casablancalover
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Posts posted by casablancalover
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Sprocket-
Point well taken. This is Rick's story. It is what you say. Rick represents the detached onlooker we can become when cynical.
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h4. And the Price We Pay for Not Sticking The Neck Out
And look what that mentality did for Mary MacGregor.. One hit wonder.
She knows her mind, yet she lets fear of disappointment keep her in limbo. If she doesn't commit to one or other, then she gives away her power, over to others, to decide for her.
Thanks for helping me prove a point.
Whether the singer or the character in a movie, it's not win-win.
h5. After thinking it through, Casa added:
Sorry if I seemed sort of harsh, Dargo. Met a total jerk for coffee this afternoon. I guess I got a little stressed- like Ilsa with a gun in her hand and not a well-thought out plan of escape. We need to support those indecisive around us and not admonishing them.
I will take my crow with a wild rice mixture and green beans.
Edited by: casablancalover on Oct 30, 2011 6:54 PM in an attempt edit conceit from her comments
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Very quiet, only Ilsa quietly weeping, then maybe some nonsensical small talk.. I am glad the movie ended their part of the story when they did. I think anybody who has been through a divorce, no matter what the reason for the divorce, could identify with their awkward situation.
Yeah, I like to believe Ilsa will stop having people think for her anymore.
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h4. Thank you, SoCalGal16, But I am going to stick out my neck on this point..
There is the story, and there is a reality behind it.
There is a very practical side to Rick. Rick is putting Ilsa out of danger. His tarmac speech sounds true, but it doesn't ring true. What happens to "three little people don't amount to hill of beans" when there's a war on. She's in tears; she wants to stay, but she told Rick to think for her. Now he's putting her on that plane. He talks about what Victor means to her, in spite of how she feels about Victor now. Rick pretty much told Ilsa that now she will think for herself, or Victor will guilt her forever.
>Rick: Now, you've got to listen to me! You have any idea what you'd have to look forward to if you stayed here? Nine chances out of ten, we'd both wind up in a concentration camp. Isn't that true, Louie?
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>Captain Renault: I'm afraid Major Strasser would insist.
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>Ilsa: You're saying this only to make me go.
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>Rick: I'm saying it because it's true. Inside of us, we both know you belong with Victor. You're part of his work, the thing that keeps him going. If that plane leaves the ground and you're not with him, you'll regret it. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of your life.
It's amazing, but with that comment, who's sacrificing now? Ilsa and Rick.
Rick leaves her with the thought- that there, and now, and forever, Rick loves her, and that won't change.
>Ilsa: But what about us?
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>Rick: We'll always have Paris. We didn't have, we, we lost it until you came to Casablanca. We got it back last night.
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>Ilsa: When I said I would never leave you.
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>Rick: And you never will. But I've got a job to do, too. Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of. Ilsa, I'm no good at being noble, but it doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. Someday you'll understand that.
>[ilsa lowers her head and begins to cry]
>Rick: Now, now..
>[Rick gently places his hand under her chin and raises it so their eyes meet]
>Rick: Here's looking at you kid.
Remember what Renault's says to Rick:
>. . . She got on that plane, but she knew you were lying..
Furthermore, I don't believe Victor would keep Ilsa if there is a honest heart in Victor about his character. He loves her very much; this is true. But with a war on, can and would he win her back? I can see their relationship honestly dissolving once they reach America. He will be very occupied with his work -which is what was happening anyway- the reason Ilsa was in relationship, yet very isolated. Ilsa will remain a lonely woman. I think she will be feeling guilty no matter happens to her.
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>Dargo wrote: LOL!!!
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>Yeah Charlotte, when ya THINK about it, this thread IS just another way of sayin'...
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>"Okay all you 'Old Timers'! What was it like around here in those 'Olden Days', huh?!"
Hey, I worry enough about some guy I'm dating being able to drive at night.. LOL... You know you're mature enough for TCM, because:
Je reviens plus ****..
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HAha! And we know how Ilsa wants someone else to do the thinking for her...
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LOL. I'have already posted to the old fogey thread, I'm not commenting to this one.
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Wow.. I did not know this. Of the story lines to sequel or continue, I would not pick this. Rick and Renault's future was in a way much more open-ended. The audience at the end of Casablanca were left with an "all is going to be good" feeling about Victor Laszlo. That's the way we like that type of hero..
The team of R&R, they are heading to an entirely different venue, where their future is better fodder for a story, with less preconceived notions that Lisbon was leading the audience to consider. By Warners giving us The Conspirators, they do pull the rug out from under us. Its not quite a dirty trick to put Henreid in danger yet again, but the audience did not want to cheated out of their ending to Casablanca..
Think of the way we are musing about it..
Thank you so much for the rich information, MovieProfessor..
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h4. I feel I am in the messageboard version of where did I put my glasses??
This is the most confounding part of the latest upgrade..
Now I can find my friends latest posts and respond, Kudos for that! But where I am in Category.. ??
Maybe it's a plot to limit the number of geezers at any one time..
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>*You have such a head for knowing!*
Anita Gillette
Moonstruck
(1987)
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>Dobbs wrote: I think the director and screenwriters had Renault contact Strasser, because Renault knew he would be in a lot of trouble if he let Victor escape from Casablanca without contacting Strasser.
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>Ever since Strasser arrived in Casablanca, Renault was in a very dangerous situation, and he could have been removed (shot, killed, arrested) from his position by Strasser at any time.
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>Once Strasser was removed by Rick, then Renault was able to relax and be his nice ol' self again.
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>Conrad Veidt was really great as Strasser. A perfect performance.
Fancy triangulating. But with Germans, there's always more where they came from, so Renault had to hightail it out of town. There are romantic triangles and the political ones being played out in the story. I like how Renault claims he'll blow with the wind, and the current wind is from Vichy.. Just realized, he's sort of playing it in-between like Ilsa.. Hum..
To look at it another way, Ilsa couldn't make up her mind, and with human nature, someone else will make up her mind for her. Renault is looking for the angle, and sometimes that will play out better if he just stands back.
Conrad Veidt I thought played a better Nazi than Hitler. It was perfect.
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>>Rick shoots Strasser for the all-too-obvious reason that the German was in the process of calling the radio tower to stop the Lisbon-bound plane from taking off
>You've got to face it someday, CineSage. Strasser tried to stop the plane from taking off BECAUSE THE GERMANS DID NOT RECOGNIZE OR APPROVE OF THE LETTERS OF TRANSIT SIGNED BY DE GAULLE.
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>Letters of transit signed by De Gaulle were designed to be used by Free French and other anti-Nazi allies for passing through free French territory, neutral countries, and allied countries.
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>Letters of transit designed for the free travel of Nazi supporters and pro-Nazi Germans through Nazi-held territory would be signed by some Nazi official.
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>You have allowed yourself to be misled by the fact that two Nazi couriers were in possession of the De Gaulle letters. Nazis used captured letters and other documents like that for their own spies to infiltrate into allied territory.
Strasser's shot because of Renault's fumbling with the lives of three little people. Strasser didn't even know what was going on until Renault did his phony call to the airport.
You guys get too obsessed about these letters. Their story prop #1, that's all. The character's explain letters of transit as the golden ticket. It's the Maltese Falcon of the story.. Dangerous to possess (just ask Ugaate) , But desired by the noble and ignoble just the same.
Again, a lovely, clever twist in storytelling.
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*JefCostello wrote: I just don't remember the film ever explaining in any kind of detail the reason for him leaving to America. It makes it sound like he's running away from the Nazis, which doesn't mesh with his character.*
That seems easy for me to understand. It would be to provide Washington with lots of solid, sensitive information, and to prepare for work in the OSS.. I think that is what many people would have thought at the time. Victor's knowledge was valuable, that was even suggested by Strasser.
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h3. Cool. . . How many threads can we run on Casablanca?
True, mrroberts, the story was being written on the fly, but the Epsteins I believe knew how it had to end, with the Hays office and all. Still, there was opportunity galore to give Ilsa and Victor their worldly noble, but privately painful motivations, and to give Rick and Renault their fleeing to Brazzaville a really great beginning. If you can take these leaps with your suspension of disbelief, this is one of the great stories.
As storytelling goes, the writers created a situation where they did paint themselves into a corner. I think they must have considered all kinds of scenarios:
1. Victor getting killed-- not likely,
2. Rick making the noble gesture to love and getting killed for saving Victor and Ilsa--Humphrey do a swan song?-- not likely.
3. Ilsa dying on the tarmac-- not likely, though something that a rewrite of Casablanca would do for the Lifetime Channel.
I wonder if the Epstein's wrote the wager scene, in the beginning of the movie, to further establish for us how Rick's and Renault's characters would play?
h5. Hum, Opportunity Galore. . .. maybe Dargo could look that up- I think she was a stripper in a club on Hendry St.. ;-)
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Absolutely do NOT feel like a fogie, so I am not one. One advantage to living in God's waiting room (FL), I guess. Lots of seniors around. In Minnesota, sometimes I would go into a store or my workplace, then realize I was the oldest person in there! Not a happy discovery. Hasn't happen here yet.
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Tea Eggs are delicious! Thank you for sharing the recipe; I wondered if I could make them.
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Dionne Warwick to another movie, but this time not singing.. But it's her best work...
Enjoy:
Edited by: casablancalover on Oct 23, 2011 9:05 PM
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I shot some video yesterday at the local Occupy Park here. I recommend everyone go down and talk to a few folks.
I met one young man, Ryan, 19 years old, homeless and from OK. His job disappeared when his employer changed the status from full time to seasonal/part time to the only decent job he had. Family members invited him here to Ft Myers to live and work. So now he's here. So now he's unemployed, again homeless, and now in a strange city. No money to return to Oklahoma. He even had to borrow a tent, which one of the occupiers here loaned him. His girlfriend is with him, and I think she prevents him from falling into despair.
>*That Casy. He might have been a preacher but he seen things clear. He was like a lantern. He helped me to see things clear.*
Henry Fonda
The Grapes of Wrath
(1940)
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Maybe you can understand why I love this story so much?
The story has turned out so well crafted, we are won over to supporting and rooting for these very less than perfect characters, even poor Joy Page's intent to **** herself for exit visas. As many times as I watch it, it seems the true nobility of in the movie is Victor's. But as they board the plane, even Renault has decided that he leaves with an unfaithful wife, though he sees Rick's nobility.
Now the two men have stuck their neck out.... about three feet! Rick solves his personal problem; but now it's Renault's interference that causes Strasser to be shot! The problems of three little people indeed! Of course, they are not going to be noble and announce their brave and daring act to the people of Casablanca.. So the two men who opened this story are fleeing to Brazzaville. There's a Free French garrison there.
I believe this is the universal truth. Nobility and character exists on many levels. None of us are without something we would rather keep in the past and secret. Ilsa's heart lies with Rick. She loves him so much to risk the truth, but not the same for Victor. It's not that she doesn't love Victor, but she doe's idolize him. She cannot risk being seen other than the devoted, secret wife. As kind and as charming as he is, Victor would be near impossible to measure up to as a person he would love, his character is so perfectly noble. In this story and it's message, wouldn't he have to be? Maybe he's fleeing to America; but I think for him, he's not staying -he would return to the war, probably in the OSS.
Rick's character is so real and lovable because of his faults, not in spite of them. His honesty and weaknesses, yet his passion for Ilsa -- she couldn't and didn't stop him, and willingly returned his love. They do make a point of telling us his past as well, to even the deck between him and Victor.
I love this movie. It give us so many truths to think about even if there wasn't the war story going on.. War is man's chaos to God's order. Love is God's grace to man's chaos.
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>FredCDobbs wrote in part:
>Well, if it had been real life, the night she visited Rick with her gun, he realized he couldn't trust her ever again.
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>She left him for Victor, without telling him why. And she was willing to leave Victor for him, without telling Victor why.
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>She might have been a nice looking dame, but she could never be trusted again.
I don't see this turning point in the plot as a trust issue; more about that later. But what sets up that scene is where Ilsa gets her idea to see Rick, packing heat. I agree with VX on this part.
The Epstein's thought turning the plot this way ties up the motivations of Ilsa, who has been playing it in between Rick and Victor through the movie.
I find Ilsa's logic behind her actions fascinating. In the dark of the hotel room, Victor is being so understanding. She feigns support for Victor, yet once Victor leaves for the underground meeting, she is desperate to get those letters that Victor has just told her are in the possession of Rick. Having seen it so many times, I see Ilsa can no longer be just the pretty hanger-on to Victor. She loves Rick, but sees no resolution to her dilemma with Victor. If she can get those letters, she can get Victor to leave, either together or just Victor.
She draws a gun on Rick, threatening him to give her the letters.
h4. Ilsa: All right, I tried to reason with you..I've tired everything. Now I want those letters. Get them for me.
Rick sees this play out.
h4. RIck: I don't have to. I've got them right here.
h4. Ilsa: Put them on the table.
h4. Rick: No.
h4. Ilsa: For the last time, put them on the table.
Her drawing the gun was shocking for him, but he also figures if the woman he loves is going to shoot him for those letters, then he sees no good resolution in his dilemma with her either.
h4. Rick: If Laszlo and the cause mean so much to you, you won't stop at anything.
h4. All right. I'll make it easier for you..
(Rick walks up closer to Ilsa)
h4. Go Ahead and shoot. You''ll be doing me a favor.
While she does pull a gun on Rick, it is clear she cannot use it. She knows she loves Rick; she can no longer deny it, even to herself. But she also supports the cause they all are fighting for.
I believe Rick hatches his plan well after he and Ilsa, er, um, reconcile..I believe he thinks of it later that night, after his conversation with Lazslo, and the larger issues they are dealing with.
The convolution of motivation gets deeper. Remember the scene with Farrari at the Blue Parrot? The suggestion that she and Victor part ways and she go on alone? The scene is designed to let us see how devoted this couple see themselves. Is this the feeling she later describes to Rick as, "... a feeling she supposed was love..."?
Remember. this is only a movie, and a great one to deconstruct plot.
I think in actual life, Ilsa having an affair with Rick within weeks of Victor's capture would be for Victor a bit disheartening.. I can see where the trust would be compromised. .
Edited by: casablancalover on Oct 23, 2011 12:49 AM
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Gershwin on a Saturday night:
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>She's one of those third year girls who gripe my liver... You know, American college kids. They come over here to take their third year and lap up a little culture... They're officious and dull. They're always making profound observations they've overheard.
Gene Kelly
An American in Paris
(1951)
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Ha! Looking at the long list from some of these men... oh, boy.. real loyalty.
Me?
*Joel McCrea*
h5. sandy hair, boyish charm.. but still has the smarts for witty conversation
Off Topic: Favorite Music?
in Your Favorites
Posted
Marshall Crenshaw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztTa7KCRi8M