spence

Even if you already hate him, or don't, what did Woody Allen do so wrong?

146 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, cigarjoe said:

Could sound as if she wants a piece of the of pie too

By that, do you therefore mean that she is lying? That's a curious statement in that she is not talking about, say, a single incident, which would be easy to lie about. Her story involves systemic abuse over a long period. Unless you feel she is making the whole thing up. It doesn't read that way to me but of course I don't know.

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36 minutes ago, laffite said:

By that, do you therefore mean that she is lying? That's a curious statement in that she is not talking about, say, a single incident, which would be easy to lie about. Her story involves systemic abuse over a long period. Unless you feel she is making the whole thing up. It doesn't read that way to me but of course I don't know.

I've only heard the accusation made that there was a single incident.

Here's a fairly exhaustive article on the situation, for anyone not up to speed on the specifics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woody_Allen_sexual_assault_allegation

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1 hour ago, hamradio said:

Apparently so did many in the audience thought it was funny, that wasn't exactly booing  I heard through the TV speaker. 

Of course, let's just use a person's reputation as fodder for a stupid joke. Most likely at least half the audience that heard it, believed it. Pathetic.

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3 hours ago, laffite said:

I count at least 15 that are exceptional movies, and handful more that are good. His movies overall may have thematic similarities but he did not make the same movie "over and over again." An careless exaggeration IMO. Even if he did (hypothetically) the actors are different and the same cleverness would be there. That would make them watchable (for me). He is a genius (despite all the psychoanalysis, lol).

I agree laffite. I've enjoyed so many of his films. Funny, intelligent and always watchable. Good post, laffite.

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48 minutes ago, LawrenceA said:

I've only heard the accusation made that there was a single incident.

Here's a fairly exhaustive article on the situation, for anyone not up to speed on the specifics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woody_Allen_sexual_assault_allegation

My comment was based on the link that Andrea Doria posted. That included an open letter to the NYT wherein she says there were repeated instances. I see by reading your link that she has commented at length elsewhere about all this. The "single incident" I gather is the one that was subject of a formal complaint (accusation). I am one of those "not up to speed on the specifics." My response to Cigarjoe's comment above therefore seems not so valid, now. I retract it. It's possible, for instance, that she may embellished some of the history there "for a piece of the pie.". Not saying that she has done that, just that it's possible. 

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I prefer to separate someone's personal life from their professional output.  I think I've only seen one of Woody Allen's films--Annie Hall, but I would watch others.

I think (lesser informed) people like to regurgitate the same old stories they hear about people, often times it seems like they want to look more "woke" (as said online) than those who are praising the person's output.  Allen and Soon-Yi got together and married when she was an adult.  Like what was posted earlier, I suppose it would depend on what the age of consent was in the state where Allen and Soon-Yi resided to determine if an actual crime took place.  However I do not believe that Allen has ever actually been convicted of a crime.  He's being vilified by those who do not agree with how his relationship began and people want to retroactively persecute him for his crimes.

Roman Polanski on the other hand, was convicted of rape and fled the country.  If people want to avoid supporting his career due to his crime (which he pled guilty to), then I suppose that's their prerogative, but at least he was legally convicted of something.

It's the same thing with the alleged crimes or beliefs of old Hollywood stars.  Often times when Errol Flynn is mentioned, people grab the low hanging fruit and immediately start going on about pedophilia and rape.  Flynn was acquitted of all rape allegations and from what I read, the proof that he'd actually committed a crime was tenuous at best.  John Wayne's name is dragged through the mud for his political beliefs.  Just a few months ago, the same thing was happening to Ronald Reagan.  Maybe Wayne and Reagan had their beliefs.  However, how did their beliefs fit in within the context of the society in which they lived?

Someone earlier in the thread compared Allen/Soon-Yi with Bogie and Bacall.  The difference I can see with this relationship is that Allen and Soon-Yi's relationship seemingly began when she was a teenager.  Bacall was a teenager too, but she was legally an adult. I think what some people can't get past the idea that Allen's relationship with Mia Farrow made him somewhat of a step-father like figure, but it appears that Allen and Soon-Yi never had that type of relationship.  Bogart and Bacall never had a familial relationship prior to getting together.  

There are other large age gaps: Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta-Jones, for example; but both parties were adults when they got together. 

Today's environment always calls for boycotts of a person's work (or whatever) if they're even accused of an unsavory activity.   I think it's a shame, only because networks, companies, etc. are forced to fire these people for an accusation, to save face for their own company.  Careers are ruined because of an allegation, not an actual conviction.  I've even read people calling to boycott John Wayne for his political beliefs.  I am sure that Wayne, dead for 40 years, is really feeling the pain from being boycotted by 10 people. 

I prefer to keep the artist's personal life separate from their professional output.  The only person whom I really cannot take seriously now is Bill Cosby.  Cosby was actually convicted of three counts of sexual assault and is currently serving time in prison for his crimes.  Knowing that he's sexually assaulted multiple women really makes it hard for me to take him seriously as a family man in The Cosby Show-- especially knowing that he fired Lisa Bonet for her racy scenes in a film and for a topless spread in a magazine--two projects she worked on as a consenting adult.  Talk about being a hypocrite. 

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Just now, laffite said:

My comment was based on the link that Andrea Doria posted. That included an open letter to the NYT wherein she says there were repeated instances. I see by reading your link that she has commented at length elsewhere about all this. The "single incident" I gather is the one that was subject of a formal complaint (accusation). I am one of those "not up to speed on the specifics." My response to Cigarjoe's comment above therefore seems not so valid, now. I retract it. It's possible, for instance, that she may embellished some of the history there "for a piece of the pie.". Not saying that she has done that, just that it's possible. 

I don't think that Dylan is after any financial gain. In fact, I think she probably believes that the incident occurred, as many people begin to see truth in a story repeated often enough.

Personally, I don't think it happened. I think Mia Farrow was (understandably) emotionally devastated by the Allen/Soon-Yi relationship, and that she coached Dylan to accuse Woody as a form of retribution. Multiple accounts have testified to Mia's horrible temper and mercurial nature, which would put using the child as a way to strike against Allen in the realm of possibility. I've also read that the account of the supposed incident closely mirrors that of an incident that occurred to one of Mia's relatives when Mia was a child, a story that she heard growing up many times.

Combined with the professional analysis and court testimony that ruled in Allen's favor, and the later editorial by Dylan's brother Moses stating that the incident was fictional and concocted by Mia, and I have to side with Allen's innocence in regards to the Dylan abuse allegation.

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4 hours ago, laffite said:

I count at least 15 that are exceptional movies, and handful more that are good. His movies overall may have thematic similarities but he did not make the same movie "over and over again." An careless exaggeration IMO. Even if he did (hypothetically) the actors are different and the same cleverness would be there. That would make them watchable (for me). He is a genius (despite all the psychoanalysis, lol).

I'm afraid I'm going to have to give you one of the highest compliments that I can give anyone-- you're more French than I am. LOL

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I'm not sure I follow. If we were talking about Jerry Lewis, it would make sense since, as you know, the French adored him. Do they also have a fondness for WA movies?

I'm sorry if my response seemed to mock you---didn't intend that, honestly. Actually what you said is a common criticism and I was thinking of those at large who are of that opinion rather than you personally. Je vous pris donc de m'excuser. Merci.

///

 

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9 hours ago, AndreaDoria said:

Dylan Farrow, Woody's adopted daughter claimed, at the time and now that she's grown up, that Woody Allen molested her.

https://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/01/an-open-letter-from-dylan-farrow/

She sounds credible to me.  Now, his new movie starring Jude Law is about a man who has an affair with a fifteen year-old.  Which sort of seems like Allen thumbing his nose at his critics and believing his fans will forgive anything.

I agree with ignoring the private life of actors, directors and producers up to a point.  I don't care if they have affairs or don't bathe on the weekends, but I draw the line at pedophiles and would feel complicit if I spent my money to make them richer.

Andrea, think that was the latest allegation, but given Mia's vengeful temper since 1992/93 one never knows  as I write she even went after some of *SINATRA's estate

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Some may already know this but her dad was a studio-system director & did Wake Island (l942)

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9 minutes ago, spence said:

Some may already know this but her dad was a studio-system director & did Wake Island (l942)

John farrow also did one of my favorites, 1939’s “Five Came Back” starring Lucille Ball and Chester Morris. 

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57 minutes ago, laffite said:

I'm not sure I follow. If we were talking about Jerry Lewis, it would make sense since, as you know, the French adored him. Do they also have a fondness for WA movies?

I'm sorry if my response seemed to mock you---didn't intend that, honestly. Actually what you said is a common criticism and I was thinking of those at large who are of that opinion rather than you personally. Je vous pris donc de m'excuser. Merci.

///

 

Cela ne fait rien. 

The French love clowns and they have a trinity: Charlie Chaplin, Jerry Lewis and Woody Allen. You'll notice whenever Allen needs a little support and succor he goes to Cannes where they fawn all over him.

When I was living in a provincial town one of his movies opened and they had it in two movie theaters, one in English and one dubbed. With Jerry gone, now he's all they've got left. LOL

The film was " Escrocs Mais Pas Trop" and I saw both versions, pas mal.

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7 hours ago, LawrenceA said:

I've also read that the account of the supposed incident closely mirrors that of an incident that occurred to one of Mia's relatives when Mia was a child, a story that she heard growing up many times.

Woody and at least one of his biographers have also alleged that the incident as described by the Farrows mirrors closely the lyrics of a song written by Dory Previn called "Daddy in the Attic", written before Woody and Mia even met. Dory was Mia's friend until Andre divorced her to marry Mia.

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12 minutes ago, sewhite2000 said:

Woody and at least one of his biographers have also alleged that the incident as described the Farrows mirrors closely the lyrics of a song written by Dory called "Daddy in the Attic", written before Woody and Mia even met. Dory was Mia's friend until Andre divorced her to marry Mia.

Maybe that's what I was recalling, something about Mia having heard the story, down to specific details, years earlier. I tried to find a source earlier to no avail. Thanks for the clarification!

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What did he do that was so wrong, you ask?

I'll tell ya what that nerdy little pompous New Yorker did!

He once said in one of his movies (Annie Hall) about Los Angeles, "I don't want to live in a city where the only cultural advantage is that you can make a right turn on a red light!", and so implying my old home town of L.A. is some kind'a "cultural wasteland". 

Yeah, THAT'S what the little nerd did that was "so wrong"!

(...okay okay, NOT sayin' the little nerd MIGHT not have had a point there mind you, but still...…)  ;) 

 

 

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23 hours ago, sewhite2000 said:

 

On 9/29/2019 at 7:58 AM, TikiSoo said:

intimately involved with a 15 year old person is sick.

This is also erroneous. People just throw out these numbers. By all accounts I've ever read, Woody and Soon-Yi began a romantic relationship when he was 56 and she was 22.

 

I wasn't speaking of Woody & Soon Yi specifically.

I was citing a relationship between a 50 y/o and 15 y/o would be considered SICK by most. That is a 35 year gap in age, the same gap as Woody & Soon Yi's ages. 

Anyone can understand a young person being dazzled by a successful, powerful celebrity. The fault lies in the older, supposedly mature person, who should know better and leave the poor girl alone, no matter how enticing it seems.

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20 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

And as(from any info I can find) Previn and Allen's sexual relationship didn't notably begin until she was over 18, it hardly makes the relationship "predatory". 

Uh sorry, still predatory. I wonder how you'd feel if your 22 year old daughter came home with a 57 year old suitor?

In prison, pedophiles are kept separately from all other inmates for their own safety. Criminals tolerate the worst murderers among them but consistently attack pedophiles.

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31 minutes ago, TikiSoo said:

I wasn't speaking of Woody & Soon Yi specifically.

I was citing a relationship between a 50 y/o and 15 y/o would be considered SICK by most. That is a 35 year gap in age, the same gap as Woody & Soon Yi's ages. 

Anyone can understand a young person being dazzled by a successful, powerful celebrity. The fault lies in the older, supposedly mature person, who should know better and leave the poor girl alone, no matter how enticing it seems.

thanx anyway tikiSoo  but that one is well known around 1993 or so, matter of fact he & Mia had just released/made 1992's well made Husbands & Wives (***-out of 4) & in the trailer she says something about them breaking up & the audience laughed   That also  marked the duo's 13th & final film together he did 8 with *Diane Keaton who defends him all the time

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On 9/29/2019 at 7:58 AM, TikiSoo said:

This may be true, but it still crosses the line of "improper behaviour" as far as I'm concerned. Any 50 year old person intimately involved with a 15 year old person is sick. Woody can be a mean, controlling dick on his film set, but how he conducts himself on the job is his business. If the staff doesn't like it, they can leave-he's only controlling their salary.

When those same controlling qualities spill over to an intimate relationship with a child, it's predatory behaviour -a mature adult should know better. Anyone in show business knows the price of negative publicity and the fact Woody did not control & overcome his compulsion shows he is a sick man. He has no shame.

While I still love many of his movies, I will not contribute to his success/wealth by spending money on him. 

I feel the same. I haven't paid money to see any of his films since. I'll watch one occasionally on TCM if I'm in the mood, since I'm not putting money in his pocket to do so.

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19 hours ago, LawrenceA said:

I don't think that Dylan is after any financial gain. In fact, I think she probably believes that the incident occurred, as many people begin to see truth in a story repeated often enough.

Personally, I don't think it happened. I think Mia Farrow was (understandably) emotionally devastated by the Allen/Soon-Yi relationship, and that she coached Dylan to accuse Woody as a form of retribution. Multiple accounts have testified to Mia's horrible temper and mercurial nature, which would put using the child as a way to strike against Allen in the realm of possibility. I've also read that the account of the supposed incident closely mirrors that of an incident that occurred to one of Mia's relatives when Mia was a child, a story that she heard growing up many times.

Combined with the professional analysis and court testimony that ruled in Allen's favor, and the later editorial by Dylan's brother Moses stating that the incident was fictional and concocted by Mia, and I have to side with Allen's innocence in regards to the Dylan abuse allegation.

Sorry, I don't buy that.

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2 hours ago, TikiSoo said:

Uh sorry, still predatory. I wonder how you'd feel if your 22 year old daughter came home with a 57 year old suitor?

 

Probably not as upset as her (when she was that age) 45 year old husband would be.  They married when she was 18 and he was 41.  Lasted 19 years.  ;)  

My main concern in these discussions TIKI, was how Calvin extrapolated my not being sickened by Allen and soon-Yi's relationship with a feeling I approve of inscestuous marriages.  I equated it with those conclusion jumpers who think because I have an aversion to capital punishment that I think all killers should get off "scott free" with murder.  

As to my daughter, when she and Lee got married, almost all the young men her age were walking around with huge untied shoes with the shoe's tongues flopping off the top.  IF you're lucky enough to notice since the pants they were wearing had a few yards of material bunched up around the ankles because the waists of those pants were settled halfway down the buttcheeks. And one out of ten ever bothered to work for a living at the time.

Sepiatone

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7 hours ago, TikiSoo said:

I was citing a relationship between a 50 y/o and 15 y/o would be considered SICK by most. That is a 35 year gap in age, the same gap as Woody & Soon Yi's ages. 

Bogart/Bacall a - 25 years gap in age hypothetically 40 y/o and and a 15 y/o...

 

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