JackFavell

This is all very interesting! I am really going to have to watch more of these movies just to keep up with you guys! Seven Men From Now is the movie I most want to see. I love Lee Marvin, and in looking up his movies, I think I actually saw a clip of this movie on youtube and posted it on the coffee thread a year ago. That scene in the wagon was so good, I couldn't get it out of my mind. Ro- I am trying really hard to appreciate the good ol' fashioned western. I think if all you guys have such a high opinion of them, I must have been missing something! But I really got caught by the Boetticher/Scott Ranown cycle, because everything I've read says that these are the kind of westerns that follow a different path. You know how much I like a story that leads me somewhere I have never been before. I want to be surprised by a movie, and so far, the Ranown westerns have done just that.

I definitely see a resemblance - though I had a hard time finding a serious, beardless picture of Spade.....

Chris - Oh, I loved that last line. You are right. A great closing sentence. Completely understated. clore - Good lines SHOULD be used often! I like that you know that it was in more than one movie.... The scenes with the well really got me - it brought me immediately into the reality of the situation. It's so gruesome, and yet nothing is shown. Boetticher lingers just a hair longer on the well than normal, he really was a genius there, not overdone..... and there is one last shot of the well as they ride off - from the "burial place". I kept imagining the next person to show up at that well.....eeek. Wouldn't it be great if filmmakers today had as much imagination?

I wonder if Gilbert had lived, would he have been able to re-invent himself? I think maybe he might have.... he had a great personality and was liked by most Hollywood insiders. He had other talents besides acting to fall back on, and he seems to me to have been a resilient person- having dealt with all the problems of his childhood. However, he had a few nasty habits - the drinking for instance. It's too bad his career was cut short at a low point. Maybe things would have changed a bit for him as movies became more sophisticated again. I like to think he would have come out of the doldrums he was in, making a comeback as a solid character actor like John Halliday, or as a writer or director......

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote} > What is interesting about Boone and Scott is the respect that Boone comes to have for Scott. He can't stand O'Sullivan's husband as he is too big a coward. > > You could almost see Boone and Scott as friends if Boone weren't completely who he was. It was like they shared some ideas and thoughts on life. > > Good film. Boone is one of the best bad guys. I like the banter Scott, Hubbard and Boone have.... Hubbard keeps getting called "the Talker" or the bandits say, "he's pretty talkie, ain't he?". Scott is so quiet you can't help but see the difference between them. And Boone is right in the middle.... I liked it when Boone asks Scott if he's scared, and Scott just says, "Yeah, I'm scared." Then Boone says something like "at least yer honest about it. I like you." I totally would have liked the movie even if Boone and Scott had ended up friends...... but it just couldn't end that way.... I loved Boone's character.... he told it like it was, but at heart he was corrupt, and he underestimated Scott. And that was the fatal flaw.... he didn't think Scott would kill him when confronted because Scott seemed too nice...... I was really confused at the beginning, especially the part where Scott lost his horse. I didn't realize it was just a setup for the rest of the movie.... but I did love that carefree attitude Scott had. He smiled all the way through those opening scenes, even when he socked that guy who kept making fun of him!

clore- interesting ramble on Smoky (or should I say, Smokies?) I have not seen any of them but you made me want to see at _least_one, even the 66 version.....I love Katy Jurado and just can't find enough movies with her in them... so thanks for mentioning her other roles. The only other ones I have seen are High Noon and One Eyed Jacks - and she is amazing in both. She is a very interesting person, having been an aristocrat, then becoming an actress. She never ever played second fiddle to anyone, and that is what I like about her. A strong woman..... I watched *The Tall T* last night, and found it very enjoyable. I like the way these Scott movies never go where you expect them to go. I then tried to stay awake for *Riding Lonesome*, but, as usual, I fell asleep. It just wasn't holding my interest like the other two Boetticher/Scott films I've seen so far. *Huge Spoilers Ahead - Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers* I especially enjoyed the depiction of a woman's "place" in the old west.... this isn't a good looking, fifties-hairdo-defying-the-breeze type of woman.... Doretta Mims is considered plain, even ugly (quite a feat for Maureen O'Sullivan to pull off. She did. Amazingly, I didn't even know it was she until I just looked it up on IMDB just now). Her husband has married her for her father's money. The husband, Willard Mims (played by John Hubbard), is as close to evil in this movie as any character can be in these strange westerns. Even the real villain, Frank Usher (Richard Boone) can't stand him.... he is so slimy, two-faced, and weak. In fact, he reminded me of some of the High Noon townspeople.... when it comes right down to it, you can't rely on this guy. Not only does he try to run away, leaving his wife to the murdering bandits; he LIES about the fact that he is doing it, trying to seem heroic. Then he figures that he will buy his freedom with his wife's money - "convincing" the outlaws to let him ride to town to set up a ransom for her. He is despicable, and the only one he fools with his lies is himself. When Mims is killed (and you really feel he deserves it...), Mrs. Mims and Brennan (Randolph Scott) become captives while the bandit/murderers wait for the reward money to be brought. They must outwit their captors by any means possible. The bandits will kill them as soon as they get the reward. Scott tells Doretta she must be on her guard, be strong and take her chance when it comes, for there won't be another. In their conversations, it becomes clear that Doretta knew her husband was a louse, but thought that he was her only chance for a different life. Being an ugly woman, she jumped at the only offer to come her way. During the course of their captivity, Doretta finds strength, overcomes her fear, and becomes more womanly and beautiful by realizing her own potential. She and Scott manage to outwit the men by separating them and playing on their weaknesses. But more importantly, Doretta becomes self-reliant and able to stand tall - proud of herself at last. The two younger men, it turns out, are no more than animals, having been orphaned early in life. They kill and rob because they simply don't know any better. Frank Usher (finely played by Richard Boone) is another story. His mysterious past seems similar to Scott's. He chose a life of crime rather than ranching. We don't exactly know why, though he says that circumstances led him to it. He is not one to lie, even despises it, so he doesn't pull any punches. He is the most well spoken character in the film, and he just might be the most sympathetic villain I have seen, even more so than Glenn Ford in 3:10 to Yuma (Both films were written by Elmore Leonard and produced in 1957). Anyway, Boone just steals the picture, and Leonard himself said that of all the actors in the movie, he alone got the line readings just the way that Leonard heard them in his head when he wrote the story. We know that Scott and Boone will face off - which one will win depends on the psychology of each man. This western seems to be about underestimating - underestimating yourself, or your opponent. Scott is underestimated from the beginning of the picture, and ends up winning the day and the girl, mostly due to his belief in himself and his bright outlook on life. As he tells Doretta at the end of the film, "Cmon, now. Don't cry. It's gonna be a nice day." Boetticher is quickly becoming my second favorite western director, right after John Ford himself. Now, granted, I haven't seen a lot of westerns, so this high regard is not so very much. But I love the way things are thought out in his westerns. Every character gets his scene, just like in Ford's films. The mise en scene is invisible, I don't notice camera angles or lighting. The movies just make total sense visually. They look like simple B westerns, but something is going on here that is not simple. Much is unspoken. The major ideas are brought out simply, and with great mystery. It holds my attention while I wait to see what each film is ACTUALLY about. Hidden meanings, plot twists, but with a simple veneer of common sense are what make these movies worth watching.

Mabel Normand:

eanm - El Kabong counts! You are posting some lovely pics here. And who would've thought John Payne had a body like that.....? Katy Jurado:

FF- thanks for posting this very informative piece....

Dr Teeth:

Oh I will. I just have bruised pride. There's nothing like knowing that the way you feel is your own fault. We are taking down the Christmas tree today, and consolidating the four boxes of decorations hopefully into two..... so I will be in and out of TCM all day....

No, I haven't had a chance to go on TCM boards proper. I have just been going through my email and have been in and out all morning.... I feel like I have a hangover this morning, only I didn't do any drinking.... unless you count sparkling grape juice. But I feel like this: I think I just ate too much prepackaged junk food. I knew I should have made my own snacks last night, instead of buying frozen tacquitas and mozzarella sticks.....

Tales of Hoffman is going to be on - -awesome! I haven't seen it in years, and I remember liking it very much as a young adult.

It's super, Mica. I have only read about a third so far, but it is very interesting..I expect to finish today or tomorrow.

Hey, Happy New Year! I just watched David Wayne on the Twilight Zone in Escape Clause..... it was super. Wayne is a man who cannot die....it was one of the "funny" ones..... That second video - seniors invade Miami was a riot! Here you go - the perfect summer home: Harlech Castle and Beach

Oh man, Kathy! I am so laughing at the "tale of the groceries".... and I sooo understand! Andrew beat me to the laundry folding later yesterday morning, too. He was taking Alice's clothes and sorting them into piles on her bed. I gently explained (really) that short sleeves and long sleeves go in separate piles because they go into separate drawers in the dresser. He got all irritated and said he was just going to do it his way. I said that he was making extra work for someone (who could that be?) and it would be easier if he just left them in the basket.... no such luck. He has to make every chore into 4 or 5 steps instead of just one - putting stuff AWAY...... HA! If you are raising a psycho...I am raising a " bossy busybody" because whenever mine watches with me she stands in front of the tv and yells at everybody to tell them "Stop Fighting PEOPLE!!" We only saw the end of TQM today...but she just stood there and said "John Wayne..you DO NOT hit that man!" And then she yelled at Red Will...."MAN!! Stop fighting with John Wayne...that is NOT nice!" She will likely be a chip off the old "Peacemaker" block someday... :-) That's so funny! Alice just kept saying, "Uh-oh, UH-oh, UH-OH!" as the fight progressed.... she thought it was great that they had a drink in the bar, then went back to fighting..... though she is really noticing the drinking and was quite disapproving about most of it... I actually noticed the man who stands doing nothing at the widows office! It's amazing, because I spent the entire movie looking at the periphery characters.... I just thought that was so funny, he just stands, no words.... nothing. What a hoot that movie is! It really tickled me this time through...... Re: *They Were Expendable* - The only reason I notice "filmmaking" is when I can't watch the movie as I would like to.... either I came in late, or I have to watch with the sound off, or I am watching from too far away to get into the plot, or people keep interrupting..... With TWE, I simply couldn't hear the dialogue.... so I concentrated on the picture. I have been reading George Stevens, Jr.'s book, *The Great Moviemakers of Hollywood's Golden Age* which I highly recommend. I got it from Andrew for Christmas ( he really did a good job getting me this one). Stevens uses interview material and seminars that the famous directors, cameramen, and directors of photography participated in. So basically you are getting a director's own take on how they made films.... each personality (Raoul Walsh, Howard Hawks, James Wong Howe, Frank Capra, Rouben Mamoulian, George Folsey, etc....) is given about 20 pages. it's a wonderful book, though I would have loved it if he had included longer interviews..... So far, Capra has been the most well spoken, Rouben Mamoulian the most eloquent and esoteric ( I would have loved to meet him), and Raoul Walsh had the best stories. I would probably have fallen hard for Walsh, he is just so COOL. James Wong Howe and George Folsey made me realize that camera work is very complicated, way more difficult than any other job in movies (I think). The cameramen are dealing with light, color and contrast, which may be fleeting. They work with the giant lighting instruments (candles) as well as technical aspects of the camera and the light meters themselves. but mainly they said you just have to have a feel for it to do it right. If you are any good, you don't need a light meter (!) All the directors have a sort of forceful braggadocio. I think it was Mamoulian who said that what makes a director interesting is his difference from other directors.... Many of them said this is what is wrong with Hollywood today... or actually circa 1970... Everyone is trying to copy the new hot style. Mamoulian also said that what is popular is what's _different_, and that you cannot ever guess what an audience will want, so you must do what interests you, even if it isn't "popular". It may become the next big thing.... Each of them said that the most important thing for a director to have is a different viewpoint. He must listen to all opinions, then be completely unafraid to make his OWN decision. One viewpoint, that's it. They have all said that they do all the planning before they ever set foot on a soundstage or location. They had to, due to financial concerns. Each of them had the basis for how the movie would look and play in their head, for any given scene. It's very interesting to see all the interviews side by side so you can compare them. Anyway, the book got me thinking about the process of directing and acting. Boy, I wish I had been a fly on the wall when most of these movies were made......

the kitty on the left looks like a ghost of the one on the right.... now everything is creeping me out......

Thanks, Kath! I also discovered another character I'd never noticed before today. As the fight starts out, there is a man (English?) who sits in the pub reading his newspaper. He never looks up, never stops reading his paper, and never even seems to realize the fight is going on.... even as it swirls around him..... I love that! Happy New Year!

I love the Burgess Meredith one best too, but a close runner up is Ed Wynn in "One for the Angels"... The one I simply can't watch has a group of people in a boarding house? and some kind of global warming is happening - the earth is falling into the sun.... something like that. They just get hotter and hotter.... yikes.... too close to real life in that one ......

Kathy - Are you there? How is the QT? I hope you got to watch some TCM today....Alice watched all of *The Quiet Man* with me, and thought it was a riot. She especially loved the part where Mary Kate got dragged through the sheep poo in the field and then the big fight scene. She also thought it was funny when Mary Kate was afraid of the thunder ......Kids are so nice, aren't they? I hope I'm not raising a psycho.... Andrew and I had a fight this morning in honor of the movie. I always ask him PLEASE not to help me with the laundry. Here's why: today he tried to "help" me by putting away a huge pile of clothes I had laid out on the bed (I have to preface this by saying that he only helps with housework when he is exasperated at something I haven't done fast enough for his liking - today it was laundry). I had been cleaning off the deck before the snow came, making breakfast for everyone else, and trying to fold laundry and do dishes. So I go upstairs and realize that my giant pile of clothes is gone - completely missing. It turns out he hung them all back in the closet. Now this would have been great, except that I had just spent yesterday cleaning out my closet and putting the spring stuff in a pile to put into a big plastic box. Then he went downstairs to the basement and took all my separate piles of laundry and dumped them together into a BIG giant pile. He also stacked dirty laundry into a clean basket waiting to come upstairs. I must say that I felt JUST like Mary Kate Danagher at the moment.... I was livid. I screamed "DON'T help me anymore, I can't take it!" Then later, when the movie came on, I really regretted my anger. I think the movie is sort of a marriage manual. It totally struck home today anyway... how to get along with your spouse, faults and all.... So I apologized to him. I do hope though, that he doesn't "help" me again.......not for a long time. I might have to drag him through some sheep poo..... During the movie, I payed extra attention to my little *Jackie MacGowran*, who, I noticed, underplays his scenes to such a point that he almost disappears. He is extremely good at giving focus to other people - he will look straight down, or just stare at the person speaking without moving. I sure do wish he had some of that focus himself. But then I wouldn't feel so proprietary of him, as if I alone discovered him...... I also paid special attention to *Francis Ford*, who is just fantastic. I wish I had a poster of him shaking his shillelagh over his head after he is brought back from death's door - the thought of seeing the fight between Sean and Red Will is too much for him to pass up! I love that I have seen this movie enough times now that I can focus on different players each time I watch. I swore I would watch Ford's movies for Francis this time around, and he is really a fine actor, what little you get to see of him. I also almost caught a resemblance this time in one scene.... he did look like Pappy for one second..... I hadn't realized before, that at the beginning of TQM, Sean's mother says in the voice-over that she had roses in the garden when he was a boy...I think his father had given her the bushes.... it was great to see that moment and know why Sean plants the roses for Mary Kate...... I watched *They Were Expendable* mostly with the sound down low. It helped me to notice that the whole movie is filmed on different diagonals. Very interesting to me as a gardener, because the same rule works for garden design. A flower bed laid out on the diagonal is far more pleasing to the eye than one seen from straight on. You get a clear view of everything in the garden as well. Ford does this in every shot - if it is a shot of 4 men, they will be lined up on the diagonal so you can see each man, especially the faces. The boats all take off or come into port on the diagonal. People walk to and from their destinations on the diagonal. Here are some examples of diagonals used in the movie: This one uses two diagonals - the plane is one, the machine gun is another.... The men form a V with Wayne toward the back of the shot (note the scissors reinforcing the diagonal position of the men): Again, Wayne is behind Montgomery, showing his subservience to him as well as creating another diagonal line. Montgomery's right arm is in alignment: The only other shots in the movie are closeups, and Ford does this exceptionally well, saving them up for extremely emotional situations like the retirement party for "Doc". The performance that appealed to me the most this time was that of Pacita Tod-Tod as the singer in the nightclub - who gets a lovely closeup at the announcement of the bombing of Pearl Harbor .... her face registers shock, then horror and concern as the men all start leaving to go back to base. I felt that Ford was making a big statement here - that people of all nationalities worked for the Allied war effort. Fort Apache was just beautiful again. It is such a gorgeous movie and a much more interesting and historical take on the last stand than any other movie of it's time. Well, I am off to enjoy some sparkling grape juice with my family... I have snacks to get ready.... Have a Happy New Year everyone!

I'm not disputing that L.B. was a jerk, I'm just saying that I haven't read enough about him to make a judgement...... yet. I am getting more and more interested in reading about him as we go through this discussion. What would make him so disagreeable? I am very curious as to his background and life story. I do know that in some of the books I have read, he seemed to be the kind of person people despised on sight- and that he was going to be pushed out of MGM at one point right before (or maybe right after) the Gilbert/Mayer fight. He somehow managed to hang on to his position at MGM, consolidating even more power at that point.

Oh, man. That Ford clip is priceless. He is so right......

I agree with you that it was a hard read and very painful at the end of the book.... According to some sources, L. B. was quite fond of Dressler. I find his (supposed) actions to have been incredibly detrimental to her health, but I am open-minded enough to realize that one book is not enough to base my opinion on. However, much of the reason he is seen as such a demon in so many Hollywood stories is that he was management, not a friend of the worker. His bottom line was money...and getting the product out. He did have a couple higher-ups that he had to deal with as well. He was a businessman, and if that means he was awful to his employees, well, I think we have all seen a lot of that in our lives too.....

I'm sorry, FF! What a dope I am.... I keep forgetting about the actual Tom Santschi thread....