colorizing deserves another shot

[thomasterryjr]

On 1/17/2019 at 6:14 AM, TikiSoo said:

As a professional "colorist" I can tell you 98% of my customers cannot picture described colors in their mind. I would venture to guess that is why some people like colorized movies, they have little imagination.

When I watch B&W films, I "sense" color anyway - just from shade and texture. It was very early that I realized satin clothing makes the wearer look slimmer due to the high contrast tones of the fabric.

I give up.  What is her name?  Also if you have the time, you stated you were a professional "colorist".  Can you give TCM Nation an example of what this photo would look like colorized?  Please and thank you. 

[fxreyman]

There is no real justification too change a black and white film to color except for pure vanity. Remember, long before Ted Turner had the idea for TCM he was a promoter of colorizing old films. He apparently saw the light (no pun intended), or at least whomever worked for him when he launched TCM. Maybe it was Robert Osborne who told him to stop?

Anyhow, why change from black and white to color?

Is it simply due to the fact that many will not want to watch an older B/W film? Or is it because many younger viewers simply will not tolerate watching a B/W film?

[MovieCollectorOH]

34 minutes ago, fxreyman said:

There is no real justification too change a black and white film to color except for pure vanity. Remember, long before Ted Turner had the idea for TCM he was a promoter of colorizing old films. He apparently saw the light (no pun intended), or at least whomever worked for him when he launched TCM. Maybe it was Robert Osborne who told him to stop?

Anyhow, why change from black and white to color?

Is it simply due to the fact that many will not want to watch an older B/W film? Or is it because many younger viewers simply will not tolerate watching a B/W film?

 

[Gershwin fan]

I kind of like some of the colorized films. Laurel and Hardy colorized-

 

[MovieCollectorOH]

As Arsan said, the B&W lighting was an art in itself and that wouldn't carry over well to color. 

Also, the response of the B&W film to natural colors during filming was a chemical process, one that would be different for each formulation, and let's pretend for a moment the batches were actually consistent from run to run.  Assuming the colorists understood this and decided to calibrate it to a specific known film formulation, and assuming that film formulation's color response is known, and pretending B&W film response to color was consistent, or even that there was some differentiation between levels of light and shades of color (remarkably for no other reason than to reverse-engineer it for color later on)...the colors still wouldn't make sense in various ways since some of the colors were specifically chosen for B&W filming.  Strange shades of makeup, etc.  So that leaves us with the creative merit of the color promoters. 

Further thought on this since this topic last came up, B&W leaves more to the imagination, and the imagination can be more profound than reality.   One must draw a line somewhere though, or else there will be nothing satisfactory but old-time radio shows and books.

[slaytonf]

6 hours ago, thomasterryjr said:

I give up.  What is her name?  Also if you have the time, you stated you were a professional "colorist".  Can you give TCM Nation an example of what this photo would look like colorized?  Please and thank you. 

Jean Harlow

[cigarjoe]

8 hours ago, fxreyman said:

Is it simply due to the fact that many will not want to watch an older B/W film? Or is it because many younger viewers simply will not tolerate watching a B/W film?

The latter.

[Dargo]

8 hours ago, fxreyman said:

Is it simply due to the fact that many will not want to watch an older B/W film? Or is it because many younger viewers simply will not tolerate watching a B/W film?

32 minutes ago, cigarjoe said:

The latter.

Yeah, well THAT of course.

(...AND the fact that even YOU, CJ, have to admit that superhero movies look SO much better in color!)

[Arteesto]

Interesting...different makeup techniques for color or black/white.

.

[Dargo]

1 hour ago, Arteesto said:

Interesting...different makeup techniques for color or black/white.

.

Okay, I suppose this graphic helps a bit in explaining the different techniques, B&W vs Color, that makeup artists have used in the past, Arteesto. One question here, though:

WHY in heaven's name would they ever have wanted to accentuate dark circles under any actress's eyes? Never has been "a good look", wouldn't ya say? And even back in the silent era.

(...and 'cause I would think blue grease paint would still photograph as just "dark circles under the eyes" even in B&W, would it not?)

[NipkowDisc]

[Arteesto]

19 hours ago, Dargo said:

Never has been "a good look", wouldn't ya say?

I thought the same thing while posting this picture.

For B/W photography..I don't know why that would be an option

As a side note...Last night I watched a documentary on the making of Grease

Because most of the actors were not high schoolers...they photographed them

with the purpose that they all looked exquisite...it worked.

I found these 1930s examples in B/W...none have the darkness under the eyes:

Also...

[Sepiatone]

19 hours ago, Dargo said:

Okay, I suppose this graphic helps a bit in explaining the different techniques, B&W vs Color, that makeup artists have used in the past, Arteesto. One question here, though:

WHY in heaven's name would they ever have wanted to accentuate dark circles under any actress's eyes? Never has been "a good look", wouldn't ya say? And even back in the silent era.

(...and 'cause I would think blue grease paint would still photograph as just "dark circles under the eyes" even in B&W, would it not?)

I'm not sure if that chart is a guideline for "glamour" and "still" head shots, but rather a guide for obtaining a certain "look" which would be suited for particular parts of a story.  Like, the dark circles might be required to obtain a look of illness or such.  And also depending which color of filter  the cinematographer was using as different colors respond differently in those cases, regardless of being on B&W film.  Recall....they often used CHOCOLATE SYRUP as a blood substitute because IT looked MORE "blood-like" than red did on B&W stock.

Sepiatone

[MovieCollectorOH]

6 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

I'm not sure if that chart is a guideline for "glamour" and "still" head shots, but rather a guide for obtaining a certain "look" which would be suited for particular parts of a story.  Like, the dark circles might be required to obtain a look of illness or such.  And also depending which color of filter  the cinematographer was using as different colors respond differently in those cases, regardless of being on B&W film.  Recall....they often used CHOCOLATE SYRUP as a blood substitute because IT looked MORE "blood-like" than red did on B&W stock.

Sepiatone

Filters.  The plot thickens for my post above.


This probably isn't that closely related, but I thought I'd post it anyhow. 

[TikiSoo]

15 hours ago, MovieCollectorOH said:

This probably isn't that closely related, but I thought I'd post it anyhow. 

I thought the make up for the MUNSTERS was done by a Westmore. In fact, I had a conversation with Butch Patrick about working with the Westmores on that show. 

I will also reveal that on COLOR film, you use different colors on the face to do different things. A yellow crayon type stick under the eyes will counter the purple-y dark circles. Using any shade of blue eye liner will make the eyes "white-er" and any redness less noticeable.

Color is an amazing tool that works great creating illusion on film, a little more noticeable in person.

[MovieCollectorOH]

9 hours ago, TikiSoo said:

I thought the make up for the MUNSTERS was done by a Westmore. In fact, I had a conversation with Butch Patrick about working with the Westmores on that show. 

I will also reveal that on COLOR film, you use different colors on the face to do different things. A yellow crayon type stick under the eyes will counter the purple-y dark circles. Using any shade of blue eye liner will make the eyes "white-er" and any redness less noticeable.

Color is an amazing tool that works great creating illusion on film, a little more noticeable in person.

It looks like Karl Silvera was brought on by Fred Gwynne.  The others in the cast may have used the one(s) you mentioned, and/or regular production staff.

[CinemaInternational]

I enjoyed it a bit when I was younger, am firmly against it now. Maybe its because Roger Ebert's colorization essay

[NipkowDisc]

6 hours ago, CinemaInternational said:

I enjoyed it a bit when I was younger, am firmly against it now. Maybe its because Roger Ebert's colorization essay

have you viewed either the colorized Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House or Chain Lightning?

see them and still oppose colorizing and I will respect your opinion.

 

[Sgt_Markoff]

Sooo racist...can't we get past these old mindsets???

[NipkowDisc]

why does CBS from time to time air newly colorized eps of I love Lucy and The Dick Van Dyke Show?

 

[NipkowDisc]

did anyone notice the colorized decorative markings on the petrie kitchen's oven?

[TikiSoo]

8 hours ago, NipkowDisc said:

did anyone notice the colorized decorative markings on the petrie kitchen's oven?

Wow seeing that made the episode so much better! (sarcasm)

[MovieCollectorOH]

13 hours ago, NipkowDisc said:

why does CBS from time to time air newly colorized eps of I love Lucy and The Dick Van Dyke Show?

 

Out of anything there is that could be colorized, those examples are stupid easy.  2-4 actors and a limited number of small fixed sets that never change - all with with consistent, even lighting.  As close to any "set it and forget it" scenario as you will find.  It wouldn't surprise me if they could colorize an entire season, with only minor tweaks between different filming days.

[NipkowDisc]

9 minutes ago, MovieCollectorOH said:

Out of anything there is that could be colorized, those examples are stupid easy.  2-4 actors and a limited number of small fixed sets that never change - all with with consistent, even lighting.  As close to any "set it and forget it" scenario as you will find.

then you confirm that colorizing is practical...

now this is what tcm could do. show the two colorized films I have mentioned. Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House and chain lightning and let the tcm viewing audience decide. both colorized films were syndicated nationally AND I HAVE NOT SEEN THEM SINCE.

tcm oughta show 'em, both of 'um. let tcm viewers watch a colorized JA-3 shoot up to the upper atmosphere with bogie at the stick. 

"give these things a chance. you'll love them!" -felix, odd couple ep 'take my furniture, please'

[Dargo]

14 hours ago, NipkowDisc said:

why does CBS from time to time air newly colorized eps of I love Lucy and The Dick Van Dyke Show?

 

The answer to this question is pretty easy to figure out here, Nip.

CBS does this as more a "broadcast ratings stunt" than anything else, as first they know some people will be inquisitive as to how well the colorization process done to these episodes will be, and secondly because they also know the majority of the younger set out there wouldn't normally watch anything in B&W if they had their druthers.

However in my view, this process really adds nothing to the enjoyment of these classic sitcoms, as the REAL enjoyment to be found in these classic old sitcoms is primarily from how very funny the DIALOGUE was in them.

And so once again I'll say that IF the colorization process is to be applied to ANYTHING, then PERHAPS the BEST application of it would be to the more scenic outdoor epics and/or to old musicals originally filmed in B&W, and where the DIALOGUE within THOSE runs secondary to the IMAGES and ACTIONS presented within them.

(...but remember here I just said "perhaps" in the above, as personally and in almost all cases I can pretty much take or leave the suggestion about the colorization of films generally, and because IN most cases this process would not enhance MY personal enjoyment of them)