MissGoddess

so how "hot" were you for hatari!?

Chris, I'm sorry about your friend. I know one of the best things about him or her was that you were their friend.

I'd love to know my answer too.. ha. If I can figure out for sure what it was he is asking... I need to go back again and read his explanation.. carefully. (I am an old woman and am sometimes slow to catch on.. ha) It may be that I am just too "muddleheaded" to comprehend.. Ha! Why do you think I had to ask him three times what he meant. He's too intellectual by half for me. I still am not 100% sure I'm understanding him but it became clearer when he expanded it to characters. For instance, we've all been talking about Col Thursday here and in lzcutter's thread (which I've just been too lazy to write in, though I'm reading every post and will get there). I like to have people watch and see how they react to him. Or in *In a Lonely Place*. How do people take Dix Steele? I had a friend watch it when we were having that Big Discussion on it a while back, to see if she would agree with me or the others. She was kind of in the middle. She didn't like his temper but she thought he was also dealing with some foolishness that provoked him. In other words, it reveals a lot about how people view situations and characters, as to how they react to a certain movie that you respond to very strongly. AT least I THINK that's what he means. *On Dangerous Ground* is another for me. I absolutely love Jim (Robert Ryan) but I can see how a lot of people might be too scared of him and may be more concerned with his temper. Or even Ward Bond's character in that movie...I find him pitiable, so many might react differently. And for Frank, wasn't "Harry Fabian" a real litmus test, ha ha haaa!

She's good in Caged as well. Sympathetic. Her? Wow! I know. When you first hear of Agnes Moorehead being in a woman's prison picture, you assume the worst about her character.

Howdy, Ro! You're not butting in, I'd love to know your answer to the question Frank posed! How about Hondo?

It was tough to see her just accept her fate. She's gonna learn to love Prince Albert (Alec Guinness). Yes, I believe so. She sounds like you! She was basically playing an "Angelica Bullock" (Alice Brady). Yes, though more prudish. I didn't realize it was Agnes until I looked over the cast after the film. She has one scene and she's exceptional with it. She's good in *Caged* as well. Sympathetic.

What's wrong with you tonight?! I don't know, too many things. I still enjoy her the most with Hitch, but I thought she was wonderful as The Swan . I liked her fencing. So cute. I like the fencing scene, too. And her two little brothers, they were cute. The ending makes me cry, too. Oh, really? It didn't do that for me. I think it's because I was mostly taken by surprise. It felt like a "feel good" ending kind of film. No, I wanted it to end otherwise, though I really do like Alec's character. I mean the parting scene made me cry. The renouncement. I'd say! I thought it was funny seeing her play a different kind of mother to Grace than in To Catch a Thief . She's too funny when she said she'd never forgive the professor. She can't stand the sight of him! Ha! I thought he was fantastic. I laughed when he ran out with leggings on and he said, "Now you know." That was hilarious! Oh, yes, ha! And when he played with the soccer ball. Alex Guinness is superb, as well. I also liked Louis Jordan and Agnes Moorehead. Me too. As you say, it's a great cast. Aggie made a delightful Aunt who was both intimidating and a realist. How she handled Jessie was so funny. She knew her so well.

I thought she was darling. She was at her "pouty" best. I thought the cast was dazzling, actually. It even had a Roman Holiday -like ending. I didn't expect that at all. I have to agree with you. It's just about my favorite Grace performance, the one in which she's the most vulnerable. The ending makes me cry, too. Jessie Royce Landis is a scream, as always. I like Brian Aherne, too, as the voice of reason.

I guess I'm gonna have to watch Caged tonight. But I'm not gonna talk about it until we talk about all of these other films that I watched! Okay...what did you think of your lady in The Swan, set in another of your favorite "milieux"?

Yeah, you're right. The ending to Pride and Prejudice is much more horrifying. They don't make horror films like that, anymore. Which ones have you seen? Someone's getting out her long, black gloves! A couple contemporary ones. I think the classic ones are going to play differently to you. I also think that of the ones I've seen, they seem to be more like metaphors for the world outside. It's like they are contained microcosms. Sometimes this makes the dramatic situation stand out more. I don't worry about your dislking either of these movies because their viewpoint and messages are to your liking. Also the performers in *Brute Force* are all favorites of yours. If it helps to ease your worries, the women in *Brute Force* are important, not just marginal. One of the best lines is an exchange between Lancaster and Ann Blyth. She has cancer: "I wish I wasn't sick so that I could help you." Lancaster: "There's all kinds of sickness in the world. Maybe we can help each other." *I'm not fond of the setting. It's on the boring side, for me.* Neither of these movies will bore you, I can assure you of that.

Like the ending to *Pride and Prejudice*? No comparison! I've yet to see Brute Force. I'm not that big on prison films. Which ones have you seen? You'd like both of these because they are indictments, socially conscious and simply darn well done and acted. just about every single film noir character actor is in the supporting cast of *Brute Force* so you ought to watch it for that alone. It's fun spotting them all. Both these films focus on the human cost. I hate the idea of prison films just as I hate the idea of war films, but I can get sucked into them if they're well done and comfortable with my own ideas. I've only seen Jan in Johnny Belinda, Mystery Street, and The Mating Season. Her name is "Smoochie"? Yes, she's very sweet in this, actually! That's not typical Jan, to me. I love her pigtails. I think this was one of her first real chances to be in an "A" picture. I think you will be blown away by her in *The Big Carnival*. Don't forget you saw her also in an "Alfred Hitchcock Presents". If you and Spunky say it's worth watching, I'll have to do so. I think we had a disucssion on it, maybe in Rambles, some time ago. I'm not sure if Ro has seen it but I know CinemAva has.

*That's a good question. I'm not sure. I'd say The Woman in the Window is for the mind and Scarlet Street is visceral.* That is how I'd classify them, too. *I would have never guessed you'd like a female prison film.* The very premise makes my skin crawl! *Now that's an upset! I can't say a female prison film is my speed. But if the social message is good, I may end up liking it.* It's certainly not my speed, either, but I wouldn't recommend it if it weren't so good. It's the female *Brute Force*. *I've only seen Eleanor in The Man with the Golden Arm and Home from the Hill. I liked her in both.* She's completely different in this and carries the film really well, though there are many stand out performances. I like Jan Sterling the best, next, and then the little old Irish lady. What's really bizarre is there were moments when I actually thought Eleanor never looked more beautiful! I usually like seeing a woman fixed up, but she was one of the few that really didn't need any make-up to look stunning.

As you know, I view *The Woman in the Window* as a mental (even moral) exercise. There is an intellectual bent, as you say. *Scarlet Street* is certainly the more sordid of the two films, and this is one of the reasons why some choose the one film over the other. That's part of the "litmus." But is one deeper than another? Sex is at the heart of *Scarlet Street* and *The Woman in the Window* and you're rarely gonna choose those kind of films as favorites. *Fury* and *You Only Live Once* feature men being pushed to the brink by Society. That seems to be a theme you like more, especially when it's done "30s" style. Yes, I do like movies that paint society as the ultimate "enemy" and corruptor, ha. I watched *Caged* the other night, and I hate prison pictures or movies that focus too much on females, but that one always gets me. To see how prisons create criminals, and to see the female type of sadism at work, is really rivetting. You should take a look at it one day. I'm always amazed by Eleanor Parker in this. It's like nothing else she did, I'm sure. There are none of the actressy mannerisms she often employed (that's not a knock, I enjoy them and I like her a lot). To see such a pretty young woman go from where she starts to where she ends is harrowing. you'll love the ending, too.

*Kind of. More like a fishing expedition.* i see now. A litmus test for you would be "Doniphon or Ranse" or "Rhett or Ashley"? You have a definite answer with those that speaks to who you are. that's certainly true...when you get down to characters, it becomes nitty and gritty. you could even throw Col. Thursday in that bunch, since I don't altogether dislike him. Definitely. But it's not about me. Scarlet Street is the tougher, harder film with a particular ending. The Woman in the Window is the opposite. You can tell a little about a person by which one they favor. I think the opposite with the "serious" part. Well, at least in terms of finish and tone. And I would have had you pegged for The Woman in the Window. I can see that now. Before, I think I responded to the surfaces...WITW has an intellectual bent...it's a mystery, a mind puzzle in how it's presented. SS seems more like a sordid tale at first. You like melodrama! I think Clash by Night is the most soapy of Lang's flicks and it's easily one of his most "female." It makes sense it would be your favorite. I also like *The Blue Gardenia* and that one to me is really "glossy" for Lang. But I also rank *Fury* and *You Only Live Once* above WITW and SS, so what does THAT say?

*I don't have to want to run off with someone to understand exactly how she feels.* i can definitely perceive a lot of you in the movie. a lot of women, really. where i see myself is in my youth and that longing to escape from an "ugly" place to a "beautiful", storybook world.

Oh I like Secret Beyond the Door best of the three, too. I love the setting, too, which is more to my liking than the urban settings. And I'd love to know more about what YOU like about *Madame Bovary*, Emma.

I watched *Madame Bovary* again the other night when it was on. It's a great movie about society's values and women's disatisfaction. It's really a female noir in a way! I mean, if films noir are typically about men following a dangerous obsession or temptation and revealing the ugly side of their fatal flaws, then this movie is all about what women can fall prey to and more importantly...why and how society is implicated. At least that is how I see it and what I get out of it. I think it's Minelli's greatest film, followed by *Some Came Running* (leaving out the musicals, which seem to be in a class by themselves).

*A Hitchcock film like Rear Window is very accessible to most any movie watcher. But Vertigo, that's a different story. If I hear someone likes Vertigo, I start to believe that person has some depth to them. And with me, I like depth. So Vertigo represents a level of depth.* oh, I see what you mean. you're not asking what movie we think we see ourselves in, but what movie others name as a favorite and what that says about them...is that right? i'd fall out of my chair if anyone said their favorite Ford film was *the sun shines bright* but *the man who shot liberty valance* is the one that's the most resonant with me, and seems to never touch bottom. Also, it's not a "shoot 'em up" and there are none of the majestic, outdoor visuals for the view to hang his admiration, so they must be involved in the story, the characters and what it all means. *What about Lang or your other favorites?* Just a person knowing who Fritz Lang is is a big step! one of my biggest Lang Litmus Tests is, which do you prefer more, Scarlet Street or *The Woman in the Window*? That will usually tell me something about a person.* You're obviously more into SS. I always leaned toward TWITW, though SS is more entertaining and probably going to surpass WITW after a few more viewings. I tended to think WITW was more "serious" before, and SS more superficial. But the discussions here on the board made me realize my mistake. So what does it say about me that *Clash by Night* is my favorite Lang?

Oh, Jackie took mine!

Oh, that's interesting. So how is *Vertigo* "you" more than the others? Is that the one film of all, or just by Hitch that matches you? What about Lang or your other favorites? And this coversation itself...like most of the "rambles"...is exactly what turns the majority on the board off, just like those who watch movies and say "It's just a movie, there's no sub-text, just stop getting off on the sight and sound of your own words."

*You know, I've been thinking, what would a litmus test be for each us? What films "test" our personal levels with any movie fan? Vertigo is a great one for me. That's one where I'd expect most common movie watchers to say it's "stupid."* Can you be clearer? Do you mean which movies by a director are the ones that the popcorn fans liked the least?

Now that is awesome. I'm in complete agreement with Powell. The best directors are making their films. It's their thoughts and feelings up on the screen. It's their personality that you will find. The ordinary directors just do what they are told. It's a job for them. I like that Powell calls himself a "very serious-minded person." That shows he cares. I just recently watched my very first Powell-Pressburger film and I was very moved by the filmmaking. You could tell it was different than most. It was poetic. And John Ford certainly places himself in his films. He plays multiple characters in his films. I sometimes wonder if the other directors started out with the desire to be more artistic, but found it hard to fight for that in a commercial business, and hard to contend with the undeniable fact that then and even more so now, most peopel do NOT watch movies with a view to finding anything deeper than what's obvious. The smartest ones learned to make movies that were entertaining to the popcorn crowd but which provided something more if you cared to look closer. It's interesting to look at where the "auteurs" had their most crashing box office failures: in their most personal efforts. Ford had his The Fugitive (and The Sun Shines Bright) and Powell had his Peeping Tom. Orson Welles had a career full of them. Hawks I think for the most part abandoned any idea of "seriousness" after the early thirties (too bad in a way, because I really like the remake of his first silent, The Road to Glory...that he remade it tells me it meant something to him, but he got burned somehow...I forget if it was poor box office or sneering criticism, but after that he concentrated on humor and group dynamics. He decided to make his movies as personally enjoyable to make as they are to watch, as possible. Even Hitch did not get the kind of reception he wanted for *Vertigo*.

That's so interesting, because in watching Fort Apache just now, I was struck by Collingwood, waiting endlessly for his promotion, with no word from the command, and these self-disparaging lines he utters: "We all know what the army thinks of me." but then someone, John Agar, I believe, says, "but you know what the MEN think of you." which took me right back to The Long Gray Line. So true, Jackie. It's an apt comparison. Collingwood is seen by some, including Thursday as the "weaker" man. It's even hinted he may have or had a problem with alcohol, something a man as rigid as Thursday would despise. Thursday even tried to shame his old friend by offering him a drink. If we know anything, we know a weakness for liquor is no mark against any man in a Ford film. Collingwood wants his promotion badly, but not so badly that he will behave in a dioshonorable way - he is gallant to the end, no matter what he wanted or what rank he held. Definitely. Collingwood for all his chafing for a transfer, learned to "subsist". He really was regular army, something Thursday never could be or adequately appreciate, until, perhaps, too late at the end. And for all his fine talk of rules and regulations, and his wish to be thought of as a great commander, Thursday will do anything to get what he wants. He will have his way, even if it means dishonoring everyone but himself, which to me and to the men under him makes him a man without honor. Thursday would be horrified to learn that I find Marty more honourable than he. He surely was without honor toward his enemy and his stupid vainglory cost the lives, needlessly, of so many. This is the first time watching *Fort Apache* that I wept at the end. Until now the movie generated chiefly awe and admiration from me, as well as engaging my mind. This time my heart was really touched. Marty Maher sort of encapsulates all those "dirty shirt blue" guys in many Ford films. The ones history, and the glory seekers, disparage. I thought it interesting that we do not see Mrs. Collingwood at the end of the film. I guess she "transfered" out of Fort Apache, after her man was gone.

You know, watching *Fort Apache* and the mention of *The Informer* made me start thinking how many characters in Ford want something so badly, yet it doesn't work out for them. Just like Marty Maher. And the key to happiness, or peace, is in the words spoken by Pa Maher: "Subsist. Subsist."

Jackie, I loved that quote from Michael Powell, I'm going to remember it. It's so true, too, when I watch a movie like *A Canterbury Tale* or a Ford film, I'm often reacting to something I'm sensing other than what I'm seeing. I've always been distracted by an odd-gated manner of style in *The Long Gray Line*, it's not typical linear storytelling. It's like *She Wore a Yellow Ribbon* in its episodic style. Somehow, this looseness as Frank described it, allows the director's own ideas room to breathe in the film. A tight, plot-driven film sometimes cannot do this.