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bhryun

Why the PROFANITY????

75 posts in this topic

I agree with you I don't really like profanity or brief nudity but let's face the facts some people do. So while living in this world we gotta be a little flexible and reach the remote and change the channel...to something with less profanity/sex/violence whatever. I think that Fish Called Wanda was apart of their Oscar thing...which is only once a year. They play all movies even some of the more recent ones.

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Hi Path30a,

 

Well, tcmprogrammer has signed himself out of the debate so it looks like this one is done.

 

I thank your for your suggestions. Much of what you brought up is already addressed in my other posts but I thought there were a couple of loose ends that needed to be addressed.

 

Interestingly enough you and I may be more eye to eye on governmental controls than you seem to think. I have no interest in placing responsibility for my actions in the hands of others.

 

Indeed, attempting to register my point of view with people who may be able to do something about it (tcmprogrammer in this case) is my small attempt to not allow others to control those areas of my life.

 

The V chip is indeed well known. While it certainly has a place in many homes today, especially those with young children, I consider it to be far short of a good and workable solution.

 

The only thing it really does is tell me when I've got to "get off the sidewalk" because someone else is taking it over. I can come back later when they finish playing. IMHO that does not provide due respect for all parties involved.

 

As a true classic movie fan I'm sure you remember the film Gandhi. Early in the movie Gandhi and the Pastor are walking down the street when they run into a gang of local tough guys who want to run Gandhi out into the gutter. They "own the sidewalk" and don't want to permit him (an unworthy Indian) to walk on it. After he is saved from real trouble by the timely intervention of the head "tough guys" mother, Gandhi looks at the man and says "I think you'll find there is room for all." I believe that. There is room for all. But only if we're willing to work together to provide that room.

 

Those that choose to watch films that I choose not to watch, because of the P & E or whatever, have a perfect right to do so. I am not responsible for their choices, only for mine. But, they don't have the right to tell me that I have to "get off the sidewalk." In other words, if I don't like it "change channels, the TV sidewalk belongs to us." Sorry, The "TV sidewalks" belong to all of us. If you need a sidewalk exclusively for yourself, I'm willing to help you build one. Let's get a pay channel (a private sidewalk) for your particular tastes and you can watch what you please when you please. But, don't do your neighbor the disservice of trying to take over the PUBLIC sidewalk. That belongs to all.

 

My definition of PUBLIC TV has been updated to the state of television as it comes to us today. Let me clarify what I mean.

 

In my area, TCM comes along with a slew of other channels (I don't know, 70 or 80) that I get as a package from my cable company. I did not have to make a separate choice to have it, and I could not delete it from the package and get a discounted price. It's just THERE; along with Bravo, The Shopping Channel etc etc. I did not have to make a separate decision or pay extra money to get it.

 

Pay channels, like HBO, Showtime, Playboy etc. require a separate decision and an additional payment. They DO NOT come with the basic package of channels. This gives all of us the opportunity to exercise our freedom of choice. If some particular channel is your cup of tea, go for it. If it's not, leave it alone.

 

As such, I believe TCM and all other channels in the basic package are today's version of PUBLIC TV. In years past you picked up your three local stations on your antenna. Now you get your "local" stations, the whole bunch of them along with your cable package. Times indeed have changed, but it's the same idea.

 

By the way, I went to your website and read your story about your day at TCM. Hey, that must have been fun indeed. Good memories. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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But there's the rub, harveysrabbit. You are paying for cable so therefore it is a pay channel. The FCC already regulates the free channels. TCM and the other 60 or 70 channels you get are not "public." You have to pay to see them. So that argument doesn't hold water.

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Hi brackenhe,

 

 

You're absolutely right. However, I'm not trying to work within or enforce FCC regulations. That's not my point.

 

I'm calling for responsible conduct on the part of AMC management that includes ALL of their viewers, all of the time. They shouldn't have to be "forced" to do that by the FCC or anyone else; including me. They should be doing it on their own.

 

As a viewer of many years, I do not believe recent changes in programming live up to those responsibilities.

 

As do others on this forum, I am voicing my opinions and beliefs in the hope that someone in responsibility will give my views a bit of thought and perhaps modify their recent decisions to make ALL of their programming more acceptable to ALL of us.

 

I may not succeed, but that's one of the chances you take when you exercise your first amendment right to free speech. "Ya says yer piece and ya takes yer chance."

 

As you read in my post, I said "My definition of PUBLIC TV..." I'm working for change within the current system, not just rubber stamping antiquated FCC regulations.

 

When is the last time you drove through a neighborhood where the rooftops were covered with old TV antennas? Whether a dollar bill is exchanged or not, the basic "Cable TV package" represents for most of us what used to be "broadcast" PUBLIC TV. As so many have reminded me here, "times have changed."

 

Thanks for your input.

 

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What amazes me is (if I can add my 2 cents) is the belief that older movies meant "cleaner" movies. Now it is funny to hear my favorite cursor of the old school Jimmy Stewart his dog gone its and darn it I mean I'm sure that was strong language back in the day. Also, those directors of yester year had sexauallly throughout their OLD films. Yes they had the Hays office but before then the movies have always been controversial I mean guys they were shocked over Elvis in the 50s and he is so tame compared to today..... Back to the movies can your deleting box not show Rita Hayworth shaking that beautiful head of hair you know that was considred offense back then. I do agree with everyone we are all right or wrong I mean I wouldn't let my chilren see certain films but when they come on without warning it is discerning but one can chage the channel. Don't you see harvey one day what you find acceptable might be banned? How would that make you feel? What you find tame may not be tame enough those who censor others eventually censor themselves. A Fish Called Wanda is hilarious and potentially offensive and in places uncomfortable (the speaking Russian scene) but it is overall watchable I belive with your filter. Well, it might edit the unintentional cruelty to animals or the stuffing of objects into one of the characters nose. I found it overall funny and watchable. I mean those older movies you hold so dear are peppered with other potentially offensive movies made at the sametime by the same studios and some of those non-offensive actors.

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But harveysrabbit--I could apply your argument of "the sidewalk" to what you're doing. I know you're trying to save me from myself but please. I'm doing just fine on my own and if I burn in hell then that's the chances I take. And you keep referring to AMC when this is the TURNER CLASSIC MOVIES forum not AMERICAN MOVIE CHANNEL (I refuse to call it classic anymore.) And it's not like this is Cinemax. They showed A Fish Called Wanda late at night with the appropriate warnings before the movie started. So take your misplaced morality and superiority somewhere else. We don't need you on this "sidewalk."

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I think gwtwbooklover hit it right on the head. What we look back at today as clean movies, may have been quite racy in their day. Remember the hubbub with GWTW for "Frankly, my dear I don't give a ....(dont' want to offend). We today look at that as nothing, but back then it took fines, and approval to get that in the movie. So, should that not be shown on TV, or only after a certain hour?

 

Most importantly people need to realize that if you start to ban something you don't like, eventually if will effect something you do like, and don't want to be banned.

 

Certainly voice your opinion about it, but we need to be our own censors, and if you don't like something for whatever reason, don't watch or buy it.

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Harvey, one of the responsibilities of an adult in a free society is to take responsibility for your actions. So you want these wonderful TCM movies to be censored just so you can run them in a corner of your screen while doing other stuff and never be offended if you casually glance at them? That's like saying I can never use my lawn mower, even at 2 in the afternoon because you MAY feel like taking a nap and it would disturb you!

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Ye cats!

 

Well, I was doing the waffle on whether to add my comments to this, but I can't resist. Folks, I've got a nine year old that has better manners. Ask any of my friends that know her and if you want phone numbers, I will provide them. There is absolutely no reason to bring obviously personal vendettas into a discussion. I don't agree with harveysrabbit here, but the other sniping that's been going on is disgraceful. If you have a grudge against another poster, take it elsewhere. Not every post need be Hemingway in form, but for pete's sake - calm yourselves!

 

harveysrabbit - you must not watch too many Pre-Codes because some of them are hot hot hot without the use of profanity or nudity. TCM has a guide available online with the particular codes that signify Mature or otherwise. Or, as others have mentioned, use that V-Chip. Our newest television has it already installed, and if I wanted to flip it into effect I would. That way you would not be surprised.

 

I'm always a bit suspicious of those that think for the greater good that certains type of movies should not be viewed, certain types of music should not be played, certain types of art should not be shown. I remember when that whole Mapplethorpe (sp?) exhibition uproar was going on. I didn't care for his artwork, but that doesn't mean I thought it shouldn't be exhibited. I just chose not to go to that particular show when it came to town. That always smacked of McCarthyism to me...that some people took up the cause to ban the artwork for the 'greater public'.

 

I'm an individual, with my own heart, mind, body and soul. With my mind I can make my own decisions. The USA was founded on such sensibilites, the hatred of not being free against an unjust government. Thank heavens we are free to express ourselves, there would have been no Civil Rights Movement and God help us all if that did not occur. At the same token, you are an individual with your own beliefs, and while they are not mine you are free to express them. Let's just try and throw some, even if we all have to fake it, respect in the topic, shall we?

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I don't want the movies I see cut and edited, case in point, The Front Page (1974)with Walter Mathau and Jack Lemmon. Mathau uses plenty of profanity and it's all part of his character. If it is cut out you loose his character and the movie is not worth seeing. If you sanitize war, life, and history then the lessons are lost and we just repeat the same errors, never growing or learning from our mistakes. This is all that i'm going to post on this topic, so no need to respond, I'm just giving my two cents. Keep up the good work TCM, you are the best channel on including HBO and Showtime!

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reminds me of the story about the participants in Monty Python, who had the BBC censor one of their sketches, when the participant [Graham Chapman I think] in a skit said his hobbies were....well that other word for "onanism", and strangling animals.

 

The BBC left in the animal strangling part, but bleeped the first word, which starts with "m" if you are not biblically erudite.

 

I had to go back to the first post in this thread, to see what this brouhaha was all about. The poster stated that he had been "ambushed" by the "profanity" in "A Fish Called Wanda" and that said poster was "startled" by "curse words vomiting their way into the living room" and then asks if this is not a concern of anyone else.

 

Well, franky my dear, no, it is not. I have total faith in TCM and know that they only show worthwhile films, which never smack of sheer commercialism, and hence whatever I see or hear is usually understandable. Unless you are hoping to see reruns of "The Donna Reed Show". Notice I didn't say "Leave It to Beaver" because that show had some grit and reality, but the Donna show was a creme puff paradise of saccharine sweet situations.

 

Firstly, let's define "profanity".

 

The dictionary states:

 

"pro?fan?i?ty ??

 

1. The condition or quality of being profane.

2. a. Abusive, vulgar, or irreverent language.

b. The use of such language."

 

Note...according to this definition, the tv show "Roseanne" could be considered "profane" as it was quite abusive, as was Ralph Kramden of "The Honeymooners", and as are some of the more prominent televangelists and other religious figures who vent on tv, and most Monty Python episodes which aired on Public Television, which were definitely irreverent. Vulgar could be anything from watching Bea Lillie dance on the Ed Sullivan Show to seeing Jessica Simpson burp on her reality show.

 

Now...let's define "nudity":

 

"nu?di?ty

 

1. Having no clothing; naked.

2. Permitting or featuring full exposure of the body: a nude beach.

3. Unclothed as in a human figure, used for an artistic representation."

 

I am pretty appalled myself by what appears on regular cable channels, with gyrating, mostly unclothed morons on the E-Channel, and ads for "Girls Gone Wild" [but as yet no "Boys Gone Wild" dvd's] but I have never seen anything on TCM, which does not have some semblance of gravitas or comedic value, regardless of its nearness to the definition of profanity or nudity.

 

To deny any scenes of nudity, would remove an important scene from a great film like "The Pawnbroker" and smacks of the attempts in the past to have diaperlike drapery put on Michelangelo's characters in the Sistine Chapel. What's next...putting a brassiere on the Venus de Milo, since someone can't handle seeing it at the Louvre and feels "ambushed" that it is right out in public?

 

To kindly put it...grow up! Everyone is nude under their clothes, and the sooner you learn this, the less you will be shocked at, if you have to visit someone in the hospital, or if you see a dog with no pants on, or if you go to the circus and are shocked by an elephant, who did not have Disney animate it.

 

TCM is a movie channel for world cinema. World cinema is not like watching a Mary Kate and Ashley Olson film, which has superfluous sex scenes, which I would not want to see either. TCM films are full of life, and occasionally real life has nudity and profanity, even if it is in only small measures.

 

The boxed set of Monty Python has the silly insets of some undressed women, that get expurgated on tv occasionally, which are so tame as to probably not be offensive to my grandmother.

 

TCM shows exact recommendations at the start of each film, for which audience it is intended for. Any adult over 21, who says they are a movie fan, and goes into watching a film with Monty Python participants like "A Fish Called Wanda" and is shocked and thinks they were "ambushed", is reminiscent of Shakespeare's line...:"The lady [or man] doth protest too much." It would be wrong for any Monty Python film NOT to offend!

 

I've seen no movie on TCM that has ever transgressed the boundaries of decorum, unless one is offended by seeing men in drag as in "Some Like It Hot" which might offend someone, if they are looking for something to be offended by....

 

Keep showing great world cinema and minor classics, TCM and don't worry about those who would put a kilt on Michelangelo's David or stop Rhett from saying "Damn" or make sure Rhoda Penmark dies at the end of "The Bad Seed".

 

That's more than two cents worth, but I'm not here to see countless repeats of "Savannah Smiles" or "The Making of Left Behind".

 

Keep up the good work, TCM!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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after getting through some of the hard spots (only finished high school, had to work to help support the family) I found that you were in the groove about all this so called profanity on TCM and am glad to see such support for our beloved classic movie station.

May it continue to progress.

 

Mongo

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I didn't want to respond to this topic at all, but I have to agree with silentfan66, that the "sniping that's been going on around here is disgraceful."

 

I'm so tired of and thoroughly disgusted with discussions that lead to nasty comments and plain cruelty. Remember folks this is the TCM MESSAGE BOARD - not the Senate. So let's try and keep the peace. And some of you who've been here a long time might consider the fact that a "new" member such as the one who started this discussion might be LOOKING for an argument.

 

And I'm not saying that this person should not be addressed, but as soon as the person becomes insulting, or just plain ignorant with their comments, I suggest we END THE DISCUSSION.

 

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I agree with your sentiments, moviejoe79. I do. I was part of this heated discussion early on and should have backed out when this poster, who came from nowhere, insulted me. I just wish I had that kind of restraint, but I'm not one to back down from a fight. Never have been, sometimes to my detriment. Not to start another argument, but you say that this is a "message board-not the Senate." OK, then if things get heated from time to time, well, that HAPPENS when opinions fly. I enjoy the TCM Message board immensely, but as you say it ISN'T the Senate, so I take it a bit less seriously.

 

I do apologize for not restraining myself, but I feel that if a thread is going southward, as a few here have done, the best thing would be to ignore it and find a thread that better suits you....or even better, try to steer things back on course. I honestly prefer to take any arguments off of this message board, and deal with it person to person. But I'm not going to let someone insult me here and then just turn the other cheek. I do appreciate this board and the people on it, though, and again, apologize for my part in this discussion.

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After finally taking the time to read this entire thread, I'm reminded of the words of Abraham Lincoln when he said: "You can please some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."

or to paraphrase, everybody gets miffed sometimes. Grow up and get over it!

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"Grow up and get over it." THIS is what I'm talking about. That could also be construed as a personal attack. Now tell me, gypsy, how does your righteous indignation advance this discussion? I give up. Thanks for the history lesson, though.

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My reply was not directed to any particular participant in the discussion, it just happened to follow yours Keith, and far from righteous indignation, I was registering more boredom than anything else. To swear or not to swear (occasionally on TCM), that is the question. My point was that it's a no win discussion. Frankly I find it rather a moot and silly point to try and protect our young from the infrequent use "inappropriate" language on TCM. Just walk through any public place where kids gather, schools, malls, McD's, and the foulest language you hear is coming out of their mouths. It makes me wonder whether those with "virgin" ears ever get out much, and how they react when they do. As far as the also infrequent times one may see the occasional breast on TCM; any child who was breast fed in this country knows what they look like, and those that weren't will have to find out sometime. To those adults who find either of these things offensive, they can cover their ears, cover their eyes, or simply turn to their companion and say "Oh my gosh, wasn't that simply awful? I'm so offended, I just don't know what that TCM is coming to." But to angst about it ad nauseam seems like overkill, and completely unrealistic given the times.

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THEREALFLUSTER

I agree with.

 

and add if you see a movie w/nudity or profanity turn the channel oyu don't have to watch.

Sometimes scenes that have profanity or nudity ar in there to relay the scene completely and honestly. Sometimes the scenes are beautiful somtimes they are hurtful but which ever one most movies wouldn't be the same w/out them.

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Now here I go off track but I have to tell that there is a Boys gone wild coming out I read about it in my newspaper some months ago which honestly surprised me to be reading it in the paper. Not meaning to offend therealfuster referred to it in their post. BTW I enjoyed reading the post.

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Regarding Jimmy Stewart and cursing, he let's off about one each of the two milder four-letter words in "The Flight of the Phoenix" (original and best version, natch). That kind of caught me off guard when I first saw it. I don't think he said anything like that in "The Shootist." I'm kind of weak on his later films beyond these two, so I don't know if he said anything "worse" in other films.

 

A lot of older actors who never cursed in their earlier movies had no qualms about doing so by the time the 1960s and '70s came along. Take James Cagney in "One, Two, Three"; although he probably cursed more often, I doubt he said anything worse there than Stewart did in TFOTP. William Holden in "Network" is just one of many examples of older actors saying about every word in the book once Hollywood's standards loosened and the Production Code went out the window.

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Wow, what a mess... Sounds like a heated argument instead of a civil debate, I haven't read this whole thread, but have gathered that the subject is about the profanity in TCM movies, is that correct? If I am correct in assuming that is what the topic of this discussion is about, I would have to chime in on the side, that Profanity, nudity, and sexuality is totally unnecessary for a movie, or tv show to be entertaining. A good show is based upon how well the story is, and how well it is acted out, if you absolutely can not live with out Cuss words, nudity, or Sexuality in your entertainment, may I suggest a trip to the local porn shop in your area. In my opinion, and that is all it is , an opinion Vulgarness degrades the quality of the movie, or tv show, and shows a lack of creative intelligent, people easily, and quickly buy into the whole sex, and violence scam, and sell out to it, instead of insisting that the programing be of good quality. I can name some really great shows, that are very entertaining, and didn't need to use sex or violence to sell it, but depended on a thing called talent, wich seem to be lacking in alot of todays entertainment. Well thats my 2 cents worth.

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I'm going to make what I hope is the last word on this subject--roostersass, by reading all the posts you'll see why this discussion degenerated. I think the original poster had legitimate concerns (while I kind of just told them to grow up--which was inconsiderate.) However, someone who's not a regular poster thought they'd take the whole of American culture to task on this board and particularly about TCM and many of us who love this channel and the movies they show were mightily upset. I think TCM shows the cream of the crop and while some of the newer films they show have some "profanity" those films are usually shown late in the evening with the appropriate warnings. But I don't think anyone here (maybe I shouldn't speak for everyone) should be castigated because they like good films. I don't really even pay attention to it anymore, it doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that someone wants to tell us what we should and shouldn't watch, when most TVs have an off button. I don't buy into any other argument when everyone has the free will to either change the channel or block it entirely. That's it. I'll say no more.

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I was rereading this entire thread, since I missed some posts before and could not access them when I first answered, but I think I don't get this reference you are using to "666".

 

What is this "666" in reference to, Classicsfan? Could you elaborate for me what the point is in reference to this "Delores"?

 

Seven being a magic number, the number 6 was used biblically to show a step just below greatness, and to use three "6"s in a row, was to amplify the power contained in the being or object. It is not in essence, naturally a pejorative, but I still don't understand the meaning as you are using it in this thread about profanity on TCM, Classicsfan.

 

Reading more of the posts, does make me wonder if TCM would get complaints about films on witch burnings or diabolic possession, as dangerous fodder for programming also.

 

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Let me give the horse a final kick. To those who want to Disneyize everything; I think that one of the greatest movies ever made, "The Godfather" , could never be made under such restrictions. I for one would be distressed to see it changed into "That Darn Sollozo."

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