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Sepiatone

That's ONE way to put it I've not heard before...

299 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, TopBilled said:

Noir=murder, I don't know how many times I have to say it before it finally sinks in.

It has sunk in.  It is just people don't agree with it.

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On 11/24/2018 at 12:13 AM, slaytonf said:

It has sunk in.  It is just people don't agree with it.

Well, most film noir deal with the dark side of the human condition. Murder is of course a big factor in most film noir but not all.  Film Noir - French authors  Nino Frank and Jean-Pierre Chartier.

In August 1946, L'Écran français published Nino Frank’s article A New Kind of Police Drama: the Criminal Adventure. He begins by citing “seven new American films that are particularly masterful: ‘Citizen Kane,’ ‘The Little Foxes,’ ‘How Green Was My Valley,’ plus, ‘Double Indemnity,’ ‘Laura,’ and, to a certain extent, ‘The Maltese Falcon’ and ‘Murder My Sweet.’” He then focuses only on the crime films.

“They belong,” Frank wrote of the crime films, “to a class that we used to call the crime film, but would best be described from this point on by a term such as criminal adventures, or better yet, such as criminal psychology.” He goes on to note the passing of the Golden Age of mysteries – as practiced by S. S. Van Dine – to the new writers such as Dashiell Hammett.

“Laura,” he notes, belongs to the “outdated genre” and it is “lacking in originality but perfectly distracting and, one can say, successful.” What saves “Laura” as a film for Frank is “a complicated narrative, a perverse writer who is prosaic but amusing, and foremost a detective with an emotional life.”

“For the other three, the method is different. They are,” Frank wrote, “as what one might call ‘true to life.’ The detective is not a mechanism but a protagonist.” He notes that the films end with scenes that “are harsh and misogynistic, as is most of contemporary American literature.” And he adds, “I would not go so far as to say these films are completely successful. While “The Maltese Falcon” is “quite exciting,” “Murder My Sweet” is “very uneven and at times vacuous.”

Jean-Pierre Chartier – the other French critic who used the term “film noir” – wrote Americans Also Make Noir Films for La Révue du Cinéma in November of 1946. In that article he discusses three films: “Murder My Sweet,” “Double Indemnity” and “The Lost Weekend.”

The inclusion of "The Lost Weekend" where no murder occurs opens the door to a lot of Psychological Noirs. For instance there is no Murder in In A Lonely Place or Sweet Smell of Success. 

 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, EricJ said:

Sounds like some film student didn't quite have a grasp of the N-word, and thought it referred to "Moody B/W cinematography with lots of shadows".  And yes, credit where it's due, the Sim Scrooge certainly has THAT.

...But, as two pages of discussion have pointed out, that's not necessarily what the film term means.

True that, but in thinking on it, there certainly ARE several elements of "true" noir in the Sim movie.  Not only did it have  "Moody B/W cinematography with lots of shadows",  the Dickens story, despite the bright and uplifting ending, too, had a "dark" element to it.  ;)

Sepiatone

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13 hours ago, GGGGerald said:

I have no problem analyzing (or even over analyzing), films because frankly, isn't that what this board is for ?

No ... no ... it's for posting youtube videos from crackpots, tweets from people no one has ever heard of, and dumping on Trump. Get with the program, man.

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18 hours ago, scsu1975 said:

No ... no ... it's for posting youtube videos from crackpots, tweets from people no one has ever heard of, and dumping on Trump. Get with the program, man.

I think you're mixing up your forums. Off-Topic is the only place that stuff takes place (pretty much).

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Not entirely.  There has been a bit of nastiness here in "General Discussions" concerning postings of who or what some think are or were the "best" something or someone.

Sepiatone

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2 hours ago, TomJH said:

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bingo29.jpg

Beach Blanket Bingo: Surfer Dude Noir.

While I know you were just kiddin' around here Tom, I have to say that there MIGHT actually exist a movie that could legitimately be classified as "Surfer Dude Noir".

Uh-huh, and it starred this guy here...

Big-Lebowski-White-Russian.jpeg

Okay, so maybe The Big Lebowski would be more "Surfer Dude Neo-Nolr", seeing as how it's more modern and in color, but I really think this Coen Bros.' flick would qualify as such, as this film possesses many of the elements that define the Noir category, ya know.

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44 minutes ago, Dargo said:

While I know you were just kiddin' around here Tom, I have to say that there MIGHT actually exist a movie that could legitimately be classified as "Surfer Dude Noir".

Uh-huh, and it starred this guy here...

Big-Lebowski-White-Russian.jpeg

Okay, so maybe The Big Lebowski would be more "Surfer Dude Neo-Nolr", seeing as how it's more modern and in color, but I really think this Coen Bros.' flick would qualify as such, as this film possesses many of the elements that define the Noir category, ya know.

DVD+Blog+Headers+1200x675-March.jpg?form

 

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10 minutes ago, cigarjoe said:

With Noir that is exactly right it all comes down to just opinions, and what works for you.

the-big-lebowski.jpg?w=780

"Really?"

"Really?"

"Shut the **** up, Donny! Really?"

 

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1 hour ago, Sepiatone said:

Ach!

So....what WINE would go best with the movie?  ;)

Sepiatone

Boone's Farm, Thunderbird, MD 2020..... 

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On 11/23/2018 at 8:31 AM, Sepiatone said:

I'll make this quick( since I'm behind my schedule )  but after viewing my DVD of '51's "Scrooge"( or "A Christmas Carol") I had time to spare and took in some of the "features".  And in one of them, saw where the movie was referred to as "A Christmas Noir."

Well, I never thought of the movie in that term, but it does seem to fit.  ;) 

Thoughts?

Sepiatone

Nope. Doesn't fit at all. Come on, people, this is getting ridiculous. Hey, why not say that "Meet Me in St. Louis" is a noir?

Full disclosure: I just read the very first post that started this thread, and haven't even looked at the 3 pages ensuing. Apologies to those who have already said what I just said (and I like to think there were many.)

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On 11/23/2018 at 10:02 AM, Sgt_Markoff said:

Oh, my gawd. :blink:

Yer killing me over here. This really is the dizzy limit!

Why not just stick a knife in my ribs rather than this slow death by a million little cuts?

It stands to reason? What reason? Lack of reason is more like it. Otherwise, I suppose 'Wizard of Oz' is 'children's noir'? The theory is DAFT!!!   :wacko::wacko::wacko:

Yes yes yes.  I agree so much.

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On 11/23/2018 at 10:11 AM, TopBilled said:

Interesting idea. Yes, I think there probably is such a thing as children's noir. THE INNOCENTS (1961) would certainly fit that "category" and so would THE BAD SEED (1956).

No. Just because children are in a movie, or even if a movie is about a child (or children), does not make it a "children's movie". Like the two examples you just gave, which I would never want a child to see. The Innocents and The Bad Seed are not "children's movies". 

And a "children's noir" is a contradiction in terms. 

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25 minutes ago, misswonderly3 said:

Nope. Doesn't fit at all. Come on, people, this is getting ridiculous. Hey, why not say that "Meet Me in St. Louis" is a noir?

Full disclosure: I just read the very first post that started this thread, and haven't even looked at the 3 pages ensuing. Apologies to those who have already said what I just said (and I like to think there were many.)

Oh my yes! I absolutely agree with you here, MissW!

Why, the very NOTION of Meet Me in St. Louis being a film noir is ridiculous, isn't it.

(...I mean everybody knows that real TRUE film noirs are always set in either New York City or L.A., right?!)

;)

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:lol: I guess I'm a stickler and a martinette for such things. I'm one of those guys that freaks out to see someone fold up a road-map improperly. Not quite a Capt. Queeg, but dangerously close to Henry Fonda's character in 'Fort Apache'. I apologize.

But its outlandish to me, to designate every movie with thirty-minutes-or-so of 'downbeat' or 'down-tempo' or 'gloom' or 'things-look-bad-for-the-hero'...as a 'noir'. The term is being bastardized, when we do this.

If 'noir' was that 'ephemeral' and that 'accidental'...well, its almost like saying, 'it doesn't exist as a thing of its own' at all.

And y'know this approach --as convenient as it may seem --mirrors the worst episode in the history of English literary criticism. If we were talking books, we would never leap to such assumptions. That went out long ago. So why commit the self-same error when we talk cinema?

Eh, I need a fresh bottle of fine Irish medication...:unsure:

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On 11/23/2018 at 10:14 AM, TomJH said:

Some fans really like to obsess over whether or not some film can be categorized as some kind of noir. Now it's "Christmas noir."

I don't see fans of other genres doing this, just noir fans. Pretentious pap.

 

Much ado about nothing.

Yes ! Exactly ! Hey, why not suggest that "Wuthering Heights" could be catgegorized as a Western, because it's got a horse in it?

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On 11/23/2018 at 12:17 PM, NipkowDisc said:

it must be alastair sim's climb up the long dark shadowy stairs. you can even see the outside illumination coming through the window and we see a bust in a recessed wall area. what a lonely and dark abode. Victorian dismal. :lol: scrooge locks himself in his bedroom to enjoy some hot porridge. what a dismal and gloomy xmas eve nite.

:D

That's the whole point. Scrooge lives in a "dismal and gloomy" house, he lives a "dismal and gloomy" life. But "dismal and gloomy" does not necessarily equate to noir. 

I swear Dickens would roll over in his grave if he knew of this discussion.

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On 11/23/2018 at 2:24 PM, Fedya said:

My first thought would have been The Window.

Fedya, The Window is a good movie. And yes, I would say it's a "noir". And yes, there's a child featured in it. It's all about the child.

But I don't understand why people don't seem to get that a film with a child in it is not necessarily a "children's movie". It shows, to me, a complete lack of understanding of children and what children's fiction (books or movies) is about.

...not to say that I support children's books and films that are saccharine and have no "bad" things happen in them. That kind of "children's" book or movie is just plain bad.

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Quote

This is the view I have the biggest problem with, because I feel it's narrow-minded to limit a discussion of noir to the postwar era. Noir was happening before the war, during the war and has been in evidence long after the war.

The methodology for neo-noir or proto-noir is simply not the same as noir.

It may "look like it" thanks to the retrospect we enjoy from our position in history.  But I've yet to hear a convincing argument for it. Not on this website, (nor from any source prior to my arrival here).

'Somewhat gloomy films' were certainly conceivable before the end of WWII, and yes, 'somewhat-gloomy-films' were in fact, executed. So what is more reasonable than to say that those titles merely share a vague 'gloomy resemblance' to true noir? How else would it likely fall out?

On the other hoof, what is more preposterous than to attempt to claim that they shared the exact same working conditions which generated noir? Why wouldn't we just tag them 'proto-noir' as a gesture of courtesy and let it go at that?

As for 'Neo-noir' you can put that whole trend down to self-conscious aping. Once someone else makes a style famous, it spawns a horde of imitators.

Quote

The criminal act that is explored is most always murder. Noir=murder, I don't know how many times I have to say it before it finally sinks in.

If you feel you have to repeat it time and time again, then perhaps the notion needs bolstering with more defensible reasoning. Use a Venn diagram if you have to but don't blame us. I (very cordially) ask you this: how bulletproof can a premise be, if in your statement itself there's a phrase like, "almost always"? Well, what does "almost always" mean?

I like my Henry Ford argument. Just because the Model-T was first and just because it was black, doesn't make it the sexiest black-painted-body car design ever built.

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Hmm. Ok, I just read one of cigarjoe's post, which quite flatteringly quotes me in a post I wrote about Christmas films and film noir and how there are some Christmas movies, or at least, films set at Christmas time, which are also noirs.

As I said, I'm flattered that joe quoted me.  And I stick by everything I said in that post.

I have no trouble extending a concept of film noir to Christmas time, or for that matter, to genres that are not normally considered classic "noir". I agree with cigarjoe's "tuning fork" theory ( well, not his, he's quoting that book, "Dark City", or whatever it's called, sorry I'd have to look it up and I'm in a hurry...).

But what I do disagree with is this idea, usually perpetuated by people who have just discovered "film noir" or the idea of "noir", that that particular name (call it style or genre) can be slapped on to just about everything.  It's like  people are, for some reason, delighted with this term "film noir" (which seems to be shortened to just "noir" more and more these days) and think it makes them look smart and knowledgeable if they apply it to just about any old movie.  No.

I get that noir is a much broader concept than, say, Western or musical (hey, we could call "Rocky Horror Picture Show" a "musical noir"). I get the "tuning fork" idea, and actually agree with it. But at some point we have to stop being silly and realize that "film noir" is not a phrase that can or should be applied to every kind of movie ever made, like a kid who wants to keep playing with a new toy. 

come on, people. If everything is "noir", than nothing is.

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