citing French critics is off-base. The American filmmakers themselves, didnt know the term for what they were doing.

So how then, (if even in our own time we couldn't identify the themes of noir), how much less should we be able to use hindsight to apply it to eras and peoples, even further distant?

In the hundreds of years of literary and theatrical criticism between Shakespeare and today, how did no reviewer ever identify noir themes in Shakespeare (whether they were called 'noir' or any other term)? Why would we say that only now, our modern analysis must take precedence over theirs?

How did all the astute thinkers and trained critics miss making these observations, leaving them undiscovered for hundreds of years until our own time when we accidentally stumble on them thanks to the accident of cinema?

Where do we get the arrogance to claim that some sensibility born of the 20th century must have been present in Shakespeare's brain?

Where do we get the gall to claim no one else ever suspected this? Shakespeare was emphatically, was not writing noir.

What is going on here is simply a casual pasting of an incorrect term onto everything under the sun. 

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So we can certainly apply hybrid terms like neo-noir, historical noir, western noir, children's noir, comic noir, whatever-- anytime there's a murder in the story, an argument can be made that it contains elements of noir.

Unnnngggg. Again I say fie!

This argument just doesn't causally follow from what you've stated above. The earlier mistake does not justify the compounding of another mistake in the same train of thought. The second error is actually, fully bad enough on its own to warrant a better explanation than tacking it on to the earlier theorem. 

Really, the second error wouldn't stand on its own either with or without the preceding line of reason. There's simply no historical link which has ever been made by critic of these genres (crime, mystery, detective) upon which to base a link between murder and noir. There's dozens of attacks which could be made against the notion.

The worst grievance at hand here is that all this simply adds an obscurantist, obfuscating, and unnecessary layer of verbiage that -for no good reason--gets in the way of the clarity which has always been needed to apply to these areas of genre studies. Adding a secondary shellac like this increases understanding not at all, in fact it very much leads to the opposite.

The terminology used for film noir is already heavily taxed merely trying to encapsulate that difficult 20th century phenomenon. Extending it into the language needed to discuss other areas of intellectual heritage is sheer foolhardiness.

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The mystery might come from confusion surrounding the motivation behind a murderous act, but the subtext under the surface is noir and that becomes more explicit and apparent when the mystery is "solved." If the case is solved wrong, then the subtext is not fully transparent and the story gets darker, more noir-ish.

Why not just call it a hundred other things it could be called such as 'downbeat' or 'gloom' instead of insisting it has something to do with film noir when it obviously has nothing inherently to do with noir at all?

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So we can put mystery fiction in a place that is separate from noir if you like, but my idea is that some...

I'm certainly glad to hear this! Because mystery and noir assuredly are separate. Without a doubt, they are separate.

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Top B said:

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One term I don't use is neo-noir.

But, it's still very necessary.

Because remember, the producers and directors who we later deemed to have 'made' noir didnt realize that's what they were doing at the time. The term and concept both were applied retroactively in this country and its cinema industry and among our audiences.

Once this recognition became widespread, any American filmmaker who subsequently came along could no longer claim to be unaware of the sensationalism attached to it.

This order-of-precedence is a truism respected in any field of art. You start your own career carefully mindful as to what makes your own path distinct from the influences you were exposed to beforehand. Its vital.

 

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It's like saying a neo-Nazi is a new kind of Nazi. No, a Nazi is still a Nazi.

Your heart is in the right place (indeed I'd say that in every TCM thread where you participate, including this one) but this last bit of thinking-aloud, sounds absurd to my ears. That's just how it strikes me.

Think of it this way: is a distraught American teen who fantasizes about Nazism the same as a Nazi soldier who actually served in Germany's military and killed men in the course of WWII? No law made in heaven or made on earth by men, would say they're the same. Actions committed during wartime are clearly different than actions committed in peace.

There's at least thirty other arguments which spring to mind to defend against this unusual over-simplification.

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p.s. I apologize if my posts sound dogmatic, stentorian, or like papal edicts. I get short on 'chatter' as the hour grows late; and I simply speak my rebuttals in blunt fashion without any trimmings. Fins! Kilroy was here!

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18 hours ago, Sgt_Markoff said:

p.s. I apologize if my posts sound dogmatic, stentorian, or like papal edicts. I get short on 'chatter' as the hour grows late; and I simply speak my rebuttals in blunt fashion without any trimmings. Fins! Kilroy was here!

Thanks impressed to know that....

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No matter which way you put it

Noir down to it's basics is this

"Life isn't always a happy ending."

 

It's a universal truth. :D

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