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[FrankGrimes] -- <> I can't disagree. As a college philosphy prof of mine (yes, it was post-Socrates) said: "There are very few Truths. Everything else is a trivial matter of taste...and there's no accounting for taste." Or, as Johnny Clay put it more succinctly, "Eh, what's the difference." With so many films lost, and so many others unseen, "best" and "greatest" is a matter of taste, access, and the cultural prism we watch the movies through. That's why I try to stick to "favorite". P.S. *Citizen Kane* is the greatest film ever made. So there.

Although James Stewart is #1 in my book, Robert Ryan is coming on fast to pass Robert Mitchum as #2. Keep posting.

I hope that I don't end up eating my words (again) when I physically see it, but I picked up a one-sheet for *Nightfall* (among others, including *One Minute to Zero* ) yesterday at an auction. In VG shape. Cost: $0.99. There is a God.

Eliminating gifts and movies I love but that don't have any special features, I'll go with: *Film Noir Classic Collection* (w/ *Gun Crazy* & more) *Val Lewton Collection* (w/ *Cat People* & more) *M* *Pickup on South Street* *F Is for Fake*

I'm with you regarding *Laura* , but I'm going to go back to it soon for the fourth time and see if it's me or them. As to *Citizen Kane* , to quote FrankGrimes, "Go to your room right now." It can get tiresome to hear "It's the greatest movie of all time!" so often that it sounds like a mindless mantra (my reaction to "Hitchcock is the Master!"). Jonathan Rosenbaum doesn't even vote for it in the Sight & Sound poll because he assumes it'll win without his vote. Who knows if it's the "greatest", but it is my favorite and, along with Dreyer's *The Passion of Joan of Arc* , the movie I feel most passionate about. You like comedy? It has some very funny dialog. You like melodrama? Got it. Musicals? Very amusing song & dance. War movies? Got some of that. Political intrigue? Sure. Romance? Yep. Straight drama? Oh, yeah. Film noir? Absolutely. I cannot think of another movie that has aspects of so many types of film [and] holds them together seamlessly as *Citizen Kane* . Technical aspects: Greg Toland's camera and lighting is a joy. Deep focus, shadows, rooms with ceilings to add claustrophobia to the mix. Was it the first to do this? Probably not, just as Griffith may not have been the first to do many of the things he's credited for, but Welles pulls it all together with... Theme: Welles (and Mankiewicz) tells a story of a person from several literal and figurative angles. On the surface it's the rise and fall of a great man. But underneath, it's about everyone of us: the cycles of our lives, how others perceive us, how others choose to remember us, our sense of accomplishment, and our sense of loss. Add to that the backstory of intrigue in filming it and getting it released, and that it was Welles first feature film. I realize that those matters should be irrelevant to an objective appraisal of the movie, but they've become part and parcel of the film itself. Don't quit on *Citizen Kane* -- one can quibble about whether it's the "greatest", but it sure is up there.

You make a good point, Edgecliff, but the set that has my heart aflutter is being released in November: *Charles Burnett Collection* , which has *Killer of Sheep* (1977), *My Brother's Wedding: Director's Cut* (1983), and three shorts, *Several Friends* (1969), *The Horse* (1973), and *When It Rains* (1995). *Killer of Sheep* is the only one of the above that I've seen, and it is bubbling under my Top 10 favorite movies that I've ever seen. I'll rush out and buy the set in January if nobody in my family wants my eternal love by getting it for me for Christmas.

LuckyDan is right if the movie had both Michael York & Marty Feldman. *Yellowbeard* had Marty Feldman and [susannah] York. Or there's *The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes' Smarter Brother* with Marty Feldman and Gene Wilder. Or there's *Cheech & Chong's The Corsican Brothers* -- no Feldmans or Yorks, but plenty of Chongs & Marins.

"important": of great weight in meaning, significance or consequence. Not necessarily "great" (or even "good") or "favorite", and the "great weight" may be for good or ill. There are hundreds of movies that are "important", whether personally, historically or sociologically. What are your nominees and why? My first nominees of relatively recent vintage are: *The Blackboard Jungle* (1955) -- "(We're Gonna) Rock Around the Clock" by Bill Haley & the Comets is released in 1954 and spends one week in the Top 40 in May. Then *The Blackboard Jungle* is released with the song playing over the opening credits, and the record hits #1 on the pop chart in July 1955. It is probably the first mainstream movie to use a rock'n'roll song, and the record is the first rock'n'roll record to be #1 on the pop chart, thereby changing movie soundtracks, music marketing strategy and legitimizing rock'n'roll in popular culture (depending on one's view, either ending rock'n'roll as a music of rebellion or starting the rock culture). *Easy Rider* (1969) -- Sex, drugs, & rock'n'roll + bikers & a clash between hip and straight society. All the necessary ingredients for a standard exploitation movie. But this one is taken seriously (though not necessarily positively) by the mainstream media and makes small independent productions more feasible. And it unleashed Jack Nicholson. *Midnight Cowboy* (1969) -- An "X" rating was supposed to keep people away because of tawdry associations with "XXX". Wins the Oscar for Best Movie, shows that there is a market for "adult" content, and causes reconsideration of the rating biz. And the ending is, for me, still one of the most poignant ever. *Deep Throat* (1972) -- *I, A Woman* (1965) and *I Am Curious (Yellow)* (1967) were key precursors, but Europeans were expected by the U.S. viewers to be more "sophisticated." The nudie-cuties of Russ Meyer, Doris Wishman, et al were consigned to the "art" houses for male viewers (for a quick fun read on how sexploitation and "art" houses used each other, including a hilarious account of how Ingmar Bergman films were first distributed in the U.S., see "A Youth in Babylon: Confessions of a Trash-Film King" by David F. Friedman). *Deep Throat* was written about in the mainstream media. Good grief, three years later there were reviews of porn movies and an interview with Georgina Spelvin (*The Devil in Miss Jones*) in the South Bend Tribune. If that's not a seismic shift in general tolerance, if not acceptance, of heretofore sleazy movies, I don't know what is. For good or ill, society changed. *Jaws* (1975) -- Ushered in the perceived need for summer blockbusters. It has been difficult ever since for me to muster up the will power to see a new-release in the summer. And it unleashed Steven Spielberg. *Star Wars: Episode 4 - A New Hope* (1977) -- Takes special effects and cross-marketing to new heights (or depths). And it unleashed the Lucas Empire.

*Night of the Hunter* *He Walked by Night* *Clash by Night*

I would say *Rashomon* but that's more of an Eastern than a Western.

To quote Mr. Spock: "Fascinating." I posted this morning, but it got lost in cyberspace. So I re-posted this afternoon and when I hit "Post Message", both appeared. Sorry for repeating myself in the posts -- but it's not totally due to old age or too many martinis.

[MissGoddess] -- Standard discussion in this household: I start it off with, "Do you want to watch a movie tonight?" Her usual response is, "Sure. But can it be something light and funny or romantic? I want to be entertained." My reply is, "Great! Do you want to watch *Double Indemnity* or *Sunset Boulevard* or *Gun Crazy* ?" Then we watch re-runs of "Everybody Loves Raymond." That said, one of her favorite movies is *Mean Streets* -- there is no accounting for taste. I hope you don't hate me forever if *The King of Comedy* viewing is a disaster. It is dark. And it gets deeper every time I watch it. Thanks for the encouraging words and recommendations for my Ford viewing. That's reason I started this goofy thread. [FrankGrimes] -- David Lean, huh? Interesting. I, too, am predisposed to not watch epics. I'm with Hitchcock's philosophy that no movie should be longer than the endurance of the human bladder. If it can't be said in 90 minutes, why say it? Maybe that's why I like film noir. However, my two favorite epics -- *Lawrence of Arabia* and *Dr. Zhivago* -- are his. They are just sooo beautiful. Then about two years ago in a fit of ****, given my aversion to Dickens since high school, I watched *Great Expectations* and really liked it, atmospheric to the max. Then I saw *Brief Encounter* and saw Lean in a different light (kinda like when I found out Robert Wise made movies in the '40s & '50s and maybe shouldn't be damned just because of *The Sound of Music* ). So it goes. *Dr. Zhivago* & *Brief Encounter* -- see, I do have a romantic streak.

Frank: "I thought you were asking if there are any directors that you don't like their ability as directors versus their canon." I may have misused "canon". Maybe "pantheon" would have been more appropriate. Hey, I respect just about anyone that directs a movie; however, there are some directors who it seems everyone else considers a giant, but for some reason I don't connect with several of their films -- even if I love some of their movies (Ford probably being the most glaring non-faux example). So, MissGoddess, I have greatly welcomed your words of encouragement re: Ford and your recommendations. "I'm not sure Miss G will like it [ *The King of Comedy* ]. It's very dark and unromantic." Aw-oh. I still haven't figured out posters' tastes yet. If that's the case, MissG, I apologize in advance -- but please see it anyway. I'm used to differing tastes & the repercussions. When I ask my wonderful wife if she's up for watching a movie, her standard response is, "Sure, if it's something light, breezy & funny, or romantic. I want to be entertained," and I reply with all love and sincerity, "Great! Do you want to watch *Double Indemnity* , *Sunset Boulevard* , or *Gun Crazy* ?" So we watch "Everybody Loves Raymond" re-runs. Stanley Kubrick is an interesting case for me. He's in my pantheon of directors even though a couple of his films ( *The Shining* and *Full Metal Jacket* ) don't do much for me. I adore all of his other films (I count *A.I.: Artificial Intelligence* , but haven't seen the movie before *Killer's Kiss* ), often for different reasons, which why I find him so fascinating. I'm not sure I "get" *2001: A Space Odyssey* but I sure love to look at it. Off to Facets to see if it has *The Story of G.I. Joe* , *Pursued* , *Blood on the Moon* and *The Big Steal* . Mitchum + Wellman, Walsh, Wise & Siegel = romantic comedy (for one of us in this household).

MissGoddess -- Yes, indeed, Jerry Lewis can be a tough sell. It also has Sandra Bernhard who can be a tough sell. But *The King of Comedy* is definitely worth a peek. *Raging Bull* is probably my favorite Scorsese, but *The King of Comedy* comes close. Lewis' performance is wonderful because it plays off of the perception that the audience already has of him when he's not "on". Sandra always makes me smile, and she too plays a character that makes one wonder whether much "acting" was involved. DeNiro is a frightening bad dream. It's all about the concept of "self" and whether a "self" even exists. I still haven't gotten around to seeing *Boxcar Bertha* , *Kundun* , *Bringing Out the Dead* and *The Departed* (even though I own a copy), but I know I will. So please ease me into John Ford. I've seen: *Wee Willie Winkie* (OK, that was my favorite Shirley Temple movie as a kid) *Stagecoach* *The Grapes of Wrath* *How Green Was My Valley* *They Were Expendable* *My Darling Clementine* *She Wore a Yellow Ribbon* *The Quiet Man* *Mr. Roberts* *The Searchers* (like this alot) *The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance* (like this alot) *How the West Was Won* As I said, I don't dislike any of them, but I generally was not bowled over either. Recommendations on others that that may flip me, or suggestions on how to rewatch any of the above?

Orson & Marlene together -- priceless. And what a great photo of Elisha Cook. And, for the record, I'll go out on a limb and state unequivocally that Veronica Lake is attractive.

FrankGrimes -- You're on to me. The best discussion -- and learning -- does come from healthy (and sometimes faux) disagreement. That's how my appreciation of Bresson, Fuller, Sirk & Preston Sturges turned 180 degrees. MissGoddess -- That's the spirit. I think it's inevitable that Scorsese will be, if not already, in the Canon. Have you tried *The King of Comedy* and *After Hours* -- wonderful dark acerbic modern noirs without any bloodletting (is that what you mean by "slaughterhouse style"?) worthy of -- dare I say it? -- Billy Wilder. And, *The King of Comedy* has one of those wonderful "aha!" moments that puts things into perspective: one time when Jerry Lewis walks into his apartment, he looks forlornly at the TV while *Pickup on South Street* is playing. Coen Bros & Tarantino, time & distance will tell. I generally like the Coen Bros' movies, esp. *Miller's Crossing* , *The Big Lebowski* and *Raising Arizona* , but I've never understood the fuss about *Fargo* , though I certainly can never dismiss any movie with Steve Buscemi (heir to Timothy Carey's crown?). Bergman -- as a friend who teaches film and, as I am, is prone to hyperbole to get a discussion started said, "Everyone should have a Bergman phase, and then outgrow it."

Each of us (at least I hope I'm not the only one) have a list of directors that we won't casually reveal -- those in the canon of GREAT directors (you know who they are) that just don't resonate with you. You try, watching their films, to embrace them because those whose opinions you respect invoke their names with awe and reverence. And you may love a few of their movies, but overall you're unmoved. Not that you hate their films, but worse -- they're just OK. "It must be me" or "I must be watching the wrong ones," so you stay silent. Confession time. Here's my "it must be me" list [note: because "it must be me", I have purposefully not used the term "overrated"]: 1. John Ford -- I hear the derisive laughter. I have tried ever since I heard Welles in the late-'60s or early-'70s tell Dick Cavett that his three favorite directors were "John Ford, John Ford, and John Ford." I love *The Searchers* and *The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance* , then I'm left flat. Sigh. 2. Robert Altman -- I like *McCabe and Mrs. Miller* alot. I liked *Come Back to the Five & Dime Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean* when it came out. *Thieves Like Us* was enjoyable. But *M.A.S.H* is occasionally amusing to me at most. I've worked at *Nashville* and still don't get the hub-bub. The other 5 or 6 I've watched, blah. 3. Jean-Luc Godard -- Why, oh why, can't I be hip? If you confess, I promise not to ridicule you (unless your list includes Wilder, Welles, or Murnau -- then all bets are off).

*Rosemary's Baby* will always be the most frightening movie for me. The rest for Halloween... *The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari* (1919) *Vampyr* (1931) *Dracula* (1931) *Day of Wrath* (1943) *I Walked with a Zombie* (1943) *Invasion of the Body Snatchers* (1956) *Carnival of Souls* (1962) *God Told Me To* (1976) *Q (The Winged Serpent)* (1982)

May be *Five Graves to Cairo* with Franchot Tone, Anne Baxter, Erich von Stroheim & Akim Tamiroff, directed by Billy Wilder, written by Wilder & Charles Brackett, with cinematography by John Seitz (also did *Double Indemnity* , *The Lost Weekend* & *Sunset Boulevard* with Wilder), and music by Miklos Rozsa

Very impressive lineup. I finally saw *Ministry of Fear* yesterday and am now in a Lang mood. May have to soak up *M* this afternoon. Dear Mr. FrankGrimes: After your trip to Queens to fulfill your Langomania, if you still want more cheery movies from the chipper Teutons, save up for a swing by Chicago. Nov. 3, 4 -- *Fallen Angel* Nov. 9 -- *Laura* Nov. 10 -- *Bonjour Tristesse* & *Laura* (w/ Foster Hirsch) Nov. 11 -- *Bonjour Tristesse* & *Anatomy of a Murder* (w/ Foster Hirsch) Nov. 12 -- *Skidoo* (!!!) (w/ Foster Hirsch) Nov. 13 -- *Angel Face* (w/ Foster Hirsch, Jonathan Rosenbaum & Michael Wilmington) Nov. 14 -- *Bunny Lake Is Missing* (w/ Foster Hirsch) Nov. 15 -- *Advise and Consent* (w/ Foster Hirsch) Nov. 17 & 18 -- *Whirlpool* Nov. 24, 25 -- *Where the Sidewalk Ends* Dec. 1 & 2 -- *River of No Return* Yes, a mess'o Mr. Mise-en-scene. As a friend described it, "it's Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Kwanza rolled into one."

"Eh, what's the difference?"

Thank you, thank you, and thank you. And post as many more of the Marvelous Marlene as you wish.

Dear MissGoddess, Thank you for the picture of Betty-Baby-Slim. I believe I died and went to Heaven.

I had a post written earlier, but it got lost in cyberspace. It was quite profound, but lucky for you this one's shorter (believe it or not). Everyone has made excellent points. Some observations. The web, and related new technologies of production and distribution, is definitely killing cinema. Just as the advent of sound did, the advent of color did, TV did, VCRs did.... I have faith that, just as before, cinema will survive -- the look and experience has changed, and will continue to, but it will survive. Thirty years ago I would read about Carl Dreyer and Orson Welles and lament that I'd never get to see their films (other than *Citizen Kane*). Now I pull their films off of the shelf and watch whenever I want. Preferable to seeing them in 35mm on a big screen with other people? No, but definitely better than not seeing them at all. I wonder about Sir Ridley's 50/50 view of the past. An awful lot of drek used to get made, but we forget about it because...it was drek. Of course there are probably several gems that might have been lost, but that was largely due to the now hallowed producers of the surviving gems not taking preservation efforts, not due to dumb audiences or new technologies or bad directors. The flip side is that the new technologies enable the restoration and distribution of movies that otherwise would be lost and thereby generate new and larger audiences, more money and more likely ensure their survival. Should more be available, and available more cheaply? Sure. But in the meantime I won't bemoan (too much) the wealth of films that are available. Where's the new Griffith, deMille and Stroheim? Followed by Wilder, Hawks, and Welles. Followed by Cassavetes, Lynch, and Cronenberg. But where is the next group? Out there to be discovered. After all, who would have thought then that Samuel Fuller and Edgar Ulmer would be lionized today. Maybe living in Chicago makes me sanguine. There are two revival theatres within 6 blocks, one that has month long festivals devoted to silents four times a year. An arthouse theatre 20 minutes from me that has weekend matinees of "classic" movies (this month: *Alice Adams*, *The Passenger*, *Persona*, *Zabriskie Point*) and where our teenager saw *Rope* & *Strangers on a Train* this summer (and spoke to Farley Granger). Two universities within 30 minutes with active film societies that program "classic" cinema. The Gene Siskel Film Center with wonderful programming, including a 6 month long weekly film series on movies of the '50s & '60s hosted by Jonathan Rosenbaum (saw *The Steel Helmet* this week). Facets Multmedia with contemporary programming, a stupendous rental library, and a film school offering four different six week film classes at all times throughout the year (starting a class on the Westerns of Jacques Tourneur in a couple weeks). The Chicago International Film Festival is in October. Bela Tarr is at Facets next weekend. I thank the cinema gods everyday that these options are available...and they are growing as long people show interest...and these Boards renew my faith that the interest is there. And if unfortunately your options are not as varied as mine, I will gladly allow you to live vicariously through me. Will anyone float me a loan so that you can live more vicariously and better through me?

LuckyDan & FrankGrimes -- One-dimensional? Perhaps. I prefer the term "idiosyncratic". Applicable to both Hayden and Carey. Arkadin -- Accept my apology for straying off topic. Has anyone mentioned "Kansas City Confidential"?