Arkadin
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> {quote:title=Rickspade wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Arkadin wrote:}{quote}
> > > {quote:title=Rickspade wrote:}{quote}for me this film is still the noir from which all other noirs with "guys played for suckers" and guys who think they "figured all the angles" emanate from. Those stories all began with Double Indemnity.
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> > Actually, I'd say Renoir and French film started many of those stories from a movie standpoint. You can even find some silents and German expressionist works with similar angles.
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> Well, I'm not very familiar with Renoir's films of that period, but I'll take your word for it. I was referring to American movies anyway, although I know the French have created some wonderful noirs. DI was made in 1944, and to me it gave birth to the aspect of noir that deals with "guys played for suckers by nefarious dames" and guys who think they "figured out all the angles."
Renoir's *La Chienne* (1931) was remade into *Scarlet Street* (1945) by Fritz Lang. His *Le Crime de Monsieur Lange* (1936) also fits the mold of noir hero. *La Bete Humane* (1937) was again taken by Lang and transformed into *Human Desire* (1954). This is just one director's work. My point is that noir might have been labeled by the French about American crime films, but in actuality they (and Germany) had much to do with its creation.
> {quote:title=Rickspade wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Arkadin wrote:}{quote}
> > > {quote:title=Rickspade wrote:}{quote}Swanson might be an older woman, but she's still a spider with Joe in her web. Besides, who says every noir has to have a femme fatale? Gloria Grahame, who made her career in this genre, was never a femme fatale.
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> I agree they're not necessary, but admit it, the noirs with the classic femme fatales (Jane Greer in Out of the Past, Yvonne DeCarlo in Criss Cross, Joan Bennett in Scarlet Street, just to name three) are the most fun, no?
Depends on what you like. My favorite noir is *Force of Evil* (1948). There are many great noir films that have no femme fatale.
> {quote:title=Rickspade wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Arkadin wrote:}{quote}
> > > {quote:title=Rickspade wrote:}{quote}In a word, yes. *Pushover* is a much better film with better performances than *DI* in my opinion. That this film and *Rear Window* were both released the same year is staggering, as they both deal with the topic of voyeurism, but I'd even place *Pushover* higher than Hitchcock's film, as I find it much more layered.
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>I've seen Pushover once,. last year on TCM, and I really enjoyed it. Novak is one of my favorite actresses. But, I'm a little mystified by your take that it deals with the topic of voyeurism. I thought it was basically a story of a cop crossing the line, going after money and a dame. I mean there is certainly "spying" of people in their apartments going on, but it's under the confines of a police stakeout. And while the cops monitoring the apartments may become somewhat voyeuristic, I'd hardly compare them to James Stewart's character in Rear Window, who becomes absolutely obsessed not only with Raymond Burr's activities, but with all of the people living across the courtyard from him. Now, that's voyeurism. That said, I think Pushover has many excellent noir qualities, w/ two very good performances by MacMurray and Novak. MacMurray's character is a bit like Neff, if Neff had been a cop. An honest guy, who's just one step away from being led down the wrong road by a beautiful dame.
Check out the voyeurism class that ChiO conducted last fall here:
http://forums.tcm.com/jive/tcm/click.jspa?searchID=240070&messageID=8124480
Regarding *Pushover*, I posted this:
In *Pushover*, two different men fall in love with two different women they are spying on. Lives become intermingled until the men are infatuated and their objects literally become part of their lives. In *Witness to Murder* and *Rear Window* (all made the same year!) the connection is one of polar twins, that struggle against one another while revealing similarities in their characters, resourcefulness, and abilities.
Pushover's, voyeurism is initially part of a job, but it becomes much more than that. In fact as in *Rear Window*, other dwellers come under observation for completely different reasons and become part of the plot. I would definitely agree that both of MacMurray's characters are similar here (which is the reason I suggested it). Mr. Dewey1960 once eloquently likened the two films to "a jarring set of darkly burnished bookends".
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I don't know if I posted this one here or not:
*NAKED ALIBI* 1954
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CHM,
I'm just giving my opinion. I was not trying to trash *DI* or even criticize it. This thread started with a question and I weighed in, same as everyone else. Since I prefer to talk about what I like and not trash others favorites, I tried to point out what I did enjoy about the film and then place some other comparisons out there for discussion. As CM mentioned, *Double Indemnity* is a very straightforward work, and in my opinion, lacks the depth or layers of the other film she spoke of, *Out of the Past* (1947), which I would consider one of the cornerstones of noir. I enjoy *Double Indemnity* for what it is, but I honestly don't think it's the best noir ever made.
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> {quote:title=Rickspade wrote:}{quote}for me this film is still the noir from which all other noirs with "guys played for suckers" and guys who think they "figured all the angles" emanate from. Those stories all began with Double Indemnity.
Actually, I'd say Renoir and French film started many of those stories from a movie standpoint. You can even find some silents and German expressionist works with similar angles.
> {quote:title=Rickspade wrote:}{quote}The other films you mention above are all terrific, and as far as noirs go, Sacrlet Street is as good as it gets. But both Sunset Boulevard and Clash by Night veer away from the more classic noir elements (Swanson and Stanwyck, while certainly flawed, are hardly femme fatales
Swanson might be an older woman, but she's still a spider with Joe in her web. Besides, who says every noir has to have a femme fatale? Gloria Grahame, who made her career in this genre, was never a femme fatale.
> {quote:title=Rickspade wrote:}{quote}I like Pushover quite a bit, but do you really believe MacMurray is better used in that than in Double Indemnity ?
In a word, yes. *Pushover* is a much better film with better performances than *DI* in my opinion. That this film and *Rear Window* were both released the same year is staggering, as they both deal with the topic of voyeurism, but I'd even place *Pushover* higher than Hitchcock's film, as I find it much more layered.
The bottom line is, the question was posed: Is this is the greatest noir ever made? I personally don't think so, but I do find it to be an entertaining film. As for what I said about the characterizations, Phyllis and Walter are played very much as types and it's intentional. They are cold, heartless. Keys is warm and played with a more human element. Walter struggles to regain his humanity at the end of the story, which is what makes the close so touching. Still, it's Robinson's character on which the film pivots.
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While I enjoy *Double Indemnity*, I personally don't rate it as my favorite film noir or the best noir ever made. To be very honest, I don't know that I would really enjoy it at all if not for Edward G. Robinson's character who creates balance between the rigidness of MacMurray and Stanwyck. All three have been better used on other noirs and Wilder himself created a much deeper work with *Sunset Boulevard* (1950). I'd take MacMurray in *Pushover* (1954), Stanwyck in *Clash by Night* (1952) and for Eddie G., probably *Scarlet Street* (1945) or *The Night Has a Thousand Eyes* (1948).
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> {quote:title=Rickspade wrote:}{quote} was only speculating on which movie from your list other purists wouldn't consider a noir. Honestly, it never dawned on me that it would be The Third Man because it was not an American movie; I love the dark foreign films, and even though the best noirs I believe are American, there have been some good foreign ones. Have you seen Louis Malle's first movie, Elevator to the Gallows? I would certainly classify that as noir, although many critics classify it as the start of the New Wave. The there is Ossessione, Visconti's 1942 Italian version of The Postman Always Rings Twice, a terrific adaptation of Cain's story. One more would be Diabolique (the 1955 original, not the Sharon Stone remake), a very good movie. So I guess, my noir tastes can accommodate some foreign films, although my heart is always with the American noirs made during the 1940s and 1950s.
These films are definitely noir. You can also look to the French thirties films such as *Port of Shadows*, (1938) and *Daybreak* (1939) to see heavy influence on the noir canon (Fritz Lang actually remade several of Renoir's works which were pretty noirish to begin with, and what about *The Crime of Monsieur Lange* [1935]?). In fact, I would consider my favorite Fellini film, *Il Bidone* (1955) noir. While the genre rose to popularity in the forties and was categorized and labeled, people have been making (and continue to make) these types of films before and after the "classic" period. While I enjoy the 1940-58 period, I don't limit myself or my tastes to a single point in time or nationalites. Miles Davis played Jazz from the late forties till his death in 91. Ask him what his 70's music was like and he'd tell you it was Jazz. The critics might disagree, but a genre and style has to grow and evolve or else it ends up simply repeating itself and becomes stagnant.
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I totally agree. I think the beauty of this movie and similar works, is that they don't tell us what to think, but leave many side galleries, and and offshoots for us to explore. We make our own conclusions and have a personal stake in the film. It also gives us the opportunity to see the film in different ways, explore and discuss different themes, and discover more about our fellow man, which is a good thing.
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Well, I'm certain the sexual overtones were under the radar of some viewers. Remember this film was made under the code. One of the more amusing scenes is when Logan is challenged on his musical abilities by the Kid, who is then asked about his dancing. This is played very much as flirtation between the two men and we expect the Kid to dance for Johnny, but instead he grabs up Emma! Emma looks confused during the dance, as if she's not sure what to feel, and it's only the bumping of the table where her dead brother lies that breaks the spell. Thus, we have seen various forms of sexuality played out before our eyes. It's also no coincidence that Emma always wears a dress although her attitude is very "butch". Joan is clearly in control of her fate, her men, and her sexuality (at least she thinks she is). It is she who holds all the cards, owns the saloon, and knows about the railroad. She is the one that "wears the pants"--not her doppelganger. Does Emma really want Joan? I think that is possibly implied here, but the movie keeps turning us in different directions like the scene above and wisely leaves the conclusions up to us. As far as Joan being older, I do think that it was intentional to have an older woman control younger men (Joan has a lot of suitors!) as another sexual twist.
As for the film being printed on Eastman, I guess it's possible, but Eastman color always looked more muted to me personally. *JG* seems very bright and vivid, much like *The Wizard of Oz*, *The Red Shoes*, and other Three-strip films. It also seems to share those works dreamlike qualities. Of course, I could also be crazy as a mad hatter.
BTW, *Night of the Iguana* is a great film.
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Interesting. So do you think that *Johnny Guitar* is Three-Strip simply labled Truecolor? That was my first impression, but not having any definition of Truecolor, I was unsure what I was seeing.
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> {quote:title=FredCDobbs wrote:}{quote}
> > {quote:title=Arkadin wrote:}{quote}
> > *Johnny Guitar* is one of the most unique psychological westerns ever made. Nicholas Ray places layer on layer, mixing gender, genre, color, and outrageous symbolism to create a one of a kind film. Don't miss this one!
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> So what did you get out of this film? What "hidden" meaning does it have?
Oddly enough Fred, I was just thinking about asking you to explain the Truecolor process more deeply. I saw your earlier post discussing it and wanted to know more. I love the look, but have no idea of the mechanics.
As for "hidden meanings", I'm not quite sure what to say. I never indicated anything was hidden in the film. What I did say was it is an extremely dense work with lots of layers. The film has many different facets and is similar to *Citizen Kane* (1941) in the respect that we can?t just look at the surface, or take pieces here and there. *Johnny Guitar* is a movie that bears repeated watching and I?m not one to say I hold all the cards on this flick. I can point out some things, but again, these observations mean little without the combination of all the different elements. Sort of like making stew with one ingredient, or writing a book using only conjunctions.
First off, let?s look at a few of the layers:
Dialogue might be the most important element of this movie. It?s very talky for a western, but all the lines have significance. Some of them are double entendres, many have multiple meanings, but in most cases it?s not the lines, but who is saying them and how they are delivered that define intent. If the dialogue works equally through subtlety and bombast, The colors of this film are bold and drastic, using high contrasts, especially in clothing, to make the players stand out from their backgrounds. Gender also plays a role in women assuming leadership and high position at a time when most women?s lives consisted of being mothers or whores (Vienna alludes to this in her late night talk with Logan: ?A woman only has to slip once?? ). Sexuality, both straight and homosexual is also implied, and not just between the female leads. Finally, we have symbolic references such as Crawford?s white dress and McCambridge?s black funeral clothes (also the fact that in the opening and closing of the film Crawford wears pants), the destruction of Vienna?s by fire with the shooting of the chandelier, riding through the waterfall to the Dancin Kid?s lair, the dynamiting that shakes the mountains, and many others.
What I find at the core of *Johnny Guitar*, is the disillusion of honor and loyalty, slowly being replaced by self interest. As Ernest Borgnine?s character states, ?I like me!? . Vienna and Logan struggle to rebuild a destroyed relationship while outside pressures suggest that mankind itself is broken, as characters turn on each other in their own greed. While there is definitely a lesbian angle to Crawford and McCambridge?s relationship, their struggle against each other becomes symbolic of two distinct natures: One that can give and receive love, and the other which knows only hatred (Logan and the Kid are also doubles in another respect). The film closes as most westerns do?with a gun battle, but we learn through Vienna, Logan, and even the Dancin Kid, that redemption still exists in a flawed world and is possible for flawed people.
In closing, this is just a small look at the film and it can be read a dozen different ways. It would also help to place all the different layers together to understand what you are seeing, but hopefully, I've given you something to look for the next time you watch.
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Are you sure it was a hearse, and are you sure he was driving? Sounds a little bit like *Carnival of Souls* (1962). The film has a woman driving, while an eerie "man in black" keeps reappearing.
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I would not term *Our Man in Havana* as noir, but rather, an excellent comedy. Glad you enjoyed it. Did it inspire you to bone up on your chess playing skills or tolerance for liquor?
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*Our Man in Havana* is a hilarious film and one of my personal favorites. I hope you enjoy it.
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I was able to watch it last night. Nice little film and Reagan does a great job as well. She is really on a tear in this movie. I cringed watching her break the tubes in a PA. Those things would be worth a fortune today!
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I'm a big Ann fan as well. I recorded it, but haven't had a chance to watch yet. I wish TCM would spend a day on her films (especially the ones I haven't seen yet).
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*Way Down East* (1920)
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Garbo falls through the ice in *Flesh and the Devil* (1927) and is a ski instructor in *Two Faced Woman* (1941).
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*White Hell* is amazing. You might also like *S.O.S. Iceberg* (1933) another film with the infamous LR.
*The Mortal Storm* I think was mentioned a bit earlier here, but I agree, it's a beautiful looking film. I also like the heavy flakes at the end of the film where Robert Stack looks out the window and then walks through the deserted house and out into the snow. Borzage's film before this one, *Three Comrades* (1938) is also a personal favorite with some great winter scenes.
As a noir enthusiast how could I forget *On Dangerous Ground* (1952)?
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*The White Hell of Pitz Palu* (1929)
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I love snowbound westerns. Some of my favorites would be *McCabe & Mrs. Miller* (1971), *Day of the Outlaw* (1959), *Track of the Cat* (1954), and *The Great Silence* (1968).
Here are some beautiful winter scenes from *The Great Silence* with music by Ennio Moriconne:
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We had a little discussion at SSO about these films:
http://silverscreenoasis.com/oasis/viewtopic.php?t=2626&highlight=
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Very true. Your critical analysis is first rate!
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> {quote:title=PhillColeman wrote:} The goal in this film was not just to show the Russian front for its German heroism and stamina but also to show how human personalities interact in the most futile of combat situations. Peckinpah correctly profiled the tireless, competent German sergeant who knew more about combat in his theatre than his officers.
Totally agree. There is also the question of humanity and worth of life, be it officer or private, friend or foe. When Sgt. Stiener is told that he cannot measure up to another officer in terms of class and depth, he mentions Schubert and others who rose from poverty. His Captain replies: "We are talking about broad ideals--not individuals." to which Stiener replies: "But I am one--and so are you." Here Peckinpah asserts that one's station does not define who he is. Life is what we make of it.
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This is indeed an incredible film with a great cast. While not quite on the level of Rossellini's *Open City* (1945), *Edge of Darkness* is a very realistic portrayal of Nazi resistance. The film's broad theme could easily have degenerated into simple type characters, but instead Robert Rossen's script gives depth and personality to the players. Like Borzage's *Mortal Storm* (1940) (also OOP), *Edge of Darkness* is a film about choices. The heart of both movies is the realistic notion that the right choice is no guarantee of personal safety, but in fact, leads to sacrifice.
Gloria Grahame a complete package
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*The Good Die Young* (1954) is a slow moving heist film. GG's accent is horrible, but it's still a enjoyable film and yes, that is Richard Basehart. I managed to record it off TCM about two years ago and to my knowlege that's the only time it's been shown.