MissGoddess

It does make a difference what you're exposed to first, ha. I saw him to begin with in rather leading man type parts, if somewhat tortured. I love his voice. He always reminds me of Albert Finney but I prefer Finch for some reason.

You have the right idea, he was a surgeon in *The Nun's Story,* and a district officer in Africa to Angie Dickinson's nurse/missionary in *The Sins of Rachel Cade* (I always compare the two movies myself).

Does anyone else think *Peter Finch* might have made a good "Mr Rochester" in Jane Eyre? It's rolling around in my empty head this morning. Jackie, you and Bronxie are the Brit Experts... But perhaps he lacked enough humor....Mr. Rochester was always making sarcastic comments.

> Both tend to be in a lot of films where their star power is the "story." Lots of "crowd pleasers." Nothing wrong with that, it's just that those kind of films rarely rate highly with me. > Definitely. when they get off that carousel, they become more interesting, especially when they were older. (How did we get on the subject of Gable and Coop? Not that it's a bad turn in the conversation.) > I was ranking his performances, not his characters or films. I tend to value serious performances more. What's great about Tracy is that his serious performances tend to feature some comedy. > I like watching him interact with women, best. He's then a combination of sure and unsure, smart and stumped. Lovely. And yes, one of the very, very few dramatically powerful actors who could be very funny. > *The Last Hurrah* is a powerful performance by Spence. He does it all, in that one. Lots of great emotion. I ranked *Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde* at the top because the character he plays is so very different to all of his other characters. He's crazy and cruel! > I love Jekyll and Hyde, love the conflict with himself, the psychology and how dramatic the shift is from one to the other making outward changes superfluous. > > Again, I'm basing it on performance. I definitely love "Linda Seton." She's my second favorite Kate character. But in terms of performance, it's rather restrained for Kate. I love her entire vibe in *The Philadelphia Story*, *Bringing Up Baby*, and *Woman of the Year*. She's on fire in those films. Those are the films I'd suggest to someone if they wanted to see Kate. > She is on all gears but it gets interesting when the same woman takes on roles as in African Queen, The Rainmaker and Summertime. So different. I'd recommend those as well, especially Queen and Summertime. Those are deeper Hepburn performances than the others you mention. > You snubbed two Pappy films! What's wrong with you?! > I'm being honest. Favorite Stevens: 1. Shane 2. Giant 3. Penny Serenade 4. Swing Time 5. A Place in the Sun 6. Alice Adams 7. Gunga Din 8. Woman of the Year 9. The More the Merrier 10. Vivacious Lady Edited by: MissGoddess on Oct 7, 2011 10:56 AM

> > I see! So this is an example of you liking the stars more so than the films. I've noticed that with some stars. The films aren't the greatest but they are enjoyable to watch. Clark Gable is like that with me. Even Gary Cooper. > Yes, there are some movies in the 1940 done by Gable and Gary that are not among my favorites. I prefer both men in the 1930s and 1950s (though there are exceptions). > My favorite performances by Spence would be: > > > 1. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde > 2. The Last Hurrah > 3. Inherit the Wind > 4. Bad Day at Black Rock > 5. Fury > 6. Test Pilot > 7. Whipsaw > 8. Man's Castle > 9. Cass Timberlane > 10. Woman of the Year > 11. Up the River > 12. San Francisco > 13. Libeled Lady > 14. Guess Who's Coming to Dinner > Definitnely you like him super serious the most. So do I, for the most part. I'm surprised to see *The Last Hurrah* so high. I wonder what you'll think of *People vs. O'Hara* and *Edward, My Son*. > For Kate: > > > 1. The Philadelphia Story > 2. Bringing Up Baby > 3. Woman of the Year > 4. Mary of Scotland > 5. Suddenly, Last Summer > 6. Quality Street > 7. Guess Who's Coming to Dinner > 8. Alice Adams > 9. Stage Door > 10. Holiday > I'm astonished *Holiday* finished last...is that because you think of it as Cary's picture? I love the movie and her character. Poor Mary didn't evenmake my list, did it?

> You seem to be very lukewarm with their films. > I have mixed emotions about them. > *Keeper of the Flame* is weird? It is weird. Kate was married to some sort of "leader" who has an almost cultish aura about him and his mysterious death. Spence is a journalist I think, who's trying to get to the truth they're trying to hide. I made two separate lists because I enjoy more of the work they did apart from each other.

*Favorite Performances* KATHARINE HEPBURN 1. Holiday 2. Summertime 3. Suddenly, Last Summer 4. The Philadelphia Story 5. Guess Who's Coming To Dinner? 6. Alice Adams 7. Stage Door 8. Bringing Up Baby 9. The African Queen 10. Rooster Cogburn 11. Sea of Grass 12. Undercurrent 13. The Glass Menagerie 14. Morning Glory 15. On Golden Pond 16. The Rainmaker TRACY 1. Fury 2. Cass Timberlaine 3. Mannequin 4. Man's Castle 5. The People Against O'Hara 6. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde 7. They Gave Him a Gun 8. Woman of the Year 9. Adam's Rib 10. Bad Day at Black Rock 11. Whipsaw 12. Guess Who's Coming to Dinner? 13. The Last Hurrah 14. Dante's Inferno 15. Libeled Lady 16. Plymouth Adventure 17. Test Pilot 18. Captain's Courageous 19. I Take This Woman 20. The Seventh Cross 21. Edison, The Man 22. RiffRaff 23. Judgement at Nuremberg 24. Inherit the Wind (The last two on Tracy's list I have not seen in years, and frankly he seemed like the same character in both so that's the best I could do without ignoring them entirely). I did ignore a few from both stars that I just didn't care much for like *Malaya*, *The Old Man and the Sea*, *The Corn is Green*, *Lion in Winter* and *A Guy Named Joe*, plus there are many he did at Fox in the early 30s that I've never seen. Sufice it to say, I have never disliked Tracy in anything.

Ha! I'm with you; chocolate always trumps anything else for me.

Ro...don't feel rushed about this conversation as I still haven't gotten my copy of *Big Jake* to rewatch, and won't do until next week at the earliest. I thought I had it in my collection, I could have sworn I recorded it when it was on TCM, but I don't so it's waiting at Netflix soon as I finish a couple of other discs first. So this discussion hopefully can be fanned back to life. And save me a loaf of pumpkin bread...I LOVE, LOVE pumpkin bread. It's the only thing I actually like that's made of Pumpkin.

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}Let's see... > > 1. Tom Doniphon > 2. Rip Darrow > Nooooooooooo!! That reminds me, Barbara Stanwyck made a pretty good villainness in *The Violent Men*. > 1. Ben Wade (Glenn Ford in *3:10 to Yuma* ) > 2. Woman (Millie Perkins in *The Shooting* ) > 3. Ben Vandergroat (Robert Ryan in *The Naked Spur* ) > 4. Liberty Valance (Lee Marvin in *The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance* ) > 5. Billy Spear (Jack Nicholson in *The Shooting* ) > 6. Frank Usher (Richard Boone in *The Tall T* ) > 7. Cicero Grimes (Richard Boone in *Hombre* ) > 8. Frank (Henry Fonda in *Once Upon a Time in the West* ) > 9. Jack Bruhn (Burl Ives in *Day of the Outlaw* ) > 10. Gannon (John McIntire in *The Far Country* ) > 11. Old Man Clanton (Walter Brennan in *My Darling Clementine* ) > 12. Waco Johnnie Dean (Dan Duryea in *Winchester '73* ) > 13. Ramon Rojo (Gian Maria Volonte in *A Fistful of Dollars* ) > 14. Bob Larkin (Henry Fonda in *Firecreek* ) > 15. Tevis (Jack Elam in *The Gunfighter* ) > 16. Judge Roy Bean (Walter Brennan in *The Westerner* ) > 17. El Indio (Gian Maria Volonte in *For a Few Dollars More* ) > 18. Bill Masters (Lee Marvin in *Seven Men from Now* ) > 19. Whitey Harbin (Dan Duryea in *Night Passage* ) > 20. Bob Amory (Ben Johnson in *One-Eyed Jacks* ) > 21. **** (Henry Silva in *The Tall T* ) > 22. Claude (John Dehner in *Man of the West* ) > 23. Sheriff Dad Longworth (Karl Malden in *One-Eyed Jacks* ) > 24. Billy Keplinger (Steve Cochran in *The Deadly Companions* ) > 25. Jack Wilson (Jack Palance in *Shane* ) > THat's a great list! And I can't believe some of the ones I forgot...jack elam, ben, judge roy bean, as well as some that you kind of liked in spite of their wickedness (like fonda in firecreek...)

Oooh, those are some great ones. I still haven't seen *Unforgiven* which is unforgiveable. I do want to get to it, and soon. It's also been so long I didn't even remember Steiger was in *Jubal*. That's one actor I never associate with westerns, lol. I bet I've seen *No Name on the Bullet* but I don't remember it. Has it been on Encore? Is that the one where Audie gets control of a ranch and starts become power mad? And is Terry Moore his girlfriend? "Ben Wade" is a really good one. A very charismatic villain. Mine: 1. Liberty Valance 2. Jack Wilson in Shane 3. Pa Clanton in My Darling Clementine 4. Frank in Once Upon a Time in the West 5. Frank in The Tall T 6. Lee Marvin in Seven Men From Now 7. Ben Wade in 3:10 to Yuma 8. Bruce Dern in The Cowboys 9. Chuck Connors in The Big Country 10. Richard Boone in Hombre

The movie gives us a sampling of the kind "conversation" **** and Billy were capable of, so I can't blame Frank for feeling that way, ha! I often wonder about Frank's past, who and what he was. He's kind of like Doc Holliday, someone who suggest education and upbringing that went wrong somewhere. So who are your favorite western villains, moviemanofthewest?

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}Frank knows he is running with those well beneath him. He can see himself in some fashion as Pat. Isn't it almost as if he's anxious to prolong his time with Pat as much as possible. He's starved to talk to someone intelligent, someone he can respect. A very interesting element to throw into a hero/villain conflict.

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}Who am I? Dracula? Dr Mabuse.

Only one western villain here, but he's a good one. Frank, you make several cameo appearances!

> *Go see Barbra, maybe she has one for you. * > > Who?!

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}*PUT THAT DOWN! It's empty, anyway. * > > I already found that out! Dammit! It's time to scheme Jackie. > Oh no! Watch out Menzies! Hank is coming after you! > *Poor butterscotch, you obviously snubbed her.* > > She's busy entertaining Dean-O! > Ha!! Ring-a-ding-ding.

> Howdy, Fordy Guns -- I'm ready for my "hello, gorgeous"! > Go see Barbra, maybe she has one for you. > > So Plummer is purely needed to avenge a wrong. That tells you the villain isn't much needed in *Stagecoach*. > As an individual, no, but he's part of the evil fabric of the city of the "lord" (Lordsburg). > > Oh! I thought you were saying Frank brings things out of Brennan. That's where I was confused. It's true, Brennan is bringing things to the surface with Frank. It's the flip of the hero and villain roles. And I loved that about *The Tall T*. > I was asking you what you thought. Yes, I agree it's a flipped situtation. > Yes, you have it right. You got it. And are all western villains named "Frank"? There's *The Tall T*, *High Noon*, *Once Upon a Time in the West*, this message board... > What's in a name? Everything in this case.

PUT THAT DOWN! It's empty, anyway. Poor butterscotch, you obviously snubbed her.

> I can't watch two of them until Christmastime. They are on my X-Mas list. But I do have the other two. They have to be better than Crappy and Poopy! > Don't try to weasel out! And where is butterscotch? You need to be boiled in oil again. It's overdue.

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}*I can't ever conceive of a movie with a man being tortured by a 20th century penal system using medieval methods as "soft", but to each his own. * > > Your torture is way worse than that! A guy can get over a simple whipping in a prison. For that remark you must watch: *Summertime* *The Constant Nymph* *Brief Encounter* *Born to be Bad* And when your brother calls you up and asks what you're doing, you have to say "I'm watching The Constant Nymph."

> > You know, I just re-watched *Stagecoach* this year, yet I cannot remember the details of Luke Plummer. Did Ringo Kid kill a family member of his? So Plummer represents putting Ringo Kid's past to bed. > Plummer killed his father or brother, I can't remember which. Ringo tells Dallas and ends with, "You can't understand what it's like to lose your family/someone close to you" and that's when she tells how her family were massacred on Superstition Mountain (I'm going on memory, sorry). > *Maybe he's ambition, the need to dominate others or greed.* > > You think Brennan is that way? I'm only asking because I can't remember him that well, right now. He seemed to withdraw from society, right? > I remember we discussed how Frank seemed wistful about not having had a ranch, a real life, but didn't he admit at the end that he wanted the gold too much to change? I think he was a bit greedy. Scott was a simple man, he dreamed small, Frank was like a crooked Nathan Stark, he dreamed bigger. > Great descriptions! Boone is definitely the more outgoing, engaging actor. Scott is more like Coop. You have to pay attention to him (them). > I think moviemanofthewest go to it best. I also think Scott makes Boone look at himself. Especially in that "skinning" scene. Boone seems to make excuses for the two crazies with him, and Scott says something that made him think. I don't have this movie to refer to either, sorry! But it's kind of a reverse, instead of the hero being confronted with his fears in the person of the villain, the villain is confronted with his weaknesses in the hero.

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}I'm not sure that "Frank" in "The Tall T" represents another side of Scott's character as much as he might reflect it. He wants the things that Scott (Pat) wants. He wants a place and a normal sort of life but I think he is conviced he can't get it. It makes the evil of his deeds harder to take thus making him more complex than Pat. > > Going back to "Valance" (Don't we always?) I sometimes see Valance and Tom as two sides of the same coin. Tom is every bit as tough, every bit as hard as Valance but his side of the brain won't let him do it. Valance could never weep for a lost love but Tom is perfectly capable, if not willing, to shoot someone down from the shadows. This is the very thing we would expect of Valance. That difference also comes to Tom's ruination, at least part of it, where Valance would just wander off to his next victim. > > Shane and Wilson maybe don't fit that description but Shane surely understands Wilson. That doesn't make Shane just like him but there is a dark side that fits Shane's psyche. > > Anyway... I'll echo Jackie's "nice" and throw in a "hello, gorgeous!" As usual, you say in a few sentences what takes me forever. I like: "he doesn't represent so much as reflect..." And I remember all of us discussing Frank's own "road not taken", how he seemed to want a settled life but it didn't work that way. Maybe Scott is the one who's making Frank look at himself and his failings, the choices he didn't make or the man he wishes he could have been.

> {quote:title=JackFavell wrote:}{quote}I thought Robert Mitchum was a sap in *Out of the Past.* Talk about soft! > > h5. ooops. Sorry, Out of the Past fans. I agree (and I do love this movie). Like I said Grimes, you pick and choose, like we all do I suppose. I thought KTBOMH had some pretty tough things to it; I can't ever conceive of a movie with a man being tortured by a 20th century penal system using medieval methods as "soft", but to each his own.

I give up, you're trying to have it both ways. Most of your favorites have girls in them that represent the road not taken but this one you don't care for. And that's fine. To each his own.