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Rick2400

Fred MacMurray

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In THE CAINE MUTINY  Lt  Keefer (Fred Mac)  may be a contemptible coward but at least he's an honest one. ---  (pregnant pause)  ---  When Keefer goes with Maryk and Keith over to the flag ship to see the Admiral at the last moment he (Keefer) chickens out. He won't go with the others to report Queeg's  bizarre behavior to the Admiral,  Keefer's  a coward. But he readily admits his cowardice to his fellow officers (and presumably his friends).  "I've got a yellow streak a mile wide",  or words to that effect Keefer says.  So no one, Maryk, Keith, or we the audience shouldn't be surprised by Keefer's later behavior on the ship or in the court room.  So I would call Keefer the villain, or the "light" heavy,  in this story.

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So I would call Keefer the villain, or the "light" heavy,  in this story.

 

Hmmmm..."Light Heavy" ya say, eh Mr.R?!

 

So, in essence, what you're sayin' here is that IF Keefer wouldn't have ALSO probably been too afraid to step into the ring, he'd PROBABLY would have fought on the undercard to the main event, RIGHT?! 

 

(...sorry...yeah I know...quite a reach with this one, huh!) ;)

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Fred's last movie was 'THE SWARM' in 1978.  Even actors who didn't need the money couldn't escape the clutches of Irwin Allen and his disaster flicks!   

 

   

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Tom,  are you so sure that the shame Fred displays at the celebration party is shame over his behavior OR shame at being caught? I think it's shame at being caught. All through the story he is aware of who and what he is,and aware of his selfish motives in all this and yet continues to cover up his actions by his lying. To me that is villainous, not just cowardly.  His awareness of what he is doing is what makes him the villain. He would sooner see the lives destroyed of his shipmates then own up to his part in the mutiny.

 

Not much difference in his role as the villain here or in The Apartment. In both, he wants what he wants and it doesn't matter who gets hurt and destroyed as long as he gets what he wants. No difference, equally villainous imo

 

btw, glad you agree that Villain and Heavy are interchangeable :)

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Tom,  are so sure that the shame Fred displays at the celebration party is shame over his behavior OR shame at being caught? I think it's shame at being caught.

Well, lavender, I was thinking of the way that Fred was acting sheepish at the celebration party BEFORE he was exposed as a louse in public by Ferrer. To me that denoted a guilty conscience, something that I can connect with a coward, for sure, rather than a villain.

 

For Fred to lose his nerve and develop a beak and feathers (as Woody Allen might term it), leaving Van, whom he had influenced into mutinying, out to dry alone is totally contemptible. But I think of it as the behaviour of a deeply flawed individual rather than a villainous manipulator who had the intentions of doing that all along, even before the mutiny occurred.

 

There's no question, however, that we are in complete accord on the definitions of heavy and villain being one and the same.

 

My Coles Concise Dictionary gives the following definition, among many, for the word heavy:

 

Theatre a serious, tragic or villainous role

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Gotta say here that I can see DGF's point, as I too have watched THE CAINE MUTINY many a time myself, and while Fred's character is DEFINITELY a "low-down dirty and gutless back-stabber", I TOO have a hard time thinking of him as "a Heavy" in the same sense as, say, an out and out "criminal" type.

 

And in fact, because Jose Ferrer's character "outs" him near the end of the film, and because Fred's character seems to readily acknowledge his own "inadequacies" as a stand-up guy during that scene, THIS is why I have some reservations as to defining his character as "a Heavy".

 

(...sorry all the rest of you here, but you know ME...I gots ta calls 'em as I sees 'em, and regardless what Mr. Webster and/or Messrs Funk and Wagnall says)

The dictionary is just another book. I maintain a "common usage" dictionary in my head. Based on the "smell test", MacMurray in THE CAINE MUTINY is not a heavy. He is not even a villain. He just won't win any "good citizenship" awards.

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Well, lavender, I was thinking of the way that Fred was acting sheepish at the celebration party BEFORE he was exposed as a louse in public by Ferrer. To me that denoted a guilty conscience, something that I can connect with a coward, for sure, rather than a villain.

 

For Fred to lose his nerve and develop a beak and feathers (as Woody Allen might term it), leaving Van, whom he had influenced into mutinying, out to dry alone is totally contemptible. But I think of it as the behaviour of a deeply flawed individual rather than a villainous manipulator who had the intentions of doing that all along, even before the mutiny occurred.

 

There's no question, however, that we are in complete accord on the definitions of heavy and villain being one and the same.

 

My Coles Concise Dictionary gives the following definition, among many, for the word heavy:

 

Theatre a serious, tragic or villainous role

So MacMurray is also a heavy in THE APARTMENT?

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Here is part of an interview with PEOPLE magazine Fred MacMurray did Nov 18, 1991

 

Though in later years he admitted regretting those nasty roles because he feared they made viewers dislike him, he also knew what it was about his acting style that made him so effective as a VILLAIN.

" Whether I play a HEAVY or a comedian",he said, I always start out as smiley, a decent rotarian type, If I play a HEAVY, there comes a point in the film when the audience realizes I'm really a heel"

 

I doubt you can name a film Fred played a violent type,tough gangster type and yet FRED describes some of the roles as a HEAVY. His definition doesn't seem to fit the one given by DGF, Dargo or Movie Madness, DGF, Movie Madness and Dargo, disagree all you want, I'm with FRED MACMURRAY on this one :)

Yes, imo Fred was the HEAVY in The Apartment DGF you might want to read this to answer your question about Fred MacMurray and HIS take on HIS playing THE HEAVY in films

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So MacMurray is also a heavy in THE APARTMENT?

 

Great pointed question here, DGF. Because, IF Fred's Sheldrake character in THIS film IS a "heavy" or "villain", then would this not ALSO make Ray Walston's Dobisch and David Lewis' Kirkeby characters "heavies/villains"?

 

AND, whereas BOTH of those characters AND Sheldrake might be despicable philanderers, could we REALLY legitimately call people who have negative aspects to their personalities "heavies" or "villains" in most cases? And then, would NOT such a hard and fast appraisal of people who HAVE failings make EVERY person who has failings in the world. and I believe that would be ALL of us, a "heavy" or "villain" TOO???

 

Nope, I, and I believe you, have the sense here that the term "heavies" or "villains" would best be applied to those in the world AND in film who exhibit anti-social behavior, and NOT to those which possess personal failings, and even IF those personal failings might result in some negative outcome to others in their sphere, inadvertent or not.

 

(...sorry to keep this whole sidetracking into the realm of semantics going here, but I thought your question was a very valid one which needed exploring)

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Great pointed question here, DGF. Because, IF Fred's Sheldrake character in THIS film IS a "heavy" or "villain", then would this not ALSO make Ray Walston's Dobisch and David Lewis' Kirkeby characters "heavies/villains"?

 

AND, whereas BOTH of those guys AND Sheldrake might be despicable philanderers, could we REALLY legitimately call people who have negative aspects to their personalities "heavies" or "villains" in most cases? And then, would NOT such a hard and fast appraisal of people who HAVE failings make EVERY person who has failings in the world. and I believe that would be ALL of us, a "heavy" or "villain" TOO???

 

(...sorry to keep this whole sidetracking into the realm of semantics going here, but I thought your question was a very valid one which needed exploring)

 

Interesting observations, Dargo old boy.

 

But I would make the case that MacMurray's Sheldrake, a serial philanderer, is a villain primarily because of that scene he has with Jack Lemmon in which we see him laughing off the feelings of his feminine conquests, who, he says, take him "too seriously.". He deliberately and cold bloodedly exploits the emotions of a naive Shirley MacLaine (as he has undoubtedly done before with others), in this case to the point that she was almost a suicide.

 

Off course, in the midst of his spectacular self centredness, he presumably didn't antipate that pill popping turn-of-events. But the consequences of his actions still had an almost fatal result for her.

 

Unlike his character in Caine Mutiny, MacMurray in The Apartment knows all along what he intends to do, and it involves a callous exploitation of another person (who is emotionally wrapped up in him) for his own sexual gratification (not to mention ego).

 

He's enough of a rat in The Apartment to qualify as a villain, I think.

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Great pointed question here, DGF. Because, IF Fred's Sheldrake character in THIS film IS a "heavy" or "villain", then would this not ALSO make Ray Walston's Dobisch and David Lewis' Kirkeby characters "heavies/villains"?

 

AND, whereas BOTH of those characters AND Sheldrake might be despicable philanderers, could we REALLY legitimately call people who have negative aspects to their personalities "heavies" or "villains" in most cases? And then, would NOT such a hard and fast appraisal of people who HAVE failings make EVERY person who has failings in the world. and I believe that would be ALL of us, a "heavy" or "villain" TOO???

 

Nope, I, and I believe you, have the sense here that the term "heavies" or "villains" would best be applied to those in the world AND in film who exhibit anti-social behavior, and NOT to those which possess personal failings, and even IF those personal failings might result in some negative outcome to others in their sphere, inadvertent or not.

 

(...sorry to keep this whole sidetracking into the realm of semantics going here, but I thought your question was a very valid one which needed exploring)

 

To me this is all just semantics.    While I agree that typically a 'villian' or 'heavy' is someone that is a criminal and uses violence in a film where there is no such activity (The Apartment,   Caine),    the 'heavy' is just the worst character in the movie.    i.e. the one that drives all the negative action.   The cad.  

 

To me this is what Fred meant when he said he often played the 'heavy'.   i.e.  he was the worst (most disliked),  character in the film. 

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Good counterpoint, Tom. However, let us not forget that we're talkin' about those "Corporate Types" here, dude!

 

(...and you know how THOSE guys are, DONCHA???!!!) LOL

 

;)

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To me this is all just semantics.    While I agree that typically a 'villian' or 'heavy' is someone that is a criminal and uses violence in a film where there is no such activity (The Apartment,   Caine),    the 'heavy' is just the worst character in the movie.    i.e. the one that drives all the negative action.   The cad.  

 

To me this is what Fred meant when he said he often played the 'heavy'.   i.e.  he was the worst (most disliked),  character in the film. 

 

Good point, James.

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Good point, James.

LOL- james uses my post of fred saying he played the heavy ( NO ONE ELSE MENTIONS THAT POINT, I POSTED FRED SAYING HE PLAYED HEAVIES) and NOW dargo, you say James makes a good point by taking info I posted? Why do you think I posted that in the first place? AGAIN, with the boys club around here. James you took info from my post to use in yours :( NOT COOL of you or dargo!!!

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LOL- james uses my post of fred saying he played the heavy ( NO ONE ELSE MENTIONS THAT POINT, I POSTED FRED SAYING HE PLAYED HEAVIES) and NOW dargo James makes a good point by taking info I posted. Why do you think I posted that in the first place. AGAIN, with boys club around here. James you took info from my post to use in yours :( NOT COOL of you or dargo!!!

 

Sorry lavender. I guess I either forgot or completely missed the post that James "plagiarized" from ya.

 

(...though in my defense, "of course" it was PROBABLY because I've always thought of you as "just a woman"!) LOL

 

;)

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Sorry lavender. I guess I either forgot or completely missed the post that James "plagiarized" from ya.

 

(...though in my defense, "of course" it was PROBABLY because I've always thought of you as "just a woman"!) LOL

 

;)

Again with the insults. Is that the ONLY way you know to respond lately? GET REAL.

 

In my post about Fred's interview in PEOPLE'S magazine FRED refers to his roles as HEAVIES. NO WHERE IN ANY OTHER POST IN THIS THREAD DOES ANYONE MENTION THAT FRED REFERS TO HIS ROLE AS HEAVIES or VILLAINS.

CAN YOU FIND MY POST YOURSELF DARGO OR DO I HAVE TO FIND IT FOR YOU????

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To me this is all just semantics.    While I agree that typically a 'villian' or 'heavy' is someone that is a criminal and uses violence in a film where there is no such activity (The Apartment,   Caine),    the 'heavy' is just the worst character in the movie.    i.e. the one that drives all the negative action.   The cad.  

 

To me this is what Fred meant when he said he often played the 'heavy'.   i.e.  he was the worst (most disliked),  character in the film. 

Read james last line - "To me this is what Fred meant when he said he often played the "heavy" "Where did james get that info from? My posting part of the interview where he says he played HEAVIES.

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Again with the insults. Is that the ONLY way you know to respond lately? GET REAL.

 

In my post about Fred's interview in PEOPLE'S magazine FRED refers to his roles as HEAVIES. NO WHERE IN ANY OTHER POST IN THIS THREAD DOES ANYONE MENTION THAT FRED REFERS TO HIS ROLE AS HEAVIES or VILLAINS.

CAN YOU FIND MY POST YOURSELF DARGO OR DO I HAVE TOP FIND IT FOR YOU????

 

Oh, c'mon now, lavender. Settle down. I wasn't "insulting" you here. What I was doin' was poking a little fun at the idea that YOU posited here about that whole "Old Boys Club" thing...that's all.

 

And just to reassure you here, I ALWAYS consider the things YOU say around here with the SAME weight as any of the male members(...wait a second, let me rephrase that...) with the same weight as any of those posited by any of the GUYS around here!

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Well, I dunno.....maybe he could have stood to lose a few pounds, But Fred never looked al that heavy to me!

 

 

Sepiatone

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LOL- james uses my post of fred saying he played the heavy ( NO ONE ELSE MENTIONS THAT POINT, I POSTED FRED SAYING HE PLAYED HEAVIES) and NOW dargo, you say James makes a good point by taking info I posted? Why do you think I posted that in the first place? AGAIN, with the boys club around here. James you took info from my post to use in yours :( NOT COOL of you or dargo!!!

 

I used the quote from Fred to back up your POV on this topic and that upsets you?????

 

Wow.    Ok,  from now on I'll just avoid you. 

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Yes, did you say that was from my post? btw, you HAVE been avoiding me. I backed up a post you made on this thread and no response, so look to yourself. You have ignored my responses to you for quite sometime on other threads also, so you HAVE been avoiding me, nothing new there.

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Wow, this whole thread is getting a little  "heavy" .  Its like having  a room full of Queegs.  Everyone has to take a step back and "lighten" up. Pull out those little steel balls and roll them around a little to relieve the tension. That used to work for Queeg, at least some of the time. :D

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Wow, this whole thread is getting a little  "heavy" .  Its like having  a room full of Queegs.  Everyone has to take a step back and "lighten" up. Pull out those little steel balls and roll them around a little to relieve the tension. That used to work for Queeg, at least some of the time. :D

STEEL BALLS? 

 

Are you saying I'm PARANOID or some kind of PSYCHOTIC, mrroberts?

 

What kind of high tension weirdo do you think I am, you dirty . . .

 

Hold it. Wait a minute. I did just roll a few steel balls in my hand, and I DO feel better now!

 

Gee, thanks for the suggestion, mrroberts. Let me know if I can do you a little favour some time.  :D

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No problem. Go have a dish of ice cream and strawberries, its on me. Just don't let that rat Keefer have any.

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No problem. Go have a dish of ice cream and strawberries, its on me. 

Strawberries? STRAWBERRIES???

 

How can I? Someone stole them! YOU know that!

 

Are you trying to play games with me????

 

Oh, wait. Little steel balls. Rolling them now. Starting to feel better already.

 

Err, thanks for the suggestion, mrroberts.  :)

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