Arturo

*I would have said that Robert Young was definitely A list, and is probably better remembered today, than the rest of them. Maybe it's just because of what TCM programs, but I feel like I've seen him in lots more lead roles . . .* VX: Okay I'll bump Young up to an A Minus. The reason I can't quite give him an A is because he was usually the leading man, supporting the female (and sometimes male also) STAR. Whether he is better remembered today, or whether more of his movies are featured on TCM, has nothing to do with how he ranked back in the day, which is what this thread posits. Also, he made more films than the others, so according to the law of averages, more will be shown on TCM. Plus, Ameche did most of his films for Fox, as did Payne during the peak of his stardom, which means that until recently, those movies were never shown on TCM-even now only sporadically. Young also was a big TV star for approximately 20 years, in more higher profile shows than Ameche. But Ameche was a bigger movie star, as well as a star on radio and on Broadway. And the late movie career success, which brought him to whole new audiences for about 10 years before his passing.

Even owning a Preston Sturges boxset, it's still a pleasure for me spending time with the Sturges movies, stars and stock company.

*This same thing happened again in 1982, having too many good movies being over shadowed by a great film. "ET The Extra-Terrestrial" took the award spotlight away from other good movies like "Bladerunner", "First Blood" and "Star Trek II".* *I wish ET was released in 1983 that was a more duller year (quality wise) and give the other films a better chance at the awards.* *"Citizen Kane" was the "ET" for 1941.* Actually, CITIZEN KANE did not take "the award spotight from other good movies...". It was NOT the ET for 1941, Oscar-wise.

*Ginnyfan wrote:* *I don't think you'd call either Ameche or Payne B list since they both got to work in Fox's bigger budget musical comedies.* GF, at the minimum all of these actors were leading men. They all had long careers in movies, often as handsome foils for women stars. Of course being in Fox' biggger budget musical comedies may mean you're just the leading man in same, and possibly wasted if you actually have more to offer. Ameche was by far the biggest movie star here. At the end of the 30s, and into the 40s, he was in the Top Twenty Boxoffice stars, per the exhibitors' polls. He had many strong roles, such as THE STORY OF ALEXANDE GRAHAM BELL, SWANEE RIVER, FOUR SONS. He probably does not rank higher now in people's perceptions, because he often lost the girl to Tyrone Power; this was 20th's version of MGM's Gable/Tracy type of two male stars competing fro the girl. In the 40s, he was good in the many musicals he was given, but of course, he was usually just doing leading man chores. The exception, as mentioned here, was THAT NIGHT IN RIO (itself a remake of 1935's FOLIES BERGERE). I believe that when his contrac was up at Fox in 1945, he chose to not re-sign, and established one of the first postwar personal production outfit. His career in films wound down in the late 40s, and he transitioned easily into TV in the 50s. But in the late 30s and throughoutthe 40s, he was a top ranked star. John Payne probably was the next biggest star, at which he finally arrived in the early 40s, soon after he was signed to Fox. Another foil for the women musical stars, he started this role out in parts originally meant for Power with Ameche. The Ameche role usully went to Jack Oakie. The first of these was TIN PAN ALLEY. His biggest hit on his own was probably TO THE SHORES OF TRIPOLI. By 1943, he had joined the ranks of male stars joinig the service. After the war, his career at Fox never quite got back on track. Always popular, he continued to be cast in musicals, as well as comedies. For some reason, he wasn't given any roles in the noirish dramas Fox was then producing. Probably his most dramatic role then was in SENTIMENTAL JOURNEY, a three hankie tearjerker. His contract was up in late 1947, and he chose not to re-sign. He carved out a decent career in medium budget dramas for the better part ofthe next two decades. Robert Young was mostly a leading man, but did get some starring opportunities, usually in programmers. One of his bette-known starring parts was in THEY WON'T BELIEVE ME. He didn'f come close to being a top star, but his amiable presence ensured he was busy until he moved over to bigger success on the small screen. Robert Cummings was another actor who was more leading man than star, and who later found more success in TV. So those that have been characterized as on the bland size here, seemed to do better on the smallscreen, than on the outsized movie screens. But movie careers lasting from the 3s to the 50s are nothing to sneer at. So, to rank as proposed here (and I'm no good at absolutes), I'd say the following: Ameche: A Payne: A- Young B+ Cummings B/B-

A rare showing of TWO FLAGS WEST will be on Fox Movie Channel this coming Monday, July 2, 2012 at 6:00 AM EST, and 3:00 AM PST, for those that might want to catch it. This will be followed by SIEGE AT RED RIVER and SIERRA BARON.

A rare showing of TWO FLAGS WEST will be on Fox Movie Channel this coming Monday, July 2, 2012 at 6:00 AM EST, and 3:00 AM PST, for those that might want to catch it.

While catching up on the Classic Film Criticism, I came across a discussion that made me think of starting this thread. There have been movies that have been released commercially under one title, then later under a different one. A good example of this is the 1951 comedy, YOU'RE IN THE NAVY NOW, which first came out as U.S.S. TEAKETTLE. Since it was doing poorly, 20th-Century Fox withdrew it from distribution, and shortly rereleased it as YIINN. Sometimes movies would be given new titles when sold for TV broadcast, or when it had been remade, to differentiate it from the successor movie. An example of this, although for much more sinister reasons, and accompanying a heavy editing job, was 1943's wartime drama NORTH STAR. Upon it's release, it would receive a smear job, mainly by the Hearst chain, as Soviet propaganda, and of course later came under attack by HUAC. When the heavily edited version appeared on TV, it was under the title of ARMORED ATTACK. Can anyone add other examples of these tactics? However, do not include titles that, for whatever myriad reasons, were changed when released in other (English-speaking) countries.

I really enjoyed the film, especially the performances of top-billed Sophia Loren and Anthony Perkins, considering I had already seen their work in the later noir-style thriller FIVE MILES TO MIDNIGHT. With this earlier effort, they are four years younger and *have yet to come into their own cinematically* (his Norman Bates was around the corner, and her Oscar for TWO WOMEN would occur shortly). Topbilled, a minor quibble with your use of the word 'cinematically" in this context, in relation to Sofia Loren. Since cinematically has everything to do with visuals, I think a better word might be "histrionically", because IMHO she came into her own cinematically from the moment she can be recognized onscreen. At least by the time the non-italian speaking world were introduced to her, she was a visual feast for the eyes lol.

Eleanor Parker is one of the essential stars of the 1940s and 50s IMHO. I love her in just about anything, from the grab-bag of assignments she was given at Warners in the 40s (culminating in CAGED of course), to the many big budget adventure films she did at MGM in the 50s. Some of my absolute favorite performances of hers include DETECTIVE STORY and LIZZIE. Even in that maligned attempt at a screwball comedy revival, A MILLIONAIRE FOR CHRISTY, has her positively glowing and desirable (even if the object of her affections is the underwhelming Fred MacMurray).

Snoods must've been around since at least the mid 19th century. Vivien Leigh as Scarlett O'Hara wore them; this is where their popularity in the early 1940s came from, I believe. Lana Turner wore them often whether filming or nightclubbing. Linda Darnell wore some supposedly homemade, handmade ones made of hemp (along with most of her fairly revealing wardrobe), while stranded on the ISLAND OF DESIRE, a 1952 movie that takes place during WW2. Edited by: Arturo on Jun 25, 2012 8:43 PM

Mitchum and Hayworth did work again in her last film in 1972 THE WRATH OF GOD a western that is shown from time to time on the ENCORE WESTERN CHANNEL. Forgot about that one...guess i was just thinking about teamings during the classic period,,,,

Irene Dunne and Rex Harrison: the sparring of minds and worldviews in the first version of the oft-told tale of ANNA AND THE KING OF SIAM was quite enjoyable. Of course, Rex' first stint in Hollywood would forcibly end within a couple of years, and Dunne would retire from the screen within six. Gene Tierney and Rex Harrison: probably one of the great unrequited love stories, THE GHOST AND MRS. MUIR, with both stars imparting just the right degree of chaste lovemaking, 40s style. They almost were costarred again (twice!), but Tierney turned down (or became pregnant or both) both THE FOXES OF HARROW and UNFAITHFULLY YOURS.

Humphrey Bogart and Katherine Hepburn: They were great in THE AFRICAN QUEEN; and although Bogie's days were numbered, might've been another memorable pairing. Cary Grant and Ann Sheridan: They even discussed doing another film, as their chemistry worked very well in one of the top hits of 1949, I WAS A MALE WAR BRIDE Rita Hayworth and Gene Kelly were a great dance team in COVER GIRL, where some of the innovative Kelly choreography was first in evidence. What a great team they made. Clark Gable and Vivien Leigh: A match made in boxoffice heaven; if only a story as compelling, if not necessarily as epic, as GWTW could have brought them together. Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid Bergman: Another reunion that fans longed for, as did WB. In the couple of years after CASABLANCA, several wartime melodramas were pencilled in for the pair, but none came to fruition. Robert Mitchum and Linda Darnell: Mitchum worked well when partnered with "broads", as when he was teamed more than once with Jane Greer, Susan Hayward and Jane Russell. Darnell was a worthy partner of this ilk in SECOND CHANCE. Robert Mitchum and Marilyn Monroe. Ditto . . . great chemistry in RIVER OF NO RETURN. Robert Mitchum and Rita Hayworth. Ditto . . . great chemistry in FIRE DOWN BELOW.

*Grant and Power were also flexible screen personalty/actors who seemed quite comfortable in a number of different genres.* Most of the major, and the not so major (or not considered such these days), stars from the era of the Hollywood studio system were expected to be versatile: besides those mentioned, the list of versatile action stars could include Clark Gable, Spencer Tracy, Robert Taylor, Warner Baxter, Gary Cooper, Joel McCrea, etc. Even Cagney and Bogart were assigned roles that ran the gamut of genres, although not always successfully. *Grant, in my opinion, is brilliant as a comedy/action star in Gunga Din. But that is one film only, hardly comparing to the slew of adventures Flynn was in. Nor did Grant play in westerns, of course (that flexible, he wasn't). As for war dramas, he only made one (Destination Tokyo). Again, this hardly makes him serious competition for Flynn in the action genre.* I think Flynn's versatility is exemplified by his success in numerous westerns. With his accent, it would seem that it wouldn't be an ideal fit, like Grant. However, after explaining the accent in the first one or two, none of the subsequent westerns with Flynn mentioned it. *Power, while very good in swashbuckling adventures (his Zorro performance is a pure joy), made only two westerns and one war drama. In my opionion he's okay he those efforts, but hardly makes the impression that Flynn did in They Died With Their Boots On or Objective Burma.* Broadly speaking, Power made more than two westerns: JESSE JAMES BRIGHAM YOUNG (-FRONTIERSMAN) RAWHIDE PONY SOLDIER And, the action packed KING OF THE KHYBER RIFLES and UNTAMED are westerns in all but location only. And broadly speaking, he made more than one war drama: A YANK IN THE R.A.F. THIS ABOVE ALL CRASH DIVE AMERICAN GUERRILLA IN THE PHILLIPINES

*I don't think he ever gave an Oscar-worthy performance.* Well, I think he could very well have been nominated for THE SUN ALSO RISES, TOO MUCH TOO SOON or THE ROOTS OF HEAVEN. Earlier, I think he could gotten a nomination for GENTLEMAN JIM, if the studio hadn't been campaigning so hard for Cagney and Bogart that year. Or even on loan for THAT FORSYTHE WOMAN. But at least in the earlier films, his image, and a certain pending trial, kept him from consideration. In the later ones, it was just assumed he was playing himself. I think one of the greatest tributes to his acting was paid to him, after the fact, by Bette Davis in one of her memoirs. During the filming of ELIZABETH AND ESSEX, she had been upset that he had been cast, having preferred Olivier. She thought that Flynn was all image and no substance. But, she stated that she saw the film many years later, and realized he was just right for the part, and that she had been wrong to denigrate his talent.

*So glad TCM isn't showing Robin Hood and the Sea Hawk. They're instead showing his lesser known films. Ones I haven't seen TCM show before.* Well, among the "lesser known films" showing are CHARGE OF THE LIGHT BRIGADE, DAWN PATROL, SANTA FE TRAIL and NORTHERN PURSUIT, all considered classics of their respective genres, and shown by TCM fairly frequently.

*I'm glad you mentioned SEPARATE TABLES. Kerr was great, but I believe she was nominated. Rita Hayworth was also great (her best performnace ever, IMHO), and was NOT nominated.* I agree that Rita should have been nominated along with Kerr. I also think Rita should have been nominated for the following year's THE STORY ON PAGE ONE, MY favorite for her best perfomance. And how about Gloria Grahame for IN A LONELY PLACE, and Bogie for his best IMHO.

My dad died when I was seven years old, so didn't have much opportunity to observe the type of movies he liked. I do know that he LOVED "DAMN YANKEES' . . . because he was a baseball nut, and had played in a minor league team in Mexico; or maybe he just liked Gwen Verdon. Everytime DAMN YANKEES would show on The Million Dollar Movie (or whichever program would show the same movie every night for a week), we would see it every night ( I used to be afraid of the "devil" RAy Walston). Both my oldest brother and I own that movie because of this exposure to it. We also used to see nightly LAND THAT TIME FORGOT or a similar title, about dinosaurs, but that might;ve been for the benefit of us kids. He used to jealous of my mom's idol, Mexican singer/actor Pedro Infante, and belittle his manhood. Edited by: Arturo on Jun 16, 2012 1:52 PM

There are so many that should have been nominated, at the least, and winning perhaps. Some of my overlooked favorites (hope they havent been mentioned yet): Joan Grawford in both STRANGE CARGO and A WOMAN'S FACE. Both these films helped her maintain her renewed career momentum she achieved by playing the villain in THE WOMEN. However, by the early 40s, her stock had fallen with the MGM bigwigs, and she was appalled as she saw her hope-for queen of the lot position go to Greer Garson, once both Garbo and Shearer eased out of moviemaking. Garson got all the studio's big promotional push for Oscar, and the prood is in the pudding. Gene Tierney in THE RAZOR'S EDGE. She is just as good as in LEAVE HER TO HEAVEN, and should have joined th list of nominees from that film. On the other hand, Ty Power's a-ha moment is poorly conveyed, probably because of the muddled writing in terms of the film's philosophy, so I don't think he was overlooked. However, I think Tyrone Power should have been nominated for THIS ABOVE ALL and NIGHTMARE ALLEY. With the latter, at the least, studio head Zanuck didn't believe in the film, and the double whammy of hundreds of fan letters prostesting their idol's seedy character, and the films boxoffice failure, made sure no oscar campaign was put in place for a Power nomiation. Edward G. Robinson, Susan Hayward and Richard Conte in HOUSE OF STRANGERS. All give excellent performances IMHO, in a taut melodrama that was curtailed in its showings (think the Giannini family of B of A applied pressure when they saw too many parallels with their rise in the banking world). Linda Darnell, Ann Sothern, Paul Douglas and Thelma Ritter in A LETTER TO THREE WIVES. Standouts in a generally outstanding cast . . . the studio probably didn't know who to focus on and push, although Darnell, as the studio's contract star, seems the logical one, in which case whether to push her for Best Actress or Best Supporting Actress would have been a concern. Linda Darnell, Richard Widmark and Sidney Poitier in NO WAY OUT. Linda should have been nominated for Best Actress, although 1950 was one very competitive year in that category. Widmark plays his most chilling hood since achieving stardom, and Poitier is excellent in his film debut. Too bad it came out the same year as ALL ABOUT EVE, and the studio chose to focus on the other Mankiewicz release. Loretta Young in CAUSE FOR ALARM. Probably her best performance IMHO, in a taut little thriller, which explains why it wasn't even considered. Marilyn Monroe in BUS STOP and THE MISFITS. It is mystifying to me that she was not even nominated for BUS STOP. Butthe studio's head was probably turned by the coup of getting Ingrid Bergman for ANASTASIA that all their big bucks went into that campaign. And in THE MISFITS, Marilyn had the bad press and the Gable tragedy that probably kept her from even being considered.

Well, as you can see by the replies, it ain't that rare, as TCM airs it occasionally. In fact they aired this one last year on June 8, along with many other titles shown yesterday, in what must be Alexis Smith's birthday tribute. And yes, the reason for its shelving is as was stated; and has nothing to do with the merits of the film.

Maybe, but I'll take Ava Gardner over Mary Martin any day . . .

Two Broadway shows that were filmed threw out their charming scores. Irma La Duse and Fanny. They only kept the music to underscore scenes and dialogue. You could say that was a crummy idea for these films. Im4movies2: Probaby done because in the early 60s, musicals were considered dead at the boxoffice. So producers must have felt that bringing these charming stories without the music would do hre trick...which did the trick, but I agree its a crummy idea.

Dargo, I'm the one who originally suggested that Lucy was not a sexpot, whereas Anita Ekberg was. I stand by this statement. Lucy did get cast as a sexy blonde early on, often as a chorine. She had those long sexy legs, and was beautiful. However, she did not obviously exude "sexy", which is the distinction I'm making. in the 30s she was sexy, as were many other girls (Ginger Rogers, Claudette Colbert, Frances Farmer, Madeleine Carroll, etc), but they were not sexpots, nor did producers view them thus: BUT Harlow was, Mae West was . . . In the 40s, Lucy was sexy in roles like BEST FOOT FORWARD or LURED, but she wa not a sexpot, nor did producers view her thus, nor did they of sexy Paulette Goddard, Dorothy Lamour, Betty Grable, etc: BUT Lana Turner was, Ava Gardner was, Jane Russell was . . . in the 50s, Lucy was still sexy, but as America's small-screen sweetheart, she was viewed even less as a sexpot, nor were the sexy Janet Leigh, Mitzi Gaynor, Ruth Roman, etc. BUT Marilyn was, Jayne Mansfield was, Gina Lollobrigida was, Silvana Mangano was, Sphia Loren was, Brigitte Bardot was, Anita Ekberg was. TopBilled wrote: My point was that Lucy created the role in FIVE CAME BACK, and when it was remade twenty years later, they found another actress who in some way resembled her. Just like with STAGE STRUCK, they cast Susan Strasberg who had some similarities to Kate. TB: Well, saying she created it is a stretch. She played the role in the first version of the movie; however, it was a stereotypical role that hd a long lineage that went well back to the early flickers. Again, Ekberg played the same role; this does not mean that they had hr copy Lucy, but that she too played the same role in the well worn wy it was usually played in movies.

Well, of course the role called for a sexy showgirl, in both the original and the remake. But other than that, Anita Ekberg was pure 50s sexpot (something Lucy never quite managed at any point in her long career). Many foreign actresses with this image in the 50s, with the notable exception of the Italian ones, tended to have long flowing manes: most notably Anita and Brigitte Bardot. NOTHING in that poster suggests Lucy to me.

*Composed by Paul Williams, at the time a well respected and successful songwriter in those days, he chose to write most of the tunes in a style I'll simply refer to as "mock ragtime", reminiscient of those Budweiser commercials of the day. But the biggest problem was that the producers(or someone)had the idea to have Williams do all of the VOCALS! I think he even did Foster's vocals.* I've never been a fan of Paul Williams, although he wrote some pleasant hits for the likes of the Carpenters. I also enjoyed him somewhat in PHANTOM OF THE PARADISE (although I can't recall THAT soundtrack for the life of me). I just *could not stand* his singing voice; he reminded me, in looks and singing, of a squat toad. So i agree that his singing in BUGSY MALONE was a hindrance to the enjoyment of that movie. The ragtime sounding soundtrack, while somewhat late for the period depicted, of course came by way of the successful "The Entertainer" the Scott Joplin rag recently revived for THE STING (incidentally on TCM tonight), which brought that style back into prominence for awhile.