FrankGrimes
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Posts posted by FrankGrimes
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Good evening, Lively Gal -- *Ha...you and your lists.*
*Gee...you don't want ME to be your compass. I'm wacky... I'm "lively." I'm liable to steer you off the edge of the world. And put away your "Unitiated" card, Grimesy me boy.*
I think you're a very good compass. You have your strongsuits and weak spots, of course. But I've come to know you fairly well and I'd definitely follow your lead with Kate and Spence.
*You might not know the history and the trivia like the rest of us, but your analytical acumen is very strong. And it sure does get you into scrapes with the ladies.*
Thank you. And it sure does place me in hot water!
*KATHARINE HEPBURN - She has made 51 movies of which I have seen 26:*
*1. "Stage Door"*
*2. "Woman of the Year"*
*3. "Holiday"*
*4. "The Lion in Winter"*
*5. "Adam's Rib"*
*6. "State of the Union"*
*7. "Keeper of the Flame"*
*8. "Summertime"*
*9. "Suddenly Last Summer"*
*10. "Long Day's Journey Into Night"*
*11. "Christopher Strong"*
*12. "Undercurrent"*
*13. "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?"*
*My preference is a little mixed up...but the first five are written in stone.*
Now this is really interesting. You are one who prefers the Kate and Spence films with Kate. Wow!
*Undercurrent* is a Kate film I'm curious to see. Another is *Sylvia Scarlett*.
*SPENCER TRACY - He made 78 films of which I have seen 26.*
*The first three are my favorites of Tracy's films. The rest are roles I've enjoyed him in.*
*1. "Libeled Lady"*
*2. "Woman of the Year"*
*3. "A Guy Named Joe"*
*4. "Boom Town"*
*5. "Test Pilot"*
*6. "Cass Timberlane"*
*7. "Bad Day At Black Rock"*
*8. "Adam's Rib"*
*9. "Father of the Bride"*
*10. "Fury"*
*11. "Inherit the Wind"*
*12. "20,000 Years in Sing Sing"*
*13. "Boys Town"*
*14. "Keeper of the Flame"*
That's a really nice mix for Spence. It looks like you prefer him lighter. So do you list *Libeled Lady* at the top for Spence is that for others?
*GEORGE STEVENS - He directed 57 films of which I've seen 13. In order of preference:*
*1. "A Place in the Sun"*
*2. "Woman of the Year"*
*3. "Swing Time"*
*4. "Giant"*
*5. "Penny Serenade"*
*6. "The More The Merrier"*
*7. "Shane"*
*8. "Alice Adams"*
*9. "Vigil in the Night"*
*10. "I Remember Mama"*
*11. "Gunga Din"*
*12. "The Diary of Anne Frank"*
*13. "Vivacious Lady"*
That's another nice mix. You haven't seen *The Talk of the Town*?
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Good evening, Spunky -- *I'd be curious to see what you would think of Judgment at Nuremberg and* *Inherit the Wind, since you like courtroom drama.*
*Inherit the Wind* is one of my all-time favorite films, Silly Goose. And I actually don't like courtroom dramas all that much.
*That's the problem with tone I have trouble with. At first it's funny, and i love the sparks they strike off each other, but it continues until some very serious things happen between them.*
That's how I felt about *Woman of the Year*. I loved the comedy and then the romance in the first half of the film. It was superb. After that, the mix of comedy and drama didn't work for me.
*I usually like a mixture like that, drama in my comedy and comedy in my drama.*
That's the same with me. I usually laugh more at films that feature comedy but are dramas or otherwise.
*But with Stevens he seems to make two different movies that don't come together - the tones aren't the same which is very frustrating.*
That's how I have felt about a few of Stevens' films.
*Even Sturges can introduce drama into his comedies while retaining the same TONE. I think of Sullivan's Travels, or* *The Miracle of Morgan's Creek ... though I do understand that some people hate Sullivan's for that mix of comedy and drama.*
I'm not huge on *Sullivan's Travels*, but it's not because of its tone. I like how it plays.
*I like the idea of Woman of the Year, the story of modern people trying to fit their incredibly complicated lives together...but Stevens seems to think that it all boils down to whether she can cook a breakfast for her man! Ugh.*
Now, now, now! I think he's just showing the breakfast scene as shorthand for homemaker. And the film's ultimate point is evenhanded.*1. Shane*
*2. The More the Merrier*
*3. The Talk of the Town ( despite tone shifts)*
*4. Annie Oakley*
*5. Alice Adams*
*6. Quality Street*
*7. Penny Serenade*
*8. I Remember Mama*
*9. Swing Time*
*10. Giant*
*11. A Place in the Sun*
*12. Woman of the Year*
*13. Gunga Din*
*13. Vivacious Lady*
*14. Vigil in the Night*
Yay! I love it! This is a great way for me to see your tastes in a quick manner. I love that you made decisions on films. It's never easy. I definitely know that. What is remarkable to me is that you like *Shane* the very most. It tops the "female" films of Stevens, which are definitely your kind of films. What's interesting to me is that Stevens tends to be a very "female" director. Lots of feminine influence, issues, and dilemmas.
Why does *Gunga Din* rate lower? No spoiling, though!
*George Stevens most perfect films (no tone shifts)*
*1. Shane*
*2. A Place in the Sun*
*3. I Remember Mama*
*4. The More the Merrier*
*5. Annie Oakley*
*6. Alice Adams*
*7. Swing Time*
*8. Penny Serenade*
*9. Gunga Din - (reservations about this one. I am not crazy about the climax of the film, but I'm not sure that it's because of tone that I dislike it.)*
*10. Quality Street*
*11. Vigil in the Night*
Great list!
*And i might as well list my Kate and Spence favorite performances here too, while I'm at it. OY! Do you know how much I hate list making??!!
*I know you do! I know! I'm amazed by these lists!
*Kate ( a very subjective list):*
*The Philadelphia Story*
*Summertime*
*The Lion in Winter*
*Long Day's Journey into Night*
*The African Queen*
*Alice Adams*
*Holiday*
*Desk Set*
*Adam's Rib*
*The Little Minister*
*Woman of the Year*
*Guess Who's Coming to Dinner*
*Bringing Up Baby*
*Pat and Mike*
*Little Women*
*Quality Street*
*Stage Door*
*Spitfire*
*Suddenly Last Summer*
Wow. So you tend to like the older Kate a little more with the exception of *The Philadelphia Story*. You're not a fan of *Stage Door* ?
*Spence:*
*Bad Day at Black Rock*
*The Last Hurrah*
*Father of the Bride*
*Judgment at Nuremberg*
*The Actress*
*Test Pilot*
*Captain's Courageous*
*Boy's Town*
*A Guy Named Joe*
*Fury*
*20,000 Years in Sing SIng*
*Inherit the Wind*
*Guess Who's Coming to Dinner*
*The Old Man and the Sea*
*Pat and Mike*
*Adam's Rib*
*A Man's Castle*
*Riff Raff*
*Desk Set*
*Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde*
*Edward My Son*
*The Mountain*
Again, it seems like you prefer older Spence. And what's interesting is that the Tracy & Hepburn films do not rank that highly for each.
*Spence is very hard to rank because some of his best performances are the ones that look so easy, like in Father of the Bride or* *Judgment at Nuremberg. He's SO natural, it doesn't look like acting.*
So were you ranking Spence and Kate's performances or how you liked their films overall? For me, there's a huge difference. For example, I love *Libeled Lady*, but it's not because of Spence. With *Bringing Up Baby*, I love Kate but not Cary.
*And speaking of subjective, I think the Kate/Spence films are very subjective, that's why everyone has their differences as far as favorites. However, I think everyone here might say something different if they were asked which was their best film.*
*For me it's* *Adam's Rib.*
So are you saying best vs. favorite? That's a good question to ask everyone. I can't answer it, of course.
*It's not that I DON'T like A Place in the Sun and* *Giant - I do! A lot even. They are just further down the list than the others right now.*
I'm glad you clarified that. So you must really like Stevens. He's one of your very favorites, right?
*Again, there are movies by Stevens where I like certain parts of the movie a huge amount, then other parts of the same movie that don't always fit for me. Giant is one of those (like Talk of the Town) where the tone changes but it doesn't bother me. Maybe because it is epic in scale, it's got to go somewhere else after a while. And Elizabeth Taylor is just great at bridging both drama and comedy.*
I agree with all of that. *Giant* does change tones and I was okay with the tonal change. Bick (Rock Hudson) is where the tonal change is biggest.
*Oh, and I'm with Goddess on Beau Geste over* *Gunga Din. I'm guessing Gunga Din will be more your style too. I think the last third will surprise you, how much modern moviemakers have lifted from it.*
And that's a big reason why I have some positive expectations with it.
*Vic is a darling! I'm so glad you have enjoyed him, You know he's one of my favorite actors. And Doug Jr. ain't bad either. Have you seen much of his films? You might like a couple of the pre-codes. Gunga Din a romp with those three goofing around. Lots of fun. Kind of like the Marx Brothers meet* *The Lost Patrol.*
It sounds pretty darn good to me. The only Fairbanks I have seen is *Little Caesar*.
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I'm thoroughly impressed by your taking the time to list your favorites for each year of the 60s, Invisible Woman! Wow!
But your taste is another story! Are you some kind of sappy girl or something?!
You and your Bullwhip Griffin!
I never heard of quite a few of your favorites. Are you sure you're not just making movies up in your mind?
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*I will! I like him and Carole together.*
Terrific! Carole is playing it straight, but Powell is Powell. There's some real emotion with him, too.
*I have it on DVD so I should rewatch as well. I do remember Brian Donlevey was excellent. A real brute.*
Then I'll add it to the next batch of films I'm gonna watch.
*Of the three it has the best chance. You'll like Cary and Vic, I think. They're a couple of rascals.*
Cary is already a great favorite of mine and Vic continues to climb my favorites list. He's been a major revelation for me. He's so darn good in the 30s.
I've heard good things about *Gunga Din*. I don't have it on DVD, though.
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*A while ago, but I don't remember anything special about his character. I do have the DVD.*
You should give it another looksee.
*It's got a lot of silliness in it. It's one example where serious and silly are not mixed well. It's also one with the kid, and I don't like Nick and Nora with a kid. It's too domestic and tame for them.*
And if I would have said that, you would have told me I didn't like kids! You're awful!
I'm sure I'll find the kid to be an annoying addition.
*Ha! Just you wait! "Nature, Mr. Alnutt, is what we are put here to rise above."*
I'm sure Charlie has something to say about snippiness causing us to sink below!
*This is the kind of noble tragedy I don't think you care for. But this is another movie I haven't seen in a long time.*
I may have to fire that one up, soon.
*Gunga Din, definitely.*
But you said I wouldn't like it! Those two Coop films must be horrible, then. I'm sure you are right.
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*Right, it's Cukor, Stevens and Capra and the Kanin-Gordons writing.*
That's some real talent, there. I'm curious to see how it all plays out for me.
*Though they gave him pretty big stuff, too, like The Power and the Glory. That's a "Citizen Kane" character and very early on. I think they knew what they had in Spence in terms of talent at Fox, but I'm not sure they really had the material. In those days, musicals and Americana with a little history thrown in seemed to be the Fox specialty. MGM for better or worse, could afford to buy Tracy properties like Jekyll and Hyde, the story of Edison, Captains Couragous, etc. Whatever he wanted.*
I'm not familiar with the history of studios and the like, so I'm definitely taking your word for it. I hate when that happens.
*I'm so excited about Bill in December! I just love him. He's a gent without the slightest trace of snobbery. That's what makes him so ideal as Nick Charles, who's really not a polished guy...he's a former private detective after all, yet Powell makes him so at ease with a lady like Myrna without ever losing his unpretentious manner. And he's always the smartest guy in the room without calling attention to it. I was watching Another Thin Man I think it was, the other day on TCM. It's not their best, but the scenes between Powell and Otto Kruger are so hilarious! Bill keeps doing this double take whenever he looks at Kruger which breaks me up! And Kruger behaves kind of like a wacko, so you understand why, ha haaa! No dialogue, just these looks that pass as if Nick is thinking "Is this guy for real?"*
I like that he can be a rascal. He's basically a mug all dressed up, really. Have you seen *Man of the World* ? It's such an interesting character and performance for Powell.You make *Another Thin Man* sound funny.
*Poor Bogie!*
So you're saying I'm gonna understand and associate with poor Charlie, eh? I'm sure you're right!
*That's really hard to say! however, the contest for me is between Bea and Gunga Din, I don't care much for Bengal. I guess I'd prefer* *Beau Geste, I love Gary, and I find it more tragic.*
What?! When do you ever like tragic?! And you give me heck for liking hopelessness!
So which of those three films do you think I'd like most?
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*Maybe in concept, but the people on board were the best (writers, directors) which made them a little above that.*
That's a great point. That really does make the films more than just "vehicles." It's not just a studio director shooting the script.
*What do you mean "self made"? You mean not a studio creation? Absolutely.*
Yes, that's what I mean. It seems like the studios only saw him as a second banana, not a major star. He wasn't being pushed. He raised himself to star status.
*He was a full-fledged actor right from Up the River. There's no real development except in the nature of the roles, but for himself, he had it all from the beginning. Amazing. Just look at Bogie in the same film, he's so green! He hasn't found himself as an actor, yet. Tracy was unique. Special. I can't say good enough things about him as a performer. No one impresses me as much.*
From what I've seen of Spence, I definitely agree with that. I have really liked him in the 30s. I like his "mugs" and "average Joes." That's something that appeals to me. He's not a flashy guy. He's an honest sack of potatoes. And what's strange is that I like the champagne of William Powell, too. Even a little more than Spence.
*You will find her vulnerability very appealing, but she isn't going to be as desirable because she is past the bloom of youth in those movies. I don't know how you'll react to that. Well, you saw her in Suddenly Last Summer.*
She's superb in *Suddenly, Last Summer*. But I do prefer her youthful and full of girliness. What I'm hoping to like with her in *The African Queen* is her fight.
*Good point, it's a crowd pleaser. I am betting CineMaven puts A Place in the Sun at the top.*
Good call! I'm sure you've nailed it.
*I do consider it the template for all "buddy" action-adventure pictures to come. There is some of Indiana Jones, though I see more* *King Solomon's Mines, John Wayne's* *Legend of the Lost and other 50s adventure movies in that.*
I haven't seen any of those classics. I'm a big Indy fan, though. Which do you like more, *Gunga Din* or Coop's films, *Beau Geste* and *The Lives of a Bengal Lancer* ?
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*I feel that way about a lot of the old stars, actually. They had so much personality, and some, like him and Coop, were put in tons of "vehicles".*
I certainly agree. So are the Tracy & Hepburn films "vehicles"?
*Someone like Tracy got offered the "acting" stuff, the real meat. They say Gable was jealous of that, even though they were friendly. But I'm sure if Gable had it in him they would have given him the heavier stuff, too, but he was insecure about risk taking. Tracy wasn't. Like Kate said, he was unsure in life, but not at all about acting.*
Oh, I'm sure Gable could have chosen demanding roles if he wanted to. But when the gravy train is rolling and the studios view you as their meal ticket, it's tough to change your skin and for them to allow you to do it.
*I like in Woman of the Year the looks Kate gives Spence when they first meet. That moment in the office when he catches her pulling at her stocking, that is a really "movie movie" moment. Special.*
One of my favorite Kate moments was this:
*I also love Kate's hair in this movie. This and The Philadelphia Story are her at her loveliest, I think. Her hair is so soft, it softens her angular features yet it's a sophisticated style, which suits her persona.*
I thought she was rather alluring in *Woman of the Year*.
*Yes, and he could play a real con-man, too yet you always got the feeling inside he was basically a good guy even if he fought against it.*
He seems to be self-made since he was basically given "buddy" roles and "mugs" in the 30s.
*You may always prefer that Kate.*
Something tells me that I will. That's not to say I'm not going to like the older Kate, though.
*Shane is a masterpiece, really, at least in the western genre.*
Absolutely. But there are masterpieces that not everyone likes. With *Shane*, three of us listed it as our favorite for Stevens. I'm sure Movieman would do the same. Something tells me that wouldn't be CineMaven's favorite, though. We need those lists!
*I can't see you liking either. GD is one of the best action movies I've ever seen, though it's not a genre I'm big on. I love Vic in it, old Vic and his darling elephant. :)It's fun seeing Cary being really physical and crazy, too.*
Actually, I believe I'd like *Gunga Din*. It's been called an early version of Indiana Jones. That would be great with me.
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*Definitely. when they get off that carousel, they become more interesting, especially when they were older.*
That's how I feel about a lot of Gable and Coop's films. Gable is almost always entertaining, so much so that he's usually better than the films.
*(How did we get on the subject of Gable and Coop? Not that it's a bad turn in the conversation.)*
Because it seems like the feeling is with Tracy & Hepburn is that they are terrific to watch but their films don't match them. That reminded me of Gable and Coop.
*I like watching him interact with women, best. He's then a combination of sure and unsure, smart and stumped. Lovely. And yes, one of the very, very few dramatically powerful actors who could be very funny.*
I find Spencer Tracy to be one of the warmest of actors. You always get the feeling he's putting his arm around you, giving you a pat on the back. Very honest.
*I love Jekyll and Hyde, love the conflict with himself, the psychology and how dramatic the shift is from one to the other making outward changes superfluous.*
And Tracy's change is mostly done through acting. It's the best performance I have seen from him, and that's saying a heckuva lot, because I like quite a few of his performances.
*She is on all gears but it gets interesting when the same woman takes on roles as in African Queen, The Rainmaker and Summertime. So different. I'd recommend those as well, especially Queen and Summertime. Those are deeper Hepburn performances than the others you mention.*
And those are the films I've yet to see of hers. I'm curious to find out if I prefer the young, crazy comediene or the older, dramatic actress. I really like her when she's young and crazy.
*Favorite Stevens:*
*1. Shane*
*2. Giant*
*3. Penny Serenade*
*4. Swing Time*
*5. A Place in the Sun*
*6. Alice Adams*
*7. Gunga Din*
*8. Woman of the Year*
*9. The More the Merrier*
*10. Vivacious Lady*
So three of us have *Shane* as our favorite Stevens film. We both like *Giant* and *A Place in the Sun* but Jackie does not, yet Jackie and I like *The More the Merrier* and *The Talk of the Town* more. Very interesting! What's with me liking the comedies more than you?!
*Gunga Din* and *Swing Time* are probably the biggest Stevens films I've yet to see.
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*Yes, there are some movies in the 1940 done by Gable and Gary that are not among my favorites. I prefer both men in the 1930s and 1950s (though there are exceptions).*
Both tend to be in a lot of films where their star power is the "story." Lots of "crowd pleasers." Nothing wrong with that, it's just that those kind of films rarely rate highly with me.
*Definitnely you like him super serious the most. So do I, for the most part. I'm surprised to see The Last Hurrah so high. I wonder what you'll think of* *People vs. O'Hara and* *Edward, My Son.*
I was ranking his performances, not his characters or films. I tend to value serious performances more. What's great about Tracy is that his serious performances tend to feature some comedy.
*The Last Hurrah* is a powerful performance by Spence. He does it all, in that one. Lots of great emotion. I ranked *Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde* at the top because the character he plays is so very different to all of his other characters. He's crazy and cruel!
*I'm astonished Holiday finished last...is that because you think of it as Cary's picture? I love the movie and her character.*
Again, I'm basing it on performance. I definitely love "Linda Seton." She's my second favorite Kate character. But in terms of performance, it's rather restrained for Kate. I love her entire vibe in *The Philadelphia Story*, *Bringing Up Baby*, and *Woman of the Year*. She's on fire in those films. Those are the films I'd suggest to someone if they wanted to see Kate.
*Poor Mary didn't evenmake my list, did it?*
You snubbed two Pappy films! What's wrong with you?!
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*I have mixed emotions about them.*
I see! So this is an example of you liking the stars more so than the films. I've noticed that with some stars. The films aren't the greatest but they are enjoyable to watch. Clark Gable is like that with me. Even Gary Cooper.
*It is weird. Kate was married to some sort of "leader" who has an almost cultish aura about him and his mysterious death. Spence is a journalist I think, who's trying to get to the truth they're trying to hide.*
Hmmmm... It seems quite serious.
*I made two separate lists because I enjoy more of the work they did apart from each other.*
Nicely done! I love it! I'm surprised Holiday is at the top for Kate.
My favorite performances by Spence would be:
1. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde
2. The Last Hurrah
3. Inherit the Wind
4. Bad Day at Black Rock
5. Fury
6. Test Pilot
7. Whipsaw
8. Man's Castle
9. Cass Timberlane
10. Woman of the Year
11. Up the River
12. San Francisco
13. Libeled Lady
14. Guess Who's Coming to Dinner
For Kate:
1. The Philadelphia Story
2. Bringing Up Baby
3. Woman of the Year
4. Mary of Scotland
5. Suddenly, Last Summer
6. Quality Street
7. Guess Who's Coming to Dinner
8. Alice Adams
9. Stage Door
10. Holiday
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Thank you for posting your Tracy & Hepburn list, Fordy Guns.
I can't believe how different all three of yours lists are. There isn't a consensus. Although, you all consider *Woman of the Year* to be in the top half of their films. That kind of worries me.
You seem to be very lukewarm with their films.
*Keeper of the Flame* is weird?
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Hola, Little Red Buick -- Thank you for posting your Tracy & Hepburn list. I love seeing how you and CineMaven differ with your choices. Maybe we can get Movieman and Miss G to post theirs, as well.
*Harry, don't come looking for me, my purse is just as empty. But I have some patent medicine I can sell you.....*
Any Limes?*A dance? Sure, but don't get too friendly with your hands. I can take care of myself.*
Ooooohhh! That sounds like a challenge!
*I hate to say, I am with Frankie on his review of Woman of the Year. I like it, but wish it retained the spark of their early scenes.*
You're doomed! If Sam would be funny about his being upset and frustrated, I'd probably like the film in its entirety.
*I just wish he weren't so scattered sometimes, his mixtures of comedy and drama don't always gel for me. Even Talk of the Town, which I love, has problems with it's direction and tone at points.*
That has been my problem with some of Stevens' films. I do like him as a director and I do like his films, but I'd probably love some of his films if they were smoother and tighter, particularly his comedies. I prefer *The Talk of the Town* to *Woman of the Year*.
I've now seen ten Stevens films and they rank as follows:
1. Shane
2. The More the Merrier
3. A Place in the Sun
4. Giant
5. The Talk of the Town
6. Vivacious Lady
7. Penny Serenade
8. Woman of the Year
9. Quality Street
10. Alice Adams
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Thank you for posting your Kate & Spence list, Lively Gal. I always find such lists to be very helpful. Why? Because I'm the uninitiated. Your list ends up being a compass for me. Now I know what direction to go.
I liked the topic at hand in *Vivacious Lady*. So it's not just about Peter's (James Stewart) lack of courage to disappoint his father (Charles Coburn). It's also about his being thwarted in consumating his marriage to Francey (Ginger Rogers). So he's being interrupted and interfered with all over the place.
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Let's see...
1. Tom Doniphon
2. Rip Darrow
1. Ben Wade (Glenn Ford in *3:10 to Yuma* )
2. Woman (Millie Perkins in *The Shooting* )
3. Ben Vandergroat (Robert Ryan in *The Naked Spur* )
4. Liberty Valance (Lee Marvin in *The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance* )
5. Billy Spear (Jack Nicholson in *The Shooting* )
6. Frank Usher (Richard Boone in *The Tall T* )
7. Cicero Grimes (Richard Boone in *Hombre* )
8. Frank (Henry Fonda in *Once Upon a Time in the West* )
9. Jack Bruhn (Burl Ives in *Day of the Outlaw* )
10. Gannon (John McIntire in *The Far Country* )
11. Old Man Clanton (Walter Brennan in *My Darling Clementine* )
12. Waco Johnnie Dean (Dan Duryea in *Winchester '73* )
13. Ramon Rojo (Gian Maria Volonte in *A Fistful of Dollars* )
14. Bob Larkin (Henry Fonda in *Firecreek* )
15. Tevis (Jack Elam in *The Gunfighter* )
16. Judge Roy Bean (Walter Brennan in *The Westerner* )
17. El Indio (Gian Maria Volonte in *For a Few Dollars More* )
18. Bill Masters (Lee Marvin in *Seven Men from Now* )
19. Whitey Harbin (Dan Duryea in *Night Passage* )
20. Bob Amory (Ben Johnson in *One-Eyed Jacks* )
21. **** (Henry Silva in *The Tall T* )
22. Claude (John Dehner in *Man of the West* )
23. Sheriff Dad Longworth (Karl Malden in *One-Eyed Jacks* )
24. Billy Keplinger (Steve Cochran in *The Deadly Companions* )
25. Jack Wilson (Jack Palance in *Shane* )
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Who am I? Dracula?
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*Sir Francis:*
*Thank you. You and the others make me think. Sometimes I don't even know it until I type it but it is often triggered by something you say.*
It's the same with me, actually. I'm always responding to others. I struggle when it comes to initiating. I'm very much reactive. And I don't always know what I'm going to say back until I start to write, just like you. I'm mostly "off the cuff."
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*Oh no! Watch out Menzies! Hank is coming after you!*
She's an easy mark. I think I'll ask her to dance, first. Put her in the mood.
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*Go see Barbra, maybe she has one for you.
* Who?!
*As an individual, no, but he's part of the evil fabric of the city of the "lord" (Lordsburg).*
That's true.
*What's in a name? Everything in this case.
*Like "Snippy"!
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*PUT THAT DOWN! It's empty, anyway.
* I already found that out! Dammit! It's time to scheme Jackie.
*Poor butterscotch, you obviously snubbed her.*
She's busy entertaining Dean-O!
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How do, Denver -- *Coop is a great father figure too, but only in one film I can think of. And his villain in Man of the West is definitely his fear, his past coming back to get him.*
That's a shining example of the villain representing something personal with the hero. Very good!
Howdy, Cowboy Chris -- *I'm not sure that "Frank" in "The Tall T" represents another side of Scott's character as much as he might reflect it. He wants the things that Scott (Pat) wants. He wants a place and a normal sort of life but I think he is conviced he can't get it. It makes the evil of his deeds harder to take thus making him more complex than Pat.*
That's exactly it. And that helps me to remember Pat Brennan (Randolph Scott). He was looking to run his own ranch versus be the foreman for another. He was willing to walk alone to accomplish this. In other words, do the hard work. Frank (Richard Boone) is taking the short cut.
*Going back to "Valance" (Don't we always?) I sometimes see Valance and Tom as two sides of the same coin. Tom is every bit as tough, every bit as hard as Valance but his side of the brain won't let him do it. Valance could never weep for a lost love but Tom is perfectly capable, if not willing, to shoot someone down from the shadows. This is the very thing we would expect of Valance. That difference also comes to Tom's ruination, at least part of it, where Valance would just wander off to his next victim.*
That's wonderful! Expertly expressed. This ain't your first rodeo, is it? Doniphon and Valance are similar in that they are a part of the old west. They are the true cowboys, the white hat and the black hat. Law muddies the water, turns it gray. That's Ranse. With Doniphon and Valance, it's whoever is more respected with the gun and grit. Valance isn't going to push it with the strong, like Doniphon. He needs to go after the weak. Doniphon isn't concerned about Valance because he knows he's tougher than him. He can take him whenever. He just doesn't see him as that big of a deal.
*Shane and Wilson maybe don't fit that description but Shane surely understands Wilson. That doesn't make Shane just like him but there is a dark side that fits Shane's psyche.*
You're spot on. Shane understands Wilson because, in many ways, he's Wilson. There's your reflective. What Wilson does bring about with Shane is his need to be a guardian angel. It's his redemptive act for his past deeds. Alan Ladd plays a similar character in *This Gun for Hire*.
Howdy, Fordy Guns -- I'm ready for my "hello, gorgeous"!
*Plummer killed his father or brother, I can't remember which. Ringo tells Dallas and ends with, "You can't understand what it's like to lose your family/someone close to you" and that's when she tells how her family were massacred on Superstition Mountain (I'm going on memory, sorry).*
So Plummer is purely needed to avenge a wrong. That tells you the villain isn't much needed in *Stagecoach*.
*I remember we discussed how Frank seemed wistful about not having had a ranch, a real life, but didn't he admit at the end that he wanted the gold too much to change? I think he was a bit greedy. Scott was a simple man, he dreamed small, Frank was like a crooked Nathan Stark, he dreamed bigger.*
Oh! I thought you were saying Frank brings things out of Brennan. That's where I was confused. It's true, Brennan is bringing things to the surface with Frank. It's the flip of the hero and villain roles. And I loved that about *The Tall T*.
*I think moviemanofthewest go to it best.*
Hey, I like that!
*I also think Scott makes Boone look at himself. Especially in that "skinning" scene. Boone seems to make excuses for the two crazies with him, and Scott says something that made him think. I don't have this movie to refer to either, sorry! But it's kind of a reverse, instead of the hero being confronted with his fears in the person of the villain, the villain is confronted with his weaknesses in the hero.*
Yes, you have it right. You got it. And are all western villains named "Frank"? There's *The Tall T*, *High Noon*, *Once Upon a Time in the West*, this message board...
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*Don't try to weasel out!*
I'm not! I'm watching Fred & Ginger, for goodness sake! And your female noir!
*And where is butterscotch?*
She strangled herself with her long black gloves over the unbearable guilt of looking to harm such a sweet, darling angel as myself.
*You need to be boiled in oil again. It's overdue.*
What?! I'm a sweet, darling angel! Have I ever told you about my sequoias?
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*For that remark you must watch:*
*Summertime*
*The Constant Nymph*
*Brief Encounter*
*Born to be Bad*
I can't watch two of them until Christmastime. They are on my X-Mas list. But I do have the other two. They have to be better than Crappy and Poopy! *And when your brother calls you up and asks what you're doing, you have to say "I'm watching The Constant Nymph."*
He'll think I'm watching you, then!
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Hola, CinemAva -- *Oooh! I apologize. Well. Well, idealistic is just the way to be...before you fall in love and marry.*
When you've never been in love, it's easier to be idealistic.
*I see. So, your focus was on Sam's reaction to events around him. I guess my gaze was on Hepburn and HOW to be a woman. Sam "soured" and turned into a "wet rag." Tess sort of stayed consistent; still going about her business of "saving-the-world."*
I saw both of them. It's just as you say, Tess was still Tess. Sam changed, and we were basically following Sam's path. How he feels and thinks is where the film goes. So we are being led by a sour feeling. Tess is consistent until the later marriage. Then she changes.
*I gotcha. It's not that you want plots all nicely and neatly tied in a bow...but that the genre mixture you described didn't work for you. Tone. Very delicate thing in movies. Like the mixture you put in your car; things go awry quickly if not done right.*
You've got it exactly. Hitchcock is someone who I think mixed genres extremely well. He knew how to add humor to almost all of his films. In fact, the films of his that lack humor are often the ones I find less appealing. Frank Capra is someone who liked to mix comedy with heavy drama. Light can turn very dark with Capra. And I really like how he does it, too.
*Mmmm hmmm. He wants a little more compromise from her. She doesn't have to be the UberWife. I s'pose if he wanted that he would have married that.*
That's how I took it, yes. I think one of the most difficult things to do with marriage is to put aside your "single ways." That doesn't mean you just up and become a whole new person. But it does mean you can't just spend money like it was only you or that you only watch what you've always watched, etc.. There has to be some kind of change from when you are one to two.
*I think sometimes, back then, directors threw in ev'ry trick in the book to (s)tell a story, but the seamless melding of it really has to work just right.*
That's an excellent point. You are especially right about that with comdies.
*I wouldn't have been surprised to see a pie fight between Hildy and Walter in "His Girl Friday" due to the tone of the whole movie.*
Talk about a buzz kill! Now if Moe could grab a pie, then I'm in. And the end of *Woman of the Year* definitely reminded me of the Stooges.*But the "silent slapstick" at the end of "Woman of the Year" irked me b'cuz I felt, with Tess' competence...she would have logically figured out HOW to maneuver in the kitchen. The over-selling of how much she makes a mess always niggles at the back of my throat.*
I can see why you feel that way, for sure. An intelligent, career woman is all of a sudden a complete idiot in the kitchen. It's a stretch for comedic purposes. I also think it was done to show it's just not Tess. And I liked that Sam knew that and didn't expect her to become such a woman.
The one small little touch that I loved during that scene was how Tess' wardrobe kept getting in her way. She was certainly not dressed for the kitchen.
*Yup! Sexiness is not just about how good you two look together. It's so much more (laughs, respect...) It contributed to such a long screen (and personal) partnership Tracy & Hepburn had.*
I can believe it. I feel love is to make you a nervous wreck at the start and then it's to relax and comfort you later. Your love should make you feel good about yourself.
*Good Grimesy. Hopefully you'll come back and ramble about your thoughts on that film as well.*
I'll definitely do that. Could you do me a favor? Could you rank the Tracy & Hepburn films that you've seen in the order you like them?
*P.S. Still can't get through* *"Lady in the Lake" but the last taut ten minutes with Jayne Meadows was great. A little arch & actressy but her diction is as sharp as a Samurai blade and her eyes are almost as dead as Jane Greer's.. Jayne Meadows would've been a great lethal lady. Very cold around the heart.*
You know, I've yet to watch that one, myself. And I've had it for a while.
Now, now, now! I think he's just showing the breakfast scene as shorthand for homemaker. And the film's ultimate point is evenhanded.
The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread
in Your Favorites
Posted
*Why don't you list the five films, either noir or any genre, that you most want to see next and discuss here on the board?*
**That's really nice of you to ask.
I'll have to put some thought into it. I know I'm interested in watching some Sherlock Holmes.