CineMaven

"You are sure to be a very big hit. French woman is ordinary in France while you are exotic beauty. Everyone knows Imported is always better! " :-) - << (( SANS FIN )) >> IMPORT-A-MAVEN. Get 'er while she's hot! One exotic American-Maven, comin' right up, Monsieur. "Maven, I've seen you on television. You have nothing to worry about." - << (( BRONXGIRL )) >> You are too kind. Thank you. "Yes, put CM in black leather with a whip, there wouldn't be competition left standing. Craw- ling, kneeling, groveling, yes. Standing? Only against a wall, I suspect... 'Do you want a ciga-rette?' 'Any last wishes?'"- << (( OLLIE ))>>[/i] Dude, I can work the black leather, don't let me kid you. I just don't know if I can take the pat-down or the body scan at JFK (our bloody airport. I'll be facing that decision in a coupla weeks when I go to Texas). My next trip to Europe I may sell my American citizenship to the highest bidder and wash toilets in Provence. Our country is getting too whacky!! Who'll volunteers to mail me MAD magazines & Ava Gardner DVDs while I'm in exile? Call me Lady Brett, s'il vous plait. Merci.

Uhmm....that is a BIG difference. Wow! I :x what you wrote.

Breathtaking post Marco. I think you've really hit the nail on the head about Ava Gardner: Her screen persona: ("all have the theme of ava bravely sacrificing her love for her man's greater good"). Her marketing: ("she said that metro did not package her, did not buy film properties for her, constantly loaned her out"). Her effect on fans: ("ava has a potency that shines thru all her films, that us fans still see and are attracted to...i sit thru many ava films just waiting for ava's scenes 'show boat', 'sun also rises', 'snows'....when she's off the screen, sheer boredom!") But Marco, don't you think this was served in "Pandora and the Flying Dutchman"? She is the Pandora of the title and she's got some glorious moments with only James Mason in the way. Moguls! HA! Whaddya gonna do about 'em? "i believe that. there were many beautiful women at mgm in the late 'forties/ early 'fifties, but the mgm brass did not seem to know what to do with them." They could run a monopoly though. As one Ava fan to another, would you also weigh in on what you think is the difference between Ava and Rita? Please this is open to all of you Ava fans.

"I am SOOO doomed. Jeepers... SHE WENT TO THE RACES (1945). Frances Gifford AND Ava? Where's John Hodiak when I might need him? I'm not sure James Craig gets outta this one. And I certainly don't know why he'd want to..." I watched it. It's an innocuous little comedy; predictable but cute. Frances Gifford's the scientist. They've got her duded up rather matronly...as any good scientist would be. But she's pretty and very charming. And then there's Ava. She had a couple of "WOW!" outfits in this early film of hers. You can see the dimple in her chin and hear that husky, raspy voice, and she's doing light comedy. She has a nice touch. They have her dressed up very very stylishly. And when Ava and Gifford square off for some girltalk to bet over the affections of Gable-wannabe James Craig, I think they're very evenly matched. There's no dramatic stretch required for either of them in "She Went to the Races", but they're both pleasant enough. I still wonder why Frances Gifford wasn't a bigger star. But I can sort of see from here (1944) why Ava was. Oooh, now to go from the dark to the light. Gloria DeHaven's a cute little package in "Two Girls and A Sailor." And so is boyishly handsome Van Johnson.

PUT THE BLAME ON MAME? NOT THIS TIME. Good morning Mighty Aphrodite. You?ve laid out some wonderful buffet of thoughts re: Ava and her screen persona for her fans here on Ye Olde Message Board. "i find it delightful that in both his films with Ava, Clark finds himself dancing to a phony tune for a woman, a ?lady?. Ava seems to represent the other kind of woman in his life, the honest, earthier kind. it's just a glimmer, but the ?Honey Bear? to come is there inside ?Jean Oglive?.? Aaah yes. She has a light touch in "The Hucksters" and doesn't va-va-va-voom him with her sen-suality. She's sort of a good-time, even though we see she wants more. What I marvel at, or forget, or wonder about is how she can dial it back. After all, the movie she did just before "The Hucksters" is "THE KILLERS." And she had 'It' exhuding from her pores. Wanting what we can?t have. Actually, that?s wrong, I?m mis-stating that. It?s a sort of being blind to the thing that?s really for us. A lot of times Gable wanted ?the lady? when he was really better suited for the more down-to-earth gal, as you wrote, Miss G. He wanted something better for himself, better than himself. I also like seeing this movie because though they have no scenes together, I know that twenty-odd years later, she would work with Deborah Kerr again in "Night of the Iguana." Some how, I bet these gals were great pals on the set. Leave Richard & Elizabeth to the paparazzi in Mexico, while Ava and Deborah laughed and talked and drank and dished about the various leading men they shared like Gable or Lancaster or Sinatra (a mini-trivia brain teaser for you since you're such a good movie buff) Peck, Granger, Taylor and Niven. Mmmmm, would that I could, I'd give all my cine-fantasy kingdom for just one pairing between Ava and Mitchum. Yeah, maybe he could handle Jane Russell...but AVA? I love her easy-breezy entrance in "The Huck- sters" when she greets Gable. When complimented by Menjou, she tells him she's wearing her hair differently. Now, that self-reference is something you talk about in your post, further down. In "The Killers" her hair was long and cascading. Here it's tight curls. I'm telling you, it's the hair that gets her in trouble. "Now don't be like that. You know you're not going to pick up anything better between now and tonight." I love when she says that. It's like she's got his number pegged already. She knows him. "Am I wrong or was this first time Ava played the character she would come to do over and over again...the woman rejected by the man she loved? (I shouldn't say ?rejected? but rather she is denied the happy ending with her loves).? I do believe you?re right, Miss G. I never noticed that. Why can?t she find happiness? I always had this thought...this hazy, unformed thought that it was a kind of punishment Movies meted out to its goddesses becuz of their beauty...("you think because you are beautiful you will have everything? Well, my pretty...you will have NOTHING!!!!!!") Perhaps some insecurity or anxiety on Man?s part /Moguls' part, or how vulnerable She makes Man feel that they wrote these tortured stories for our Ritas, Lanas...Avas, to over-compensate for some deep-seated anxiety. You know what I'm saying?? Aww man, I dunno what I'm saying. I'm no armchair psychiatrist. If I sound unclear it?s becuz I can?t put it into words. I?m hoping to get by with..."you know what I?m sayin??" You know what I'm sayin'? "I feel **** is a wonderful challenge for Ava and I think she acquits herself believably. the only problem is that i feel like she's really most torn over finding her place in terms of a woman, not as someone interested in the politics.? Yes I agree. Politics? I didn?t think her character cared too much about that, other than the fact that she didn?t want to see her people treated unfairly...harshly. I think of Merle Oberon who was bi-racial, no? I think Ava did a good job in this. I guess I am guilty. I was impatient waiting to see her romanced, waiting for the clinches with handsome Stewart Granger. It was a long time into the picture before Granger warmed up. Yes, in "Bhowani Junction" Ava had a role to sink her teeth into; happiness, sadness, fear, uncertainty...she had a lot to show. "she brings the epic struggle depicted in the film to a personal level, to how a woman feels being caught between two worlds. she can't help herself from loving the man who in many ways represent what she loathes, and she cannot force herself to love the man who treats her the best and who she admires.? For me, it?s tough to swallow the whole elephant of an epic...Sometimes I need it broken down to the personal level. We want what we want, don?t we? G0 AVA!!! She?ll hold out for what she wants even if she has to go through hell. That marriage ceremony scene was torturous waiting for her to break outta there. When she ran out, I don't even think any of the men noticed. And check out this sick twisted development, why didn't that nice, noble guy in the office find a nice Indian girl to mar-ry. His mother put down Ava, and then wanted her son to marry Ava. Hmmm...somebody's not being honest here. (I'm glad Ava got away. The prospect of that freedom-fighting harridan as a mother-in- law is enough to make me shake in my boots!) ?she is someone alive, real and earthy, even if her beauty is staggeringly "goddess like". but it's not untouchable. her feet are always bare and in the dirt. and she's good at reminding her men they are no better.? Excellent description, really. If you have any time or inclination, would you be able to tell me what you see as the difference between Ava and Rita? Why does Rita seems to be more in the con-sciousness of old movie buffs than Ava? I'm sure "Gilda" has something to do with it. I don't know if Ava is so hotly identified by one role. Or is there one definable Ava role? "i think she may have out-done Garbo as the queen of tragedy. Did any other actress die more onscreen or lose her lovers?? Yikes! Paul Lukas just put a sheet over her head in "55 Days At Peking.? Yup, she?s a goner. How has this thought never crossed my mind with Ava. Again, you got something there, G. "it's funny how many of her films make oblique references to her previous works, to repeating motifs or to places and incidents that she became associated with over the course of her career and private life. this only happens rather rarely among performers, mostly with those that conjur a specific type of person in the imagination of the public, and usually only among the really biggest stars." Ava seems larger than life. I love the life imitates art imitates life imitates art aspect you bring up, one other thing I never thought of about her. What most amaaaaaaazes me, is how a little ol' gal from some hick town in North Cakalacky be sooooooooooo darned exotic? I truly only think Angelina Jolie comes a close distant light years to the Ava mystique. Do you see Ava in anyone working in films today other than Diane Lane? Edited by: CineMaven on Nov 19, 2010 5:27 AM...no no, just kidding. Wanted to see if you're paying attention.

Of all the lovely Ava's being shown tonite, the ones I look forward to seeing most will be these: 10:00 PM On the Beach (1959) After a nuclear war, U.S. sailors stationed in Australia deal with the end of civilization. Cast: Gregory Peck, Ava Gardner, Fred Astaire. Dir: Stanley Kramer. BW-134 mins, TV-PG, CC, Letterbox Format 5:00 AM Hucksters, The (1947) A war veteran fights for honesty in the advertising game. Cast: Clark Gable, Deborah Kerr, Ava Gardner. Dir: Jack Conway. BW-116 mins, TV-PG, CC (Keenan Wynn's great in this). 19 Friday 7:00 AM She Went To The Races (1945) A pretty scientist with a system for horse-race betting falls in love with a trainer. Cast: James Craig, Frances Gifford, Ava Gardner. Dir: Willis Goldbeck. BW-86 mins, TV-G In two of the films, she'll star with two actors whom she'll work with again. She's never girlish... she's always a Woman for a grown-up man to work opposite...maybe slightly reducing him to a schoolboy. But I always thought she was a great partner for a Man. Really want to see how Frances Gifford stacks up opposite Ava. Gifford managed to pull my attention away from Lana last month. Will early Ava be a force to be reckoned with in this little comedy? I wonder...I'll find out soon enough. I hadn't finished it yet (and thanxx to my cine-fairy godfathers I can watch it at my leisure on DVD) but I have been getting to "Pandora and the Flying Dutchman" slowly. Prolonging the experience, I guess. Aaaah, there she is: Ava as Circe asking men to prove their love for her with devastating results (which were probably worth it...ok, ohhhkkkkkkay, maybe they weren't). I enjoyed her in "Bhowani Junction" believing her struggle to find where she fits in in the world. I've never seen her look more beautiful in both those movies and... Who am I kidding...I can't fool you all out there...I can't write intelligently/intellectually about Ava b'cuz she's such a visceral force. But suffice to say, her beauty is just one of her assets and might have even gotten in the way of people appreciating her talent. She was fierce, she was vulnerable, she didn't take her self seriously...she was AVA. TCM, all I can humbly say is thank you for making Ava the star of the month. I am just one of her many, very happy fans.

I'm glad you brought up Widmark in regards to "WARLOCK." It is one of my favorite westerns (me a film noir gal) and haven't seen it in years. I'm marking it on my calendar. Thanx!

"You can't please everyone so..." I think Rick Nelson said it best when he sang his last hit song. You'll always find naysayers, J.F. Folks love to nitpick apart TCM. That's where they get their kicks from, they can have at it. To me it says more about the naysayers than it does about the documentary. Aaaah don't you love so-called "experts." Me...you...others, we're enjoying the "MOGULS AND MOVIE STARS" documentary. I daresay if Brownlow's documentary were to air, those same naysayers would pick that apart within an inch of its life, and that documentary is s'posed to be the Mt. Everest of documentaries about Hollywood. I guess that's 'human' nature. I guess. So far from what I've seen in these three parts of the "MOGULS..." documentary, there's a lot that I already know, but there's a helluva lot that I am learning. I'm having a great time with it.

Didn't he play Ben Franklin in "1776" or am I thinking of someone else?

"...you have to rely on the parent within yourself." You've crystallized that point wonderfully. That's what I've thought at various times when I sometime say to myself: "I've raised myself." I wish Thymian a lot of luck. I hope she finds real happiness and gets outta there. Ho boy! She's not a real person, is she.

YES!!!!! Take that: :x And that: :x :x AND THAT!!!! :x :x Can you handle that! Edited by: CineMaven on Nov 16, 2010 1:01 AM...ohhhkay, let me take back one of those :x lest I am reported for sexual harassment.

Well....if I may be so bold: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJo3w66JorM

Hey, I never beat up a boy...that didn't deserve it. You really are a fount of information. :-)

Uh-oh. I love the information on the moguls. But bring on the movie stars!!! YaY!!! :x

I dunno man. I'm thinking of the school playground. Hmmmm...not so good. Is Thymian pronounced with a short "i" or long "i" as in time?

Hey, why am I thinking of "The Graduate"??? Parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme.... Silly Billie-Maven.

There's a soft spot in my heart for the Cathy O'Donnells and Donna Reeds and the Edna Purviances and all those sweet girls who make my favorite leading men melt like molasses. "SHANGHAI GESTURE"??? Oh boy...and once again, you've thrown me for a loop! With pictures to boot.

I fear I haven't given you my best fullest response. I've been flippant. Let me ponder what you've posed and give you a real answer. Rohanaka... :x

WoW!!! I am, the weakest link.

"But you know what sets it apart from the numerous other westerns? That adorable theme music! Hear it once, you're hooked for life!" Silly ol' me. I thought it was because Chuck Connors was a lean mean tall drink o' water with a beautiful stride down that dusty street shootin' off that Rifle, man. Tsk!

Looking at "Dangerous Profession." I'm pretty impressed with Jim Backus being a tough cop. Just a side note...when Georgie questions this blonde secretary, I swear...I think it's Peggy Cummins of "Gun Crazy" fame. Small eyes, blonde hair, British accent. I don't see her name in the credits...but I know my lethal ladies. George Raft has amazing eyes.

Well cut me down and call me Shorty. You make excellent points about the women of "The Diary..." Women sometimes are much more cruel to other women than men are to women. And you laid out the points so clearly even my myopia could see it. I understand what you mean about the 20's audience possibly turning against Thymian and blaming the victim. (But they might have sided with her if they saw her fight against the brute strength). I'm not quibbling the point. A silent movie (without Garbo) is making me think??? What next. I liked what you said Jackaaaaaaaaaaaay about Lulu, the time traveler. Good golly. If anyone could travel through time, I believe it'd be Louise. Looking at that interview she seems like a force of nature. Travelling on the #6 train home today, I saw a father and his 2-3 year old daughter get on the train. She was in a carriage...he picked her up, put her on the seat. He had his arm around her to protect her from the bar of the seat. He let her stand up on her own, but his arm was always near. she put her arms around his neck, he kissed her little cheeks. Their stop came and they got off. I'm thinking this little girl has a good start with her view of men. I'm hoping so.

...And yet another thought just popped into my pointy head. I love leading men, with strong leading women. These guys seem a little more manly to me if they don't have a fey shrinking violet by their side dropping her hankie or falling down when they're running from the Law. She gives as good as she gets. I think of Hepburn and Stanwyck and Bette. Ida Lupino opposite Georgie in "They Drive By Night" just to name so very very few. Myrna oppo- site Gable. Lombard wasn't helpless. Basically neither was Irene Dunne. Nor Ann Sheridan (...though I know there's nothing that can help Robert Cummings in your eyes). :-)

Hello there Jackaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay - The below is my friend's comment to me about Lulu. And I have comments to make to you guys who've posted about "Diary of a Lost Girl." "Well, I guess it's true that great minds think alike. I took another look at 'Diary...' yesterday. Compelling is indeed an accurate description of Louise. She always claimed, when talking about her career, that she was not an actress, that she just acted like herself in front of the camera. Just between you and me, I can't buy that. The intensity of her screen presence could perhaps be attributed to her personal magnetism and photogeneity, but the depth and variety of the characters she played are surely the result of something more mental than she would admit to, not to mention hard work. Even though she seems to have been drunk most of, if not all, the time she was working, there is much more in these films than an empty-headed flapper. While this is most evident in her best movies, like the two somewhat heavy-handed Pabst films, her first (dubbed) talkie 'Prix de beaute', and her last American silent 'Beggars of Life' (You must see this!), it is also true in the smaller parts she played in lighter films, especially 'The Show-Off' (written by Grace Kelly's uncle) in which she is, literally, 'the girl next door'. This latter is a welcome relief to see her as a normal girl after all the torture and abuse she undergoes in her most famous pictures. Lulu forever, R.R." " I am pretty sure that in Germany, women were seriously expected to be helpless, dainty creatures, or if they weren't, to at least APPEAR that way - it was an ideal. Men were in complete and total control of the business, the household everything." I have no doubt and am in total agreement with you, that the way someone is raised probably is revealed in his/her filmmaking. Why do men fall for these "helpless" types? My dad was the head of the household. Oh, he's still alive and my parents are together...but maybe because my siblings and I are grown, we're no longer trembling in our boots, but face him with logic and reason. Besides...we can out-run him now at 83 years old. Hopefully if a girl has a good relationship with her father, she will pick a guy whose not an old meanie. (I'm simplifying this horrifically, okay?) How do I bring this back to Thymian... Well, her relationship with her father wasn't that great, so look at her choices. I'm a cine-Maven not a psych-Maven. Hold your ground over there at home, man. Perhaps your husband picked a girl UN-like his Mom??? <<< (( MEINERT GRIMES writes )) >>> ?There's a great mix of chains and liberation and each seems to cause pain and hurt. There's a lot of using and abusing of woman in this world.? Oooh wow, I liked how you put that. Nicely worded. "There's a lot of truth in what you say. You see, I think of Thymian's father (Josef Rovensk?) being the 'protected Junior.' Instead of confronting him and his improprieties, the family looked to cover them up and get rid of the 'problem.' They do this to Elisabeth (Sybille Schmitz) and then Thymian. They are looking to protect the money man, the 'spoiled child.' Wow. I hadn?t thought of it that way. Good thought. Well, we can see the kind of bankrupt character he turned out to be. "The film completely takes off for me from that point on. The pain between a father and a daughter. She wants his love and he's wanting to give it to her. But he's too weak to allow it to happen. He's overruled by Meta (Franziska Kinz), who has a very selfish reason for doing so. So, once again, the father abandons the daughter.? Wonderful screen caps there Grimesy. She wants to be Daddy?s Little Girl, but he allows himself to be pulled away by the wife/housekeeper, and his daughter?s rapist. What?s Dad doing fraternizing with a rapist. Those caps you chose made me think of Genevieve Bujold and Cliff Robertson in ?OBSESSION.? Have you ever seen this DePalma film? ?So that's why Miss G hates me!? Nah, Frank. The reasons are actually innumerable. ?He had been given so much FREEDOM from responsibility for so long.. he was utterly USELESS as a responsible adult.? - Rohanaka ?Hey! That's me! Where's the window?!? Don?t jump. Your fate lies in the hands of some femme noir lethal lady. Kathy Moffett?s been asking for you. Oh...and some dame named Phyllis. <<< (( PEACEMAKER-HANAKA writes )) >>> "They certainly were 'equal opportunity' users and abusers. Almost the entire cast would have to rate among the most vile and lecherous bunch I can ever recall in a story like this. There were a few kind people in among the monsters.. but OH my golly, they were few and far between...? They were despicable, weren?t they?!! What a rotten bunch! The proverbial deck is stacked against Thymian. (And it starts with that name. What the heck IS that name??) "I was SO glad when he proved to be THE stand up guy he was appearing to be. And wow, I admired him so much as he said his closing line. It truly reinforced the depth of character and the sadness he felt over the loss of his nephew. (and I think also the love he now felt for Thymian as his niece).? As the Uncle sat back and watched Thymian in the Reformatory School and how she (finally) took a stand, I think Uncle Osdorff loved her strength. And it probably gave HIM strength. "As a result, she was the victim of her father (and his new wife).. the family ?elders?, the pharma-cist, the reformatory workers, the madame, and even the well meaning society women... More or less, either directly...or indirectly...she was made a virtual slave to her circum-stances by EACH of these folks who were just going along out there doing whatever they saw fit any way they wanted. And I imagine most of them did not even realize (or if they DID realize they did not care about) the harm they were causing this poor girl.? I?m also going to hold Thymian accountable for her actions as well. She didn?t quite have to go along with the flow once she escaped Reformatory School. She was attractive. She would have been hired as a shop girl. I?m not quite letting her off the hook. At some point, she had a choice. "...What a MEAN and cruel hand she was dealt by the actions of others.. and yet not a mean nor cruel bone in her body when it was over.. amazing.? See, this is what separates me from Silents or this kind of plot. This is what makes me flee to the women of film noir who take matters into their own hands (most time for bad, admittedly and admirably). I can?t take all the goodness and ?being Good shall overcome Evil.? What'd Thelma Ritter say in "All About Eve" -- all that's missing are the wolves nipping at her heels! "I was thinking last night about how REALLY.. by giving the money away.. it was the FIRST time Thymian was given ANY ownership of her own circumstances.? Did she give away the money b?cuz she saw the children??? Her child? Was one of those kids her daughter? I got confused there. <<< (( JACK FAVELL writes )) >>> "I think you hit on some really interesting aspects of the movie - that when personal responsibility is avoided, evil happens. The way one person's evil act and the lies surrounding it snowballs into an avalanche of people passing the buck.....how people are swayed into evil acts, and then make excuses for their actions.? Hi there. Back to your previously posted comments. I just saw "FAIR GAME? yesterday starring Naomi Watts & Sean Penn and your statement hits home about how one person?s evil has an avalanche of consequences for others. Speak up...speak out!!! "I agree about how you get hooked waiting to see how it will all work out for Thymian - I was worried because it was a German film that she would end up badly. I am so glad they took it in another direction, and that she had such inner strength. Where do you suppose she got it from?? I dunno man. But I?m a coward. Oh yeah...I am. I have such a problem with silent films. The hokeyness of story telling mostly I guess, oh and the acting style. I can?t get into them. They seem dated, and the heaping of tragedy upon tragedy upon mishap upon moral upheaval is just too much for me to buy happening to one person. (Unless its Tom Conway in "DETOUR"). So when I watch a silent, I go in with gritted teeth. I go in like I'm taking in Castor Oil. And German films (in general) don?t thrill me either, in really the most general of terms. Things seem so harsh, spartan, militaristic. Ugh! Nothing soft. So I have to go for the mise-en-scene. I have to look at other things. (Still want to re-visit "M"). But "Diary..." is about ten years after Griffith and all that gesticulating acting style. This film felt pretty modern. It didn't hurt too bad. But the one thing that compelled me to watch, commanded me to continue to watch how it all played out...was Louise Brooks. "I am really rambling about this - I don't think it makes much sense, just random thoughts.? Don?t you know yet, your rambling random thoughts make so much more sense than all of the sniping sniveling sour grapes posts I read on this Message Board? Edited by: CineMaven on Nov 15, 2010 10:50 AM had to make that word: un-like...

Okay Helen...blame the keyboard. ;-) Ha....