yogiboo

Why No Beatles Films on TCM?

603 posts in this topic

Just a quick insertion here...

 

Sepia, much earlier in this baby and when the topic had veered a bit, you mentioned that back in the day you thought Johnny Rivers "sounded black". Well, I STILL think the guy sounded like a good ol' southern white boy, however the reason I brought this subject back is because the other day while driving my truck, the Spencer Davis Group's "Give Me Some Lovin'" came on the radio, and if ANY white boy ever "sounded black" it sure was Steve Winwood, and back in the day and when that song first it the airwaves, I, like you with Johnny Rivers, thought The Spencer Davis Group was a Motown act.

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But finance, Neil Young's song-writing and guitar-playing is not "a lot better" than George Harrison's. Not worse, either. Just very different.

 

I never knew anyone who loved making these definitive comparisons as much as you do.

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Dargo, we here in the D knew Spencer Davis wasn't a Motown act, but there WERE some who also thought Winwood was black. I also said this about TOM JONES.

 

But perception is in the mind of the beholder(s). My wife, a decade my senior, recounted the time when many kids' parents (and some kids, too) thought ELVIS was black. Also, she claimed, there were plenty who voiced surprise that CLYDE McPHATTER wasn't white!

 

Sepiatone

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To me, Harrison was basically along for the ride on Lennon and McCartney's coattails, while Neil Young is one of the greatest talents in rock history. Is that definitive enough for you?

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In the areas of songwriting and guitar playing I favor Harrison over Young but only by a small margin.

 

But Harrison is a lot better singer (both lead and back-up), than Young. A lot better.

 

If Young is indeed one of the greatest talents in rock history, Harrison is also. Anyone with the song Something as part of their legacy is, well, something!

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>To me, Harrison was basically along for the ride on Lennon and McCartney's coattails, while Neil Young is one of the greatest talents in rock history. Is that definitive enough for you?

 

George Harrison was definitely not "along for the ride". He was there, right from the very beginning, a 15-year-old who skipped school so he could practise guitar every day and hang out with Paul. In fact, George taught Paul a few guitar tips (not the other way around.)

 

He was part of the Beatles before they were the Beatles, and went with the others to the rough divey clubs of Hamburg when he was still underage. Like the others, he honed his guitar-playing skills playing in front of very tough audiences, night after night.

 

He was an exceptionally inventive and skilled guitar player. And while he was not as prolific as John or Paul when it came to song-writing, the songs he did compose were just as good. And I believe his solo work proves he had great song-writing chops, which came to the fore after the Beatles split up.

 

How come you always have to say someone is better than someone else, or this or that song is "the best"?

A lot of the time these things really are a case of apples and oranges.

 

There is lots of mediocre music that we can diss, if you want to do that. But to speak so disparagingly of George Harrison is not only unfair, the things you say of him are untrue. I get the feeling a lot of the time that your judgements of music and musicians can be very superficial, based on a snap impression.

 

Edited by: misswonderly on Mar 29, 2014 5:57 PM

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Harrison and McCartney would have their share of disagreements over the years. Towards the end of the Beatles, he and Ringo would be at the sidelines shaking their heads in wonder while Lennon and McCartney went at each other. That discord between Lennon and McCartney was the main inspiration for Harrison's song "I, Me, Mine". It was said neither Lennon or McCartney though much of the song, possibly because they didn't like the mirror it held in front of them.

 

Harrison often did get some "help" from McCartney, as Macca WAS the more "trained" musician, and a person Harrison always looked up to. The guitar intro to "Day Tripper" is one example. But largely it was amicable and inclusive in collaboration. Harrison's was an easy going personality, and not prone to making waves, so he pretty much went along with a lot of things just to keep the boat from rocking. Ringo at times felt left out of it all. When he'd ask, "What do you want ME to do?", Lennon and McCartney would simply tell him, "Just do what you do. It'll be fine."( Max Roach once got the same response from Charlie Parker. When Parker was going over what he wanted done with all the other musicians, Roach would ask the same question. Parker replied, "You already KNOW what to do. You don't worry me.")

 

I honestly believe Lennon and McCartney had mutual respect and admiration for one another. Which is why the relationship got so toxic at one point. I've seen( and personally experienced) the same sort of thing with divorcing couples. After the Beatles broke up, the two eventually patched things up. There was a story that the two of them were watching SNL in Lennon's Dakota apartment one night when Harrison was on the show. They thought briefly about going to Rokefeller Center to shake things up a bit, but it was Lennon who decided against it. "We both treated George a bit unfairly in the past, and showing up would take something away from him. It wouldn't be fair to him"

 

Sepiatone

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Paul had no more musical training than George had. True, Paul's father was a professional musician. But while the ear for music and the natural talent seemed to rub off onto his son, the formal music knowledge Mr. McCartney had acquired did not.

Paul was no better and no more musically educated than George or any of the others.

They all just figured it out as they went along. They did share ideas of course, but I would say that George and his guitar-playing ideas and abilities did just fine, with or without a little help from his friends.

 

I realize I'm coming across as some kind of fanatical George Harrison supporter.

I actually love all four Beatles (as musicians), and am fully aware of how talented the others were.

It's just that a theme seems to have emerged here, with several posters claiming or implying that George was somehow not quite up to par as the others.

I have acknowledged that he was not the main song-writing force in the group.

But when it comes to his abilities as a guitarist, he was second to none. He contributed hugely to the Beatles' sound, especially that "ringing" jangly guitar sound that American musicians loved so much and tried to copy.

Roger McGuinn once asked George how he got that sound. The secret was George's 12-string electric guitar (the Rickenbacker.)

George was the first to use a 12-string electric, which gave the Beatles that full "ringing" sound so identified with them. This was George's idea, not Paul or John's.

 

Also: with regard to what someone (I think james) said a while back about how George was relatively ordinary until he befriended Eric Clapton.

Again, just not so. George was Eric Clapton's equal, he just did not have as spectacular a style. George inspired Eric, musically, as much as the other way around.

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Well I think both finance and you are overstating your respective cases.

 

One thing to remember is that Harrison was the youngest member of the band. Therefore he had the most room to grow. Therefore it isn't a knock on Harrison to say that he was mostly a 50's guitar (Buddy Holly Carl Perkins) type imitator until after the band stopped touring and Harrison had more time to develop and mature, both as a guitarist and songwriter.

 

But Harrison being ?equal? as a lead guitar player to Clapton back in 1967? I?m fairly sure that if Harrison was alive he would say it wasn't close. Clapton has said that Harrison helped him in the area of songwriting and singing. So yea like most musician that bond, they helped each other but Clapton had blues chops that Harrision just didn't have at that time.

 

PS: This 'who is better' stuff can get silly and I think you made a great point about apples and oranges. All the musicians being discussed have abilities. Some where better at one thing than another (of course), but that doesn't mean that any one person was the better musician.

 

Edited by: jamesjazzguitar on Mar 30, 2014 1:32 PM

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You have to realize, from my prior posts. that I've never been as much of a Beatles' fan as the the rest of you, so Harrison is dragged down with them. I'm not speaking disparagingly of him. He seemed like a very nice man. But I've always been a huge Neil Young fan, and even his whiny voice sends chills up my spine. As far as my making qualitative comparative judgments, hey, that's what makes life fun. You, too, can be judgmental .You have said you didn't like disco, and I suggested you haven't even heard the best of disco. Disco records, unlike other genres of music, broke out primarily in the disco clubs, and many of the best cuts were barely ever heard on the radio, with very limited sales. I just gave a list of my 16 favorite disco songs to my spinning instructor, who DOES know and like disco, and she had never heard of a single one of them.

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Okay, remember this date, everybody: March 30, 2014.

 

(...a new record in the length of a reply from our friend finance here!) LOL

 

;)

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yeah...and I was the one who inspired it.

 

48px-Face-Plain-120px.png

 

Ok, fi, I'll get around to checking out some of those disco tunes you suggest sometime soon. (heh heh "soon" can mean anything.)

No, I will. Some time when I'm doodling around on youtube. Promise.

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>But Harrison being equal as a lead guitar player to Clapton back in 1967? Im fairly sure that if Harrison was alive he would say it wasn't close. Clapton has said that Harrison helped him in the area of songwriting and singing. So yea like most musician that bond, they helped each other but Clapton had blues chops that Harrision just didn't have at that time.

 

Guess what james? I'm not going to argue with you, because you're right. I would never even try to claim that Harrison was in the same league as Clapton in terms of virtuosity, speed, and "blues chops".

But also as you said, it's like apples and oranges.

Their styles are very different.

 

I agree, George would probably be the first to credit old "Slowhand" with amazing ability, some would argue second only to Hendrix. (O no, here we go again...?)

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>yeah...and I was the one who inspired it.

 

Well then MissW, consider yourself our new resident "Good Influence" for our resident "Bad Influence" around here...'cause I DO often wish finance would more often elaborate upon some of his astute and cleverly written observations and suppositions around here!

 

(...though I suppose those Disco spin classes of his CAN be rather addicting and thus leaving little room in his busy schedule, huh!) ;)

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Harrison was regarded as a class guitarist by many budding young novices LONG before he picked up that electric 12-string. He didn't get ahold of that thing until AFTER the Beatles were a well established, legendary group. But, it WAS an inspiration to many, like McGuinn, who didn't realize Harrison WAS playing a 12-string until he noticed all the extra tuning keys on the headstock. The Rickenbacker 12 has a unique design in which six of the keys are placed sideways, giving it the LOOK of a six string when looking at it "head on".

 

@ finance: I usually claim to dislike several genres of music, but in most cases, I admit that there were a few songs here and there in those genres that I DO like. For instance, I claim to "hate" Rap, but I DID like oldsters like "Fly Girls" and Baby Got Back". I claim to dislike Country, but I DO like Bluegrass, and a few Randy Travis tunes. But, I NEVER, EVER heard any Disco tune that became a "guilty pleasure" for me. And I doubt I ever will.

 

Sepiatone

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Sorry dark, but the only version of that song I like is the one Jimmy Fallon and Justin Timberlake do when they're doin' their "The Barry Gibb Talk Show" skit on SNL!

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Hendrix. Great guitarist . Some great songs. Clapton. Great guitarist. Some great songs. Neil Young. Great guritarist. Many great songs. Harrison. He. like the Beatles, didn't do much for me. The closest I've come to **** over the principals was some of Lennon's and McCartney's solo work. So sue me. Remember that any artist's relative excellence is a matter of opinion, rather than fact.

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> Remember that any artist's relative excellence is a matter of opinion, rather than fact.

 

Exactly, finance ! But ironically, you often state what is "a matter of (your) opinion" in a way that makes it sound like you think it's fact.

 

Now, I'm not one for all this "in my humble opinion", and "hope nobody minds if I disagree with them" rubbish. Yes, it's usually a given that whatever the poster is saying is their opinion (unless of course they state "this is a fact".)

But I have to say, somehow the way you "express your opinion" often comes out sounding like you believe it's hard core fact. (In my humble opinion.) :l

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Joe Strummer. Average guitarist. Co-wrote some marvelous songs,

simply marvelous.

 

I've always like Young's guitar playing and his distinctive high-pitched

voice. Sounds what I imagine Truman Capote would sound like if

he became a vocalist.

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Well I don't agree that a musician's excellence is just based on opinion.

 

What is opinion is what skills define excellence or not and what one finds pleasing to one's ear. For example, the ability to read music. This is a skill that can be measured. If I was hiring a musician to play in a jazz band excellent reading music skills would be a requirement.

 

Some musicians have the ability to solo while other don't. Understanding if someone has this skill or not is a major factor when forming a band, especially a rock band, and who does what in said band. (and having a guitar player that LOVES to solo and solo is the major reason many amateur bands break up!).

 

Many rock and blues guitar players can only solo if the song stays in one key (some only if the key is E), or use only the pentatonic scale. This lack of skill reflects their ability as a musician, but generally not how 'good' their solo is to a listener.

 

Yes, what we find pleasing to our ear is 100% subjective, but what is pleasing or not to one's ear often doesn't have a whole lot to do with one's excellence as a musician.

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>Well I don't agree that a musician's excellence is just based on opinion.

 

 

What? ! When did I say that? Where did I say that?

I think your comment there must have been intended for finance.

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Miss W.----How can one objectively determine the excellence of a musician?---- (Is there any way to respond to a particular user or post?

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