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Exactly! You watch enough Noirs and you literally get to the point where, I've heard it put this way, that "you know them when you see them." I'll go that one better. Noir, for me is a pan generic dark story told in a stylistic way that triggers a vibe that you tune to, almost akin to a drug/alcohol high. You get a Noir buzz. But its a strange type of high that is actually topsy-turvy to a drug/alcohol high in that it works like this. For Noir neophytes they will only get that high from the hard boiled hardcore Noirs with Detectives, Femme Fatales, and murder. They are the Noir junkies, the mainliners. But with the more Noirs you get exposed to you'll find that there is an endless variety of stories that shuffle and spiral away on different tendrils that provide enough of the elements that make a film a Noir. Your personal life experiences will also inform your affinity to the types of stories that will tip Noir for you. So your tolerance level to Noir goes down, you don't need the hardboiled, hard core stories to get the fix and you recognize the noir in all the various tragedies and picaresque situations that plague the human condition. Noir expands out to an ill delineated, fuzzy "on the cusp of Noir" point where a film can tip either way for an individual. A good example of this effect is the the film Somebody Up There Likes Me that has a few very noir-ish sequences sprinkled through out its length.

Fashions of 1934 (1934) Model Wife (1941) East Side, West Side (1949) (Cyd Charisse) The Model and the Marriage Broker (1951) Singin' in the Rain (1952) (the "Beautiful Girl" fashion show) Artists and Models (1955) Model Shop (1969)

Funny Face (1957) -- Fred turns Audrey into a fashion model How to Marry a Millionaire (1953) -- Lauren, Betty, and Marilyn are models looking for rich husbands

Mannequin Darling Smartest Girl in Town

Designing Woman 1957 The Pajama Game 1957 A New Kind of Love 1963 Made In Paris 1966

Roberta (1935) Exposed (1983) Prêt-à-porter (1994) Gia (1998) Paranoid (2000) The Neon Demon (2016)

There is nothing I disagree with here, but I do wonder how much opportunity Cyd was given to show if she had dramatic actress chops. The few films where she doesn't dance (Tension \ East Side - West Side), are early in her career. As you mention she did well in Tension, especially for a young actress. I think she is also good in East Side - West Side, especially given that she has to act along side Barbara Stanwyck. But after these early film she had few non-dancing roles. So my overall point here is if given more opportunity would Cyd have meet the challenge? I just don't know. Someone like Ginger Rogers showed that she was a triple threat and no Astaire was required.

Mahogany The Women (there is a fashion show in it) The Devil Wears Prada

Zoolander (2001)

Richard Gere's SECOND attempt to nonsensically Americanize a popular Japanese movie whose basic theme only made sense in its original Japanese context. [Qv. the American "Shall We Dance?" remake.] In this case, Hachiko didn't live in a colorful generic small town, he lived in Tokyo, and became so famous for waiting for his master to return from Shibuya station, he now has a much more famous and nationally known statue there. And, a Japanese movie to celebrate the local legend.

I had thought that SILAS MARNER was the book being discussed in the scene in the English class in ORDINARY PEOPLE and re-watched the scene in order to reference it in a response to LHF's post in this thread . . . but I discovered that the class is actually discussing JUDE THE OBSCURE! TEACHER Now why don't we discuss some theory here. Conrad, what's your theory on Jude Fawley? Conrad? What's your theory on Jude Fawley? CONRAD Uh . . . uh . . . TEACHER You think he was powerless in the grip of circumstance or could he have helped himself? CONRAD I don't, uh -. Powerless? I guess, I guess he thought he was. Yeah. JOEL The guy was a real jerk! He was all hung up on what was the moral thing to do and it didn't make any sense. TEACHER I think that's a little too easy, Joel. Paul, what do you think? PAUL (O.S.) I found the book really hard to follow. I, I couldn't figure it out.

Run for Cover

Yes, good point, Herman. The first generation FWD '67-'70 Eldorados (and which of course were actually based on the ground-breaking 1966 Oldsmobile Toronado) DO still have a modern and timeless look to them. (...in fact, I've always thought these modern Caddys with their sharp-edged bodywork, were meant to be a sort of "homage" to those particular Caddys)

Ever since I was a wee tyke watching Mannix when I was supposed to be in bed my dream car has been a '66 Olds Toronado. Actually my dream car is a Hemi 'Cuda but I'm still saving up the first million to go towards it so that '66 Olds with the groovy spinning speedometer is it.

Thoroughly Modern Millie 1967

Wonder how you'd feel about Bella if she were, say, about 45 feet taller, Nip??? Seems you like the softer look in a woman and unlike Bella's more chiseled features. (...and regardless how tall the women might be)

Good point, James, and one that got me wondering why I've felt Cyd was never that good as a dramatic actress. I think this might have all originally stemmed from when I was a teenager, and before ever watching any of her earlier dance work in classic musicals. I remember first noticing her when she'd guest on some television drama series during the '60s, '70s, '80s and later, and after she had pretty much wound down her dancing career. I remember thinking to myself the first I saw her in one of those old series, "WOW! Who IS this gorgeous and glamorous 'older' woman I'm looking at here? BOY, is SHE ever HOT!" But then later when I'd see her again in another show, she always seemed to be playing a character which was pretty much the same as the last...pretty much the "gorgeous and glamorous" type who's always perfectly made-up and wardrobed, and during her life when she looked like this... And so I suppose this was when I must have made up my mind that Cyd's range when it comes to acting was probably pretty limited. (...make any sense at all???)

THE EGYPTIAN is a favorite of mine... because of VICTOR MATURE. I think it is a bit trashy, and BELLA DARVI does just get creepier and creepier...LOVE IT!

Fire. That’s how you solve a problem like Maria: FIRE. (And lots of it.)

So, kind'a like that old joke: "Be wary of any female surgeon who never questioned their mother when she told her, 'The way to a man's heart is through his stomach'. " (...so, kind'a like that?)

True. OTOH, both have been shown at the TCM Film Festival. The Sound Of Music was the opening night presentation a few years ago, with both Ms. Andrews and Christopher Plummer there. But the rights for the TCMFF are negotiated separately from the broadcast rights.

I think there will always be discussions of what movies fit into what category. What is the line when a drama turns into an action movie? What is the line where a movie goes from musical to musical comedy? In the above discussions, when does a movie go from a crime movie to a noir? To me, I get the general idea of the labels such as "drama", "musical", "comedy", etc. Sometimes, to pinpoint a movie super exactly is difficult. I see these movie labels as helpful, knowing what to expect. But, I think a lot of movies may be on the border between genres. Unless the moviemaker specifically has the intent to make a "noir" for instance, many movies will be fuzzy to place in their exact category.

The Seven Year Itch next--new identity

Don't have much to add to Act of Violence. I've seen it a half dozen times and it's one of my favorite noirs. One I had not heard of before TCM! It has some believability issues, (the fact the hoods would go through with the plan w/out being paid first), but overall a gripping story and still timely subject matter today. Love all the Bunker Hill area night scenes. One thing I dont think anyone has mentioned are how finely etched the 3 female lead characters are written. Thaxter doesn't have a lot to do, but her character moves the plot along and her prodding of Ryan's conscience does affect him in the end. Astor and Leigh are both great. Everyone is. But for a noir the women are all 3 dimensional and well written. I've always wondered whether Astor tried to forge Heflin's signature and cashed that check!

Re:....former manager claims in book Which is called hearsay .

Only Nipkow would create a thread with the word chuckster in the title.

From June 2-4, 1921, the Poli ran The Barbarian, directed by Donald Crisp, and featuring Monroe Salisbury as Eric Straive, Jane Novak as Flora Heatherton, and Alan Hale as Mark Brant. The film’s release date is uncertain, but it was six reels. Complete copies are held in several archives. Unfortunately, I could not find any stills. However, there is a brief clip available on YouTube: Plot: Eric Straive has been reared and educated by his father in the Canadian Northwest. After his father dies, Straive inherited his large estate. James Heatherton, a capitalist from the east, brings his daughter Flora to the region to investigate mineral deposits. Flora is the first white woman Straive has ever seen. He acts as their guide, unaware that Heatherton is scheming to take his land. Flora, meanwhile, is taken aback by Straive, and thinks he is a barbarian. Mark Brant, who is Heatherton’s agent, tries to secure Straive’s land through underhanded means. Heatherton and Brant claim to have a document asserting that the land is theirs. But Straive exposes the document as a forgery, and is helped by the Indian woman Redwing, who was present when Straive’s father died. Straive attempts to kill Brant for his treachery, but Flora intercedes. Afterwards, when she sees how Straive takes care of Brant, Flora realizes the “barbarian” is cultured, and she falls in love with him. Eventually, Straive allows a music conservatory to be built on his estate, where the poor may be taught to sing. The only two reviews I found list Alan Hale’s character as Mark Brant, whereas IMDB lists the name as Mark Grant. Motion Picture News praised the scenery, but was lukewarm on the story, noting “it is a one character picture that revolves around a conventional theme and which has to do with painting the contrast between a product of the big outdoors and a girl and her associates of a cultured environment. … The titles are rather flowery and too descriptive. Many of them miss their mark in advancing the action, while others are totally out of place.” Moving Picture World also praised the locations, writing “the backgrounds are a series of pictures of scenic beauty developed through the medium of artistic photography.” Monroe Salisbury (an actor I had never heard of) faded into obscurity. In July of 1935, he became an inmate at Patton State Hospital in California, with his occupation listed as “hotel clerk.” He died later that year, after falling off a ladder and fracturing his skull. The Los Angeles Times reported that his body was not identified until two days later, by his sister. Oddly, as early as 1931, several newspapers reported that he was working as a hotel clerk in a Hollywood, in articles of the “whatever happened to” type. But apparently Hollywood then lost track of the former leading man.

In The Actress (1953), Spencer Tracy's pants fall down while he is holding the anchor position in a human pyramid. Obviously, his hands are busy, and he cannot pull up his drawers, to his daughter's chagrin. Next: chopsticks

The Sound of Music and Rebecca is the cross-over that I didn’t know I needed.

Ray Next: Andrews, Walters, Kavner

The thought of Judith Anderson as "How do you solve a problem like Maria?" and Julie Andrews as Mrs. Danvers has made my day!

Two of my favorite films are named for dogs, and have very important symbolic dogs 1. MY LIFE AS A DOG (1985) 2. SOUNDER (1972) which is not centered on that wonderful dog at all but it perfectly describes that film

2018, Isle of Dogs next Cary Grant gets married three times then dresses in drag

I'll go a big step beyond and admit I love them best acted out in a nice BBC miniseries. I had read and loved, "Middlemarch" and "Silas Marner" both before seeing them on Masterpiece, but I loved them even more afterward. Ben Kingsley was perfect as Silas. I have a vague memory of seeing some version of "The Mill on the Floss." Now I need to actually read that one. I just watched, "The Bad Seed. ' Holy moly. The acting, by everyone, was mesmerizing, even the mother whose physical acting was over the top for me, was still pretty awesome, but the one who left me an emotional wreck was Eileen Heckart as the grieving mother of the drowned little boy. She has to play crushed by grief at the same time as playing drunk and she does it so well. I think she's fabulous.

I asked the bartender, the same gal that off duty drinks Miller Highlife and half shots of Jameson, what she thinks of film noir and that fella Bela Lugosi. “Dargo told us all about him,” she said. “Actually I wouldn’t mind doing the Lugosi, but only if it doesn’t take too long.” I didn’t know what that meant so I ordered a bag of potato chips and another Budweiser.

The Birdcage (1996) Transamerica (2005) Beginners (2010) A Fantastic Woman (2017)

Attack of the 50 Foot Woman (just aired on TCM) most certainly is a film noir. Jim Morrison and The Doors had a ten foot tall woman, she was a noir too. Lola wasn’t that tall. Ray Davies isn’t that tall, is he? The more tall you are the more noir you are.

Mmm, I would say the definition of what qualifies a film as being noir CAN be taken loosely, that's not just Eddie's opinion. Why this is always a perennial conversation--sometimes bordering on debate or even argument -- and why it's such an ongoing source of fascination for people is beyond me. I've also noticed that it seems to be mainly the newcomers to film noir, people who have just found out about this style of film, who are the ones most determined to pin it down and limit it to a very specific type of movie, with very hard parametres around what they think it is. On the other hand, people who've known about and followed film noir for a long time are actually more relaxed about how it's defined. (no offence to ShankAsu, if they've just recently discovered noir, that's great.)

You know, nothing delights me more than learning a different point of view. It's like speaking multiple languages, it can enhances the big picture for you if you're an accepting person.

GOOD-BYE, MY LADY (1956)

I consider Tortilla Flat to be a favorite canine-centric movie. Although ostensibly about the Spencer Tracy, Hedy Lamarr, and John Garfield characters, I think the real spirit of the film resides in the Frank Morgan character ("The Pirate"), who is a sort of semi-homeless person who goes around with a group of stray dogs. In gratitude to St. Francis for saving a previous pet, The Pirate saves his "two-bitses" to buy a candlestick for the church. The scene dedicating the candlestick is deeply moving, especially when all the dogs rush into the church to witness the ceremony. A few scenes later comes the scene which is not only the best canine-centric scene in any movie, it is also one of the best scenes representing a hierophany (manifestation of the sacred) in any movie, ever. In the midst of the Redwood (I accidentally first typed "Redwoof") Forest, The Pirate tells his dogs the story of St. Francis. Suddenly, a light shines down from the giant trees. The Pirate averts his gaze, as the dogs stand up on their hind legs and make strange noises. The light passes, The Pirate looks at the dogs and says, "Did you see him? Did you see him? It was St. Francis! What good boys you must be, to see St. Francis." That is a remarkable scene, and informs the spirit of the film. Frank Morgan, who was nominated, should have won the Best Supporting Actor Oscar, but Van Heflin won that year. The dogs should have gotten an award as well. Btw, Tortilla Flat was directed by Victor Fleming, who directed The Wizard of Oz a few years earlier. Both Frank Morgan (The Pirate) and one of his dogs also appeared in The Wizard of Oz, Morgan playing The Wizard, and the dog playing Toto.

From 1945:

I know Old Yeller is too obvious a choice but as a kid I couldn't even talk about the film (or book) Where the Red Fern Grows without tearing up.

Really? Even IF they might be Left-Brain types??? Ya see, I've always been under the impression (and which btw is always much preferrable than ever being over the impression, and especially of you might suffer from acrophobia...but I digress) that Left-Brain people and regardless if they might generally be "right-thinking" are usually much too preoccupied with thoughts of facts and figures, and so just a simple "call to arms" has never been a sufficient means in order to "attract" them to do ANYTHING! Nope, I've always found that with those kind'a folks, you pretty much need somethin' like a cattle prod to get 'em to do what ya want 'em to do. (...oh wait...maybe that was Right-Brain types?!...eeeh, either way and like I was sayin' here, sometimes a cattle prod comes in mighty handy)

HEY Thompson! Here's another one of those "general rules of thumb" that distinguishes something as "noir". And that would be that ANY post which includes the words "tendrils" and/or "picaresque" in it and such as CJ's above posting does here, is about as "noir" as it can get! Also notice that CJ up there never once mentions Bela Lugosi in it, and so once again of course making his post even MORE as "noir" as it can get. (...and be sure to mention this to that girl at the bar you keep talkin' about here)

Deborah Kerr received Academy Award nominations for all of them (also for The Sundowners).

Omar Khayyam (1957)

Sepiatone

My Dog Skip