FrankGrimes
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"Everything happens, sooner or later."
"Yeah, that's what they say. Everything happens to him who waits."
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**I've wondered whether I should bring this up or not, but I really feel it's a valid point to make.*
*You were discussing how Lean is purely on the side of romance and love and intimacy, rather than who might be hurt by Renato's actions...well, it seems to me that Lean himself most likely lived his own life outside the boundaries of law and church, probably not particularly of his own choosing.... but by virtue of his own feelings and those of others in the world. I don't want to get into anything about whether he was right or wrong in his lifestyle. I'm just saying that this would make him extremely aware of the person who is drowning, gasping for love, unfulfilled in a loveless world that has clamped down around him because it is not "right". He would be singularly well equipped to deal with the hypocrisy of a marriage that was not all it should be behind closed doors. A person like this would be forced to live without love, stunted and dwarfed by what society might expect. Any crumb of love would have to be found in secret.*
*I think this is why Lean is also so sensitive to Jane's feelings. To have clamped oneself down for so long in an effort to hide one's own feelings, it might be hard to open up to someone.*
I really don't know a thing about David Lean's personal life, so I just couldn't say. There's definitely something to his romantisicm and he does seem to feature affairs, the wrongful kind of love and passion. The odds are he was telling his own story, as you say.
*I think sometimes movies at that time were not condoning the action, they were actually merely giving some lonely people an outlet through imagination to explore love in a way that would not hurt anyone, namely through the movies. Maybe making the movie was Lean's outlet as well.*
Every person has their own take with a situation. Those involved in the affair have theirs and those who are affected by the affair have theirs. We all know of the "black and white" with affairs. The "grey" I speak of depends on the circumstances. With *Summertime*, we are told Renato is basically divorced and we are being told Jane has never experienced love and sex.
I'd say the overall theme of the film is about Jane letting go for the first time in her life, taking a big risk to experience something she may never get to experience, even if it's for a moment. It really is difficult to tell if someone like Jane will ever find true love or ever experience the feelings she had in Venice, ever again. How do any of us really know? We all take gambles. Well, most of us do. Some of us sit on the sidelines, safe but feeling sorry. Thankfully, the majority of the world isn't shy when it comes to chasing love.
*In Summertime, Jane has her camera. It's a wonderful choice as it is both an outlet for and a hindrance to finding that passion and color. The camera is at once freeing and alienating. But I think we talked about this in classic film college, when we discussed voyeurism in film. For Jane, the camera helps her see, but also keeps her distant from what she would like to be a part of. It's almost a crutch, to show she has something to do, to keep her at arms length from people, and to remove her sense of loneliness.*
That is absolutely, positively brilliant! You're amazing to see this. You are right on with Jane and her camera. Those who are taking the pictures are not living within the picture. They are living through others. And that's definitely Jane. She's never in the picture, she's always taking the picture. She's not to live life, she's to chronicle it.
*It's very apt you mention "color" or the lack of it in life...since Summertime is such an incredibly vivid, beautifully colored movie. It's as if Jane's senses all came alive and tingling when she came to Venice, and most particularly when she saw that red goblet.*
And that's a great point, too. White (virginal) and red (passion) are used a lot with Jane.
As you can see, look at all the white in this frame:
Jane then turns to her camera for comfort:
The red spark:
And then the mixing of white and red:
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*you know some nice people.*
Of course! But I also know some with Wendice traits.
*actually Wendice is the one villain in movies that I find charming. there are so many others that are supposed to be this, and they exude charm and are entertaining, but Ray Milland here is my favorite. I just can't take my eyes off him and what he's going to do next. It probably helps that I can't stand Cummings' smug character.*
Milland is far more engaging than Cummings. Talk about night and day.*I have yet to see THe Pleasure Garden.*
I only just saw it in January. It's no great shakes. It's basically a tale of a bad man and woman and a good man and woman.
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*I like that he really doesn't let anyone on to what he really thinks.*
That's part of the game. See if anyone cracks. I like Francie's "cat and mouse" the very best.
*Definitely. It's much more of a challenge for Wendice. You feel with Cummings he's leading him on and he's clearly the superior to Swan but with the Inspector, his calm becomes gradually ruffled. Interestingly, it's the same tragectory as his wife follows. She too starts out poised and thinks she has things under control and ends really messed up. The fact that she really falls apart seems to show she's human, not a monster, whereas the fact that Wendice never really does reveal how shaken he might be illustrates how cold he is.*
And Wendice's offering drinks to everyone at the end is in keeping with what you speak. I know some people like Wendice. The ones who always think they'll get away with murder.
*Champagne and Rich and Strange do seem to be.*
So are *The Pleasure Garden*, *Easy Virtue*, *The Farmer's Wife*, and *The Manxman*.
*Does he stop for a spot of tea?*
With bullets!
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*So* *Dark Journey was so so for you.*
Yes. I was very drawn to Viv and Conrad. I loved their pairing and I thought each was superb. The story just didn't do much for me, especially the ending. And I continue to see a lot of "Gary Cooper" with Conrad.
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*No, I haven't watched it yet! I need to, but today I have a crashing migraine, and Vertigo is definitely NOT the movie I would like to watch today.*
So your husband can run to the bell tower to escape your nagging!
I'm the perfect cure for a headache, don't you think? *I haven't even watched Yellow Sky yet, or* *Buchanan Rides Alone, which I promised I would watch long ago. I always get behind, I really shouldn't promise to watch anything at all, especially on a time limit. I still have to ramble on* *Double Wedding and that was ages ago!*
Oh, don't worry about that. I still owe you words on *The Big Country*, *Strange Cargo*, and *Summertime*. And what you wrote for each fascinated me, so it's not like I wasn't motivated by your writings. It's just laziness on my part.
*I think Strangers on a Train and* *Saboteur are very much alike in their endings, and this is why they both rate high on my favorites list.*
Hmmmmmm... now that's interesting. I wouldn't have connected those two.
*Both end with the victim/murderer CLOSE to being exonerated, but not quite. Although technically, SOAT has that tacked on joke ending on the honeymoon train to make us feel better....can we agree that the joke is not the real ending? It always makes me wonder whether the police would really believe Farley Granger with such slim evidence as the lighter in Bruno's hand or Robert Cummings standing there with half a sleeve, Norman Lloyd crash landed on the sidewalk.*
Very good! Now I see the connections. And you're right, they really are exonerated on flimsy evidence.
*Saboteur ends VERY precariously, in more ways than one - Cummings NEEDS Lloyd to testify for him and spill what he knows to the police about Otto Kruger and the society lady. Priscilla now knows he's innocent, but would I believe her if I were the cops? I'm not sure, since she is now in love with Cummings. I think it's a really tenuous ending and I like it for just that reason. I definitely think it's left that way on purpose.*
What you say really does add to the tension. Who would the cops really believe? The society-types with names and money or the chump on the run?
*I suppose Hitch may just have been fed up with the movie and ended it abruptly, not getting the cast he wanted. I think it was a studio movie that fulfilled a contract as well.
*I don't think Hitch always goes for the logical. He's seemingly more about the suspense and style.
*Foreign Correspondent and* *Shadow of a Doubt remind me of* *The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.*
I loved what you wrote about those connections. I would have never thought of their endings being similar. It's not always that you're protecting the wrongdoer so much as protecting those who think highly of them.
*My list:*
*1. Vertigo*
*2. Psycho*
I wouldn't have guessed those would top your list!
*3. The Thirty Nine Steps ("I:m glad it's off my mind." fade out with dancing girls in the background)*
But the handcuffs! The handcuffs! That's one of my favorite Hitch images.
*5. Frenzy*
Yay! It's great to see someone else appreciate the ending. It's the perfect way to "tie" up that black-humored film.
*6.Strangers on a Train - if you end with the lighter*
I always think of the ending as the merry-go-round.
*7.Foreign Correspondent - "Hang on to your lights, America, they're the only lights left on in the world"*
It's a great line for that time.
*8. Shadow of a Doubt - "Sometimes the world goes a little bit mad, like your Uncle Charlie."*
Awesome line! Again, it fits with the time.
*10. Rich and Strange - relieved to be home, then sliding right back into arguing.*
Not to mention the fancy cruise home with the fine cuisine!
*11. Rear Window (Another black ending
*You're naughty! You side with "Jeff."
*12.Stage Fright - I can't specifically remember the ending, but this one has risen and risen in my estimation. A truly romantic couple get together after a big turnaround for Richard Todd. I think Michael WIlding is one of Hitch's few policemen who is actually more than bland. I think it must end on Alistair Sim.... at least if I were doing it, that's how I would end it! I couldn't look it up, it's not on youtube.*
This is a Hitch film I haven't seen in a good six years. I always think of the curtain falling.
*13. Lifeboat - German: "Aren't you going to kill me?"*
*Hodiak: "What are you gonna do with people like that?"*
It's a very thoughtful film.
*14. The Lady Vanishes Miss Froy playing the piano*
Talk about a film that goes in two different directions.
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*Williams Inspector is one of my favorite screen detectives. He conveys so much with just the raise of an eyebrow or vocal inflection.*
He's wonderful in *Dial M for Murder*. His manner is so very pleasant. He's quite the contrast to every other performer in the film.
*A great command of the language also made him one of the most precise actors, so clear. No wonder Hitch loved him, he could seem so sincere and polite when he was sending you up the river, yet he wasn't too florid about it.*
Very "British." It's intellectual "cat and mouse."
*Except for Blackmail I have to watch all these again! I thought I was familiar enough with them but I don't remember any of those endings, at least not as you describe them. I get so stuck in his Hollywood period.*
There's a great charm to Hitch's British works, but you have to be up for them because the transfers aren't the best. Many of his silents are basically "woman's pictures."
*Hmmm...it's hard for me to see English actors as gangsters.*
It's the ending to the film and how Peter Lorre goes out that's very "gangster."
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*Yes, I remember that. I was trying to re-watch that one the other night but my DVD won't play on the DVR.*
That's a shame. I really enjoy *The Manxman*.
*I like the whole movie, in fact it's the one Hitch that has risen the most with me recently. I find it one of the most pleasant and engaging watches.*
I think it's one of Hitch's most intellectual films. I love the battle of wits. It's a rare Hitch film where a character actor (John Williams) is the hero.
*I don't remember the endings to Blackmail, Young and Innocent, Murder!, or Number Seventeen. Why do you rank them so high?*
*Blackmail* is the London chase that you spoke of. It's basically the first look at the "famous monument" ending that Hitch would later use in Hollywood. *Young and Innocent* has the drummer ending. I love the long shot and reveal. It's arguably the most stylish of Hitch's British endings. *Murder!* finishes at the circus with a high-wire act. It's definitely a "curtain closer." *Number Seventeen* is similar to *Rich and Strange* and *Foreign Correspondent* with its "crash" ending. I think it shows how ambitious Hitch was at a young age. He needed the Hollywood resources to pull off his ambition.
*Why do you like the 1934 version better than the 1956 version of TMWKTM?*
It's basically Hitch's "gangster" film with Peter Lorre playing James Cagney. I like the "shootout" ending. The 1956 version has a much more emotional and stylish ending, though. The usage of "Que Sera, Sera" is powerful.
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*You might be right.*
Impossible!
*Good comparisons. I was thinking two "party girls" end up fairly bedraggled by the last reel.*
Yeah, you're in both films, Miss Daniels.
*The Manxman* also features an ending similar to *The Birds* and *Notorious*.*Goodness, and I've forgotten it. I know I liked that one pretty well from his early work.*
I know my jaw dropped when I saw it.
*Dial M For Murder has a more interesting beginning than ending.*
This is true, but I still like the ending a lot.
My list:
1. Vertigo
2. Psycho
3. Frenzy
4. Foreign Correspondent
5. Strangers on a Train
6. Notorious
7. Saboteur
8. Blackmail
9. Dial M for Murder
10. Young and Innocent
11. Murder!
12. The Man Who Knew Too Much (1934)
13. Rear Window
14. Number Seventeen
15. Spellbound
16. North by Northwest
17. The Birds
18. The Man Who Knew Too Much (1956)
19. Marnie
20. The Manxman
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*Thanks! Watching the last part of* *Strangers on a Train the other day started me off on this. It is not my favorite Hitch, but the climactic end always makes my jaw drop. It's a marvel of technique and real nail biting drama.*
The film features many stylish moments. I think it's one of Hitch's most artistic, visually.
*re: The Birds and* *Notorious - do you mean the similarity of the final emotional state of the heroine and how the hero leads her off to safety?*
Each film features a slow walk away from danger while the danger surrounds those in peril. Each is very "quiet." That's why the scenes are tension-packed.
*I agree about NxNW and* *Saboteur. Isn't* *Murder! the other one that involves famous a chase across monuments (in London) or am I thinking of another film?*
Close. It's *Blackmail*. *Murder!* features arguably the most shocking of all Hitch endings.
*There was no doubt that had to be number one. It just has layer upon layer of meaning. I wonder if Jackie has re-watched it yet.
*The poor lass!
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That's a very cool list! And those really are sensational Hitchcock endings. What's interesting is how some of them are similar, such as *The Birds* and *Notorious*. *North by Northwest* and *Saboteur* are also similar.
I like that you have *Vertigo* at the top. That's a highly emotional ending. It's also very ironic.
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*It had to happen eventually. :)I've only seen a scene or two from it.*
I don't know how it has eluded you.
*Such as? i don't remember much. do you mean when their truck broke down or back at the house?*
The fate of Slob (Jake Oakie), Nick's (Richard Conte) partner, and how their relationship is shown is wonderful. I also like the other two guys who were competing with them and how they react at the end. And the backdrop of the father plays a part, too.
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*The monsters are the stars.*
Great point! They are!
*Oh, yes, I'm not crazy about KoAD, either. I have yet to see* *A Woman's Secret.*
I've actually seen a film you haven't?! Wow! And it's Gloria and Maureen!
*So I was right that you liked Thieves Highway.*
Uh-huh. I was very surprised to see the touching moments in this kind of film.
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*I know, I mean the supporting players. It's more of an ensemble piece. Which is pretty unique with sci-fi.*
I always think sci-fi is better without stars, anyways.
*the headlines and breadlines were horror enough. though you could say the 30s were the heydey of horror, at Universal.*
It definitely was. It's a defining decade.
*Almost exclusively.*
Then I should be more than okay with Errol.
*Maybe he was an all or nothing kind of guy. What's another by him you did not like?*
*Knock on Any Door* with Bogie is my least favorite Ray flick. I also don't like *A Woman's Secret*, which stars Gloria and Maureen, two of my very favorites.
*Have you seen Part Girl? I can't remember. It's pretty good.*
No, not yet. That's one of the two Ray films I'd like to see most.
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*Really? It reminds me of the guys in* *Only Angels Have Wings.*
Minus Cary and Jean!
*That could be. Maybe they didn't think the audience who goes to those movies takes them seriously?*
That's probably the case. "Who wants to watch horror during these times?"
*Pleasing is a good word for him. It's a light hearted movie. I found Linda Darnell dull. Gorgeous but dull.*
Linda was only interesting when she got upset at the uncaring Don Diego.
*You may not like a lot of his films, but I would be surprised if you didn't enjoy at least some of his characters.*
Doesn't he play some rascals? I'd like that.
*I hadn't heard about the Hughes angle, that is really surprising! I knew it was an "assignment" film, though, you can tell.*
I'm just surprised Ray doesn't put anything of himself in some of his films and then he places a lot of himself in others.
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And thereabouts I find my Juliet, my Sauerkraut Juliet.
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My love is in Oregon!
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*Well of course they can be elusive. They are rare as they can be sometimes. But still worth working for, to be sure.*
Ideals are always worth working for, but there are no givens.
*(and ps.. no one's realtionship outside my own. and maybe (perhaps.. possibly) my daughter's someday is ever for me to "approve" or disapporve. I certainly am not the one in charge of THAT.*
I'm speaking of your opinion. We all say "yea" or "nay" with our opinions.
*Again.. I am not trying to be judgmental even if I sound that way. I just think that a lot of times the things we THINK are subjective are really pretty "black and white" but we choose to let our situation dictate what we choose (even if our standards tell us something else (and in a minute you can hit me over the head with that phrase.. because I am going to have to backpeddle over somthing I said last post.. oh the agony.. ha)*
Yes, many people are very selective with what they approve of and disapprove of based on personal situations and experiences. "It's bad to drink, but not smoke since I'm a smoker but not a drinker." But I will say there are many things people believe are black and white whereas to others it's not. I've learned there are many circumstances that can affect situations. That's the grey I speak of.
*So he cared enough about his faith to the point it would not allow him to divorce.. but he did not care about the whole "thou shalt not commit adultery" thing?? I don't buy it. It is a double standard (even it if is a "culture" thing. (gulp.. again.. you are giong to hit me over the head any minute now.. for what I said earlier)*
Well, it does go on. They're not allowed to get divorced, but they live a life of divorce.
*I know that it may seem that she is happy.. (to be with the man she chose) and she may even actually BE happy (to a degree) but I wonder how happy she is with the damage it caused to her relationship with you and your brother. And of course I don't know her.. and we are talking about something that is very personal so i do not want to sound like I know at all what I am saying.. But I guess what I mean is. she has to live with all that she has done to you.. even if she thinks she made a good choice for herself (with regard to love and romance) But somewhere inside her I wonder if she sees it was not so "good" in all the other respects.*
Oh, I know there is always regret with decisions. But if you'd ask if she thinks it was the right thing to do, she would tell you, "yes." So there are people who take part in affairs who do see it as a good thing. It's always for self, though.
*Someone I love very dearly was the victim of a HORRIBLE adulteress may years ago.. and he suffered GREAT and lasting devastation to himself and his family as a result of her selfishness. And what is more.. SHE only became even MORE ugly and bitter a human being than she was before she started cheating on him. Which made things even worse because meanwhile, he and his sons suffered terribly because of her choices.*
*So I do know (even if only from a more distant perspetive) the lasting damage such a choice can cause. But its funny how movies like this one seem to make an extra marital affair seem so "loving and kind.. and happy."It really seems to be an ugly thing in pretty much any example I have ever seen or heard of personally.*
It's all about whose side of the story we are being shown. If we saw Renato's wife crying over his cheating, it would change the story. *Brief Encounter* is a film that does show the other side, at least one part of it. In *Summertime*, it's all about Jane and her story.
*And now you may BONK me over the head with the biggest brick you can find. Ha. Because (UGH) I did not want to GO there and open up that "moral" can of worms.. But I really DO feel the way you'd expect me to (personally). I truly do believe it IS better to wait until marriage.. from the bottom of my heart I believe this.*
*And as a parent it is my FERVENT hope and wish (and prayer) that my daughter will be able to give herself (and her future husband) that gift of waiting.. because it IS the only gift you can give someone ONCE and only once.. (the only gift other than your own life, I suppose.) And what a shame to "fling" it away in the moment.. even if it is because you think you many NEVER get another chance to share it.*
It's the safest approach to take. Life gets real serious when you get pregnant, so you better make sure it's with someone you love and who loves you and is committed to you. But the peer pressure is extremely high today.
*But having said ALL that. oh what a "double standard" I seem to often allow for myself when it comes to various movies and stories characters (agggghh I hate admitting that) However.. I still am not one for 'gratuitious" sex and ongoing pre-marital relationship after relationship in a movie. I think our culture really does have a lower standard now than maybe ever before about what it takes to find "happiness" with the one you love. (and the divorce rate you mentioned earlier is the sad end result of such thinking)*
I'm not for any of that, either! It's mostly about lust and immediate gratification today. We are living in a very needy society, where we need to know someone loves us every second with a text.
*Sure we can.. I LOVE mint chocolate chip icecream.. but I am not married to it.
*So that's it! I need to fall in love with ice cream!
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*Ha.. not yet. I am saving them for a time when you are more deserving. And I know.. ha.. when have you ever been more deserving?? ( HA.. and you can interpret the meaning of THAT phrase any way you wish, my DEAR friend.
*I always deserve them!
*I know it can be bad.. but it may only be the "worst" because they have not experienced anything worse-er. (ok.. I know that is not gramatically correct... ha, but I am only saying that it SEEMS like the worst thing.. because they have nothing else to compare it to)*
I know physical anguish can be tough, but loneliness has a way of doing in a person more than you think.
*Well.. I admit you may be right in her mindset.. because it has been a long time since I watched it and I may not recall that aspect of her character. And if that is all she really was looking for (a moment of love, etc) then I guess she succeeded. But I was remembering her differently. Old age (and my foggy brain can play tricks on me that way sometimes)*
There was a lot of longing with Jane. Everywhere she looked, it seemed like everyone was sharing their time with a love. That's how it can feel. I don't think Jane was specifically looking for a fling, I think she was longing for love. Would she rather meet a true love that lasts through all time? I'm sure of it. But what she was feeling with Renato was something she was longing for.
*proper and right*
*You make it sound so "antiseptic", ha. I don't know if proper and right is the way I am looking at it so much as "lasting", "real," and "good" (and I don't necessarily mean good in a moral sense so much as "good for you" (but there is a level of moral thinking to the word as well, I confess)*
Those words can be elusive even with those who get married in ways you'd approve.
*I think it goes back to the what you said earlier.. if she was looking for a lasting "love" she may have missed the mark.. but you may be right if what she really wished to experience was a "fling". (and age may not be as big a factor as you think.. because I would argue too that most 20 yr olds on Spring Break wouldn't know love if it hit them between the eyes.. but a lot of them likely do enjoy having a fling)*
But I wouldn't feel for a 20-year-old having a fling. It's a completely different situation.
*I can only speak for myself. I am not judging (even if it sounds like I am) But my faith is a large part of who I am.. and so it does tend to lead me to decide things based on that perspective. And I would go even further in saying that even folks who do not share the same beliefs as I do may still have the same moral point of view.. but for different reasons.. as you mentioned a moment ago) because some things ARE very "black and white" (even for "grey folk") and we can choose those things easily.. but other things are harder for some people to decide than others. Adultery would be one of them.*
As a rule, I'm not for adultery. But in this situation, I felt as if Renato was basically divorced but he couldn't do so because of his faith and culture.
*Because really.. whether an issue is black and white for one person.. or some people.. or for all of us.. is not going to change the fact that ultimately we all have to choose what path we will follow and live with whatever consequence we end up with at the end of the road we take.*
I'm in complete agreement. As the film ends, Jane is exuberant and feeling something she has never felt before. Will she come to regret it in time? That may depend on how the rest of her life goes.
*And with regard to adultery.. whatever a person thinks about that subject.. I would argue that rarely (in fact, I do not know of a single instance, personally) has such an act ever brought anyone lasting personal happiness (in the long run) So if Jane DOES end up w/ regret (for having "loved and lost") somewhere down the road.. that would be my reason for saying that I don't feel as sorry for her as I wish I could (again referring back to my original statement.. you know.. before you called me a SCROOGE!! ) .
*That's usually a very personal deal. For those who cheat, they may be all right with it, but they usually don't care about who else gets hurt. My mom cheated on my dad with the guy she's still with, so I'm sure she would be okay with it. But it hurt my dad and her two sons.
*Hmmmmmmmm.... I think for purposes of this movie and these characters(and leaving all questions of moral issues aside) I would be ok.. yes. Especially IF you are correct in stating that this is what Jane was seeking anyway. So long as they both were on the same page (with it being just a "moment" and not a proposal of marriage)*
Wow! I would have never guessed you'd say that. And I would have understood your saying she needed to wait until she was married. The thing is, she may never get married. So must she marry just to experience love?
*What a man and a woman (who are not married to someone else) decide to do out of love.. or passion.. or romance.. really is a personal choice that I do not want to debate here (ever) so please don't make me go there.. PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEASE. Because HOW many gazillion movies would THAT can of worms open up for discussion then.. UGH. (too much.. I can not take it)*
Oh boy, you're right about that. How many men and women are going all out in these classic films without being married?
*But the REAL question should be: would I get mad when she leaves because I WANT them to get together and STAY that way??? And the answer: of COURSE I would.. mushy romance loving person that I am.
*Can't we love without marriage?
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Hiya, Jacqueline -- *I guess you probably know, Frank, that I agree with you almost completely about Summertime. I can't add anything to what you have said already except that what you wrote so far moved me very much.*
Really?! Doesn't that frighten you?!
*I love what you said about Mauro the street urchin! Yes! Their relationship is probably even more important than Jane and Renato's, as a symbol of how far Jane opens up. I simply love the scene when he gives her the pen.*
You're right, Mauro is as important to Jane as Renato, maybe even more so. It's the entire trust you speak of. That little boy plays a pivotal role with Jane and her finding some emotional freedom.
*I think of you and your sports metaphors at the end, when he fumbles the flower. I ache for him to make it every time I see the movie.
**I don't think of Jane's experiences as ultra romantic, as opposed to real, as someone mentioned. I think they are a wonderful fusion of both the romantic and the real, which is even better than totally romantic (which could probably only take place in someone's head or on film). The gardenia is never fully given... I love that it's story, like love and like life, keeps going awry. It's a series of broken exchanges. It doesn't matter, it's deeply meaningful anyway, since their relationship is a series of broken off exchanges too. In fact, maybe first love is like that - it almost happened or it was almost perfect - and we fill in the gaps ourselves, mentally or emotionally.*
Absolutely. The gardenia comes to represent Jane and her love-life. I've been there. You're so close to finding it but it's always out of reach for whatever the reason, be they real or created through your own fears
In the end, I think it's the imperfection of love that is perfect. That someone does something for you out of love, no matter the means, says a lot. There is a great deal of romance in the mundane, but we have to place romantic value there. Many struggle with this. They expect the passionate romance you speak of, the ones we imagine or gain through entertainment. I think it's very important to experience those moments, but to expect them on a regular basis is another thing.
*In this case, it really is the thought that counts. Not getting the flower became more important than getting it. So was it love? I think it was. Renato thought of her, and in such a way that it almost doesn't matter whether it was love or not, or whether she got the flower in the end.*
I agree with that. The gesture is what's most important.
*For Jane, his act of rushing to the train made the last flush of summer before fall comes something she could always remember. She bloomed under his gaze! for the first time in her life, and he appreciated her, and finally, he showed how much she meant to him. It's the beau geste that counted. And you know what? That kind of bloom never disappears entirely.*
That's how I feel about Jane and her romantic fling. If she were a younger woman, it wouldn't be as significant. But for a woman in her situation, it could mean the world and live with her forever. It can also change her for the better.
*It's a conundrum - they say that a woman is most attractive when she is loved, I think because her confidence is high and she glows with it.*
I completely agree with that. It works the same with guys, too. We feel like we can conquer the world when in love.
*I think there is a huge difference in Jane from the beginning to the end of the movie, she's lost that gawky quality, the solitariness that she couldn't shake off.... look at how she responds to Mauro at the end - he's a dear friend in spite of his wily ways, not someone to be suspicious of. Warmth and emotion, which she hid, exudes from her.*
Very nicely said. And that's how I precisely feel about Jane and her romantic fling. She truly is beaming by film's end. And she's doing so while leaving a world where she has found love. She's a schoolgirl who has experienced her first love. This feels especially wonderful after watching seemingly everyone else in the world do so before her.
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*Hello dear Grey Dude...*
Oh, no! The scissors!
*Well back up the apple cart here, sir. Because I never said it would be "alright". I just said there are worse things. It is NOT a perfect world.. and a sad and lonely heart is never "alirght" for anyone to just "live with" But I am saying it is not the worst thing a person could deal with. There are other things harder to handle. (and we each have to choose for ourselves if we can live with those choices.. and whatever consequence they bring)*
I'm not so sure. Loneliness can be the worst thing to deal with for some.
*Everyone has their take on that.. but can we ALL be right? For you.. we can . But for me.. I have a stronger (maybe harder is a better word) idea (in terms of definition) of what true love should be. Is your definition right or wrong. Is mine. I won't debate that here among friends. But I will ask instead, IS what Jane felt love?? Most likely a form of it. I think maybe so. But is what Renato felt for HER love? Now that one is harder for me to answer (especially since I have not seen the moive in EVER so long) But shooting only from the hip here.. I would say that certainly it was affection. And it was likely a very sincere form of passion. But how can a man who KNOWS that he is not free to engage in a romantic relationship truly and deeply love anyone but himself if he actively pursues said relationship with a lonely (and I may argue somewhat desperate) inexperienced woman. (shades of Now Voyager as well.. because I could ask the same question there as well)*
*If he TRULY loved that person.. and TRULY cared for her.. he would not entangle her in an extra-marital affair (that could lead nowhere) and force them both into a situation where they are only going to get a PORTION of what they really want (and deserve) from a relationship.*
*So if it IS love. .it is a very one-sided thing.. all gardenias aside.*
*I submit that what they share is not actually "love" but instead it is (again I go down my lonely road.. alone.. by myself) passion.*
*And love and passion are two completely different things.. and yet.. very often considered one and the same by many (if not most) people.*
But this isn't about true love with Jane. This is about experiencing a moment of love and love-making, something a woman who is 40 or around 40 is doing for the first time in her life. This is her moment. If she passes this one up, she may never get another chance at it. And as you get older, the moments change. Experiencing love at 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, etc. can be very different.
Is this what she's always wanted? No. I think she's similar to you in wanting love to be proper and right. I'm the same way. But this can also lead to an empty love-life if things don't ever match up right, which is where Jane (and myself) currently is at.
People get married and divorced who did things the proper and right way. Those people will look back on their love life with both good thoughts and bad thoughts. Lots of regret, possibly. Jane will look back at her moment of love in the same way. But at least she has finally experienced a form of love. That's saying a lot for a woman her age. She's not 20-years-old on spring break.
*So going back to my original statement (way back when first I opened my sorry excuse for a "blabber".. I guess my real issue with why I don't have as much sympathey for Jane as I would like (because I DO have sympathy for her. .but not in the way I wish I could) is that she traded her pursuit of love.. for passion. And while it may be enough for some people to do that (possible seen as being better than nothing by some folks) I just don't see it making her happy later on down the road. (and I freely confess that is only my opinion.. I do understand others will not agree)*
She's already later on down the road, that's the issue.
*Would it suprise you to hear that I do understand that.. and that I can tell you that it IS hard to walk away. But as much as I did not want to get into the "moral" issues here.. I can also tell you that if I were Jane.. no matter how hard it was.. when I found out he was married.. I would have had no trouble in the world walking away. And you are right.. that is because I am black and white on some subjects. (many, as you well know) And for me... that is an "uncrossable" line. I know others do not see it that way. I know there are "escape clauses" offered in a lot of films of this nature. .the man is trapped in a loveless marriage.. the wife will take his kids and he'll never see them again.. the wife is an insane homicidal maniac living in a tower (ha.. whoops.. wrong "Jane" movie) But married IS married.. and no matter how much you love someone (yes.. I know I even used the "L" word didn't I??) I say again.. "married" is an uncrossable line for me. (and I don't want this to turn into WWIII "Moral Combat" ha.. so I won't go any further with those statements.. but I am just saying.. that is how I roll.*
And guess who is with you on all of that? Me. The moment I hear "married," I'm out. But this isn't about me. Because if the world acted and behaved like me, we would be extinct. I'm not the person to follow when it comes to love. For Jane to do what she does is remarkable, really.
*And you know what. it is to your credit that you are willing to discuss it all up one side and down the other. So many people get very upset and "foot-stomping" mad when someone questions the popular opinion. I appreciate that you understand that your opinions are yours.. and my opinions are mine. And I hope (again) that you, my friend, DO know that anything I say here is NEVER meant to be some sort of judgement on anyone else (for any reason) I simply have a different way of looking at the world than others. (I freely admit it) and I am grateful to you for being willing to discuss it all as friends.*
We're very much the same with our moral compasses. It's just I'm not religious, it's my own choosing. And since I'm not following a faith, I don't feel as if I need to hold others to my own choosings. And I'd say I'm a very judgmental person.
So if Renato were not married, would you be okay with Jane's fling?
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*Hey Frank-a-zoid!*
Hi, Silly Goose!
*it's interesting you say that; why do you think jane needs a man with that kind of personality?*
Because she's lacking in confidence when it comes to love. She's a mess. Romance comes easy with Renato. He can help relax Jane. I feel it's highly important for a man/woman to relax the other, make them feel at ease, take their worries away. Renato does this for Jane. That's valuable.
*You are ultimately right. It takes more heart to leave the romance you desperately want, because you know it is the right thing to do. I guess that leaves the question that Jane had to face. Is it more important to want to feel comfortable and safe or to have the hyped up romance that every girl dreams of, only to be left empty? She chose the right path.*
She's finally experienced love. That was something she longed for. It was brief, but also memorable. I also think her showing the courage to do what she did helps her feel better about herself. For some, "yes" comes easily. Many times, too easy. For others, like Jane, it does not. And as you age, you get set in your ways and thinking and it becomes extremely difficult to say "yes." For her to let go of herself is rather remarkable.
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*I liked them!*
That kind of surprises me, because I found them to be rather bland. But I feel that fits this kind of film.
*Yes, now I recall. Maybe they thought no one could possibly take the film seriously anyway.*
It seems like the early-30s loved to feature comedy relief, especially horror films. It's almost like the studios didn't trust such films like they did comedy.
*I didn't remember he was stupid. I just enjoyed the show. Power does play it with zest, it's an engaging part for him. He makes me laugh with his "vapors".*
I think the only film where I haven't liked Ty is *The Razor's Edge*, and that was really his character, not him. He's very pleasing.
*He's pretty intimidating with that "air". It's part of what makes him such an ideal Holmes. But you have to see him in The Dawn Patrol. It may be his most interesting character.*
I hope to get to Flynn by the end of the year. I'm now ready for him. I've slowly knocked down all these walls that surrounded me a few years ago. Flynn is one that's still standing.
*The script definitely lacked subtlety.*
One thing that caught my attention about the film is what someone at IMDb mentioned. They said Nicholas Ray was pushed into doing this film. It was a pet project for Howard Hughes, who was infatuated with Joan Fontaine. So Ray slyly ended up making the story about Howard and Joan.
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I think the biggest thing you have to keep in mind is everyone is wired differently. What you can handle or live with or without, the next may not. I don't believe someone can just say, "be alone because that's what I would do. Do you think I was okay with being alone? But I did it." It just doesn't work that way.
My cousin just divorced her husband and he is going through a very emotional time because of it. My dad went through a similar thing and tells this man, "you just need to move on." It ain't that easy for everyone. Just because my dad could do that, does not mean this guy can do it that quickly.
So maybe you could go your entire life not ever experiencing love and passion and being all right with that. But I can tell you there are others who cannot.
It seems like the main question is, is it better to have loved and lost or to have never loved at all? *Summertime* seems to take the side of love and loss.
I can tell you as someone who has never loved, it would be awfully tough to pass up those feelings if they presented themselves as they do in *Summertime*. But knowing me, I'd talk myself out of it because of all you say. "It's not right for me." So I'm more like you and what you have wrote. I think we're alike with this stuff, just for different reasons. As for Jane, for the first time, she said, "yes." That's a huge step.
I guess what we're also talking about is our old thing, "grey vs. black and white." I'm coming at this from a very grey point of view. For me, every person and situation is different. Your angle is black and white. Humans are complicated creatures. Love is complicated. Many think they have found it, only to find out they haven't. Some can wait, find it, and then lose it. It's not an exact science, although some of us out here (me) try to make it such.
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*Scotty was the tall, skinny one, right? I think he's in a couple of Hawks movies.*
Yes. He's the nosey, wise-cracking reporter. He really gives the crew some personality, because they sorely lacked it.
*I actually don't remember much about Charlie Ruggles' character. I wonder if Molo has seen this one. You are right it's weird. But it enteretained.*
He's the MC at the fund-raiser and he passes out in the cage because of the snake. He's the one who basically stirs the entire pot in the film. And Molo hasn't seen it.
*And I don't remember Bromberg's performance much either. It's been a couple of years since I watched.*
He's the corrupt boss who has taken over Los Angeles, but he's a bumbling idiot.
*Basil is perhaps the greatest swashbuckler villain of them all. It helped that he was also an expert swordsman for real. He made the heroes look better and his relish gives them something to really fight against.*
I didn't know that about Basil. I love his superiority. His "air" is phenomenal.
*I agree with all that. Plus it seemed incredible no one saw through her, or if they did they went along with it. Good grief, she had at one point three, four men at her beck and call? And she looked too old to play that kind of character. I actually think Joan Leslie could have done it better.*
Joan was seemingly forever cast as the shy child. Her "innocence" did fit the character, so I can see Joan playing such a conniving girl. But what you say about all the men was part of the mess that bothered me. It was too much.
Milland is far more engaging than Cummings. Talk about night and day.
LISTS
in Your Favorites
Posted
*excepting yourself.*
Why, darling, don't you think it's best you stay in tonight?
*he's one of the few actors who i like best as a villain.*
There's a good list for you. Who's in your top ten?
*that sounds like most movies ever made.*
Well, it was 1925, after all.