FrankGrimes

I forgot to mention that in the book, in that scene in your earlier screencaps of Martha putting Debbie out the window to hide---in that scene LeMay has the father, Aaron, instructing her what to do and Martha says hardly a word. Ford definitely got that one right. What mother wouldn't break down under such a horrible circumstance? Also, Laurie doesn't show as much emotion publicly in the book---her one burst of emotion so far was alone in her bedroom---two examples of how Ford fleshes out the female roles. The biggest and most pleasant surprise in the Ford films I have seen to date are his female characters. I have loved most of them. I think he does a phenomenal job of presenting the audience with very complex, emotional women while all the same making them rather simple and easy to understand. However, Olive Carey is the spitting image of Mrs Jorgensen (Mathison) as written. She perfectly captures her plain honesty and sympathy. So LeMay actually got one of the female characters right then, eh? I really like Ma Jorgensen because she looks tired most of the film. She's a woman who puts a lot of energy towards being a wife and mother. I also like what you mentioned about Ethan's "that'll be the day" and Marty's "not likely". I wouldn't have picked up on the similar way the expressions are used. Thanks. Marty has a lot of Ethan's stubborn determination inside of him. No, you are wrong. In the book it makes it clear that several times Marty was ready to give up and had lost all hope but that Ethan's implacability kept him going and eventually, kept him going if only to keep Ethan from killing Debbie. Marty just isn't made of the same degree of stuff that makes a man like Ethan keep on keeping on. Book?! I'm talking Ford's film. Marty doesn't want to give up. He's even more gung-ho than Ethan because he's leaving a woman that loves him behind. Ethan has no ties. And Ethan understood the Comanche mind more than Marty. That's the inexperience I speak of. Marty's a young lad. You talk like a lawyer. I was referring to your general habits; these wonderful exceptions merely PROVE the rule. Ohhh, for goodness sake. It's not like I write just a little thing here and there and that's it. I put some real energy into my efforts. You're just bitter because you want to be the first person to fill me full of lead in Hadleyville.

Howdy, Miss Demanding -- Yes but who kept on searching? Marty would have given up long before---Ethan would NEVER give up. Wrong! Marty wasn't going to give up either. And it was HE who demanded to go get Debbie at the end. He and only he. Ethan didn't care if that "Buck" lived or died. The only thing ineffectual about Marty was his inexperience and his lacking funds. I am so used to you watching movies and NOT talking about them, I guess I assumed more might be hoped if you listened to a commentary. Hey! I've spent hours discussing The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance and now The Searchers. I also spent time talking about The Misfits and, gasp, Gone with the Wind. Where's the love? I'm heartbroken. Howdy, Chris -- I'm not near as smart as most of you Pish-posh! but one thing has always bothered me about the film (forgive me if you've covered it.) Why would Ethan spend five years slogging all over creation with a man, who is determined to find Debbie and bring her home, if all he wants to do is kill her? I thought, "why bother?" She's dead to him anyway. Part of me wants to be a romantic and think that he really intended to bring her home all along. She's part of him (no matter how little) and worth saving as much as Marty thinks so. He's conflicted, no doubt, otherwise why pull the gun on her but I just don't see him being so nasty as to kill his kin. Maybe he went along to keep Marty from getting himself killed. He never surrenders. I believe, for Ethan, the search starts off as a search for Debbie (and Lucy) but it ends up becoming more of a mission to kill Scar; to avenge the deaths of his mother, Martha, and the rest of his loved ones. I'm of the belief that Ethan only turned against Debbie when she rejected them. She was basically spitting in their faces and, most importantly, spitting in the faces of Martha and Aaron. Debbie is siding with the enemy. She's a traitor in the eyes of Ethan. She's impure.

I agree with the second part but I don't even understand the first part. What do you mean by "find himself"? Ethan needs to heal his soul and he's not going to be able to do this while hanging around. This is the search for Ethan. He must find who he is today and, more importantly, who he wants to be tomorrow. What he really needs is a good woman. Martha's death, in a morbid way, may help to free him. I know the death of Scar certainly frees him. They had the good intentions and they were more "civilized" I agree, but they were ineffectual and would have ended up in the bone orchard without Tom and Ethan. Yes with Ranse, but not so much with Marty. Marty did go into the snake's den and take out the king cobra all by himself. Whaaaat? Why??!!! What do FP and SWAYR have to do with Clem? Excuses, excuses. Tsk tsk and double shame. I'm thinking those two films may come up with Scott Eyman more so than Petey. I thought you would be getting on me to actually WATCH more Ford films more so than listen to a commentary track.

I know, I know! But it still is too hard to take! It's just not FAIR. Ethan is as deserving of love and rest as any man at this point, and only those people crowded into that little house can give it to him but they DON'T. That's not the love and rest Ethan is seeking. He needs to go find himself. I think that once he finds himself, he could come back and do what I believe to be his ultimate duty: be a father figure to Debbie. Ethan will continue to carry a torch for Martha and the greatest thing he could do for her is make sure her little Debbie is safe and sound. Again, men should not abandon their girls. It's like Hallie turning her back on TOM. Tom took her for granted. He assumed she'd always be his girl because he was the man in town. So THEY are the cowards, if you ask me, not ETHAN, not TOM. But they must pay...and pay....and pay. No, no, no. Ranse stood up to Valance and it was Marty who stood up to Scar. Without the bravery of these two men, who knows how much more killin' would have gone on. Oh my goodness! I forgot to answer your question about the Bogdanovich commentary for The Searchers and the answer is NO. I am glad you reminded me. I want to really "settle in" for that one. I love Pete's commentaries. Bogdanovich has a wonderful eye for filmmaking, a passion for classic film, and a love of Ford, so I'm assuming the commentary is going to be quite informative and very entertaining. I really love Bogdanovich's commentaries because they are "director-oriented" and he does have a pretty good sense of humor, albeit very dry. So that leads me to a question of my own: did you listen to SCOTT's commentary on My Darling Clementine?????? No, I have not. I'm afraid to do so since I haven't talked about the film that much yet. I'm thinking I may need to watch Fort Apache and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon first, too.

Good Evenin', Mrs. Edwards -- My goodness gracious, Frank! You're becoming a real Ford connoisseur!! Lynn threatened to scalp me if I didn't contribute to her thread. So do you think it's safe to ask the biggest question on my mind, who is the bigger coward, Ethan Edwards or Tom Doniphon? Yes, I'll remain civilized, just like your darling Ranse. Perfectly expressed! And perfectly in keeping with that delicate thread which runs through so many of John's films, this persistently felt presence of the past looking out for the future, tenderly and hopefully (but always expressed obliquely). Uh-oh. You have been drinking again. You first paid me a compliment and then you made a magnificent point while using lovely language. I think you've had enough for one night, Missy. You're becoming quite expert! I have to admit that I NEVER noticed before that Wayne makes that gesture there---I only notice it at the end. Golly Mose! That tears it! You're off to the slammer to sleep this one off! I wept just reading the bit about the lonesomeness of Ethan and the lyrics to "Ride Away". I can never hear that song unmoved. You don't cry. That's just your ice melting. I still wish someone had called to him to come and join them inside. You know better. That's not the point of "searching" for one's self. Ethan's search continues... and it may never end.

Howdy, JackieF! -- Wow, Frank! When you join the party, things start really heatin' up! Great caps.... and great observations. Thank ya kindly, ma'am. I, too noticed Marty's kiss on Martha's forehead the last time watching the movie and thought it was very telling. I thought it was a nice little touch by Ford. The smallest of things can say a lot about a character(s). I also think it is fascinating that each time Ethan gives something, he gets really snotty. In the scene at the dinner table, when Aaron says to Marty (I'm paraphrasing) "Ethan is the one that found you", Ethan says, "it just happened to be me, no need to make more of it". No one is making more of it! It really shocks the table when he says that because it feels very cold towards Marty. Ethan is basically saying, "no big deal," to saving Marty's life. But I think Ethan just didn't want to discuss his finding Marty. He wanted to get off the topic. The way Ford concludes the scene is very intriguing to me because he shows us Ethan looking down the table at Marty three different times in a matter of seconds. He's clearly interested in Marty for whatever reason. At first I thought it was his hatred of Marty's Indian blood. Now, I think it's a clue to Ethan's true character and he does NOT want people thinking he is weak, or sentimental, or maybe he just doesn't want to be perceived as hogging attention? I believe there's some truth to that. Maybe he doesn't want anyone connecting him and Marty, or finding something out? This is something I have thought about since revisiting the film. The constant looks Ethan gives Marty at the table stick with me. I don't know, but he does it again when he gives Debbie the medal. He says" Doesn't mean much, now" or words to that effect. He makes less of his really important actions. He tries to throw away his good side somehow. Or he is trying to hide something. I do believe Ethan is attempting to be modest but I also get the sense he isn't telling the entire story. Martha is the one who clues me in on this with Ethan. The part where Ethan tells Marty "There's something I want you to know ....." is the real mystery isn't it? The rest of the sentence can't be " I've decided not to kill Debbie and bring her back home, because this scene is before he tries to shoot her. It's definitely not that. Is he going to say "I'm leaving you all my property"? I don't think so, because they just had a fight, and Ethan made it very clear Marty was not kin to the family.... I don't see Ethan leaving him his property. Maybe he just wants to say I'm sorry? No the tone in the scene does not add up to such a statement, and I don't think Ethan would ever say it. Ethan was speaking in a very kindly tone, but I don't think he was going to apologize to him. Something to the effect of I had an affair with Mrs. Pauley and you're my son.... HMMMMM. Now that would be interesting. Howdy, Fordy Guns! -- Bravissimo, Frank! I must say you have made the strongest case yet for me regarding the possibility of a blood tie between Ethan and Marty. And it's not through words but through the caps, especially the similar actions and expressions of Marty and his Uncle. Thank ya kindly, ma'am. I wonder if any of the many other writers who have covered this movie in depth have observed these things? I'm sure they have. Have you listened to Peter Bogdanovich's commentary track yet? I haven't, but I'm excited to do so. You know how much I love Petey. The Pauley's were known to the both the Jorgensens and the Edwardses, so how could it be explained that Ethan was the father of Marty? I can't see Martha---nor Aaron and the neighbors, but especially Martha---viewing Ethan the same if she knew he'd fathered a child out of wedlock (and with an Indian woman?) and abandoned the mother. A woman like her could stand his being 10 different kinds of outlaw or murderer---but that (and right in the midst of their little community)? If she was in love with him? That is the part that still doesn't gel with me. And Aaron is not lying, clearly, when he says that about Marty being found by his Uncle after his parents were massacred---he must have been there to see it and there is nothing to indicate he is a man who could lie so lightly about a thing like that. All excellent points. What you just wrote has a lot to do with why I don't believe Ethan and Marty are father and son. In the book, what Ethan wanted to tell Marty was that he should stay behind with Mathison (Jorgenson) and make a start for himself with Laure--and that if he (Ethan) didn't come back, he was leaving his (Martha & Aaron's) ranch to Marty. I still think this may be what he intends to say in the movie version---he does say it later on. If his "true" parentage is what he is about to reveal, Could the father/son relationship between Ethan and Marty be more symbolic and spiritual? Ethan has lost Martha and Debbie is Aaron's child restored to her home---but Marty is like him, rootless, so in his mind could he have come to think of him as his and Martha's child? You just wrote what I feel: symbolic and spiritual. I think Ethan sees himself in Marty. I believe Ethan could have had the life Marty can have but he passed up on it. I think Martha was his "Laurie" and he could have settled down with her. Ethan doesn't want Marty to make the same mistake he did because I think he sincerely regrets it. As the film progresses, you do get the sense than Ethan is a father to Marty. He actually enjoys his company and I think he admires that Marty stands up to him; he's not afraid to put his life on the line for what he believes in. This is Ethan through and through. In the end, I think it's Marty that helps convince Ethan that Debbie is worth saving. I believe Ethan saw all Marty was willing to risk for his "sister." It was like looking in a mirror, like looking at your "son." Lonely men can become very coarse over time and they will often lose their way. What can bring them back is the presence of a woman and/or family. Ethan has been without this for years but Martha and, especially, Marty help bring him back. Sadly, Ethan is left to wander alone again at the end of the film. His heart, more broken than it was before. What makes a man to wander What makes a man to roam What makes a man leave bed and board And turn his back on home Ride away Ride away Ride away A man will search his heart and soul Go searchin' way out there His peace of mind, he knows he'll find But where, oh Lord, Lord, where Ride away Ride away Ride away This is what I really think Ethan was going to tell Marty: Ethan turns his back and walks away. I believe he thinks Marty is going to react and feel the same hate and rage that he does about the murder of his own mother. This is where Marty is different than Ethan. He basically says, "it's not about me, it's about my 'sister.'" Ethan is surprised by the fact that Marty is not angered by the news that his mother was murdered by Scar. What I love about this cap is that it plays like a father telling his son, "no." Ethan doesn't bark these words at Marty. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Ethan is speaking like a father who doesn't want to lose his son. He can't even look him in the eye because he's scared to show he cares about him. I also love the Harry Carey Sr. homage at this point. I think it adds to the tenderness of the moment. Sam steps in and tells Marty, go right ahead. I like the usage of the word "son," too. Ethan is looking at Sam like a father would to a man who is circumventing his word. Meanwhile, Marty keeps his eyes on Ethan, his "father." In the next few caps, Sam lays the law down with Marty. After Sam gives the "okay" to Marty, Marty stares into Ethan's eyes. He's basically acting like a son looking for the "okay" from his father. Ethan, in his own way, lets Marty know that he's still against his decision but it's his decision. It's very father-son. Marty looks Ethan dead in the eye. No words are said and none need to be said. This is the language many men speak. It's the language many fathers and sons speak. One of the most touching scenes in The Searchers is done with great subtlety. Just before Marty is to be lowered into the canyon, Ethan looks him in the eyes. Once again, nary a word is said. This is a father letting his son know that he's proud of him but also very concerned for him. Marty is attempting to leave childhood and enter manhood. This is very reminiscent of Ford's Rio Grande ending. Ethan gives Marty not one but two pats of encouragement. And in classic father-son fashion, he makes the second pat while looking down at the ground. He's attempting to conceal his true, honest feelings from Martin. He really does care about his "son." This cap can be viewed metaphorically. It's a "letting go" moment.

Per usual, that was a terrific post, Moira! I just wanted to quickly add that A.I. Bezzerides penned one of Miss G's favorite films noir: On Dangerous Ground. The Bezzerides-Nick Ray combination was highly successful.

I got to see Red River and Stagecoach on the big screen for the first time last night. Woo hoo! Lucky you! I think Red River tends to get higher marks from guys than gals because it's a "father-son" relationship film. The ending is its weakest part for me. It's a little too easy and not very dramatic at all. Joanne Dru's performance is also one of the weaker elements to the film. There's not much depth to her performance and this makes her character also look rather shallow. She's more of a "pleader," which is something many women tend to dislike with a passion. I like "pleaders" as a change of pace, but I much prefer feisty gals. I definitely agree with you about Hawks' heroines rarely feeling genuine. You're an extremely perceptive girl and I'd take your word on female characters above my mine most every single time.

Veronica Lake! Thanks, Sweet T! Veronica always puts a smile on my face. I love the photo right below the one with Alan Ladd. Wow! She's super-sultry in that pic.

I'm here for just one sec but...

And here I was all happy to see you here and then you misunderstood what I said and got all snippy. Snippy? Oooohhh, you just made someone's day with that one. I was kidding, of course. I don't think there's a question at the bottom of my post.

I'm not sure if there is a problem with me Do you want the truth? or with the last few of your screen caps but either way I can't see them so if there was a question connected to them, I guess you will have to repost it. Repost them?! Forget it! Actually, all of the caps are viewable for me, so maybe you could try hitting "refresh." There are no questions with the caps at the bottom of my post. I would have shrunk the size of the caps but I'm still smarting from Snippy Squaw's scolding of me the last time. I really enjoyed the ones I could see, btw! Thanks! Sometimes I show up.

Kyle & CineBabe -- What does it say that I have posted the most on this thread? Hmmm, I wonder.

That was a wonderful article on the film noir connection of Widmark and Dassin. Thanks for posting the link. The next film noir I'm gonna watch is definitely going to be Night and the City. How I've resisted Gene Tierney, Widmark, and Dassin this long is beyond me. I also have Thieves' Highway and Rififi on DVD. Tsk, tsk, shame and double shame.

Mom's fine, thanks, Scott; she's driving as if she never left the car, and her doctor hopes her eye will heal naturally on its own now. That's wonderful news, B. I'm very glad to hear it. To attend my class, watching a Greer Garson movie is a prerequisite. I've seen two Greer films! So do I pass? I'm not looking for an "A". Preferably P&P. Dammit. Now Miss Greer is not the reason I only saw THE HAPPIEST MILLIONAIRE once. She's just one of the many reasons. It's because I don't like seeing venerable movie stars surrounded by reptiles. Or, in the case of NIGHT OF THE LEPUS, being stalked by killer bunnies. Night of the Demon! Dana Andrews! I think the only way you'd watch P&P is if it was a noir version starring another GG and had Humphrey Bogart as Mr. Darcy. Bogie and the REAL Double G ( ) in a noir Pride & Prejudice? Sounds intriguing.

Excellent stuff, Whistlin' G! I really enjoyed what you wrote about William Austin and the Batman serial. You are very correct about Austin being the model for who many of us Batman fans have come to know as "Alfred." Marvelous info. Thanks.

april isnt a sourpuss! april is a sweet blueberry! now say youre sorry! A very sour blueberry. in ENCHANTED patrick dempsey didnt put princess Giselle into an institution when he picked her up off the streets. poor baby was wandering around new york looking for her prince and couldnt find him!! patrick dempsey thought the prince was her imaginary friend! actually he wanted to put her into one, but he fell in love with her too quickly. so do you honestly think smithy would send me to one? Patrick Dempsey made a big mistake. He should have put her away immediately. I think Smithy would also put you away if you mentioned your sweet blueberry. But indecorous women are merely women wanting to be loved. that narrows it down to about 99% of the women in thie planet, silly goose. heehee! That's my point. Indecorous women are still women. i could find more, im surely! I hope you do! I could only see the one photo and you are right, she's really sweet and innocent looking in that pic. Thank you, Super Sweet T!

you heard him say it april. he admitted he was a sod-buster! he's a womanizing connoisseur!!! I did not say I was a womanizing connoisseur! when you take a shower, look to use some soap. it might help the place smell a little fresher. heehee Now that really made me laugh! are you serious? you will actually watch pride and prejudice if they win tonight?!! im so excited all the sudden!! Yes, I will. my excitement just went away......what do you mean no more greer films. you HAVE to watch pride and prejudice frankie. its a moral imperative.. AND an american instituition. heehee! I'm gonna ban Greer films if my squad loses tonight. And I'm gonna send you to that american institution. yeah thats me the jinx. why am i always the jinx? oh thats right, im sour....that one deserves a good giggle! You're either a sour jinx or a sweet good luck charm. Run to the clock tower. You'll be safe there. safe there? ha! and as soon as i reach the clock tower and start climbing the ladder to get to the high safe place, the ladder will split in half and ill fall to my death! april, frankie wants to kill me!! No, no, no. I merely want to save you from the bad influences that surround you. Are you still playing with your imaginary friend? Is she a doll? yes she is a doll! at least april wouldnt want to kill me! I hope you're imaginary friend doesn't kill you. That would be horrible. REDRUM. LIRPA. if you were paying attention to The Sound of Music when your grandpa was watching it that day at the end, eleanor parker says that to christopher plummer in this really amazing way. i always try to say it like she did. heehee! but seeing as you dont fancy that movie you probably werent paying attention were you? I've never seen the film. The Sound of Music just doesn't fit this thread, either. Now Top Secret! certainly does. That's what film I thought you were referencing.

Who said Celine was sour? She's trashy, though. you just did!....or was it....(GASPS) you were describing me?!!!!! Don't worry, you are nowhere near as sour as your duet partner. They don't make 'em any more sour than that. Miss Finishing School Girl cannot be the same girl you call "sweet and innocent." No way, no how. I'm calling the mental institution right now. You sit tight. that one takes the cake! ill secretly sneek out while you call the mental institution. heehee! Do you think a friendly guy will see you wandering the streets and take you in and care for you? I'm guessing not. The second you mention your imaginary friend, they'll send you to the institution, where you belong. i actually didnt mind her as Amy Jolly, but she isnt my favorite character. she is an "indecorous" woman! But indecorous women are merely women wanting to be loved. Any photo of Gloria Grahame is welcome by me, but the one you posted is one of the sweetest I have seen of her. well ill post another one, i found another "sweet and innocent one" if you would like it. I'd like it! I'd like it!

You are on fire! Such entertainment! Do you sing in the shower? Sometimes, sort of. My eyes are taking a bath right now!

oh now im sour celine. i hate to burst your bubble frankie, but celine isnt sour. Who said Celine was sour? She's trashy, though. you may know her by miss finishing school. personally i wouldnt call her that, but you may recognize it as we go. heehee! Miss Finishing School Girl cannot be the same girl you call "sweet and innocent." No way, no how. I'm calling the mental institution right now. You sit tight. i meant to say that i could picture you with marlene dietrich over there, but forgot to state her name. heehee! Ohhh, Marlene. Amy Jolly is mighty fine. I can picture me with her. i thought you might like that gloria grahame pic. heehee! your welcome frankie meanie/sweetie! Any photo of Gloria Grahame is welcome by me, but the one you posted is one of the sweetest I have seen of her.

Gary Cooper - from charges of being 'stiff' Too easy.

Somebody is very funny today! Okay, okay. You are right. I'm a dirty sod-buster. I'll look to take a shower. And I'm not speakin' of a lead shower, Missy.

Hiya, Super Sweet Jinx -- I'm just looking for a scapegoat. If they win tonight, you'll be my pride and joy. oh pride and joy? how sweet! I'll lavish much love your way if your posting today ends up helping me out. You know what, if they win tonight, I'll watch Pride and Prejudice. That's how delirious I'll be. But if they lose.... oh no. i dont like that tone of writing. april (gulp) help me. I'll lavish much pain your way if your posting today ends up being a jinx. No more Greer films for me. i feel like loretta young in The Stranger, and you would be orson welles......im running! Run to the clock tower. You'll be safe there. Yes, you chat a lot. Me, on the other, I'm the weak, silent type. well that sinks the duck! Do silly gooses sink? we are throwing a parade for april! she is to be congratulated! as well as the gary thread! Are you still playing with your imaginary friend? Is she a doll? auf Wiedersehen heehee! Yay!

More like, connobores.