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CineMaven

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    Richard Boone

    in Your Favorites

    Posted

    You're missing the purpose. The OP's purpose is to create threads ad nauseum, not engender conversation and discussion. Just check the other drive-by threads.

     

    WILLIAM BENDIX

    http://forums.tcm.com/jive/tcm/thread.jspa?threadID=155553&tstart=0

     

    RICHARD WIDMARK

    http://forums.tcm.com/jive/tcm/thread.jspa?threadID=155702&tstart=0

     

    JOHN CARROLL

    http://forums.tcm.com/jive/tcm/thread.jspa?threadID=155448&tstart=15

     

    LOUIS HAYWARD

    http://forums.tcm.com/jive/tcm/thread.jspa?threadID=155646&tstart=15

     

    RICHARD ROBER - ( A real stretch )

    http://forums.tcm.com/jive/tcm/thread.jspa?threadID=155578&tstart=15

     

    VIRGINIA MAYO

    http://forums.tcm.com/jive/tcm/thread.jspa?threadID=155566&tstart=15

     

    Etc. Etc. Etc.

     

    ?Course there?s nothing in the rules against creating threads like this. But it would be great if the poster combined all his ?favorites? into one thread where we all could go. Unless there is an ulterior motive to his posting.

     

    Oh well...

     

    I still advocate for a real overhauling of the loop hole-ridden Code of Conduct. Any word Renee? Pete? Anybody?

    Focus on Fritz Lang

    in Films and Filmmakers

    Posted

    I wanted to read what you wrote! Your opinion always interests me. You challenge me. ;-)

     

    Challenge? Great. You wouldn?t want me easy. Many have called me good, but none have called me easy. :P

     

    I just know how daunting a task it can be when a discussion has been hot and heavy and you're late to the show. You have to read a couple pages and then you have to find a way to piece together replies. You're right, you really do need to have the want to do it.

     

    I did. I crave conversation with the genuine posters on the Board who love classic films. I learn much from you good people.

     

    :DSo you have felicitous murder rooms, too?

     

    DUH!!! Doesn?t everybody? Step into MY PARLOR, Mr. Grimes.

     

    That's perfectly said. The chicken and the egg of "In a Lonely Place." Phenomenal.

     

    Now wasn?t THAT The Ramble of ALL AGES? I want everyone's permission to publish that one.

    I wonder if mon pauvre petit Lafitte has EVER recovered? I wish him well wherever he is.

     

    My mom would probably pass out if I was with a girl.

     

    Ohhhhhhkay. So bring home a guy. It?s the twenty-first century. Times have changed.

     

    So she's the Prowler! :PI might have known. I don't think she'd like the film as a whole because it's a mess, but I do believe she'd completely understand Celia and Mark and enjoy some of the "love and marriage" commentary.

     

    Sometimes the messy films manifest the best Rambles. C?mon Jackaaaaay. We?re waiting.

     

    :DWomen!

     

    Yay!!!

     

    If you want to know how metaphorically naughty Hitch was, just let me know, and I'll send you a tidbit via PM. It may change how you view one of his films, though.

     

    Hit me with your best shot, Celia. I am unshakable in my love for Hitchcock. Or maybe I just want to know the secret beyond his door. We'll compare scarves.

     

    I tend to have a strong "feminine" side to me. I'm highly sensitive and terribly curious about feelings and interaction.

     

    A-ha! So you?re the modern-day Alan Alda. If you?re being true about that, you should be beating the ladies off with a stick. All we want is someone who understand us; and picks up the check.

     

    You don't know how many times I've been told to "jump in the river." :D

     

    I do know...about five times in this film discussion.

     

    So have you ever been told "I love you" and then wondered, "is it true?"

     

    I?ve been more of an ?action-speaks-louder-than-words? kind of gal. I?ve read those words to me on paper, and I?ve felt the action of those words in different ways. I've believed those "lucky few"

    to be telling me the truth, b?cuz of their actions.

     

    You're making me laugh, smartmouth! :P

     

    That?s my job. Now send me that PM, Ashley. :D

    Focus on Fritz Lang

    in Films and Filmmakers

    Posted

    Why hello there goddess of Goddesses - Thank you for the suggestions. I actually may have seen Glengarry Glen Ross without remembering Alec was in it. I do tend to confuse the Baldwin boys with one another.

     

    Might I please recommend first putting "MALICE" on your Netflix queue? (Baldwin-Nicole Kidman-Bill Pullman and Bebe Neuwirth. George C. Scott and Gwyneth Paltrow have small roles in it. Anne Bancroft has a seven minute scene that's wonderful as well and is worth the whole movie, for me).

     

    But, if it is a "marriage as horror story" type of film, it makes more...I won't say sense, but it fits the whole dream-like path we start upon. I tend to take many aspects of the movie literally and perhaps this is what trips me up.

     

    I fell down a couple of times during my viewing. But if I take a second stab at it, I'll go the "marriage-as-horror-story" mindset. It probably'll clear things up for me.

     

    And even more difficult if the pay-off is happily ever after with Mikey. Blah. :D

     

    Ha! Yeah...imagine swinging on a hammock with him for the next thirty years., but as you say, they probably will be divorced anyway.

     

    Actually, no...what doggie? The one Lang inserted for our benefit so we would think he was a nice guy?

     

    Yes. When Celia goes in her husband's bedroom ( oy vey! ) he's taking a shower. She looks for the key, but first scans the room. When the camera pans the room, there's the little dog. The dog got to sleep in the room with Markie Mark. I think he's the only one in the movie that had nothing

    to fear.

     

    You know we're not in for Cary Grant in "That Touch of Mink"...I think Hitch had a sense of humor, that's why he could do it. I suspect Lang lacked humor.

     

    I'm inclined to agree with you. Didn't the Austrian wear a monocle? Can you trust a director who has 20/20 vision in only one eye?? Ooops! I know...I know.

     

    Well, he's the one who would, in my opinion, suffer the greater loss if he killed his love. That

    would be tragic. All his fears, which really had no solid basis in reality, would have driven him to the extreme.

     

    Then we would have had "VERTIGO" without the gorgeous San Francisco settings.

     

    Great comparison to "Gun Crazy." Like I said, maybe these two people need to be with each other so they don't terrorize any innocent mates.

     

    :)

     

    I think Miss Robey is the perfect wife for Mark. She knows what to do with that scarf. :D

     

    HA!! That put me over the edge...and spit some scrambled eggs on the "A" "S" "D" "F" side of my keyboard. Thanx!

    Focus on Fritz Lang

    in Films and Filmmakers

    Posted

    Wonderful replies, Lively Gal! I know how difficult a task it can be to read through lots of posts and then reply to multiple people. It takes a lot of effort. You did a fantastic job.

     

    Thanks so much. It takes time...and the desire to WANT to do it, so it was fun for me. But it is better to keep up with the conversation in real time. Who the hell wants to read all I have to say

    in one fell swoop. A little M?Ava goes a long way I realize. Thank you for taking the time to read

    my replies.

     

    So you didn't find the film to be fascinating?

     

    Actually no. But I?ll tell you this, reading your explanations and reasons have certainly opened my eyes to the points of the movie that my ?literal? mind missed. (You did warn us NOT to look at this literally). What is love and marriage and faith and trust. Your post has made me THINK of the mo-

    vie differently. That?s quite a big deal.

     

    I believe some of the fears of marriage are taken to an extreme level in this film to make it a horror/thriller. It's marriage as a horror film. I really like that.

     

    Seee?! See what I mean? Like that thought. I hadn?t thought of the film like that. Before I had decided not to watch the film again, but with this change of mindset based on the points you

    bring up...I think I will give Fritzie another shot.

     

    Do I think Celia was smart to jump into marriage without knowing a darn thing about her man just because she was excited by him? Of course not.

     

    Good to know.

     

    There is a push-pull that causes a person to want love, desperately, but then run from it when it's near, out of fear. I know it, personally.

     

    Yes, guilty as charged as well; and then I wonder ?Why can?t I find what I want?? Squirrels to the nuts I am. Squirrels to the nut.

     

    My mom left my dad. Should I trust a woman not to do the same to me? Yes, I know life is full of "what ifs," but fears are also part of the equation.

     

    :-( Sorry to hear that. Fear might be factored into things, but hopefully will be unfounded (OR WORKED THROUGH) and a ?happily ever after? can happen. I wish that for you.

     

    And, even if a man is upfront with a woman, it doesn't mean he'll get the woman he wants. You just never know.

     

    Yeah that's true; Ugh! what a crap shoot.

     

    Thanks. And I really don't just throw films up against a wall. I mention the films that I'm reminded of, that's all.

     

    I know. I really do know that.

     

    If the reason Celia left Mark would be because he strangled her, I'd understand. It would be the same with Laurel. But I believe Laurel was leaving Dix before he ever laid a hand on her.

     

    You?re right Grimesey. His physicality at the end was just the icing on the cake. He had strangled the relationship long before that by creating doubt and fear in Laurel?s mind. But yes (to the other camp out there) Laurel should have spoken to Dix plainly...clearly...honestly. She created the fears and doubts in Dix that manifested itself in his getting more and more crazed.

     

    And I would be okay with Celia. Would mom? No.

     

    Just know that no Mom is probably EVER really satisfied with her daughter-in-law. Besides...she?s just a go-between to getting the grandchildren parents really want.

     

    She's a runner. For her to trust herself, she must stop running. Runners do not believe in themselves, more than anything else. They don't trust themselves to handle the situation, so they flee it. The majority of the time it is about them and their lack of self-confidence, not the situation. Again, I know this feeling. And maybe that's just it. I completely understand the feelings of both Celia and Mark. Jackie really needs to see this film. I want to hear her opinions on this one.

     

    There?s so much truth in what you say that can be applied to people with identity problems as well. They can?t trust being themselves so...and I think you?re very lucky if you can understand both sides of the coin in many situations. A real gift. As for Jackaaaaaaaay, I know she?s lurking...but she?ll come out soon enough and then you?d better be ready with your reasons, explanations and musings Mister Mister.

     

    But the imperfect are far more interesting to watch.

     

    Aren't they though.

     

    Ahhhhh, so it is a game! We have to "work" at it! Celia was basically looking for an affirmation of Mark's want to desperately have her. It's a classic case of "no meaning yes." And you won-

    der why we men are always confused by you women!

     

    Yes you?re right. No you?re not. What was the question?

     

    By the way, some of us guys love playing games but most cannot stand it.

     

    THAT?s an understatement.

     

    The majority of men and women don't let their fears prevent them from living life, but we all have these fears (inadequacies) inside of us. Love can be dangerous. On one hand, the danger excites. On the other hand, it frightens. Push-pull. Am I the only one who sees it this way?

     

    No you?re not alone in that. Others will speak to that I?m sure, Ashley.

     

    Well, just don't let my man Dobbsy talk to you about "Vertigo." You will find a different answer. And I LOVE "Vertigo" for its psychological. The actual STORY is the macguffin. Awesome. I also love ?Spellbound? for those lines that you have to read between.

     

    Ha, ain?t that the truth. Nope, fat chance. I?d rather talk to a Romantic about ?VERTIGO.? That?s the mindset to have facing that Hitchcock film. To lay out a plot as metaphor takes a great talent, less people mistake a cigar for just a cigar.

     

    Lang is also detail-oriented but I believe he was mostly interested in the visual details, such as mise en sc?ne. But one of the things I like most about Lang is that he often challenged the viewer. That's definitely "me." I completely eat that up.

     

    Call me bone lazy. I?m not up to a challenge. I want my movies washing over me, into me...into my heart...through my pores. I don?t want to work and think and be challenged. HA! I can?t eat popcorn AND think at the same time. All that thinkin? and chompin?. Geez!! Too darned loud, I can't hear the movie.

     

    You've never been in this position? You've never had a man say to you, "I love you," and then you think to yourself, "does he really?" By the way, I've never had a girl tell me they love me. I need to get me some felicitous rooms!

     

    Leave those rooms to other men Grimesy. You?re loved. Every day one of the girls on the Mess-age Board tells you that. They tell you with their posts...they argue with you, they want to tie you

    up with frozen ropes, they want to feed you sawdust. Can?t you feel it. You?re loved.

     

    I think women are more instinctual than men. I believe they are more perceptive of human nature. As the saying goes, "a woman's intuition."

     

    You got that right Bub. But since you can empathize with both sides, I think you have a lot of woman?s intuition in you as well.

     

    If you loved a guy and married him and he later told you he had a kid would you no longer love him? It's over, right then and there? You would probably think as Celia, though: "What other things hasn't he told me?"

     

    Trust. It's as strong as the cables that hold up the Brooklyn Bridge, and as fragile as a strand of hair on a baby's head.

     

    Aaaaah...the Rubik?s cube of Life. Keep swimming Grimesy, me boy!

     

    Edited by: CineMaven on Sep 27, 2010 9:36 AM - Now...I've got to find the Inner Meaning to "Blood of Dracula" and watch a Lady Scientist strike a blow for Women's Lib by turning her student into a "grotesque, mis-shapen fiend." And there's not a challenge in one of its seventy minutes. Aaah, just the way I like it.

    :P

     

    Re-Edited by: CineMaven on Sep 27, 2010 9:48 AM...oh boy, b'cuz prepositions and grammar count when you're trying to make a point. I'm still in touch with my tenth grade English tea-

    cher. Now let me read what Moira has to say and reallllllllly get my head twisted around this movie.

    Focus on Fritz Lang

    in Films and Filmmakers

    Posted

    Another fine ramble Maven.

     

    Coming from you...I'm flattered.

     

    Joan was something to behold. I was enticed, entranced, enamored. I...I want to see more. So it is on to the window, the beach and to Scarlet Street for me.

     

    Enjoy. But beware, you'll be like a moth to a flame. I've seen some harsh hard noir babes in my day, but I swear to beans, the harshest thing I ever heard was Joan say: "they'll be master-

    pieces." Her harsh venomous tone took my breath away. You'll know what I mean once you take the Joan Bennett tour.

     

    Lang is the one who is playing around with perspectives here, so I'm just rolling with it. Since the film starts with Celia talking in a dreamlike state, with all the weird dream imagery, I just went with that. If we look at the characters through her perspective, and she does have a lot of issues, then we can think of each character being shaped by her own hopes and fears, thus my comment on their unreality. David, Caroline, Miss Robie and particularly Mark are real enough but what we are seeing might be, in part, embellished forms projected out of her own neurosis.

     

    I love your use of language. Gosh I hope this all isn't a dream (though it would make sense if all these characters really are pieces of Celia). Listen, after Bobby Ewing came back to life on "Dal-las" with that dream twist...it is my least favorite of all plot devices and the biggest cop out an author could use, this side of the Mason-Dixon line. And if you knew Dixon, like Laurel knew Dixon...oh...oh...oh what a guy.

     

    Was your problem with the actor or the character? Dean Stockwell would have been younger which might have worked better...

     

    I think my problem was with the actor, Mo'. I wouldn't want to see young Dean in this film, (besides, Mark couldn't beget a sweet little curly-haired boy like Stockwell) but a sensitive boy like Dean (rather than the prig they picked) would have really sent Mark over the edge in my eyes as being insensitive.

     

    Yes but you could believe it with a Henreid and Davis, or even a MacMurray and Stanwyck. Redgrave wasn't exciting and seemed to lack any redeeming qualities yet Bennett gets all excited.

     

    Very very true. You caught me. I want my faves. (MacMurray...naaaah, Louis Jourdan, mais oui!)

     

    You let me know about the comedy. You pick. I'll try and express myself as grown-up as you do.

    Gloria Grahame a complete package

    in Your Favorites

    Posted

    No ma'am, you didn't. Not at all. My feet are fine. I'm just running from Michael Redgrave. Besides, I've got nothing better to do while I wait for my ship to come in. Give me a little time. Talking about "Secret Beyond the Door" probably upped my post count from 10,039 to 12,238 and decreased my audience to about one.

    Focus on Fritz Lang

    in Films and Filmmakers

    Posted

    I thought the film was absolutely fascinating.

     

    Ha there you go Grimesey...swimming upstream again.

     

    It's definitely the most "Hitchcockian" of Lang's films. It's Rebecca, for sure, plus "Spellbound" and even some Notorious. You're also right to mention "Dragonwyck"

    and I'd say "Jane Eyre" and "The Spiral Staircase", too.

     

    I really wish I knew enough about Lang to speak fluently about him, but I?d agree that all the other films you cited certainly reared their heads in ?Secret Beyond the Door.? Maybe Lang should have stuck to just one...

     

    Interestingly, Michael Redgrave reminded me of Alec Baldwin.

     

    Hmmmm.

     

    Hmmmm.

     

    It's the most psychological of Lang's films. I loved that. It's also one of the most "female" of Lang's films. It makes some interesting comments about love and marriage.

     

    I wonder if I was scared in the womb by Fritz Lang and that?s why I never married. If this is his idea of love and marriage...I'm joining a convent.

     

    And all three of those Hitchcock films feature a woman as the primary lead. Plus we get Hitchcock's famous "mommy issues," which he would powerfully bring forth with his

    "Mother" trilogy in the early-60s.

     

    Excellent put, Frank.

     

    Lang kind of mixes the female and male dynamics in the film and this makes for a messy end. From the female point of view, I think the film is rather fascinating. Who is it that you love? Do you know when you marry? Did you make the right choice? Lots of female fears.

     

    Gee, I just don?t know if this was literately-realized by the screenwriter. Those fears can be allevi-ated with lots and lots of conversations and social interactions between lovers. We might never ever really get to know some one 100% intimately, but at the skimming superficial beginnings of things, let?s open with finding out if he?s got any kids or murder room fetishes. I think that'd be a swell start.

     

    The film is mostly metaphorical. If you think "opening a door" means opening a door, you will hate this film.

     

    I hope I can be as metaphorical as the next buff, but sometimes some things just oughta make sense, no? Maybe if the secret was revealed more fantastically, I wouldn?t mind Celia wanting to run through all those musty psychological doors of Mark?s.

     

    The "Spellbound" angle is in the woman falling for a man with a hidden secret. Can she help him conquer what is conquering him? It's the mind as a maze.

     

    Again, well put. And I understand that. Some women like a helpless man they can help. Some women want an open and honest relationship; they don?t need to ?Mother? anyone. Probably

    best to be upfront with the woman you?re with, so you can get the woman you want.

     

    ...I thought he physically reminded me of Alec but also his delivery seemed similar.

     

    I didn?t see any similarity between Baldwin and Redgrave...physically or persona-wise.

     

    The pay-off isn't the greatest. Even "Spellbound's" pay-off isn't the best, at least with what's upset-ting John (Gregory Peck). What I liked the most is what Celia has to conquer, herself. I'm pretty sure you will understand what I'm talking about when you watch it. But I do sug-

    gest paying attention to her and her side of the story. It's really about her just as much as it's about him. And that is definitely "Spellbound"-esque. "Suspicion" is also similar, but it tends to be on the opposite side of the spectrum of "Spellbound." In this regard, you're gonna get an In a Lonely Place vibe, too. I'm very confident that you will see what I'm talking about.

     

    WoW!! My surface knee jerk response would be you?re really throwing a bunch of movies up against the wall to see which one will stick. But I know you've given this much thought. And I

    like the way your mind works.?In A Lonely Place???? The lesson there is ?don?t lie.? Celia might

    have felt differently if Mark had gotten his fingers around her pretty little neck like Dixon did.

     

    I was thinking Celia felt something inside of her was telling her that Mark is her guy. "He's the one." So, I am agreeing with you, I believe it was an infatuation. They didn't build love, they jumped off a cliff into love.

     

    That made me laugh. Make sure there's water in that abyss, I say. Mark might?ve been some type of project for her. Hey, is Celia really Melanie Daniels...international playgirl?

     

    I can definitely understand that. Mark isn't the most comforting of men. He really doesn't invite Celia into his life even though they are married. He's withholding from her. She has to sneak around to find out the answers. Lots of trust issues.

     

    I also think that withholding can be one person's way of controlling another.

     

    ...They both found themselves in a passionate setting and it heightened their own passions. It was dangerous. Dangerous love, really. Notice how Celia doesn't wish to leave the dangerous situation and how she reacts to a knife coming dangerously close to her. She's drawn to this. There are many women like her.

     

    I believe that about the settings. It brought me back to the Bahamas for many a weekends long long ago. But re Celia, is that the kind of girl you bring home to Mom? Is that the girl you want to be the mother to your kids? Is that the kind of girl you want as part of your carpool? You know, maybe I?d bought it more if Robert Ryan were playing Mark. He can go hot and cold and loving and crazy in one fell swoop. Now there's a guy you'd want to know; there's a guy you'd want to figure out...well, at least up until the Cook's tour.

     

    She doesn't know. It's all about trust. I believe she feels as if she can finally trust him and trust herself.

     

    Trust herself? What does she have to trust herself about? I wonder if she just didn?t want to get to the bottom of ?what?s the matter with my husband? more than anything else. Awwww, what do I know.

     

    But I also loved the entire game Celia plays with LOCKING the door. Her intentions weren't cruel, but it was still a game. She was controlling him. Why must you lock us loving gentle-

    man out?! Don't you trust us?

     

    I don?t think she was really controlling him. (I do realize you?re just kidding). I think she was play-

    fully teasing him. What?s wrong with you loving gentlemen? I know one Rhett Butler who let no locked door stop him. Why don?t you guys work at getting us?

     

    ...I also believe the film is about a parent remarrying and the issues and "baggage" that comes with that.

     

    That?s a little of a stretch for me, but alright. Well the movie solved that, didn?t they? Send the kid to boarding school. Problem solved. (He?ll grow up to be Ben Gazzara in that military school movie where he played --Whacko-- Jocko????)

     

    Women run from their fears while some men look to kill theirs. I believe Mark's fear is that Celia is going to end up like Eleanor and will treat him like his mom and Caroline have treated him. He's scared of her, despite his loving her.

     

    Aye yi yi Freud-sy. What are you guys so scared of? You oughtn?t let yourself be scared of a little old kid like that!

     

    That is very "Marnie," by the way. You are right. And this also tells me about the difficulty of a single mother who may be looking for love. The child is placed in a tough spot. The mother is choosing the love of someone else... some of the time.

     

    Very very interesting, Frank. Food for thought. When do women have their own lives to themselves.

     

    I think Lang is saying that love is thrilling but also frightening (marriage) in many respects. How sure are we? Both man and woman have their fears with this.

     

    I?d be scared to be married to Lang. But I think openness and honesty will out and assuage many fears.

     

    You know, Mark makes me think of Ashley Wilkes a little. Unable to really tell Scarlett the plain unvarnished truth. ?I?m in love with Melanie. And I also was locked in the closet with Mammy.? Come clean all you Ashley Wilkes of the TCM Message Board.

     

    Geez, how psychological was Hitch? Yeah, there is a reason why he's my favorite.

     

    Miss Goddess responds: I prefer Hitch.

     

    I, too prefer Hitchcock. He is methodical in his plotting out plot holes (in most of his films. I?m not crazy about ?Stage Fright? though). Hitch's attention to detail leaves very few wiggle room for illogic.

     

    I think there are quite a few women who find themselves wondering if their man loves them.

     

    I?m sorry to hear that. What an unsettling state that must be to live in.

     

    Mark: ?As intelligence improves, instinct withers away. We become over-civilized, inhibited.?

     

    Mark is actually complimenting Celia and woman but I know many women wouldn't take it as a compliment.

     

    Please sir, may I have another back-handed compliment? Nothankyouverymuch.

     

    The easy way out of anything is to run from it. If you are to commit yourself to another in marriage, you would hope they would be willing to stick it out when things got tough. Celia

    is a runner. Mark is a runner.

     

    I?ve married a man with murder rooms who also didn?t tell me he had a kid? YIKES!!! Feets do yo? stuff!!!

    Focus on Fritz Lang

    in Films and Filmmakers

    Posted

    I did see the part where she first laid eyes on Redgrave, and I remember thinking she looked a little kooky, all mesmerized and spellbound, and that Redgrave wasn't my idea of the kind of man to inspire that degree of intense interest from so beautiful a woman...unless she's as crazy as him.

     

    I think you?ve totally hit the nail on the head here, Miss G.

     

    (No, I don't hate Alec Baldwin! I'm just not attracted to either though, Alec has A LOT more going for him than Mikey)

     

    Might I recommend ?Prelude to a Kiss? ?Malice? ?Heaven?s Prisoners? ?Glengarry Glen Ross? for you to check out? You may still not care for him, but at least you can say you've seen him in some-

    thing. He was quite attractive when he was young, and I believe he?s grown into a fine character actor.

     

    I'm interested in how he presents her basis for being attracted to such a man in the first place. I saw enough of their initial meeting to be very surprised. The whole knife fight, Joan's narration about the fights she's seen compared to this one, and then her fixation on Redgrave seemed unusual. I'm just wondering how Lang will set this up. Will we understand why she felt as she did? Or is he indicating she was a bit crazy herself from the start.

     

    This is great you brought this up in the beginning of your exploration of this film...it?ll be interesting to see how your discovery plays out. Sometimes I want things grounded in a little bit of reality before the wheels fall off the wagon. By the end of the film, I still felt I never understood what she saw in him in the first place. But she did fight for him...and according to your board arch-frenemy, she fought for herself as well. (That I didn't get but I'll ask Grimesy about that myself in a little bit).

     

    Well I finally finished watching "Secret Beyond the Door." It was very interesting but left me with mixed reactions. I agree it's very Hitchcockian. The Hitch film I was most reminded of, after Spellbound, was Marnie. Only Mark wasn't "Mark" in Marnie, Mark in Secret was "Marnie". If that makes sense. "First there are the three taps..." The flowers, "Oh, we can stand gladiolas!".

     

    Ha ha, ?Marnie? is right on. He went off into trances, he omitted truths about his life. He had a trauma in his past, just like Marnie. ACK! What a trauma. Locked in his room while Mom went

    on a date. Meh!

     

    And I'm afraid I can't stand Mark. And NOT because of the actor. It's the character I feel no sympathy for.

     

    But didn?t you see he kept the little injured doggie in his room?? More than Johnny Eager might do initially. I think there?s just a stiffness with many British actors. He did a fantastic job in ?Dead of Night.? Crazy eyes.

     

    I'm still thinking over the setting of how they met. It's as if watching that fight over the woman set Celia on a certain track or put her in a state of mind that made her react in an exaggerated way to Mark's presence and attention. Both of them were excited by what they saw not just in the fight, but in the reaction to the fight in the each other. That's what makes me think they don't have a real foundation for their marriage. Also, she was desperate to fall in love in a dramatic way and I can totally understand that.

     

    Wonderfully said. Their spontaneous combustion wasn?t believable in a sexual way but in a psychological way. It made me think of ?Gun Crazy? though it was obvious that guns is what those two crazy kids had in common. There?s a lot in what you say here: ? Also, she was desperate to fall in love in a dramatic way...? Bob was too youthful and stable. Probably not the Mr. Excitement she needed. And after that moniker of SquarePants you gave him...he's done. (Ha!)

     

    What do you think was the purpose of the Mrs. Robie (Barbara O'Neil) character?

     

    Frank Grimes responds: Great question! This is the character that really has me spinning. Mark has a problem with female power over him yet he's constantly leaning on them. Is Mrs. Robie his safety blanket? The entire perceived "flaw" is such a fascinating twist. Is she afraid Mark keeps her around only because of her disfigurement and she only wishes to be near him? What an interesting character and subplot.

     

    Here is another woman whose love is not returned by Mark and she (too) is masochistic enough to stay. She?s a surrogate wife, by being the Secretary. She can tend to all but his conjugal needs, which he can not fulfill anyway.

     

    It's like we're being asked do you listen to your heart or your head in these instances.

     

    I think using both head and heart in tandem might be the most successful route to go.

     

    I actually am inclined to agree that she did just get sick and died, though it's a bit far fetched to me that she died just because he didn't love her. I think maybe that was metaphorical, too. Somehow, he neglected her so much, including her health, that it killed her.

     

    I?m thinking too much metaphor spoils the soup.

     

    ...All of a sudden, all these movies about women married to scary men!

     

    It?s the economy.

     

    But why does she decide to trust him? Nothing's changed, he still has murder rooms, he still treats his child like a pariah, he still moved to a separate bedroom, or presumably they always had separate rooms but were sleeping together before; AND he did come at her with that scarf! I just wonder how she can be so sure that this man who's nothing like she thought and who is coming at her with a scarf to kill her is really not going to kill her. She seems to believe even if tries, he's not truly capable of killing. I think given the murder rooms he is capable. It's not the same thing as being married to a screenwriter who writes about murder.

     

    Nice the way you listed those suppositions. This may really be a flaw in the screennplay, but some how I think Hitch is so clever, and worked so closely with his writers...that he?d plug up all those plot holes and give us something to really chew on.

     

    By the way...the kid was a pariah. (He?s no Dean Stockwell. Maybe a stuck up young Skip Homeier??)

     

    Can only sickly, crazy or damaged women love a man like Mark? That's what I think! :D

     

    Okay...let that be a lesson for all of us.

     

    Since neither Lang nor the others involved were happy with the movie, I wonder what he would have changed about it, if he could? I bet he'd have ended it more tragically. For once, I wish he had.

     

    With Celia?s death or Mark?s?

     

    The same thing happens in "In a Lonely Place." Dixon overreacts to being locked out. But Dixon's reaction doesn't repel me like Mark's does. Why? Because Dixon is so transparent, his reactions are naked and you know exactly what he's thinking and feeling...he can't hide. ALL Mark does is hide, hide, hide. That drives me NUTS.

     

    Let that be a lesson, boys. NO HIDING!! Get outta those bushes guys!!

     

    In fact, notice how Lang shows David standing and towering over her while she's seated. You get the feeling David knows the whole score. My word, he even knows HER better than her own husband does. No wonder they want to get rid of him. :D

     

    Ha ha!

     

    And did you notice even before, she didn't really seek out David? She just sort of stumbled over him. There she was, spending the whole day spreading her clothes all over her room instead of get-ting to the bottom of who and where was this kid that suddenly popped into her life.

     

    I look crazy here at City Hall?s Starbucks chuckling at your words. Quit it will ya. A socialite?s gotta be well-dressed before she learns her husband?s secrets.

     

    What I also believe is that Lang did not quite pull it off....the movie is flawed in its execution, if not conception. If I had to point to its weakest point, for me it's not even Mark's unlikability, it's the ending. Not the idea of a fire and all that, but how long it took him to get them out of there...I thought for a minute Joan was going to have to rescue HIM when he fainted first. Sheesh!

     

    Again...HA! For me, when sister Carrie says she locked him in his room...and then the revelation turned out to be that he was locked in his room I had to re-wind b?cuz I thought I?d missed some- thing. What a let down the way it was revealed. If I were Celia, I would have strangled him and run away and as I passed Miss Robey I?d have screamed: ?You can have him!!!!!!

     

    In that respect, Rebecca ended better with Mrs. Danvers roasting with her inner demons.

     

    HA!!! Christ, I?m getting stares at Starbucks!

     

    ...I would never, ever be remotely drawn to such cold, prissy fish like Mark. She did made her bed and now has to lie (die) in it.

     

    Or in a hammock too.

     

    How excited is it to be constantly rejected? Is it really love when it's based on the stimulation of fear, rejection and danger? Lang ignores those questions.

     

    And so does Grimesy.

     

    He even condescended about her inability to think because she was a woman. He seems to really dislike women. I know, I know, he has control issues, but he doesn't seem to like them at all. Or children. Cold.

     

    He did like the little doggie though.

     

    Did you notice the only really nice thing we ever see Mark do is that bit with the dog? That felt a little forced, like Lang realizing that when Celia says "He could be so kind", the audience wasn't going to buy it unless he gave a demonstration.

     

    Uh-oh, there goes my theory...to the dogs. (Arf!)

     

    There are many who believe rejection is the greatest aphrodisiac.

     

    Frank Grimes replies: It can be. It really can be.

     

    Me...I?m trying to break myself of that habit if I want to live happily and healthily ever after.

     

    Joan makes it look cute to be a mess.

     

    So did Gene in ?SHANGHAI GESTURE.? But Mark is no Dr. Omar.

    Focus on Fritz Lang

    in Films and Filmmakers

    Posted

    First things first, Joan's soft deep voice was nearly impossible for me to hear during the narration. It was a cause of major stress for me.

     

    Uh-oh, that doesn?t bode well.

     

    The biggest flaw for me was that there was little evident motivation for Celia's attraction to Mark. He was more irritating than exciting.

     

    That might be one of the major lynchpins in this whole thing, MadHat. If Mrs. Thurston Howell the Third weren?t so daffily preoccupied, I know over tea she?d have said to Celia:

     

    "Darling, what do you see in him? He?s a ghastly prude and oddly distant.?

     

    I don't think she was truly looking for security but stimulation, and strangely enough she finds it in Mark.

     

    I go with that Molo. She was rich, se had security. What?s left??? Excitement. All socialites like that Paris Hilton, Melanie Daniels (mis-characterized by jumping into an Italian fountain).

     

    Or is it more about her inner fears of being alone, of failure and of no sense of place? Or is it something else? :)

     

    Hold on now MadHat, you?re going to pose unanswerable questions too???

     

    I thought that was interesting in that she has been given the keys, (A means to escape) and then she goes running out of the house and ends up lost in the fog. This is a classic anxiety scenario that often plays out in dreams. (hopefully that's not just me :))

     

    Your revelations are safe with us Molo. No hiding. See, you?ll be up on your poor paralyzed little legs before the next page. Go on.

     

    So am I totally off kilter myself with this whole film as dream kick?... I'm going back to my comedies. Life is simpler there. :D

     

    Your theory is just as good as any. Is it you and I that were supposed to talk about comedy? I forget. I make so many promises.

     

    The chemistry that may hold them together in love is made up out of words, never shown in what we actually see between them.

     

    You know, I think that happened a lot in the writing of films of the 1930?s and 1940?s. Two big stars meet hook up and KA-BLOOOOEY!!! they?re passionately in love. How? When? He just lit her ciga-

    rette...they?re off to Connecticut?? Ohhhhhhhhhhhkay. The suspenders of my disbelief sometimes snap me on the back of the neck.

     

    OUCH!

    * Mark doesn't tell Celia about being married before.

    * He doesn't tell her that he has a son.

    * He lies about his business and finances.

    * He didn't love his first wife.

    * He doesn't seem to have any interest in resolving the situation with his own son.

    * He ignores Celia for the most part, almost the second they are married.

    * He likes collecting rooms where women have been murdered.

    * Finally, Celia discovers that he wants to kill her!

     

    I don't know anything about divorce laws in New York but I think Celia would definitely have a case.

     

    And THAT (in a nutshell) is ?Secret Beyond the Door.? And I do mean NUTshell. You got it down to its succinct points.

     

    Then she's left alone out there in the dark. Holding her gas can!

     

    I'm at Starbucks now reading and writing and laughing. Very funny! Uh-oh, people are watching me.

     

    Miss Goddess writes: Ha! No, no noooo! You know Gloria likes it on the noir side honey, so you can never resist....never resist....never resist....is the spell working?

     

    Molo responds: Yes okay. I'll stay..I'll stay...I'll stay. :D

     

    So THAT?s how its done Miss Goddess. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

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