rohanaka

THIS JUST IN: A stunned public was left to wonder today as Frank Grimes was heard to say: Donovan's Reef is a good film. There is no denying that. Reaction from the crowd was a mixture of amazed silence.. and utter SHOCK. (ha!!!) So... there's NO denying it... And yet... you keep trying.... :p :p :p and

For him to kill one child and not another is inconsistent with his character I never had an issue w/ this because to me it is not so much "inconsistant" as it is just an example (at least to me) as to how far Frank travelled (into "monsterhood) in those years between when he toyed w/ "Harmonica" and left him there alive (in the WORST possible situation) and the McBain homestead. He had a LOT of killing under his belt by the time he was staring down that little boy throught the barrel of his gun, and I imagine over the years, the killing got easier and easier. I don't think MOST monsters like old Frank start out huge at the beginning but instead they develop over time. So killing a TOTALLY helpless and innocent kid became just another pull of the trigger (eventually) but I imagine he wasn't always at the level of "ruthless". PLUS... (another possible explanation is: think of how ruthless he was in leaving Harmonica alive. That to me was almost more cruel (or at least CLOSE to being as cruel) as what he did to the McBain boy. He left this teenage kid alive laying the dirt with the memory of his legs giving out from underneath his brother.... (that and the indignity of having that harmonica shoved halfway down his throat.) Just killing someone (like the little boy) was an impersonal act of a ruthless thug. But TORTURING a young teen (the way he did Harmonica) is a WHOLE other kind of ruthless. So either way (whether he was still 'growing" into the killer he would later become OR whether he just had a more "personal" reason to torture Harmonica and his brother) to me makes the fact that Harmonica did not die a reasonable outcome of events. (did any of that make sense?) ha. :-) As a side note: way back on Halloween I was giving out candy and flipping through channels on tv (in between the trick or treaters) The kidling was out w/ dad going door to door... and it was just me, the dog, and a bowl full of jolly rancher gummies.. ha. But while I was channel flipping I stopped on a film that I more or less have avoided since it came out a couple of years ago. But SOMETHING caught my eye... it was GHOSTRIDER.... and the reason I stopped for a moment to watch is because (just about the time the young motorcyclist sells his soul) in walks PETER Fonda... as the DEVIL... all done up in black... and GUESS who he was the SPITTING image of... ha. You guessed it... Dear old Dad... in Once Upon A Time in the Blah Blah Blah.. ha. Creepy and yet FITTING... because old FRANK was about as close to the devil on earth as a guy could get. I don't know if it was intentional for them to play up the resemblance or not... but having just watched DAD Fonda only a few days before happening on SON Fonda, it really caught my eye how closely they looked like one another all these years later. Wowsa.

did you notice how "western" the little town in Donovan's Reef looked I DID notice that... right down to the fountain. I just did not put it together the way you have. I remember thinking (in the past) that the "town" did not seem NEARLY so tropical as the rest of the island but did not equate it to his Westerns, per se. SHARP eye, kiddo. :-) .

ro HA! naka HA!! I like it!! :-) HOWDY there, my little OK Kid. We DO seem to have a habit of posting at the same time. It must be our "sister" intuition kicking in, ha. now I have to go back and read what you guys said about it so I can get a clearer picture Well... you have to go WAAAAYY back to the middle of October..ha. (I went back to take a look, myself because I wanted a refresher on some of the stuff I said before. JUST in case my "pepto" overdose had clouded my memory. (ha) Here is more or less where we started... but of course... it rambles on (and on) from there..ha) http://forums.tcm.com/jive/tcm/thread.jspa?threadID=133953&start=240&tstart=0 did like Robards so much, I just wish he had done more movies in which he was a nice guy. Of course, I guess he wasn't really a nice guy, but he was sympathetic. He really got to me. Did you ever see him in Parenthood? I LOVE that movie... and I think it is about my favorite role for him. He plays a "grumpy" old dad/grandpa who ends up being an alright guy in the end (underneath all that grumpiness) ha.

I wish TCM would air The Hurricane, Flesh, Arrowsmith and The Prisoner of Shark Island in a sort of mini-festival of lesser known---but excellent---Ford films. They did air most of these a couple of years ago but I'm not sure if Flesh has ever been broadcast on TCM. From your keyboard to TCM'S ears...ha. Out of all of those films, the only one I have seen is The Hurricane. Throw in The Whole Town's Talking and you get an overview of just how good he was at all sorts of genres and styles (gangster, comedy, melodrama, adventure, historical). I got to see this one several months ago. I really enjoyed it a LOT. (I liked how old Edward G got to be the good guy AND the bad guy.. all at the same time, Ha) :-) And you are right... though he likely gets"pigeonholed" sometimes for his westerns, (at least it seems like that to me) I think Ford had a MUCH wider range than most folks realize.

Can we take a poll on that one. What do people think of Dix walking off like that at the end. a) Dix left Laura Laural left Dix c) Not sure Can there be a D? ha. (as in: They both left each other) I think he left because a) he KNEW he'd gone too far and it was over. And because she was leaving him (and he realized she was right.. in terms of her needing to go) and it was over. PS, Miss Maven... nice work kid. (and wow... what a great youtube. It really does piece together the entire story so well) Edited by: rohanaka on Nov 18, 2009 11:35 AM

Hellooooooo Mrs D/D (ha) I also like the contrast between Marvin's Liberty fighting the efforts that would eventually bring in the railroad to Shinbone to Gillhooley's childish playing with a toy train: WOW I had not even THOUGHT of that... I liked all those comparison/contrasts between other Fordies that you posted... (especially Dorothy Lamour... WOW I had totally overlooked the fact that she was in both films) (PS... I love The Hurricane, by the way) (and am I reading you right... the boat was Ford's own? Wow.. it was a beauty) PS: Miss Butterscotchie... goodness, i just realized that i was really tired last night and left without saying goodnight! will you ever forgive me Mrs. Quiet Man and Scooby-doo? Well, I can't speak for Scooby, but as for ME, nothing to forgive youngun! :-) It's nice to have you here WHENEVER you can be around. :-)

Wow.. Ms Favell.. you didn't even NEED my pepto.. ha. I am glad to hear you enjoyed this film (though I can't go as far as you in liking it, myself.) I am on the "thumbs down" side for the most part, though I think there WERE some moments that I did like a bit more than Miss G did. Overall.... it just WAS NOT my cuppa tea..ha. But I am glad for YOUR sake (if you had to watch that WHOLE 14 hours.... ha) that you found it likeable. And PS... I DID watch that beginning again when it came on last night... though it gets dragged out WAY too long, I think it is my most fave part of the whole movie overall... (alas... poor Woody... and Jack Elam too... gone TOO soon..ha.) But I am with you on liking Robard's character the most... again, overall. PS Cigarjoe... interesting theory. Not sure I can go along with it, exactly.... but it WOULD make for a more interesting movie (at least to me) if that HAD been who he was and it was played up a bit more to make it clearer. PS Miss G: I wonder what movie he and the Peacemaker will align themselves with? PERISH the thought... oh, uh, I mean... FAT chance...ha.

Hiya Mrs. Doniphan/Donovan!! (ha) I love the the "strumming" music, how langorous it is Ha.. I love that you used the word "langorous" ha. :-) He was so sensitive to music, but in a very subtle way I think he did a good job of choosing music that would evoke "memories" in the viewer sometimes, possibly even about stuff that had NOTHING to do with the film but just would enhance the mood he was trying to convey instead. (ha... does THAT make sense?) I am trying to think of a better way to say it, ha. I guess what I mean is that he was good at using "mood music" to instill feelings (about the characters or situations) in the story. And you are right... he did it (very often) in a subtle way. PS: J. Palmer Cass... HA!!! Mr. Grey has yet ANOTHER new name, I love it!! ha. We use that bit around here all the time... when we see someone acting a CERTAIN way we say: "Hey... It's J. Palmer Cass.... but I think I will just call him JACK" ha. PS JACKIE (the GOOD kinda "Jack" ha.) YOU'VE never seen Donovan's REEF??? woohoo... I will look forward to hearing your comments for sure, little young'un. (and PSS.. I still have PLENTY of Pepto if you need it while you are watching Once Upon a Time in the BLAH BLAH BLAH!!... ha. GOOD luck, kid)

Howdy there, Miss G.... I also think the real heart of the story is not about Guns and Amelia, but about Amelia, Doc Dedham, and Lelani. Like in so many Ford films, it's about a broken family, only this time it moves from being broken (like the slot machine, the leaking roof, the lights, so many things get "busted" and are broken in the film) to becoming whole. Now I like that a LOT. Good call, little Missy. Not only are they like children, they are also, conversely, continuing the war that brought them together (and to Hawaii) in the first place. Notice the date of their anniversary ("21 years earlier"; 21 years previous to 1962 is...December 7, 1941.) These men, the Americans and the other military men that arrive, are in contrast to the harmonious Polynesians and the integrated Chinese. Donovan himself holds himself somewhat in between the two worlds of the white colonialists, of whom he's beneath, socially, and the locals, whom he seems to have knowledge of but no personal interraction. Doctor Dedham became fully integrated. He married the region's queen. He helps them, he doesn't sell them booze, he bandages their wounds, wounds his men and the war helped inflict and defend. Donovan is a bit of a roughneck, and I think Amelia has to arrive to bring him entirely into the fabric of this world of the world, even as she would. Notice the ending, Donovan and Amelia appear to be moving into the Doc's sprawling compound and he sold the saloon. I love that. I love it ends with a parade. I love that so many shots are framed by the two poles, the "pax poles" I've read in one place. Ford brings two "poles" of culture and attitudes together. I'll try to screencap some of this. OH MY GOLLY.... you go girl. I love these thoughts. I like how you have put Donovan in his "place". I think all three men (Doc, Donovan, and Gilhooly) were at different levels of life following their common bond (of their service in the war) and ALL three of them go through perhaps a "final" transition (into a new life) by the end of the story. You have given me a lot to think about. (in fact I want to go back and take a closer look at some of what you have mentioned here. I will look forward to your screencaps. I know as usual I'm reading WAY more into Ford than ANYONE cares to read! Too bad NOT bad, I say.. ha. Not bad at ALL!! (did I mention "you go, girl?? ha.) PS... Mr Movieman... Welcome to the chat, sir. What (if any) are some of your more fave (fluffy or NON fluffy) scenes??

Helloooooooooo Mr. Grey... Did you set a trap for me? No way. Ha. Who needs a trap when we have rope, hatpins, and entire arsenal of "persuasive" devices to keep you on your toes. ha. :-) Before I go to far into your reply to ME, I just want to say WOW about THIS (I think it was in your response to April): It is one of Duke's great strengths the way he reacts with women when it comes to humour. its not like Robert Ryan or Robert Mitchum with the macho tough guy look, even though the Duke is very much a tough guy, but he gives that unique tough guy look. he makes it different and more fun to watch, i think! NICELY said, sir. Your insight (when you WANT it to be..ha) is very keen and you have certainly hit on one of the acting "strengths" that makes the Duke so popular. Methinks you are MORE of a fan of his than you let on, sometimes. :-) At the very least you seem to see in him more than just the stereotype that so many others trip up on. He had a much wider range than a lot of folks give him credit for. (and I HAVE seen you speak highly of him and his acting ELSEWHERE, ha, so I know this is NOT a new thing for you... ha. It is just good to see you ADMIT it again..ha. Look who you're talking to! When am I short of words? Ha... true, all true. But we COULD have a contest between us to see who was the more "loquacious" ha. You or me. (I DO tend to blab a bit myself now and then) ha. I'm not a fan of Ford's "boozin' and brawlin" as comedy. I find it to be annoying. I do enjoy Ford's brand of "battle of the sexes" comedy, so that works for me Can a film with booze and brawls be see as a family film? Now I have to confess I am NOT much on "boozin'" or "brawlin" as a rule, ha. And if the fights were MEANspirited or the booze was to excess, (and the focal point of the story) I likely would not find those parts of the story nearly so entertaining. So I think it all depends on HOW the boozing and brawling is handled... and how it fits into a story. I think I mentioned in Jackies "Punch" thread that I tend to like comedy in my fight scenes.. and there is just something about the humor that goes along w/ this sort of tradition in Ford films (especially) that I DO find entertaining. Mostly because it is NOT the main focus of the story. (I am thinking of some of the other films w/ big fight scenes too, like... of course... the big BRAWL in The Quiet Man, (my favorite) but also some of those cavalry movies (Like say, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon) To me those moments are just for fun and they bring out some of the more entertaining (and possibly even some of the more endearing aspects (though that doesn't SOUND like it would make sense) of some of the characters. (and PS: my fave Ford "brawl scenes USUALLY have McLaglen in them... he was a "master" at roughhousing for laughs..ha) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW2vce5s5lE There is just something I LIKE about the way so many of them are FRIENDLY brawls.... good natured even (in a way) Now they may not start OUT friendly (like say... Red Will and Sean) but by the end of it there is mutual respect and camaraderie that just adds to the "family" aspect of his films so well. (Gee.. a bunch of friends... laughing it up as they knock each other around for fun.... hmmm.... sound like any RAMBLE/RUMBLES threads you know??? ha. Maybe THAT is why I like those fight scenes so well..ha.) If the film was more of a drama with some comedic elements, I'd like it more Now I can see that too. I think there COULD be a whole other way Ford MIGHT have taken this film and it would have been VERY moving and much more "dramatic" as you say. Why he (or the writer) went on the lighter side may be one of those "mysteries" we can only speculate about. But I don't MIND so much as you that it is more of a comedy. I think it is a heartwarming film for a LOT of the reasons you have mentioned (the "acceptance" aspect, especially) The "pax" was all right. The reason why I really like The Quiet Man is Maureen O'Hara and the dramatic, romantic side of the story. The comedy in the film doesn't do much for me. But Maureen's loving fire is mesmerizing. I also love the romantic energy between Mary Kate (Maureen) and Sean (Wayne). Ford gives us a wonderful overview of love between man and woman, from its conception to its birth. I have to agree with you on the "fire" part of Maureen in that film. She nearly set the screen ablaze...ha. And the story too, for me, was just a much better tale. And I LOVE what you have said about love's "conception and birth" VERY well, put sir. (Never ever tell me you are a "NON-romance kinda guy again..ha) So yes... TQM has a LOT more going for it (overall) than DR... but I don't really HAVE to compare them to like each one in it's own right. Doc (Warden) had to admit to his failings in front of his daughter and that's never easy. And he did trust her to accept his making mistakes and to love his other children, her very young siblings. So I guess you could say this could be even seen as a step-parent, step-child film. More acceptance. I like how they were able to erase all that lost time and just start all over again. It IS a lot about just accepting one another for who you are (and not holding grudges) in the here and now. And going back to Leilani (especially in the scene where she figures out WHY she and the other kids are getting MOVED out of their home) to me was a very powerful moment. I bet up until THAT moment, she never doubted WHO she was or where she fit in to the world around her. It is a HARD thing to learn that "hate" is out there in the world... and even harder when it invades your part of the world... (even if it is only "perceived" hate) Amelia did not REALLY have the prejudices they THOUGHT she would... but again... the fact that she MIGHT have had them is one of the sad truths that all kids have to learn eventually... sometimes the world is an ugly place. I may not be saying this well... I just know that it used to NEVER enter in to my child's mind that people might not be as kind all the time (as we are trying to teach HER to be) but as she gets older... she becomes more and more aware that mean peopld DO exist... and sometimes their "meaness" can hurt. Ok... THAT was a tangent..ha. Did not mean to meander so far... but I guess I am just thinking more "dramatic" with your mention of all the drama that COULD have been brought out more in this movie..ha. (did I mention I tend to blab a bit?? ha.) And RE: the "holiday" aspect of the story... I never really have thought of this as a "CHRISTMAS" movie... but I think it is a nice bonus that this story takes place during that season of the year. It just adds a nice layer to everything as a whole. (and PS.... I LOVE Father Cluzot... he's one of my fave characters... I found him quite endearing Edited by: rohanaka on Nov 17, 2009 11:39 AM

Hiya April, I'm sorry to hear about your spell of weather. I know that means we'll be getting it ourselves soon enough. It's been really pleasant, temperature-wise, for the last several days. I hate to let it go, I'm clinging to these temps with dear life! We had BEAUTIFUL weather several days last week. But it was NOT to last. It has definitly turned very NOVEMBER on us now (blech) Mr Grimes seems to have come up with quite a list We are going to make him WORK for this one, ha. If he is going to bash, he must BASH responsibly, ha. We need FACTS. No "glib" one liners..ha (Oh who am I kidding....ha. He is the KING of glib... This will be like pulling TEETH. ha. I have that call in to Festus even as we speak... ha)

Hello Grey Squirrel... And that's the greatest reason why anyone wouldn't like Donovan's Reef! Give me the shadows! Uh uh, buster. You can run, but you can't hide. HA. You are going to have to do better than THAT. No Duke/Ford bashing (just for the sake of bashing) allowed..ha. I poured my heart and soul out for you in those GREY GREY chats....ha. :-) You are going to have to lay it on the line and tell us WHY oh WHY you think such thoughts.... ha. Ford's boozin' and brawlin' never makes me laugh. It doesn't do a thing for me OK... I think we have a starting place here. WHAT would it have taken for you to find this film FUNNY? Or at least MORE entertaining? What was lacking in this story that keeps you from finding it enjoyable???????? And I am with April.... can you tell us what you DID like? (besides just the spanking (ha) and Jack Warden?) I didn't find the banter to be that good. It started off well, but it didn't last too long Now I readily confess that the "banter" in this is nowhere near the equal of say.... the GREATEST FILM EVER MADE... *THE QUIET MAN* :-) But I thought it was pleny entertaining and that they did a fine job of going "back and forth" w/ their "PAX". I also enjoyed how she was NOT what he was expecting (or presuming) her to be... and he was not what SHE presumed he was as well. And I thought it was an intersting commentary on human nature in general how HE was as "prejudiced" against HER as he THOUGHT she was going to be. (he presumed since she was a "Boston Blue Blood she would not have any tolerance for her father's marriage to the princess or for her siblings. I like how even the story sort of misleads you about her character at the beginning too. She DOES make you THINK she is going to be this stuffy "matron-ish" blueblood only to find out she is NOTHING like that outside that board room. He (and the other men) were just as guilty of prejudging her as they all ASSUMED she would be. Elizabeth Allen was very lovely She was lovely. And I LOVED her wardrobe and her hair. (except for her "office" clothes/hat and her first "bathing suit" ha. (and I liked her voice too) Seeing Marvin playing goofy was tough to swallow. Nah... he took all the menacing LOUD self centered, beligerant traits he used to play villians and turned it around and made them FUN instead. I thought he was very entertaining. (I LOVE the "wiseman" bit in the Christmas play) ha. Annoying! Are you kidding me???? I LOVE those two little ones...ha. SHE is so cute I almost can't stand to look at her..ha. And very endearing. And I like how he is "smitten" with Amelia when he "gets" to stay the night (at his OWN house..ha) (ha.... I wish I knew how to do Miss G's trick and make a moving picture out of those for you!! ha.) Well, except for the eldest. I liked her. And you are right, I like Lelani as well. I really like how she was portrayed as "still a kid" but coming of age too. She was very mature and responsible in her role as princess and still down to earth and a typical kid as well. I did like Jack Warden I did too. I thought he did not get as much time on screen as he COULD have, but I like how he was REAL with Amelia and more or less gave her credit for being smart enough to see how RIGHT his life was there and the GOOD he had done (even after the war) with his hospital, etc. And I like how he was the "voice or reason for the Duke and Marvin. He commanded their respect and yet was also their friend. So ok.... you promised me a RAMBLE (but I'll take a rumble if I have to, HA) Tell me MORE about what makes this movie SO bad that you score it EVEN lower than the LAST good movie you told me you hated... ha. (Poor, poor McLintock. Will I EVER get over THAT one? ha.) PS Ms G: (get that Gatling gun loaded, gal) ha. PS Miss Butterscotchie, glad to see you at the party, youngun. Did you bring your GLOVES? ha. Edited by: rohanaka on Nov 16, 2009 11:39 PM

Hey there little lady!! :-) Don't ask! Don't ask! Ha... Oh SURELY we are underestimating him.... ha. I just KNOW this will be another one of those "I didn't like it, I LOVED it" (Destry Rides Again) moments for him.... (picture me, rolling my eyes.... a LOT) ha. You chose some sensational shots, and it's just what I need to see here in grey/gray Manrattan OH, I tell you, I am NOT usually a "tropical" person..ha. But it has been SO very nasty around here the last couple of days (wet, rainy, cold... possible SNOW later on tonight... ICK!) Right now, I am in LOVE w/ that island scenery. It has put me in a much more "pleasant" mindset, just thinking about it..ha. And along with visions of the LOVELY tropical beaches, ha... after those screen caps the other day... I STILL have the theme song for this movie stuck in my head too. ha. (But I mean that in a GOOD way! (ha) :-) I'll bring the Gatling Gun Stock up on your ammo, kid...ha. I bet you will need PLENTY of rounds... ha. I bet Sweet T will join us, she loves this movie, too Goodie... I KNEW she was a smart cookie.. I hope she (and anyone else interested) will chime in. (and I also want to hear more about the BIG SCREEN showing of this one from you, too) I will look forward to seeing some GOOD rambles from the REEF!! :-) Because again, (at the risk of repeating myself..ha) WHAT'S not to like?? ha. It will feel nice getting back to hating and disagreeing with Frank Ha... well, there is THAT to look forward to as well. (Did I mention it was nice to finally be able to feel like my OLD self again...ha)

Hi there, April, if you will permit me to take a little detour here, I just wanted to bring up an old favorite of mine. I have been wading through so much ?Gray/Grey? lately I just wanted to feel a bit more like my old self again, so I finally decided to CASH IN on a LONG put off ?promise? on a ramble (rumble?) that was made to me by a prominent member of this message board who shall remain Shiftless... I mean nameless. (ha). I am finally calling in his debt. (But this is such a fun movie, I hope everyone else will chime in too) :-) I have sat on this little ?gem? for some time now, patiently biding my time, wading through POST after post of deep dark Grey-ish NOIR and Spaghetti Western FRANKISHNESS. I even went on a LONG date with Dix and Gloria to be ?In a Lonely Place? just to get my mind off of things, but THE ONLY thing I could think about was: ?With all this arguing back and forth and back and forth, WHAT oh WHAT will the GREY Dude do to my POOR beloved Donovan?s Reef??? And THEN I thought, ?What a minute. We ARE talking about DONOVAN?S REEF, here. You?ve got comedy, action, and romance (even a little ?heartstring tugging? between the Doc and all his kids) all rolled into one fun package, here. WHAT?S not to like?? I mean, after all, it?s John Wayne (directed by John FORD!!!) :-) Plus, there is shot after shot of BEAUTIFUL scenery and lots of ?swaying? palm trees to go along with the ?swaying? island music, (And for the gentlemen, there?s even all those lovely ladies in their ?swaying? island dresses) And you?ve got Lee Marvin playing it up for laughs (BIG time) In fact this is one of my all time favorite roles for him. There are even some FUN barroom brawls (filled with a lot of funny fight scenes) Not to mention three CUTE (and I mean CUTE) kids. And above all, there?s lots of fun banter back and forth leading up to the romance between the two main characters Good gravy, she even gets to get a SPANKING, for crying out loud. (knowing certain GREY parties and their sense of HUMOR regarding such things, I would think that alone would be worth SOMETHING) Well, I have MUCH more to say, but for now I will just ask again, ?What?s not to like?? :-) Oh wait, UGH, I am suddenly getting a FLASHBACK to that mudfight over MCLINTOCK! ( I guess I better go sharpen my harpoon, I mean HATPIN) Or better yet,maybe we?ll just call in FESTUS and have him turn his HAT around! (HA) We can use all the help we can GET!

and

In the above cap, Laurel tells Sylvia that she doesn't realize what he, Lochner, is doing to us, her and Dix. What does Laurel mean by this? Well first off, Mr. Grey... I just want to say again how NICE a job you have done making your case. I gotta give credit where credit is due. You truly have outdone yourself, sir. As to what Laurel means... I likely should go back and rewatch this to make sure, but I am thinking that she is sort of feeling guilty that she is having doubts now about Dix.Between the things she's seen, and the things she's heard, she is rattled and having a hard time balancing her love for Dix and her fear of him. And she is laying the blame at Lochner's feet. It is a way for her to justify the frustration and the fear she is feeling without blaming DIX. (or herself) by saying LOCHNER is the one causing all the trouble. That is just my take on it.

Hey there, youngun... What is interesting is this is the Burton I like best, the Burton I saw in The Spy Who Came in From the Cold...a very contained, controlled and inward actor...not quite so bombastic, say, as in his epics and certainly no "George" from Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? You have me... that is exactly the BURTON I am talking about when I say I am not much of a fan... I have not seen too many of his films.. so I tend to think of him as this "lush" with a big smart mouth most of the time...ha. This surprises me because, I attributed that coolness to his maturity as an actor in The Spy Who Came In From the Cold whereas, now after seeing Bitter Victory, I see from his youth he already possessed a remarkable command over himself. He is so young looking here, I can't quite equate it with his mature performance. I don't think non-Burton fans would have a problem with him in this movie, they might even be won over by him. Well now see.... maybe this IS one of those... "you've never tried a tomato" moments for me, AFTER all...ha. It has HELPED me to talk this out with you... at the very least... I will try to keep an open mind w/ him in the future... and will make a point of keeping a watch out for BV, too. I'm glad we had this little chat, kid. You (and several other folks here) have a nifty way of getting me to "expand" my movie watching horizons.... First Henry Fonda.. and then.... ha... (the list goes on and on)

Two men made of entirely different material, both conditioned in different ways by their war experiences. Hi there, April.... after reading your post and looking at the article you posted too, I went on a little search... ha.. to my USUAL source... YOUTUBE... and only found the OPENING to this film (the first seven minutes) VERY intriguing. I am not much of a "Burton" fan... (and no.. this is NOT one of those You've never TRIED a tomato/Bogart have you? moments... HA!) I just have not really liked him in too much that I have seen him in... but he DOES have a way about him... and I imagine (just judging from the first few moments) this is a film he could do very well in. I liked the set up showing the differences between the two men... their strengths and weaknesses... and how BOTH their "skills" were really needed (in one man) to do the job right.. so if I am guessing... based on all the info I have so far.. they have to work together and combine their strengths in order to pull off their assingment.. and of course given their different personalities (and the hint you have given about Ruth) they WON'T have an easy time of THAT will they??? I will keep an eye out for this one.. it sounds like it could be a nice battle of wits... and I LIKE the way (from what I have seen so far) that Ray seems to, as you say" "xray" the soul in his stories.

She loved him all the way to the end. She was not deceitful. She never wanted to hurt him. She only wanted to love him. But he just wouldn't let her. He wasn't able to because he has problems of his own. When she said, "Yesterday it would have meant something...but now..." she still loved him, I'm sure. But it was all over. Hi there Mr Laffitte... I think this is a PERFECT way to say what I have likely stumbled over to say since this all began. Nicely worded, sir. PS. MAD HAT... I LOVED the way you balanced out the two differing points of view from their own perspectives (and in some ways, you almost made them "peacefully coexist") Mad Hat Molo... The "great compromiser" (and all this time you thought it was Henry Clay") ha. (who'da thunk it?) :-) I think all this discussion has made everyone involved really take a CLOSER look at not only the story but these two characters too... and THAT is a good thing no matter what "side of the fence" you land on.

You old? Ha... yes... Well, WAY back when... (before FORTY) I used to say that anyone older than ME was old..ha. (but now there is too much evidence (and gray hair) against me to get away with it.. ha) Once you hit forty... I swear... forty hits you BACK! And you no what else?? Now that I have passed 45.. FIFTY is sounding YOUNGER and YOUNGER everyday.. ha. It's all in your perspective.. ha. :-) I heard someone younger than me say just this morning that they wish they could be 21 again... and I laughed... ha. I wish I could be 31 again... or even 41 again. (oh brother!!) ha. Somehow she still loves me. I am 3 1/2 years older than her but that doesn't matter to her. Like George Bailey I was born old. Ha.. You may have been "born old", but YOU are young at heart.. and that is what counts, my friend.

do any of those May/December romances (in any genre) make you uncomfortable I can't think of any specifically... (I will likely think of a DOZEN after I log off, ha) But I will say that I think it all has to do w/ the context. OH wait... I just thought of one.. Count Three and Pray (Van Heflin seemed WAY too old for Joanne Woodward to be believable... even after he figures out she is a GIRL and not a boy!! ha) But generally speaking.... I think it all depends on the context of the romance in the story.... and the "intentions" of the "December" man in question. (I think a "Jerry Lee Lewis" sort of romance would give me the heebie jeebies. That to me is going beyone May and all the way back to maybe MARCH or something.). But the way it is handled in this film (only implied and open to interpretation... or even more blatant as in some of the others we have mentioned here in the past... and even some of the "18th/19th Century" romance sort of tales... I think the whole "May/Decemer thing" CAN be acceptable. (again, I think it is dependent upon the context and the way it is presented) Oh.. and for the record.. the QT is 9 years ahead of me.. ha. If I had been 16 and he'd have been 25 when I brought him home... my folks would have had a conniption..ha. But I was 29 and he was almost 38 when we got engaged... so time eventually has a way of working those sorts of details out for us.. ha. And I LOVE that he is older than me now..ha. It gives me someone to TEASE about their age whenever I am feeling old myself.. ha. (What can I say, he's my favorite fogey.. ha). Only now (sadly) we are both so old... ha... people HAVE mistaken us for the kidling's GRANDPARENTS... ha. (Especially when she was a baby) Poor kid. ha. Edited by: rohanaka on Nov 13, 2009 12:15 PM

Yee haw.... the city gal's finally come out to the country... Ha. WELCOME Miss Maven!! :-) I enjoyed the movie. It had a couple of interesting twists and turns in it. The scenery...spectacular and Ruth Roman made me kind of think of an Ava wanna-be. (But I know she was her own person). What struck me the most and what I liked the best, is James Stewart?s portraying a man so doggone ornery and selfish. I am glad to hear you enjoyed this film. I think it is always fun to discover new "types" of movies (that you may have overlooked before) You are stepping into the glorious WESTERN sunrise, as I go traipsing around through the noirish DARK. ha. I have been MEANING to mention the scenery. It IS very goreous. ( l lived in Alaska for three years (early to mid 1970's) as a kid and although we were near a major city (Anchorage) and nowhere near the "wilderness", I still recall how BEAUTIFUL all the mountains and the more remote areas were. I remember traveling the Alaskan Highway in Canada on our way up there (and back again) and going through areas that were similar to some of the stuff they showed.... it was something I would LOVE to see again someday. I have to say I prefer seeing Stewart this way rather than playing aww shucks or tenderfooted tin horn.... Yeah, I like him a little scratchy. RE: Stewart's character... you MIGHT really enjoy seeing him in some of the other Mann Western films you listed at the end of your post. He tended to play darker, more complex, "ornery" (and even "scratchy") guys. (ha) Please don?t make me watch ?Destry OH you have to give that a try, sometime, kiddo. It will make you laugh, it will make you cry... it will make you want to jump up and hit someone with a big old STICK sometimes too.. ha. (the ladies DO get a little ROUGH and wild in that one..ha) But all kidding aside... it is a WONDERFUL film and it made me a MS. Dieitrich fan for SURE. I had totally discounted her as an actress until I saw that movie. Who needs the looks of Tyrone Power, the star power of Gable and the masculine bulk of John Wayne...when all you have to be is WALTER BRENNAN. TCM should consider HIM for a ?Star of the Month.? OH wow, wouldn't THAT be something, if they would do that??? He has been in SO many really GREAT movies. He is one of my all time favorite "character" actors. He can play just about ANYTHING. And he seemed to be BORN for Westerns. (especially as he got older). I think he has made a LOT of my favorite Western films all the more entertaining to me just by being in them. I don?t see them getting together. I know the movie and again, the conventions of the time lead in that direction. But something in me is just not ?feeling? that they will. Ha... well... April... it may just be you and me on this one, kid... ha. Nice to have you here in this neck of the woods, Miss Maven. Don't be a stranger, youngun!! :-)

And I hope that in the last few days I have been okay. I have found the IALP experience invigorating Hi there Pirate Dude, (ha) I just want to say that I have enjoyed reading your posts (and that I think we view a lot of the story the same way) so it has been NICE to have you "fighting" along side (and out in front) of me with the Grey Squirrel. And PS: we all slip up sometimes and say things we regret. But the Grey one is right, it is FUN to have these long drawn out "up one side and down the other" sorts of film chats. It makes for an interesting way to get to know more about our favorite films, actors, AND one another as well. PS: Squirrely.... I can't agree w/ all your points on this story... but I DO see how you reached a lot of your conclusions. Again, I say.... nice homework and screencaps, sir.... But what about: You can ask Jackie (High Noon) or Rohanaka (The Furies) or Miss G (The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance) about my disagreements with them over films. Way too short of a list, my friend.... ha. WHAT about The OxBow??? Or Once Upon a Time In the Blah Blah Blah... or how about Night and the City.... oh and most telling of all... WHAT about.... MCLINTOCK????????????????????????????? (Just to name a few more... the list of your wrong headedness goes on and ON!!)

So Chris, what do you think about Jeff and Renee as potentially a couple? The ending is rather open, but it is suggestive that REnee will get her wish and she's made it plain her wish is JEFF Hey there little lady, I am waiting on the edge of my seat to see what the Movieman is going to say, but will add my two cents for now: I ALWAYS wanted them to get together. (In fact, I wanted him to have one of those "eye opener" moments and see her for a young woman instead of just a kid, but I don't know if he QUITE gets there) To me, the ending seems to all but "SHOUT" that they would be together someday in the future... (as the two of them stand there together, overlooking that bell on his saddle, recalling Brennan's story about why he gave Jeff the bell in the first place, etc) It is like the tidy little bow that ties up the "what's next?" for both of them at the end of the movie. (or maybe that is just my wishful thinking, "sappy-happy ending" girl that I am, ha) As for Ronda, I like her personality, but I really do not like her for Jeff. I know HE likes her and I know why, too, but in the long run that wouldn't work. I think Ronda interests Jeff physically and she is exciting, but she would not bring out the best in him---the worst, in fact, is what she'd cultivate I think and eventually they would be more like two business competitors, each struggling for supremacy over the other, than a couple. Hey then, we are not so far off from one another, then. I think you are right, too, about her being his "wrong turn". (yet another reason I think he and Renee will someday be a couple) Renee represents the 'right turn'. I feel like I may be all alnoe in liking Jeff and Renee as a couple, just because she's so young. I don't think her youth is much of an issue, at least not in that setting I think she is not so young as she seems, too. Now I am not saying she's and OLDIE (like say... ME) ha. But I don't think she's a teenager either. (at least not an "under 18" teen. (This reminds me of all those OTHER "older" gunslinger/ younger woman" chats we've had in the past... ha. Rio Bravo, High Noon, etc) I think in the day this film was made, it was VERY easily accepted that someone her age could be a love interest for someone in his age range. (And I am SURE back at the time this story takes place she would have been an acceptable age) Times change, and attitudes about such things are funny. They vary sometimes depending only on the circumstances. I think if she were like say "Maddie's" age (in True Grit) then she might have been "too young" for sure. But I think Renee was a bit older than that.. at LEAST 18 or maybe even slightly older... (but not likely out of her very early 20's at most). At any rate, I just don't have any issues w/ her being young, because again, I don't think she was TOO young for him. (At least as far as this story and this situation are concerned, anyway) Ha... now if she were the KIDLING (at say, 19 or 20 yrs old) ... ha... and one day she brought home this older, weathered looking cowboy.... ha... now THAT would be a different story altogether... HA!!! :-) What can I say... it is a MOM thing, Ha!